A direct comparison: Imran Khan's Pakistan versus Virat Kohli's India

[Junaids]

In other threads there are active arguments as to which is the greatest Asian Test team of all time.

For those of us who consider it to be Imran Khan's Pakistan after her returned to the captaincy in 1985, we tend to value undefeated series and away results most highly, especially against Superpowers like the GOAT West Indies team. For me a drawn series with the West Indies was worth ten times as much as a series win over Australia.

For those who opt for Kohli's India, there tends to be a belief that the sign of a strong team is winning convincingly at home.

So I have decided to tabulate their respective results against their four strongest rivals, and you can decide.

Pakistan 1985-92 at home
Drew 1-1 with the West Indies
Drew 1-1 with the West Indies
Beat England 1-0 (without Imran)
Beat Australia 1-0 (without Imran)
Drew 0-0 with India

Pakistan 1985-92 away
Drew 1-1 with the West Indies
Won 1-0 in England
Won 1-0 in India
Lost 1-0 in Australia

HOME: Played 5 series, Won 2, Drew 3, Lost 0
AWAY: Played 4 series, Won 2, Drew 1, Lost 1
OVERALL: Played 9 series, Won 4, Drew 4 Lost 1
Using the 2 points for a win and 1 for a draw which prevailed at the time, Played 9 series, 12 points.

India under Kohli at home
Beat Australia 2-1
Beat South Africa 3-0
Beat England 4-0
Beat New Zealand 3-0

India under Kohli away
Lost 2-0 in Australia
Won 2-1 against an under-strength Australia
Lost 4-1 in England
Lost 2-1 in South Africa
? in New Zealand

HOME: Played 4 series, Won 4 series
AWAY: Played 4 series, Won 1 series, Lost 3 series
OVERALL: Won 5 series, Drew 0 series, Lost 3 series
Played 8 series, 10 points.

I guess which team you consider the stronger depends upon two main things.

Firstly, do performances against the GOAT West Indies team count for more than Test performances against Haseeb Hameed or Aaron Finch?

Secondly, do home wins outweigh away defeats? I was brought up to view the summit of the Test cricket world as being like being a heavyweight champion of the world - being unbeaten, or beaten as rarely as possible - counts most. It didn't matter how many Mexican roadsweepers an up and coming boxer beat on the way to the top, what counted was not losing. Which is why Mike Tyson is remembered more for James "Buster" Douglas and Evander Holyfield than he is for demolishing Michael Spinks.

 

[Romali_rotti]

In other threads there are active arguments as to which is the greatest Asian Test team of all time.

For those of us who consider it to be Imran Khan's Pakistan after her returned to the captaincy in 1985, we tend to value undefeated series and away results most highly, especially against Superpowers like the GOAT West Indies team. For me a drawn series with the West Indies was worth ten times as much as a series win over Australia.

For those who opt for Kohli's India, there tends to be a belief that the sign of a strong team is winning convincingly at home.

So I have decided to tabulate their respective results against their four strongest rivals, and you can decide.

Pakistan 1985-92 at home
Drew 1-1 with the West Indies
Drew 1-1 with the West Indies
Beat England 1-0 (without Imran)
Beat Australia 1-0 (without Imran)
Drew 0-0 with India

Pakistan 1985-92 away
Drew 1-1 with the West Indies
Won 1-0 in England
Won 1-0 in India
Lost 1-0 in Australia

HOME: Played 5 series, Won 2, Drew 3, Lost 0
AWAY: Played 4 series, Won 2, Drew 1, Lost 1
OVERALL: Played 9 series, Won 4, Drew 4 Lost 1
Using the 2 points for a win and 1 for a draw which prevailed at the time, Played 9 series, 12 points.

India under Kohli at home
Beat Australia 2-1
Beat South Africa 3-0
Beat England 4-0
Beat New Zealand 3-0

India under Kohli away
Lost 2-0 in Australia
Won 2-1 against an under-strength Australia
Lost 4-1 in England
Lost 2-1 in South Africa
? in New Zealand

HOME: Played 4 series, Won 4 series
AWAY: Played 4 series, Won 1 series, Lost 3 series
OVERALL: Won 5 series, Drew 0 series, Lost 3 series
Played 8 series, 10 points.

I guess which team you consider the stronger depends upon two main things.

Firstly, do performances against the GOAT West Indies team count for more than Test performances against Haseeb Hameed or Aaron Finch?

Secondly, do home wins outweigh away defeats? I was brought up to view the summit of the Test cricket world as being like being a heavyweight champion of the world - being unbeaten, or beaten as rarely as possible - counts most. It didn't matter how many Mexican roadsweepers an up and coming boxer beat on the way to the top, what counted was not losing. Which is why Mike Tyson is remembered more for James "Buster" Douglas and Evander Holyfield than he is for demolishing Michael Spinks.

Imran drew the series in WI against the side that had no Viv Richards, Malcolm Marshall I believe ?. So if you are going to say Australia was under strength vs Kohli's India, well then same applies to Imran..

 

[Junaids]

Imran drew the series in WI against the side that had no Viv Richards, Malcolm Marshall I believe ?. So if you are going to say Australia was under strength vs Kohli's India, well then same applies to Imran..

No, that's incorrect. You are referring to the 1987-88 series.

Richards and Marshall missed the First Test at Georgetown which Pakistan won by 9 wickets.

A few months ago we finally saw coverage of the final day at Barbados uploaded to a well-known video-hosting website, which confirmed that the West Indies 2 wicket victory was achieved due to hometown umpiring (like so many of Pakistan's victories in the era immediately prior to that).

1986-87 Pakistan 1 West Indies 1
Richards averaged 35.00 with the bat
Marshall averaged 16.62 with the ball

1987-88 West Indies 1 Pakistan 1
Richards averaged 69.50 with the bat
Marshall averaged 18.93 with the ball

1990-91 Pakistan 1 West Indies 1
Richards did not play - Lara had arrived
Marshall averaged 27.66

 

[Romali_rotti]

No, that's incorrect. You are referring to the 1987-88 series.

Richards and Marshall missed the First Test at Georgetown which Pakistan won by 9 wickets.

A few months ago we finally saw coverage of the final day at Barbados uploaded to a well-known video-hosting website, which confirmed that the West Indies 2 wicket victory was achieved due to hometown umpiring (like so many of Pakistan's victories in the era immediately prior to that).

1986-87 Pakistan 1 West Indies 1
Richards averaged 35.00 with the bat
Marshall averaged 16.62 with the ball

1987-88 West Indies 1 Pakistan 1
Richards averaged 69.50 with the bat
Marshall averaged 18.93 with the ball

1990-91 Pakistan 1 West Indies 1
Richards did not play - Lara had arrived
Marshall averaged 27.66

So Pakistan won the test match that Viv and Marshall did not play and could not win any when they did play in WI. Since we are talking series wins here, Pakistan under Imran had not won a series in WI during that era, they got a break in the first test when 2 of their triumph cards were not playing .

 

[Bhaag Viru Bhaag]

Kindly compare Imran's team with Ganguly's team.

 

[Junaids]

So Pakistan won the test match that Viv and Marshall did not play and could not win any when they did play in WI. Since we are talking series wins here, Pakistan under Imran had not won a series in WI during that era, they got a break in the first test when 2 of their triumph cards were not playing .

That West Indies team was the greatest Test team the world has ever seen.

They didn't lose a series to ANYONE for 20 years, from 1976 to 1995, except for a single 1 wicket defeat to New Zealand or, to be precise, to New Zealand's star performer, Umpire Fred Goodall, who for his preposterous decisions was barged by Colin Croft and provoked Michael Holding into kicking over the stumps.

Of course Pakistan didn't beat the West Indies - although the video footage suggests that in 1987-88 they actually did.

By way of comparison, in the same time period, these were the series results of Australia, England and Pakistan against the West Indies:

Australia: lost 3-0, lost 3-1. lost 3-1
England: lost 5-0, lost 5-0, lost 4-0.
Pakistan: drew 1-1, drew 1-1, drew 1-1

 

[Slim]

Kohli's team is no match to Imran Khan's Pakistan which is the undisputed GOAT Asian team.

 

[Mesozoic]

As I've said many times before, this Kohli led team is nothing compared to the Dravid/Dhoni's Indian team from 2007-11, who were undisputed GOAT Asian test team.

That team won in England (2007), New Zealand (2009), drawn a series 1-1 against an ATG level SAF team (2010-11) and pushed the GOAT Australian team of 2008 to the brink (1-2) and could have probably won the series if not for umpiring blunders.


Kohli's team has achieved nothing away from home apart from beating a weak Aus team.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

It's extremely hard to compare teams from different eras. I haven't watched Pakistan of IK play so I won't bother to comment about them.

Indian team (in tests) is the #1 for two main reasons:

1. All other teams have declined (not Indian team is fault tho)
2. They don't play against Pakistan (again, for the sake of this thread, not Indian team's fault)

Once you get VK and Pujara out their batting crumbles, most of their players are glorified FTBs and immediately get exposed, and that's an undeniable fact.

Contrary to most people here, I still rate their bowlers high. Shami, Bumrah and Ishant (Ishant of last few years) are world class, and that's an undeniable fact backed by recent stats.

PS: they're lucky Ashwin was never tested and visitors to India struggle against Jadeja's darts

PS#2: For me Australia are the best team of our era.

 

[Hasan123]

After this defeat it is fair to admit that this Indian team is not the 3rd greatest test team after the great West Indies and Australian sides. They probably aren't even the best Indian test team of all time. Ganguly India probably edge it because of the way they beat the great Australian team when no one else could.

 

[tyron_woodley]

After this defeat it is fair to admit that this Indian team is not the 3rd greatest test team after the great West Indies and Australian sides. They probably aren't even the best Indian test team of all time. Ganguly India probably edge it because of the way they beat the great Australian team when no one else could.

if kohli can draw he series vs n.z and draw or win away in australia again then they are easily 3rd if not second.

gabguky's india is probably the GOAT Asian team of all time for now.
But neither ganguly's or imran's team could dominate at home like Virat's india.

 

[Last Monetarist]

if kohli can draw he series vs n.z and draw or win away in australia again then they are easily 3rd if not second.

Trying to determine the second best team in the history of the game through the result of a single test match is atrociously abysmal.

This Indian team is nowhere near the ATG Australian or West Indian sides, nor is it better than Graeme Smith's South Africa side from 2008-13.

 

[globalcitizen]

Imran had only 1 series win away against the England 1-0 in a 5 match series. And kohli won Australia series 2-1
So nothing between them as captains

And I am applying pp logic;
Thou shall not consider Home wins.
Thou shall not consider Away wins against non sena teams.
Thou shall not consider Away wins in batting conditions especially if u won the toss.
Thou shall not consider away wins if pitch is not green or starts turning a bit

So imran and kohli are equal in their performances. Atleast kohli took the team to #1

 

[Mamoon]

It is convenient for you to ignore Imran’s Pakistan losing a Test in Sri Lanka in 1985-86 and drawing the series 1-1, but we cannot ignore it to support your disingenuous, comically biased argument.

Sri Lanka won only 2 Test matches in the 1980s. 1 against a terrible Indian side, and 1 against the so-called GOAT Asian Test team.

Losing to Sri Lanka in the 1980s is equivalent to losing to Afghanistan today. No wonder Imran stopped playing against minnows after that humiliation.

Kohli is a greater Test captain and there is no doubt whatsoever. Imran’s Mickey Mouse tally of 14 Test wins does not merit discussion with Kohli, who is well on his way of surpassing G. Smith as the most prolific Test captain of all time.

The idea that Imran captained in a draw-orientated era does not hold up against facts because although it was a draw-oriented era, Imran lost matches almost as frequently as Kohli.

If it is easier to win matches in a result-oriented era, then it is also harder to lose matches.

Imran in a draw-oriented era:

48 matches, 8 defeats

Kohli in a draw-oriented era:

54 matches, 11 defeats

In spite of playing in a draw-oriented era, Imran lost a match every 6 matches, while Kohli loses a match roughly every 5 matches in a result-oriented era.

Now let’s not even dare to compare the rate at which they won matches, since it will get more embarrassing for Imran than the defeat in Sri Lanka.

When it comes to tangible, hardcore facts, there is no comparison between Kohli and Imran as far as Test captaincy is concerned.

However, when it comes to intangibles, Imran is of course miles ahead of every captain that has walked the earth or will dare to walk the earth.

On a serious note, Kohli as Test captain should be compared to Lloyd, Waugh, Border, Smith etc. His team may not be the third best side ever, but it is the most successful Asian side ever and surpassed Imran’s Pakistan long ago.

Kohli might not be ahead of those names yet, but considering his achievements till now and the fact that he will lead his team for another 4-5 years, there is a clear possibility that he might surpass them.

Imran does not deserve to be compared to the aforementioned captains because he couldn’t win enough matches.

His greatest achievement is to be recognized as the greatest captain of a mediocre cricket nation that has never had the talent, skill, mentality and the infrastructure to be the world’s best team for a considerable period of time.

 

[Ab Fan]

In an era of Glenn McGrath, not sure why posters are comparing Wasim Akram and Curtly Ambrose.

While there is no doubt that the 2001-2010 Indian team is the greatest Asian side of all-time but it's interesting to note a thread on which is the second best Asian test team.

 

[Junaids]

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] , what possessed you to write that?

This India team lost 4 Tests to the likes of Sam Curran and Moeen Ali. Have you any idea what Richards and Marshall would have done to them?

And your endless references to a single lost Test in Sri Lanka when Wasim Akram was 18 and Waqar Younis was yet to debut grate.

People keep talking about the India of Tendulkar, Dravid, Kumble and Srinath. But they lost 2 home Tests out of 3 to Pakistan in 1999.

Any given team has a beginning, a middle and an end to its era. I would argue that the drawn series in Sri Lanka in 1985-86 is what forced Imran to dump the likes of Mohsin Khan at the first possible opportunity, and led him to blood the likes of Ijaz Ahmed, Waqar Younis, Mushtaq Ahmed, Aaqib Javed, Moin Khan and Zahid Fazal at younger and younger ages.

It’s also why he brought in Saleem Yousuf to toughen the team up. His wicketkeeping was almost as bad as Moin Khan’s, but his gutsy batting set up the drawn series in the Caribbean two and a half years later.

Sometimes it’s a bad performance (preferably in a Test, not a series) which is the impetus for change, and improvement. To write off a team on the basis of an early performance which led to change is insane.

 

[Forward Defensive Push]

Futile to compare the great Pakistan team with this stupid Indian team that can’t win anything overseas. Disgraceful and disrespectful towards Imran who was a bigger cricketer and leader.

 

[Manunited18]

As I've said many times before, this Kohli led team is nothing compared to the Dravid/Dhoni's Indian team from 2007-11, who were undisputed GOAT Asian test team.

That team won in England (2007), New Zealand (2009), drawn a series 1-1 against an ATG level SAF team (2010-11) and pushed the GOAT Australian team of 2008 to the brink (1-2) and could have probably won the series if not for umpiring blunders.


Kohli's team has achieved nothing away from home apart from beating a weak Aus team.

A sensible post

 

[Junaids]

Just to build on my previous point.

Imran’s team which lost a Test in Sri Lanka in 85-86 had Zulqarnain as its wicketkeeper. Wasim Bari has only just retired, and runs from the tail were still considered a luxury.

Imran changed that, by replacing him with Saleem Yousuf at 8, allowing Wasim Akram to bat at 9 and Abdul Qadir at 10.

Just eight months later, in the Faisalabad Test the Windies bowled Pakistan out for 159, only for the 20 year old Wasim Akram to take 6-91 to bowl the West Indians out for 248. Pakistan fell to 124-4 - effectively 25-4 - but then Saleem Yousuf hit 61 and Wasim Akram hit 66 to set the West Indies a target of 240 to win. 18 overs later they ended the day on 43-9 and the rest was history.

That Pakistan victory was Born in Colombo. The defeat by which [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] condemns that team was actually the catalyst for its strengthening.

By the time Pakistan arrived in the West Indies in the Spring of 1988 - just over two years after Colombo - Imran had gone a step further. Now Ijaz Fakih was his fourth bowler, so that Wasim Akram dropped to Number 10 and Abdul Qadir became the Ultimate Number 11.

In the Second Test, with Pakistan 1-0 up this tail allowed Pakistan to chase 372 to win the match, the series and the world championship from 280-5 when the final hour started. And even though wickets fell, that tail allowed them to survive even though the 9th wicket fell at 341-9 with five balls to go.

Again, that opportunity doesn’t just show why draws can be so precious, but also just how much Imran Khan learned the lessons of Colombo.

 

[Rudi hater]

One apprent comparrison is on personal level too, Imran Khan never showed emotion like Kohli does. He does come across a child like very unlike Imran and Dhoni.

 

[tyron_woodley]

GOAT away Asian team of all time is undoubtedly ganguly's india from 2006-2011.

GOAT home bullies of all time is Virat's india. No one beats Virat's india at home.

 

[tyron_woodley]

If kohli focused less on t20, he would be more dominant away from home as well.

past era Teams don't play as many games across formats. Huge factor that's ignored. Virat in particular is asked to tour on a consistent basis due to amount of money indian team generates for the rival teams.

 

[globalcitizen]

Futile to compare the great Pakistan team with this stupid Indian team that can’t win anything overseas. Disgraceful and disrespectful towards Imran who was a bigger cricketer and leader.

Neither did imran win anything away just 1 test against England to win series?

 

[Junaids]

If kohli focused less on t20, he would be more dominant away from home as well.

past era Teams don't play as many games across formats. Huge factor that's ignored. Virat in particular is asked to tour on a consistent basis due to amount of money indian team generates for the rival teams.

Past era Indians may not have.

But I grew up in the 1970’s. Imran Khan or Andy Roberts didn’t just have a domestic season.

They had 16 x 3 day County Championship matches (Friday, Saturday, Monday) and in between on Sunday they had a weekly John Player League 40 over match.

Plus the 60 over Gillette Cup.

Plus the 55 over Benson and Hedges Cup.

80 full days of cricket in England, plus domestic cricket plus international duty.

And in 1977 this was followed by Packer: the most intense and highest quality cricket ever played.

Modern players could not even conceive of such a workload.

 

[Titan24]

Imran drew the series in WI against the side that had no Viv Richards, Malcolm Marshall I believe ?. So if you are going to say Australia was under strength vs Kohli's India, well then same applies to Imran..

If we are talking about missing players how can we ignore Smith and Warner missing when India won in Aus which is probably India’s biggest overseas achievement in some years. If we exclude that, there isnt much to show in SENA.

 

[Bewal Express]

Neither did imran win anything away just 1 test against England to win series?

Draws were much more common in those days. He beat an England team that had just won the Ashes in Australia and the umpiring at the Oval in 87 wasnt the best to deny PK victory.

 

[DRsohail]

It is convenient for you to ignore Imran’s Pakistan losing a Test in Sri Lanka in 1985-86 and drawing the series 1-1, but we cannot ignore it to support your disingenuous, comically biased argument.

Sri Lanka won only 2 Test matches in the 1980s. 1 against a terrible Indian side, and 1 against the so-called GOAT Asian Test team.

Losing to Sri Lanka in the 1980s is equivalent to losing to Afghanistan today. No wonder Imran stopped playing against minnows after that humiliation.

Kohli is a greater Test captain and there is no doubt whatsoever. Imran’s Mickey Mouse tally of 14 Test wins does not merit discussion with Kohli, who is well on his way of surpassing G. Smith as the most prolific Test captain of all time.

The idea that Imran captained in a draw-orientated era does not hold up against facts because although it was a draw-oriented era, Imran lost matches almost as frequently as Kohli.

If it is easier to win matches in a result-oriented era, then it is also harder to lose matches.

Imran in a draw-oriented era:

48 matches, 8 defeats

Kohli in a draw-oriented era:

54 matches, 11 defeats

In spite of playing in a draw-oriented era, Imran lost a match every 6 matches, while Kohli loses a match roughly every 5 matches in a result-oriented era.

Now let’s not even dare to compare the rate at which they won matches, since it will get more embarrassing for Imran than the defeat in Sri Lanka.

When it comes to tangible, hardcore facts, there is no comparison between Kohli and Imran as far as Test captaincy is concerned.

However, when it comes to intangibles, Imran is of course miles ahead of every captain that has walked the earth or will dare to walk the earth.

On a serious note, Kohli as Test captain should be compared to Lloyd, Waugh, Border, Smith etc. His team may not be the third best side ever, but it is the most successful Asian side ever and surpassed Imran’s Pakistan long ago.

Kohli might not be ahead of those names yet, but considering his achievements till now and the fact that he will lead his team for another 4-5 years, there is a clear possibility that he might surpass them.

Imran does not deserve to be compared to the aforementioned captains because he couldn’t win enough matches.

His greatest achievement is to be recognized as the greatest captain of a mediocre cricket nation that has never had the talent, skill, mentality and the infrastructure to be the world’s best team for a considerable period of time.

Comparing era of t20 with just one or two decent test batsman per team with the one with high profile batting and players with patience to play long innings.

 

[Bilal7]

Imran's great battles with the greatest cricket team of all-time are enough to put him in the discussion of the greatest captain of all-time.

Kohli can lay claim to achieving nothing similar. He's been playing in an era where cricket as a sport, and especially the test format, has declined massively in popularity. This has resulted in weaker test teams across the board that have fallen prey to India in India. Despite this being an era of weaker teams, Kohli's India haven't won much away from home. Their greatest accomplishment being a close series victory against a seriously depleted Australian side.
[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] - Maybe we could do a direct man-to-man comparison of the two teams and try to figure out how many members of each side will make a combined XI?

 

[Waleed93]

Drawing 3 Test series against the GOAT Test team of all-time deserves a lot of appreciation, especially at a time when the rest of the world was struggling to even face them. This achievement is probably the biggest highlight of Imran the cricketer after the 1992 WC win.

Kohli's biggest series win is the one he won against a Warner/Smith-less Australia. However, his dominance at home is unmatched.

Imran still ahead for me.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

ITT: some mentally scarred individual displaying blatant anti IK agenda.

Massive lols at downplaying IK's worth as a cricketer. The guy averaged a whopping 50 when batting and 19 when bowling for a decade. Burn

 

[happydavy]

So Pakistan won the test match that Viv and Marshall did not play and could not win any when they did play in WI. Since we are talking series wins here, Pakistan under Imran had not won a series in WI during that era, they got a break in the first test when 2 of their triumph cards were not playing .

Not just Richards and Marshall, the only test Pakistan won against WI in WI, which few PPers keep tom toming about was against a WI team where three of the bowlers had less than 10 match test experience. And for the ones they lost, there is the excuse of umpiring conveniently forgetting that half of home wins was thanks to Shakoor Ranas and like

 

[happydavy]

ITT: some mentally scarred individual displaying blatant anti IK agenda.

Massive lols at downplaying IK's worth as a cricketer. The guy averaged a whopping 50 when batting and 19 when bowling for a decade. Burn

No one denies that IK was a great cricketer but it's also true that he was a very stats conscious player. Missing out tough series at home, while being captain, because "it's too hot" is an example.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Imran's great battles with the greatest cricket team of all-time are enough to put him in the discussion of the greatest captain of all-time.

Kohli can lay claim to achieving nothing similar. He's been playing in an era where cricket as a sport, and especially the test format, has declined massively in popularity. This has resulted in weaker test teams across the board that have fallen prey to India in India. Despite this being an era of weaker teams, Kohli's India haven't won much away from home. Their greatest accomplishment being a close series victory against a seriously depleted Australian side.

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] - Maybe we could do a direct man-to-man comparison of the two teams and try to figure out how many members of each side will make a combined XI?

forget about kohli's india. gabguly's india is far better than imran khan's pakistan.

 

[Ashraful_Rox]

Yeah Kohli is better than Imran Khan. He won a series in Australia which Imran never won.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Yeah Kohli is better than Imran Khan. He won a series in Australia which Imran never won.

imran khan is a greater player than kohli but kohli's team is better.

 

[globalcitizen]

ITT: some mentally scarred individual displaying blatant anti IK agenda.

Massive lols at downplaying IK's worth as a cricketer. The guy averaged a whopping 50 when batting and 19 when bowling for a decade. Burn

Congrats to you for missing whole point of this thread

 

[Junaids]

Yeah Kohli is better than Imran Khan. He won a series in Australia which Imran never won.

That’s hardly the benchmark, is it?

Firstly, Australia was not a top team in the 1980’s.

Secondly, Imran was the star fast bowler and his two tours as captain were in 83-84 when he could not bowl and in 89-90 when he was 37 years old and a part-time medium pacer.

Thirdly, Kohli beat the same under-strength Australia who has lost to Sarfraz Ahmed’s Pakistan five weeks earlier.

Surely the benchmark is Imran’s team going unbeaten in three drawn series against the greatest team of all time.

 

[Mesozoic]

Thirdly, Kohli beat the same under-strength Australia who has lost to Sarfraz Ahmed’s Pakistan five weeks earlier.

So, beating an "under strength" Aussie team, who were even missing Cummins and Hazlewood in the UAE is the same as beating them in Australia with their full strength bowling attack.

It's apparent that you have a strong bias, but atleast try to make some sense.

 

[Junaids]

So, beating an "under strength" Aussie team, who were even missing Cummins and Hazlewood in the UAE is the same as beating them in Australia with their full strength bowling attack.

It's apparent that you have a strong bias, but atleast try to make some sense.

India beat a batting order of:

Harris
Finch
Shaun Marsh
Khawaja
Handscomb
Head
Mitch Marsh

Do you really think that counts for anything?

A seven man batting order sharing a lifetime total of 16 Test centuries, missing Warner and Smith who at the time had 46 Test centuries between them.

I started the thread congratulating India on their series win, but come on! Australia were missing 74% of the available Test runs!

 

[Mesozoic]

India beat a batting order of:

Harris
Finch
Shaun Marsh
Khawaja
Handscomb
Head
Mitch Marsh

Do you really think that counts for anything?

And now you're shifting goalposts.

First tell me how Sarfraz's Pakistan beating that Australian team which was already under strength and was missing their two premier fast bowlers , that too in the UAE is same as India beating them in Aus with a full strength bowling attack ?

I don't need sleep, I need answers...

 

[Junaids]

So, beating an "under strength" Aussie team, who were even missing Cummins and Hazlewood in the UAE is the same as beating them in Australia with their full strength bowling attack.

It's apparent that you have a strong bias, but atleast try to make some sense.

And now you're shifting goalposts.

First tell me how Sarfraz's Pakistan beating that Australian team which was already under strength and was missing their two premier fast bowlers , that too in the UAE is same as India beating them in Aus with a full strength bowling attack ?

I don't need sleep, I need answers...

No.

YOU are saying that

1. Pakistan’s victory over Australia in the UAE didn’t count due to the absences of Cummins and Hazlewood,

2. India’s win in Australia did count, in spite of the absence of Smith and Warner.

 

[Junaids]

Well, barring a miracle over the next 36 hours, Virat Kohli is on the verge of surrendering forever any claim to be better than Imran’s Pakistan.

Imran’s team lost 1 Test series in 7 years.

Kohli is about to lose his 3rd series in 2.2 years.

 

[Mamoon]

Losing 2-0 in New Zealand in 2020 is infinitely less embarrassing than drawing 1-1 in Sri Lanka in 1986.

Again, no amount of excuses and justifications can negate the fact that Sri Lanka won only 2 Tests in the entire decade.

Kohli is a better Test captain than Imran and it is not up for debate.

 

[Saurav]

You can't compare across eras

In those times winning away was easier and didnt come as a surprise.

Today no team wins in unfamiliar conditions.It is an era of home dominance.And India is way ahead of others in that

I believe India's W/L ratio is better

 

[Mamoon]

Junaids had India won this series:

“India are beating an aging New Zealand side in decline.

Taylor is 36, Grandhomme is 33, Southee is 33, Wagner is 31, Boult is 30.

They have only one world class batsman in Williamson, and a couple of young batsmen like Latham, Blundell and Nicholls who cannot bat against a slip cordon.

Beating a geriatric, declining team is that is now inferior to Pakistan simply does not count”

Junaids now:

“Well, barring a miracle over the next 36 hours, Virat Kohli is on the verge of surrendering forever any claim to be better than Imran’s Pakistan.”

 

[watson367]

Kohli is a better Test captain than Imran and it is not up for debate.[/QUOTE]

Wait until Kohli captains for the same amount of years as IK. Indian team’s regression has just started

 

[Junaids]

Losing 2-0 in New Zealand in 2020 is infinitely less embarrassing than drawing 1-1 in Sri Lanka in 1986.

Again, no amount of excuses and justifications can negate the fact that Sri Lanka won only 2 Tests in the entire decade.

Kohli is a better Test captain than Imran and it is not up for debate.

I explained to you last week how the drawn series in Sri Lanka actually was the impetus for Imran to make the changes he did.

 

[Junaids]

Junaids had India won this series:

“India are beating an aging New Zealand side in decline.

Taylor is 36, Grandhomme is 33, Southee is 33, Wagner is 31, Boult is 30.

They have only one world class batsman in Williamson, and a couple of young batsmen like Latham, Blundell and Nicholls who cannot bat against a slip cordon.

Beating a geriatric, declining team is that is now inferior to Pakistan simply does not count”

Junaids now:

“Well, barring a miracle over the next 36 hours, Virat Kohli is on the verge of surrendering forever any claim to be better than Imran’s Pakistan.”

We saw in Australia that this is an ageing Kiwi team which is a shadow of its recent-past self.

The fact that India is losing to them is further evidence that this Indian team is the same one which lost 6 Tests in England and South Africa the year before last.

It’s the same Indian players making the same mistakes and losing again and again.

 

[Dingolfy]

We saw in Australia that this is an ageing Kiwi team which is a shadow of its recent-past self.

The fact that India is losing to them is further evidence that this Indian team is the same one which lost 6 Tests in England and South Africa the year before last.

It’s the same Indian players making the same mistakes and losing again and again.

Lol. Everybody is strong at their home. England lost 4-0 to the same India in India who were whitewashed in both England and Australia. They even won few tosses in that series still couldn’t beat India.

 

[Geil]

Kohli is the most successful captain or say has won most test matches with 33 wins out of 55 currently , does this mean he is an all time great Asian captain? .Now making the arguments is

if u look at stats and see the percentage of losses then there are captains like Imran Khan %L-16.66, SM Gavaskar %L-17.02, Javed Miandad %L-17.64 better captains than V Kohli %L-20 so would it be fair to term Kohli all time great as you expect an all time great to top all and every record in the book which Kohli does not have for now and he has some years of cricket still left so for now cant be All time asian great if you look at stats logic

In the current era there are very few draws to make test cricket exciting and you cant make pitches which don't give result as ICC bans the stadium if its too dangerous or too flat,

you have Reviews and neutral umpires in this era which was not there in 80s 90s and 2000s ,

quite a lot of test matches are being played right now so there comes fatigue factor with it so it is hard to maintain winning run because you are bound to lose important players to injuries,

Kohli has captained in more test matches than any of the other mentioned Asian test captain so is having more loss percentage than others

I would say one cannot compare the current era with 80s 90s 00s era because the cricket was very different back then,now was 80s 90s era cricket more difficult than current era ? I think cricketers can answer it more accurately and often when the same question is asked to them they often tell the same thing that two different eras cannot be compared

Kohli no doubt is a great Asian test captain but all time great still need to wait till his captain career ends but comparing eras is so difficult

 

[Savak]

This is a lame comparison, just look at the quality of players playing today. India has had the best stack of bowlers in their history, they beat a weak Australia at home which was no small feat but what happened against England in England and now New Zealand in New Zealand?

 

[Junaids]

Well, it’s final now. We know the answer once and for all.

Using the prevailing 2 points for a won series and 1 point for a draw of Imran Khan’s era:

IN NINE SERIES AGAINST THE TOP FOUR OTHER TEAMS

Pakistan 85-92
Played 9
Won 4
Drew 4
Lost 1
Points 12

India now
Played 9
Won 5
Drew 0
Lost 4
Points 10

QED
The argument for India has been demolished....by India.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

Well, it’s final now. We know the answer once and for all.

Using the prevailing 2 points for a won series and 1 point for a draw of Imran Khan’s era:

IN NINE SERIES AGAINST THE TOP FOUR OTHER TEAMS

Pakistan 85-92
Played 9
Won 4
Drew 4
Lost 1
Points 12

India now
Played 9
Won 5
Drew 0
Lost 4
Points 10

QED
The argument for India has been demolished....by India.

Some people live in a parallel timeline, even facts can't convince them

 

[Slog]

Kohli’s India is the 3rd of 4th best Indian side ever and not better than even Ganguly it Dhoni’s peak teams.

So then where does the joke idea of this team being better than 1980s Pakistan even become worthy of a debate lol.

As far as Indian teams are concerned
1. India 2007-2010
2. India 2001-2005
3/4. Kohli’s India / India 1970s which was briefly #1

 

[Slog]

Junaids had India won this series:

“India are beating an aging New Zealand side in decline.

Taylor is 36, Grandhomme is 33, Southee is 33, Wagner is 31, Boult is 30.

They have only one world class batsman in Williamson, and a couple of young batsmen like Latham, Blundell and Nicholls who cannot bat against a slip cordon.

Beating a geriatric, declining team is that is now inferior to Pakistan simply does not count”

Junaids now:

“Well, barring a miracle over the next 36 hours, Virat Kohli is on the verge of surrendering forever any claim to be better than Imran’s Pakistan.”

Well India did get slapped around by a side which could barely compete for a day in Australia 2 months ago...

 

[Junaids]

Well India did get slapped around by a side which could barely compete for a day in Australia 2 months ago...

I admit my error.

I thought that India would be better than this fading and elderly New Zealand team, but I overestimated India.

I should have known better: there were clues everywhere like:

England 4 India 1
England 1 New Zealand 1

 

[Phantom Menace]

Point of order.

New Zealand was a better team then England overall in the 1985-1992 period.

Results of series played between Pak and NZ in that time period were:

1985 In NZ: 2-0 NZ
1989 In NZ: 0-0 Draw
1992 In Pak: 3-0 Pak (Post Hadlee)

Beating England home and away would be removed.

New results would be

Home: Played 5 series, Won 2, Drew 3, Lost 0
Away: Played 5 series, Won 1, Drew 2, Lost 2
Overall: Played 10 series, Won 3, Drew 5, Lost 2
Using the 2 points for a win and 1 for a draw which prevailed at the time, Played 10 series, 11 points.

India have now finished their tour of NZ so they have overall: 9 series, 10 points.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Virat's india is the GOAT home/Asia bullies of all time from asia.
ganguly's india is the GOAT travelling asian team of all time or imran's. These 2 would be equal.

but neither has a win vs australia. if india beats australia or draws again then that puts Virat's india the Goat Asian team of all time again.

Winning in England would further cement their status. It's not over yet. Virat will bounce back if he truly values test cricket.

 

[Junaids]

Point of order.

New Zealand was a better team then England overall in the 1985-1992 period.

Results of series played between Pak and NZ in that time period were:

1985 In NZ: 2-0 NZ
1989 In NZ: 0-0 Draw
1992 In Pak: 3-0 Pak (Post Hadlee)

Beating England home and away would be removed.

New results would be

Home: Played 5 series, Won 2, Drew 3, Lost 0
Away: Played 5 series, Won 1, Drew 2, Lost 2
Overall: Played 10 series, Won 3, Drew 5, Lost 2
Using the 2 points for a win and 1 for a draw which prevailed at the time, Played 10 series, 11 points.

India have now finished their tour of NZ so they have overall: 9 series, 10 points.

Firstly, Imran Khan didn’t play in the 1984-85 2-0 defeat in NZ: it predates his return to the captaincy and is outside the scope of this.

Secondly, England won the 1985 home Ashes but also the 1986-87 Ashes in Australia. Whereas Hadlee retired in 1990 and NZ were then a second rate team (which failed to win its home series against Imran’s Pakistan). (England also won an away series in India in 84-85, they were a strong team.)

 

[Rudi hater]

So called world greatest team gets humiliated by an average NZ side. Ppl who were bragging about Indian side should look at this series and reassess their ranking.

 

[Phantom Menace]

Firstly, Imran Khan didn’t play in the 1984-85 2-0 defeat in NZ: it predates his return to the captaincy and is outside the scope of this.

Secondly, England won the 1985 home Ashes but also the 1986-87 Ashes in Australia. Whereas Hadlee retired in 1990 and NZ were then a second rate team (which failed to win its home series against Imran’s Pakistan). (England also won an away series in India in 84-85, they were a strong team.)

I just went by the 1985-1992 dates so if Imran wasn't back by then it is fair to not include that series. Regarding England beating Australia home and away, New Zealand also beat Australia home and away in the same period. New Zealand also beat Australia and India just 6 months before the home series that Pakistan won.

In that time frame England test record was 16-32-29 and New Zealands was 11-27-14. New Zealand had the clearly superior test record even including the slump at the end.

Facts are England were a substantially worse team then New Zealand at that time. New Zealands real low point was the middle of the 90s from about 1993 to 1998.

 

[Junaids]

I just went by the 1985-1992 dates so if Imran wasn't back by then it is fair to not include that series. Regarding England beating Australia home and away, New Zealand also beat Australia home and away in the same period. New Zealand also beat Australia and India just 6 months before the home series that Pakistan won.

In that time frame England test record was 16-32-29 and New Zealands was 11-27-14. New Zealand had the clearly superior test record even including the slump at the end.

Facts are England were a substantially worse team then New Zealand at that time. New Zealands real low point was the middle of the 90s from about 1993 to 1998.

Those are good points, but NZ was in decline from 87-88 onwards.

Funnily enough, I lived in NZ from 1994 to 1998. And they were actually stronger than they had been between Hadlee’s retirement in 1990 and my arrival in 1994.

Their problem was management. They actually took a 1-0 lead in South Aftica in 94-95, but the coach Geoff Howarth was drinking excessively and the cannabis scandal happened while he was tired and emotional in a winery.

NZ Cricket then overcompensated by bringing in the disciplinarian Glenn Turner, who promptly dumped the best three players - and only three international class ones - to teach the rest of the team a lesson.

So 94-98 was not so much a period of famine as a period of self-destruction due to terrible management.

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

No one denies that IK was a great cricketer but it's also true that he was a very stats conscious player. Missing out tough series at home, while being captain, because "it's too hot" is an example.

This made me chuckle so hard I almost spilled my food.

Pakistan has produced players who have better statistics than Khan but there's been no player who is a bigger better fighter than Khan. He used to refuse series if the opposition wouldn't send quality crickets; case in point a Hadlee less New Zealand or Australia minus the Packer stars.

Khan is a lot of things but a stat-padder is something that's not in the same galaxy as his existence. It just makes me realize the terrible perceptions of Pakistani cricketers across the border.

 

[Phantom Menace]

You make some fair points about NZ but they were still better then England.

England had a nearly 4 year stretch in the late 80s where they won 1 match out of 24 and that win was at home against minnow Sri Lanka!!

 

[Bewal Express]

Kohli is good captain but comparison him with IK is in itself a travesty. IK is an ATG Captain, Kohli is not the best of his generation.

 

[Mamoon]

Well India did get slapped around by a side which could barely compete for a day in Australia 2 months ago...

NZ is a strange case because they are extremely good in certain conditions but extremely poor in other conditions. Besides, they seem to have a mental block against the Australians as well.

NZ is probably the strongest home team after India. Apart from Australia, I don’t think any team can win in NZ right now.

 

[Mamoon]

This made me chuckle so hard I almost spilled my food.

Pakistan has produced players who have better statistics than Khan but there's been no player who is a bigger better fighter than Khan. He used to refuse series if the opposition wouldn't send quality crickets; case in point a Hadlee less New Zealand or Australia minus the Packer stars.

Khan is a lot of things but a stat-padder is something that's not in the same galaxy as his existence. It just makes me realize the terrible perceptions of Pakistani cricketers across the border.

He is not completely wrong. Imran did sit out of the Australian series because the weather in Pakistan was too hot for his highness, and his subject Miandad, who was not elite enough to be bothered by the heat, had to lead the team in his stead.

He also started to skip matches against weak teams after getting humiliated in minnow Sri Lanka in 1986, gifted them only their second Test win of the entire decade.

 

[Rudi hater]

Well done to NZ for thrashing a team that has been led by a weak man and can only play at home. Exposed and dumped.

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

He is not completely wrong. Imran did sit out of the Australian series because the weather in Pakistan was too hot for his highness, and his subject Miandad, who was not elite enough to be bothered by the heat, had to lead the team in his stead.

He also started to skip matches against weak teams after getting humiliated in minnow Sri Lanka in 1986, gifted them only their second Test win of the entire decade.

My g, we know you don't like IK so whatever he did, we know you will go against it. Kim Hughes led Australia lost 3-0 to Pak and people chanted "Kim Hughes ka urr gaya fuse".

Secondly, victory and loss are part of sports and they make sport beautiful and unpredictable and Junaids has actually written a very nice explanation directly at you for that defeat.

Stop being the hit and run poster that you have become lately, you are better than this my g.

 

[happydavy]

This made me chuckle so hard I almost spilled my food.

Pakistan has produced players who have better statistics than Khan but there's been no player who is a bigger better fighter than Khan. He used to refuse series if the opposition wouldn't send quality crickets; case in point a Hadlee less New Zealand or Australia minus the Packer stars.

Khan is a lot of things but a stat-padder is something that's not in the same galaxy as his existence. It just makes me realize the terrible perceptions of Pakistani cricketers across the border.

i think mamoon in a subsequent post has given a detailed reason for my perception. IK for his limited achievement of 14 test wins is way too overrated. You add to it the fact that he accepted tampering with ball, and his stature dropped significantly. However, i understand that most Pakistanis love IK and they want to live in this make believe world that he was leading some great team, then they can. You know brave men don't cheat, brave men don't sit out because of heat and most importantly brave men don't laugh and wave from the pavilion when their home crowd disrupts a game because they are 28/3 against their arch rivals. Small men do all of that.

Now, i hope you still have food left on your plate and you didn't spill all of it.

 

[Rudi hater]

i think mamoon in a subsequent post has given a detailed reason for my perception. IK for his limited achievement of 14 test wins is way too overrated. You add to it the fact that he accepted tampering with ball, and his stature dropped significantly. However, i understand that most Pakistanis love IK and they want to live in this make believe world that he was leading some great team, then they can. You know brave men don't cheat, brave men don't sit out because of heat and most importantly brave men don't laugh and wave from the pavilion when their home crowd disrupts a game because they are 28/3 against their arch rivals. Small men do all of that.

Now, i hope you still have food left on your plate and you didn't spill all of it.

Plate is full of ludoo after watching so called hyped team brought down to earth, but I can tell you Pakistan team of 80s would have given this Indian side hiding of its life time.

 

[tyron_woodley]

Plate is full of ludoo after watching so called hyped team brought down to earth, but I can tell you Pakistan team of 80s would have given this Indian side hiding of its life time.

no it woudlnt. They woudlnt beat ganguly's india 2006-2011, let alone this behemoth in home conditions. In Asia? no chance.

 

[Buffet]

You can't compare across eras

In those times winning away was easier and didnt come as a surprise.

Today no team wins in unfamiliar conditions.It is an era of home dominance.And India is way ahead of others in that

I believe India's W/L ratio is better

Then how come IK has like 3-4 test wins outside of Pakistan? Winning outside home was not so easy that's why IK's team had so few wins outside home despite being the sontrgest side in Pakistani history.

Yes, team was not that great and it's simply checked by peak rating of 110 points by IK's team. That tells the story. PPers overhype IK's team. With Peak rating of 110, even if you maintain it for a longer period , you will be 2/3rd best side in a specifc era.

In same token, many PPer overhype Kohli's team. It's not a great team. It's a very good team , that's about it. You can't be great team with 3-4 new batsmen.

 

[Buffet]

I can tell you Pakistan team of 80s would have given this Indian side hiding of its life time.

Like they did in home series in Pakistan against average Indian team where Manjraker scored 600+ runs? Score line was 0-0.

 

[Buffet]

IK's and Kohli's teams are good teams. Not great teams. Both gets overhyped in PP from different set of posters.

 

[Saurav]

IK's and Kohli's teams are good teams. Not great teams. Both gets overhyped in PP from different set of posters.

Which is best Asian side in your view?

I believe India od 2007-10 was better than Kohli's team

 

[Buffet]

Which is best Asian side in your view?

I believe India od 2007-10 was better than Kohli's team

Yes, Indian side of 2007-10 was a better side due to ATG batting line up, but they underachieved due to lack of good pacers except Zaheer. I will rate them as very good side, but not a great side.

SA team under smith had a better run, but still rate South African side in lower bracket than Aus and WI side.

 

[Saurav]

Yes, Indian side of 2007-10 was a better side due to ATG batting line up, but they underachieved due to lack of good pacers except Zaheer. I will rate them as very good side, but not a great side.

SA team under smith had a better run, but still rate South African side in lower bracket than Aus and WI side.

This thread is about Asian side I guess

SA side under Smith was very good

 

[happydavy]

Plate is full of ludoo after watching so called hyped team brought down to earth, but I can tell you Pakistan team of 80s would have given this Indian side hiding of its life time.

If hypothesis could bring results, then Pakistan would have won every match and every championship on this forum. Knowing IK's captaincy skills, chances are he would get pitches where this Indian team would score 600 runs follower by Pakistanis scoring another 600. A draw specialist won't give anyone hiding, you just hope considering summers are not too far off, he's available to play

 

[GoUgandaCranes]

i think mamoon in a subsequent post has given a detailed reason for my perception. IK for his limited achievement of 14 test wins is way too overrated. You add to it the fact that he accepted tampering with ball, and his stature dropped significantly. However, i understand that most Pakistanis love IK and they want to live in this make believe world that he was leading some great team, then they can. You know brave men don't cheat, brave men don't sit out because of heat and most importantly brave men don't laugh and wave from the pavilion when their home crowd disrupts a game because they are 28/3 against their arch rivals. Small men do all of that.

Now, i hope you still have food left on your plate and you didn't spill all of it.

If the love of a sportsperson is causing a negative impact on objectivity, it's a massive case of hero-worship and that's not my thing. So I'll objectively break down your argument

1. The first person to have neutral umpires in his own country.
2. Categorical mention of tampering with the ball in a COUNTY MATCH under certain circumstances.
3. IK didn't deny playing because it was too hot, but because the opposition team was devoid of worthy competition.
4. The same person asked Gavaskar to not retire before the tour because it wouldn't be fun to play without him.
5. Small people don't call back batsmen after they have been given out by the umpire even if the batsman happens to be the opposition captain of your fiercest rival country.

Khan has his flaws but being a "chota admi" isn't one of them. I can see most Indians have to hate him because he happens to be a politician now.

My food is consumed. Thanks for asking. His winning of 14 tests isn't something that I talked about at all so that's not something I need to invest my time in.