A model for fast-tracking Mohammad Zeeshan

[Junaids]

The current tour of Australia eloquently highlights the eternal problem for Asian Test teams.

They struggle to produce the tall right-arm fast bowlers which every team needs to slow the scoring rate of the opposition and to induce them to take risks.

Australia dropped James Pattinson a few years ago because at 6'1 he couldn't slow down the scoring rate like the 6'5 Hazlewood or the 6'4 Cummins. The odd short genius (Marshall, Ryan Harris, Steyn) still works at Test level, but height is an even better predictor of success in SENA than express pace is.

Pakistan has again embarked on a tour of Australia with an army of short, skiddy medium pacers. It's why Wahab Riaz tried to get Haris Rauf - who is 1 inch shorter than Imran Khan and Waqar Younis but faster than both of them - to play to introduce some menace to the attack.

Mohammad Zeeshan offers huge opportunities for Pakistan. He's 6'8 and he already bowls in the mid-130's, which is all that would ever be required of him. But more than that, if he can bowl a 6 over spell in every Test session, then Shaheen Shah Afridi can go back to bowling a single 4 over spell at 145K each session, like Mitchell Johnson, rather than a 7 over spell at 134K like he currently has to.

Imagine a Test bowling attack of a part-time spinner combined with:

Shaheen Shah Afridi - 4 overs per session at 145K
Naseem Shah - 5 overs per session at 145K
Mohammad Zeeshan - 6 overs per session at 135K
Mohammad Wasim - 6 overs per session at 140K
Part-time spinner - 5 economical overs per session.

That attack would be lethal outside Asia, and even in Asia you could just replace Mohammad Wasim with a specialist spinner.

And the purpose of Zeeshan and Wasim is to bowl spells of 6-2-12-0 that allow the skipper to rotate Shaheen and Naseem bowling shorter, faster spells.

But this requires a few things to happen:

1. Mohammad Zeeshan needs to:
a) Become a reliable Number 9 batsman, not a pinch-hitter. He needs to bat for an hour every single day in the nets.
b) Mohammad Zeeshan needs to minimize his domestic bowling in Pakistan, to avoid stress fractures on dead wickets.
c) Mohammad Zeeshan needs to be selected for all senior home and away national team series, so he spends his time bowling to the best batsmen in the country, not the worst.

I want Zeeshan to be a relentlessly accurate fast-medium bowler. Like Ambrose, McGrath, Walsh and Garner he should be bowling at paces between 130-135K, but not faster. His job is to bowl a full length that can't be driven, pulled or hooked or cut.

2. Mohammad Wasim needs to:
a) Become a proper Number 8 batsman, which means playing domestic cricket batting at Number 4 or 5, and not bowling more than 10 overs per day in domestic cricket.
b) Get an English contract to really work on his all-round skills.

And they both need intensive English tuition and cultural training so that they can avoid the kind of embarrassment that both Shadab Khan and Shaheen Shah Afridi have brought upon themselves in recent years.

To anyone who says that these two players need to play lots of Pakistan domestic cricket, I say simply "no, they don't." They don't need to break their backs on unhelpful surfaces, or to learn how to bowl on slow wickets.

Pakistan doesn't need either bowler to be an express pace weapon. They both need to be able to operate at a decent pace for long spells (Zeeshan 135, Wasim around 138-140) but they also need to be able to occupy the crease as a batsman for a couple of hours in each Test innings that they play.

 

[Junaids]

The key point here is the potential impact of Mohammad Zeeshan on Shaheen Shah Afridi.

This is what a typical Mitchell Johnson Test spell in 2013-14 looked like:

Over 1: 143 147 148 146 144 147
Over 2: 145 144 146 148 142 145
Over 3: 144 145 147 131 149 147
Over 4: 145 132 150 146 141 145

But this is what a typical current Shaheen Shah Afridi spell currently looks like:

Over 1: 134 136 133 137 135 136
Over 2: 136 133 132 134 137 135
Over 3: 134 141 133 137 135 136
Over 4: 136 133 132 134 137 135
Over 5: 135 133 137 140 135 136
Over 6: 136 133 132 134 141 135
Over 7: 134 136 133 137 135 136

Shaheen is going to take more wickets in 24 balls (4 overs) of fast bowling than he is in 42 balls (7 overs) of fast-medium bowling.

But someone needs to be the stock bowler to allow Shaheen to be the shock bowler.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Mohammed Zeeshan has not bowled 6 overs in total yet in professional cricket yet.

It's highly unlikely that he would want to bowl 6 over spells in Test cricket just to keep Shaheen fresh.

If someone was to pull the lad aside and ask him what he wants in life as a cricketer, ask him to be honest and not to worry about what his seniors will say.

I think its almost certain he will say T20 cricket, ODI World cups, PSL and franchise leagues.

He's not getting up in the morning with the motivation of keeping Shaheen fit.

This is the last Pakistan test tour of Asia that anyone ( Pakistanis, neutrals, Aussies) will care about.

In fact unless we somehow win 3-0 it may be the last Pakistani test tour of Australia ever.

 

[ahmadharis1]

I understand that his height can be a good tool if utilized correctly but can we not go head over heels for a kid just because he did well against Nepal U-19 and India U-19?

A huge issue is fast tracking players to the national team before they're ready just because they had a few flashy performances with little domestic experience. International cricket should not be a playground for young players to gain experience; it's the final frontier where more seasoned players should put their fine tuned skills to work against the top teams.

Shadab had a decent PSL season and was fast tracked to become our "premier" leg spinner and while he is fine in T20s, he's been mediocre (if not downright horrendous lately) in ODIs because he never gained the experience in domestic cricket.

Haris Rauf bowled a few balls at 150 in the PSL, and leveraged that not only into an ODI callup but somehow a test selection. He was fast tracked the ODI/Test team just because paCe is pAcE... never mind he has no bowling brain beyond throwing 24 deliveries.

Same for Mohammad Wasim Jr, who had a decent PSL and was fast tracked into the ODI and test team without really showing he can bowl at that level. Zaman Khan is also likely to feature in all formats in the coming year for god knows why.

Haider Ali was fast tracked to the t20 team based on one PSL and look where he is now. Naseem Shah was fast tracked to the team just because of his pace and his body is falling apart.

There's no need to wrap Mohammad Zeeshan in cotton just to fast track him to the team to bowl 5 over spells. If he can't handle bowling 10-15 overs per day in first class cricket then he has no business playing cricket.

We can't keep expecting Pakistan to do any well in international cricket if they keep taking shortcuts and selecting players before they're ready. They'll may do well against Bangladesh and New Zealand C at home but look hopeless against real competition as we saw in the Asia Cup and World Cup.

 

[kingusama92]

Fast-tracking isn't useful in this case.

He has a lot to learn at the domestic level and he's still growing there. His development between the PJL and now has been excellent as he's tweaked his approach to the crease.

A player should only be fast-tracked when he's excelling at the domestic level and there's nothing left to learn. Amir as a teenager was a good example because he was dominating for NBP just tearing through top-order batsmen. Zeeshan still has loads to learn and will get better with a proper FC season or two under his belt.

When a player is learning the art of Test bowling, he needs to bowl in back-breaking conditions too. He's so new to the game that any experience will be useful and it will not be a waste of his time. Zeeshan is so fresh that playing these matches will also build his experience of different conditions within the country.

I would aim for a debut around 20 (based on his listed age) assuming he's in good form and progressing. But yes, they can always include him in international camps, get him time at the national academy, and even start taking him on tours once he's 19 and is performing well domestically.

 

[Junaids]

Mohammed Zeeshan has not bowled 6 overs in total yet in professional cricket yet.

It's highly unlikely that he would want to bowl 6 over spells in Test cricket just to keep Shaheen fresh.

If someone was to pull the lad aside and ask him what he wants in life as a cricketer, ask him to be honest and not to worry about what his seniors will say.

I think its almost certain he will say T20 cricket, ODI World cups, PSL and franchise leagues.

He's not getting up in the morning with the motivation of keeping Shaheen fit.

This is the last Pakistan test tour of Asia that anyone ( Pakistanis, neutrals, Aussies) will care about.

In fact unless we somehow win 3-0 it may be the last Pakistani test tour of Australia ever.

I don't think I explained myself very well!

A 6'8 fast bowler will be primarily a Test asset, not a white ball one, but has the raw materials to play every format.

But his method will always be the same.

Absolute accuracy, full length, ball aimed at the top of off-stump.

Extra pace over 135'ish is no help - it's more likely to lift the ball too high.

He isn't just there to keep Shaheen fresh - he's going to take a mountain of wickets himself too.

Glenn McGrath was 6'6 and bowled at 130-135K but took 641 Test wickets at 21.64 and 381 ODI wickets.

Brett Lee was 6'2 and bowled 15K faster, but took 310 Test wickets at 30.81 and 380 ODI wickets.

McGrath literally had twice the career that Brett Lee had.

I'm just saying that Zeeshan needs to emulate McGrath, not try to be Shoaib Akhtar.

 

[Junaids]

Fast-tracking isn't useful in this case.

He has a lot to learn at the domestic level and he's still growing there. His development between the PJL and now has been excellent as he's tweaked his approach to the crease.

A player should only be fast-tracked when he's excelling at the domestic level and there's nothing left to learn. Amir as a teenager was a good example because he was dominating for NBP just tearing through top-order batsmen. Zeeshan still has loads to learn and will get better with a proper FC season or two under his belt.

When a player is learning the art of Test bowling, he needs to bowl in back-breaking conditions too. He's so new to the game that any experience will be useful and it will not be a waste of his time. Zeeshan is so fresh that playing these matches will also build his experience of different conditions within the country.

I would aim for a debut around 20 (based on his listed age) assuming he's in good form and progressing. But yes, they can always include him in international camps, get him time at the national academy, and even start taking him on tours once he's 19 and is performing well domestically.

I think Pakistan domestic cricket is complete garbage and a waste of time for a lanky fast bowler. Ehsan Adil is basically proof of how it fails to develop people into international cricketers.

Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis and Shaheen Shah Afridi had each played less than 5 domestic First Class matches when they joined the Test squad.

My list of areas for development for Mohammad Zeeshan are:

1. Improve his accuracy and line and length.
2. Improve his batting.
3. Improve his fielding.

I don't think he needs to play QEA, let alone domestic white ball cricket, to do that.

I think he needs to bowl to Abdullah Shafique, Babar Azam, Shan Masood and Saud Shakeel in the nets.

And I think he needs to bat against Shaheen, Naseem, Haris Rauf and Wasim in the nets too.

 

[Junaids]

To be frank, the first thing I'd do would be to send him to spend a month working with Ian Pont on his action.

Make that action as repeatable as possible, and everything else will follow.

 

[uppercut]

The current tour of Australia eloquently highlights the eternal problem for Asian Test teams.

They struggle to produce the tall right-arm fast bowlers which every team needs to slow the scoring rate of the opposition and to induce them to take risks.

Australia dropped James Pattinson a few years ago because at 6'1 he couldn't slow down the scoring rate like the 6'5 Hazlewood or the 6'4 Cummins. The odd short genius (Marshall, Ryan Harris, Steyn) still works at Test level, but height is an even better predictor of success in SENA than express pace is.

Pakistan has again embarked on a tour of Australia with an army of short, skiddy medium pacers. It's why Wahab Riaz tried to get Haris Rauf - who is 1 inch shorter than Imran Khan and Waqar Younis but faster than both of them - to play to introduce some menace to the attack.

Mohammad Zeeshan offers huge opportunities for Pakistan. He's 6'8 and he already bowls in the mid-130's, which is all that would ever be required of him. But more than that, if he can bowl a 6 over spell in every Test session, then Shaheen Shah Afridi can go back to bowling a single 4 over spell at 145K each session, like Mitchell Johnson, rather than a 7 over spell at 134K like he currently has to.

Imagine a Test bowling attack of a part-time spinner combined with:

Shaheen Shah Afridi - 4 overs per session at 145K
Naseem Shah - 5 overs per session at 145K
Mohammad Zeeshan - 6 overs per session at 135K
Mohammad Wasim - 6 overs per session at 140K
Part-time spinner - 5 economical overs per session.

That attack would be lethal outside Asia, and even in Asia you could just replace Mohammad Wasim with a specialist spinner.

And the purpose of Zeeshan and Wasim is to bowl spells of 6-2-12-0 that allow the skipper to rotate Shaheen and Naseem bowling shorter, faster spells.

But this requires a few things to happen:

1. Mohammad Zeeshan needs to:
a) Become a reliable Number 9 batsman, not a pinch-hitter. He needs to bat for an hour every single day in the nets.
b) Mohammad Zeeshan needs to minimize his domestic bowling in Pakistan, to avoid stress fractures on dead wickets.
c) Mohammad Zeeshan needs to be selected for all senior home and away national team series, so he spends his time bowling to the best batsmen in the country, not the worst.

I want Zeeshan to be a relentlessly accurate fast-medium bowler. Like Ambrose, McGrath, Walsh and Garner he should be bowling at paces between 130-135K, but not faster. His job is to bowl a full length that can't be driven, pulled or hooked or cut.

2. Mohammad Wasim needs to:
a) Become a proper Number 8 batsman, which means playing domestic cricket batting at Number 4 or 5, and not bowling more than 10 overs per day in domestic cricket.
b) Get an English contract to really work on his all-round skills.

And they both need intensive English tuition and cultural training so that they can avoid the kind of embarrassment that both Shadab Khan and Shaheen Shah Afridi have brought upon themselves in recent years.

To anyone who says that these two players need to play lots of Pakistan domestic cricket, I say simply "no, they don't." They don't need to break their backs on unhelpful surfaces, or to learn how to bowl on slow wickets.

Pakistan doesn't need either bowler to be an express pace weapon. They both need to be able to operate at a decent pace for long spells (Zeeshan 135, Wasim around 138-140) but they also need to be able to occupy the crease as a batsman for a couple of hours in each Test innings that they play.

Going by this Height = Success theory, Mohammad Irfan and Ishant Sharma should have been amongst the most successful bowlers in the history of Test Cricket. Sadly Cricket does not work like that. Every single Indian fast bowler what played in the last tour in AUS was shorter( and inexperienced) than Hazlewood, Starc and Cummins but yet they out-bowled the Aussie fast bowlers. This is the beauty of Test Cricket, this is why we love this game. Its not like a few other stupid sports where you can say that certain physical attributes of players will give them an edge over the competition. Doesn't work like that. Cricket is not a sport that can be distilled into some formula/criteria.

 

[Xoib]

Fast-tracking isn't useful in this case.

He has a lot to learn at the domestic level and he's still growing there. His development between the PJL and now has been excellent as he's tweaked his approach to the crease.

A player should only be fast-tracked when he's excelling at the domestic level and there's nothing left to learn. Amir as a teenager was a good example because he was dominating for NBP just tearing through top-order batsmen. Zeeshan still has loads to learn and will get better with a proper FC season or two under his belt.

When a player is learning the art of Test bowling, he needs to bowl in back-breaking conditions too. He's so new to the game that any experience will be useful and it will not be a waste of his time. Zeeshan is so fresh that playing these matches will also build his experience of different conditions within the country.

I would aim for a debut around 20 (based on his listed age) assuming he's in good form and progressing. But yes, they can always include him in international camps, get him time at the national academy, and even start taking him on tours once he's 19 and is performing well domestically.

Yeah what I am dreading is he will be carried as a drinks boy for useless T 20 series everywhere in the name of expierence and miss out on crucial learning by bowling regularly in quaid e azam trophy

 

[Nikhil_cric]

The last attack to win in Australia had 7'2" giants like Mohammad Siraj and Shardul Thakur in it.

The current PAK attack should have been

Shaheen - 6'6"
Arshad Iqbal - 6'6"
Shaur Ahmed - 6'8"
Mohammad Zeeshan - 6'8"

Zeeshan is absolutely ready for Tests in Australia because he is a fake 17 year old and he's really 20-21 just like Naseem debuted in Australia as a fake 16 year old

 

[zarak]

The current tour of Australia eloquently highlights the eternal problem for Asian Test teams.

They struggle to produce the tall right-arm fast bowlers which every team needs to slow the scoring rate of the opposition and to induce them to take risks.

Australia dropped James Pattinson a few years ago because at 6'1 he couldn't slow down the scoring rate like the 6'5 Hazlewood or the 6'4 Cummins. The odd short genius (Marshall, Ryan Harris, Steyn) still works at Test level, but height is an even better predictor of success in SENA than express pace is.

Pakistan has again embarked on a tour of Australia with an army of short, skiddy medium pacers. It's why Wahab Riaz tried to get Haris Rauf - who is 1 inch shorter than Imran Khan and Waqar Younis but faster than both of them - to play to introduce some menace to the attack.

Mohammad Zeeshan offers huge opportunities for Pakistan. He's 6'8 and he already bowls in the mid-130's, which is all that would ever be required of him. But more than that, if he can bowl a 6 over spell in every Test session, then Shaheen Shah Afridi can go back to bowling a single 4 over spell at 145K each session, like Mitchell Johnson, rather than a 7 over spell at 134K like he currently has to.

Imagine a Test bowling attack of a part-time spinner combined with:

Shaheen Shah Afridi - 4 overs per session at 145K
Naseem Shah - 5 overs per session at 145K
Mohammad Zeeshan - 6 overs per session at 135K
Mohammad Wasim - 6 overs per session at 140K
Part-time spinner - 5 economical overs per session.

That attack would be lethal outside Asia, and even in Asia you could just replace Mohammad Wasim with a specialist spinner.

And the purpose of Zeeshan and Wasim is to bowl spells of 6-2-12-0 that allow the skipper to rotate Shaheen and Naseem bowling shorter, faster spells.

But this requires a few things to happen:

1. Mohammad Zeeshan needs to:
a) Become a reliable Number 9 batsman, not a pinch-hitter. He needs to bat for an hour every single day in the nets.
b) Mohammad Zeeshan needs to minimize his domestic bowling in Pakistan, to avoid stress fractures on dead wickets.
c) Mohammad Zeeshan needs to be selected for all senior home and away national team series, so he spends his time bowling to the best batsmen in the country, not the worst.

I want Zeeshan to be a relentlessly accurate fast-medium bowler. Like Ambrose, McGrath, Walsh and Garner he should be bowling at paces between 130-135K, but not faster. His job is to bowl a full length that can't be driven, pulled or hooked or cut.

2. Mohammad Wasim needs to:
a) Become a proper Number 8 batsman, which means playing domestic cricket batting at Number 4 or 5, and not bowling more than 10 overs per day in domestic cricket.
b) Get an English contract to really work on his all-round skills.

And they both need intensive English tuition and cultural training so that they can avoid the kind of embarrassment that both Shadab Khan and Shaheen Shah Afridi have brought upon themselves in recent years.

To anyone who says that these two players need to play lots of Pakistan domestic cricket, I say simply "no, they don't." They don't need to break their backs on unhelpful surfaces, or to learn how to bowl on slow wickets.

Pakistan doesn't need either bowler to be an express pace weapon. They both need to be able to operate at a decent pace for long spells (Zeeshan 135, Wasim around 138-140) but they also need to be able to occupy the crease as a batsman for a couple of hours in each Test innings that they play.

How did an Indian team with no bowler above 6ft manage to beat Aus twice at home. Skill and accuracy matters. They have shown that you do not need tall bowlers to win.

 

[zarak]

The last attack to win in Australia had 7'2" giants like Mohammad Siraj and Shardul Thakur in it.

The current PAK attack should have been

Shaheen - 6'6"
Arshad Iqbal - 6'6"
Shaur Ahmed - 6'8"
Mohammad Zeeshan - 6'8"

Zeeshan is absolutely ready for Tests in Australia because he is a fake 17 year old and he's really 20-21 just like Naseem debuted in Australia as a fake 16 year old

how old does Naseem look to you now.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

how old does Naseem look to you now.

Around 23-24

 

[zarak]

Around 23-24

Fair enough. I am guessing he was 18 when he made his debut. Still and u19 player but not 16.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

Don't see your obsession with height.

Australia didn't drop Pattinson because of his height but due to his recurrent injuries that had them change his bowling action which he couldn't replicate his previous success with.

 

[SaimFan]

That's a good argument. We have previously fast-tracked M Amir, M Irfan, Shaheen and Naseem, who all have had decent careers (or start to the careers in case of two Shahs).
Waqar and Wasim were obviously a great pair in 90s both fast tracked to international team.

Marco Jensen, Rabada were both fast-tracked by South Africa, and both have been impressive across formats.

Zeeshan is a very impressive young lad. He should also be fast-tracked with careful management of workload.

And seeing our test bowling resources being very thin, not a bad argument bringing him in early to cause some discomfort to batters with his height and swing with new ball.

 

[mazkhan]

He needs to play this years president trophy which is gonna start in 15th December, so hopefully one of the 8 departments sign him up.

 

[BunnyRabbit]

That's a good argument. We have previously fast-tracked M Amir, M Irfan, Shaheen and Naseem, who all have had decent careers (or start to the careers in case of two Shahs).
Waqar and Wasim were obviously a great pair in 90s both fast tracked to international team.

Marco Jensen, Rabada were both fast-tracked by South Africa, and both have been impressive across formats.

Zeeshan is a very impressive young lad. He should also be fast-tracked with careful management of workload.

And seeing our test bowling resources being very thin, not a bad argument bringing him in early to cause some discomfort to batters with his height and swing with new ball.

fast tracked musa khan, ehsan adil, wasim jr, hasnain, dhani as well. No one apart from Shaheen and Naseem who are head and shoulder above in terms of potential and ceiling of others have come off.

 

[Saj]

My concern is his levels of fitness and whether he can bowl 15 to 20 overs in a day.

Soon he will hopefully start playing domestic cricket and that will test him.

Hopefully he will continue to make progress.

 

[Devadwal]

He is another overhyped Bowler just becouse he has height and pace . Not anything special so he will faded away after few year.

 

[shamaan]

He is another overhyped Bowler just becouse he has height and pace . Not anything special so he will faded away after few year.

Having his height is a special as most bowlers don't have his height.

 

[Devadwal]

Having his height is a special as most bowlers don't have his height.

Mohammad Irfan should have best fast bowler if height is that important. Without skill and fitness height is nothing

 

[shamaan]

Mohammad Irfan should have best fast bowler if height is that important. Without skill and fitness height is nothing

Height is important ask the Australians.

 

[Junaids]

Mohammad Zeeshan has the two most important assets: enough height and enough pace. That's enough for me to say that he should be groomed for a higher level.

He has things that need to be worked on. His action is not repeatable enough yet and his accuracy and stamina will need to be built up. His batting will need a lot of work.

But he has the raw materials that very few bowlers have.

And I don't think that Pakistan domestic cricket will improve those deficits very much, if at all. He needs to be with the best coaches and practising against the best batsmen and bowlers.

 

[chinaman00]

I’m not convinced his height alone will ensure success. One needs hard
work and working brains to become an effective bowler.

This kid should prioritize white ball cricket in Pakistan but should also aim to play all his first class cricket in County Cricket. The pitches in Pakistan are a known health hazard and there’s nothing useful this kid, or any young kid, can gain from playing domestic first class cricket in Pakistan.

 

[Flat_Track_Bully]

Look unless there are Steyn's in Pakistan it's not going to work, it becomes a wild goose chase.

We need to stick to a rigid formula:

6ft+
85mph+
Broad shoulders with the physique to add more muscle and strength. Not the lanky skinny brittle type.

Just focus on finding pacers like these and let the best ones rise to the top.

Also we need to understand the batters in our domestic circuit are one of the worst in world cricket so any 5'9 pacer is going to end up looking decent and then proceed to getting spanked in internationals.

If we can't produce 6ft+ pacers then just accept our fate and focus on spinners which he don't have any either

 

[BouncerGuy]

This thread is about Mohammad Zeeshan. No need to bring India, Australia or any other stuff here. Please stay on topic.

 

[angrypathan]

Enough of this fast tracking rubbish. Far too many careers have been ruined in the fantasy of finding the next Wasim. Any young player, bowler or batsman, should not be selected for Pakistan without playing a minimum of 20 first class games

 

[BouncerGuy]

The problem is when we see a good bowler who picks few wickets in 2-3 games, then we just think that he is the best one we have and should be in the team straight away. Let him complete his period of grooming, play some domestic games and work on his own fitness and then we can talk.

 

[Sher Khan]

A lot of people saying he needs to play FC Cricket, etc. but do you really think him bowling 35-40 overs per innings on dead wickets in Pakistan will do him any good?

 

[BouncerGuy]

Mohammad Zeeshan has been listed in the Emerging category for this year's PSL. Good opportunity for him if he gets to play in this year's PSL and have some exposure by playing with some prominent names in the cricketing world.

 

[angrypathan]

A lot of people saying he needs to play FC Cricket, etc. but do you really think him bowling 35-40 overs per innings on dead wickets in Pakistan will do him any good?

Yes. It’ll teach him the art of bowling on dead wickets and basically force him to hit a consistent line and length. It will also condition his body to bowling long spells. International cricket is not the place to learn the art of bowling

 

[Cricket Warrior]

The way he delivers the ball i am afraid he will get some serious injury.

 

[Junaids]

Regrettably, many of the replies in this thread do not seem to understand the reality of international sport between national teams.

It is complete nonsense to say "This player needs to do this to be considered".

In international sport you can't buy talented players to fill the gaps in your team.

You have to identify what your deficits are, and then identify very young players with the raw materials to be groomed to fill that role.

I look at the Pakistan Test team, and see a need for the following:

VACANCY 1:
NUMBER 7: Batsman who can bowl at least fast-medium, with a minimum height of 6'0 and a minimum potential batting average of 30, and target bowling average under 35. (EG Mitchell Marsh or Cameron Green).

VACANCY 2:
NUMBER 8 or 9: Fast or Fast-medium bowler of minimum height 6'4, who can bowl long, accurate spells at a minimum pace of 135K, with a target bowling average of under 28 and a target batting average of over 25. In other words, not so much Curtly Ambrose as Jason Holder or Andrew Flintoff.

VACANCY 3:
NUMBER 8 or 9: Spin bowler who can bowl long, accurate spells, with a target bowling average of under 35 and a target batting average of over 30. So more a Daniel Vettori than a Nathan Lyon.

If you look at Vacancy 2, Pakistan has NEVER had a bowler of that description - which is why they have never won in Australia or South Africa. But that one player - a true Jason Holder - would completely change the balance of the Test team.

Pakistan has never had a Jason Holder, which suggests that the only way it's going to happen is if the PCB identifies someone like Mohammad Zeeshan who is tall, bowls quick enough and has some batting talent. And then he needs to be removed from domestic cricket, and groomed with the national squad and with top specialist bowling and batting coaches overseas.

 

[zarak]

Mohammad Irfan should have best fast bowler if height is that important. Without skill and fitness height is nothing

Zeeshan has a near perfect action. He is well built bowls with good gas and is young. He has potential, no one would look at him and say he's average.

 

[mazkhan]

He is young. He needs 1 to 2 seasons in quetta first class system. Then he will shine.

Have you watched him he can't bowl he looks the part but his bowling is not even club level he simply can't bowl its amateurish . On the other hand ubaid and raza are proper bowlers whether the make it that's another story .

It's the same way I go to the park on Sunday and we have a kick around with the football with mates
We used to hire out the astro turf a few yrs ago but we are amateurs not semi pros or pros.

 

[kron]

Have you watched him he can't bowl he looks the part but his bowling is not even club level he simply can't bowl its amateurish . On the other hand ubaid and raza are proper bowlers whether the make it that's another story .

It's the same way I go to the park on Sunday and we have a kick around with the football with mates
We used to hire out the astro turf a few yrs ago but we are amateurs not semi pros or pros.

Raza looks good yes. I agree.

But zeeshan physically has the highest ceiling.

I would still persist with him.
Make him grind in first class for a season. Give him some a tour training. Then we shall see what he is made of

 

[FearlessRoar]

Peshawar Zalmi's Mohammad Zeeshan is a good raw talent. The slower ball to Quetta Gladiators' Captain Rille Rossouw was a remarkable delivery.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1759164735902081300

 

[Bewal Express]

Raza looks good yes. I agree.

But zeeshan physically has the highest ceiling.

I would still persist with him.
Make him grind in first class for a season. Give him some a tour training. Then we shall see what he is made of

Agree max of 22 overs per innings and 10 overs per day

 

[Junaids]

It's fascinating listening to Ian Chappell talk about Joel Garner developing from roughly where Zeeshan is now to being a world-beater inside one year.

According to Chappelli, in 1977-78 when World Series Cricket started, Joel Garner bowled in the 135-145 range, but with variations in his length and especially his line. Chappelli says that a good backfoot player could pull and hook him, and use his pace to score faster.

After one summer of WSC, Garner had completely changed his line and length.

Five deliveries in every single over pitched on a good length, and his height meant that in Australia they rose into your ribs while in England he hit the bails.

Three of those balls were on middle stump. Two were on off-stump. No exceptions - ever.

He bowled one bouncer or yorker every second over. No exceptions - ever.

This basically made it impossible to score off him.

A typical match was the Port of Spain Test against England in 1980-81. Garner's figures were:

23-8-37-2
25-10-31-2

This is clearly what Zeeshan needs to master. He needs to eliminate the variation which T20 creates, and he needs to learn to bowl 5 balls per over in the same two places (which are just 1 inch apart) as Joel Garner.

 

[Junaids]

The last attack to win in Australia had 7'2" giants like Mohammad Siraj and Shardul Thakur in it.

The current PAK attack should have been

Shaheen - 6'6"
Arshad Iqbal - 6'6"
Shaur Ahmed - 6'8"
Mohammad Zeeshan - 6'8"

Zeeshan is absolutely ready for Tests in Australia because he is a fake 17 year old and he's really 20-21 just like Naseem debuted in Australia as a fake 16 year old

Two things.

Joel Garner and Curtly Ambrose were both 24 when they debuted. If Zeeshan is 21 he will be just fine.

Secondly, India didn't win in Australia because they had better bowlers. They won in Australia because Australia had rubbish batsmen like Finch playing Test cricket.

 

[uppercut]

It's fascinating listening to Ian Chappell talk about Joel Garner developing from roughly where Zeeshan is now to being a world-beater inside one year.

According to Chappelli, in 1977-78 when World Series Cricket started, Joel Garner bowled in the 135-145 range, but with variations in his length and especially his line. Chappelli says that a good backfoot player could pull and hook him, and use his pace to score faster.

After one summer of WSC, Garner had completely changed his line and length.

Five deliveries in every single over pitched on a good length, and his height meant that in Australia they rose into your ribs while in England he hit the bails.

Three of those balls were on middle stump. Two were on off-stump. No exceptions - ever.

He bowled one bouncer or yorker every second over. No exceptions - ever.

This basically made it impossible to score off him.

A typical match was the Port of Spain Test against England in 1980-81. Garner's figures were:

23-8-37-2
25-10-31-2

This is clearly what Zeeshan needs to master. He needs to eliminate the variation which T20 creates, and he needs to learn to bowl 5 balls per over in the same two places (which are just 1 inch apart) as Joel Garner.

here is the most important part of the equation you are missing .... Garner bowled to such great "attacking" batsmen as Boycott, Sunny, Tavare etc. Whereas Zeeshan would be bowling to contemporary to batsmen who play faaar more attacking brand of cricket than anyone every did in the 70s and 80s.

There comes a time when its prudent to accept that times have changed instead of digging your heels and keep pretending that things were better/greater/bigger 50 yrs ago. Thats not how the world works. Just go watch old Cricket videos on Youtube if you dont believe me. Utter drab. No one will pay a cent to watch that brand of cricket.

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Two things.

Joel Garner and Curtly Ambrose were both 24 when they debuted. If Zeeshan is 21 he will be just fine.

Secondly, India didn't win in Australia because they had better bowlers. They won in Australia because Australia had rubbish batsmen like Finch playing Test cricket.

I disagree with this comment slightly.

You still have to bowl out the home team multiple times to be able to win a series.

If the same team is given to Pakistan (Finch included), they would still lose 3-0 which tells you that India did have bowlers who knew how to take 20 wickets.

 

[Junaids]

here is the most important part of the equation you are missing .... Garner bowled to such great "attacking" batsmen as Boycott, Sunny, Tavare etc. Whereas Zeeshan would be bowling to contemporary to batsmen who play faaar more attacking brand of cricket than anyone every did in the 70s and 80s.

There comes a time when its prudent to accept that times have changed instead of digging your heels and keep pretending that things were better/greater/bigger 50 yrs ago. Thats not how the world works. Just go watch old Cricket videos on Youtube if you dont believe me. Utter drab. No one will pay a cent to watch that brand of cricket.

As Glenn McGrath showed, a metronomic tall bowler will have far more success against attacking batsmen than defensive ones.

A defensive batsman can ignore nine deliveries out of every ten bowled by a McGrath or a Zeeshan in Australia or South Africa, and let them sail over the stumps.

Chappelli actually gestured with his hands about the difference between Garner's line before and after the change.

After the change, every ball was aimed at the top of off or middle stump and you couldn't free your arms to hook, pull or cut. You could try a backfoot drive in the air, and that was it.

I would imagine that where a Garner / Ambrose / McGrath / Van Der Bijl would previously have had figures of 20-5-45-2, against modern attacking batsmen they would probably have 15-3-45-4.

 

[uppercut]

As Glenn McGrath showed, a metronomic tall bowler will have far more success against attacking batsmen than defensive ones.

How did that work out against Sehwag, Tendulkar, VVS , Lara etc for McGrath ? In anny case McGrath is a modern bowler who evolved his craft playing against a whole bunch of attacking players. You on the other hand are drooling over the likes of Garner and Vince van der Bijl who did not even play Test Cricket !! How does that even make sense ?

A defensive batsman can ignore nine deliveries out of every ten bowled by a McGrath or a Zeeshan in Australia or South Africa, and let them sail over the stumps.

And who is going to score runs ? Do you really think its harder to practice the art of leaving the ball versus playing a attacking brand of cricket where the bowlers one dimensional accuracy becomes his worst enemy where players with nimble foot work and un-orthodox techniques start to use that to their advantage ?

Chappelli actually gestured with his hands about the difference between Garner's line before and after the change.

After the change, every ball was aimed at the top of off or middle stump and you couldn't free your arms to hook, pull or cut. You could try a backfoot drive in the air, and that was it.

Speaking of Chappelli .... do you recall how he rated the likes of Sehwag, Tendulkar, Lara, Gillchrist as the sort of batsmen that he would be wary of instead of the likes of the traditional batsmen like Dravid , Boycott , Chanderpaul etc ?

I would imagine that where a Garner / Ambrose / McGrath / Van Der Bijl would previously have had figures of 20-5-45-2, against modern attacking batsmen they would probably have 15-3-45-4.

No imagination required ... go take a look at Jimmy Andersons figures today ( 13 over 78 runs ZERO wkts ) which are less than 24 hours old. There is nothing better than real evidence as opposed to hypothetical/imaginary/fictional work. This is what happens when you go up against fearless batsmen. It completely foobars your brain. Something none of the old school cricketers can comprehend. Do you think ECB are fools to provide free license to the English team to play un-inhibited cricket ?

 

[giri26]

Two things.

Joel Garner and Curtly Ambrose were both 24 when they debuted. If Zeeshan is 21 he will be just fine.

Secondly, India didn't win in Australia because they had better bowlers. They won in Australia because Australia had rubbish batsmen like Finch playing Test cricket.

In 2021 Australia had Smith and Labu back along with Warner. Also India won with Natarajan, Siraj and Shardul Thakur. None of them are extreme fast bowlers. India won in Australia because of their great planning and sticking to it no matter who played in the XI. Pakistan hype machine needs to stop and stop undermining India's win in Australia. Pakistan bowling has been poor in Australia for over 2 decades now and it is a fact. Pakistan played against an Australian team which had Doug Bollinger, Peter Siddle and Johnson (Pre-2013 when he was a loose cannon), they still ended up losing 3-0. Just having tall bowlers will not win you a series anywhere, bowlers need to use their brains and the team needs to have plans to contain runs in Australia. Pakistan still relies on magic spells or individual greatness to win Test cricket which can happen in white ball format but not in Tests. In tests you need more cohesive efforts from the entire team. If individual performances can win you games Aamer Jamal would have won you a Test at least with his brilliant display with bat and ball.

 

[Junaids]

In 2021 Australia had Smith and Labu back along with Warner. Also India won with Natarajan, Siraj and Shardul Thakur. None of them are extreme fast bowlers. India won in Australia because of their great planning and sticking to it no matter who played in the XI. Pakistan hype machine needs to stop and stop undermining India's win in Australia. Pakistan bowling has been poor in Australia for over 2 decades now and it is a fact. Pakistan played against an Australian team which had Doug Bollinger, Peter Siddle and Johnson (Pre-2013 when he was a loose cannon), they still ended up losing 3-0. Just having tall bowlers will not win you a series anywhere, bowlers need to use their brains and the team needs to have plans to contain runs in Australia. Pakistan still relies on magic spells or individual greatness to win Test cricket which can happen in white ball format but not in Tests. In tests you need more cohesive efforts from the entire team. If individual performances can win you games Aamer Jamal would have won you a Test at least with his brilliant display with bat and ball.

I largely agree. Pakistan got rid of their highly-qualified coach who was experienced in Australian conditions and replaced him with an unqualified amateur.

I qm arguing something different: Zeeshan has the raw materials to bowl long, economical Test spells outside Asia which will make batsmen take crazy risks at the other end.

 

[Suleiman]

I largely agree. Pakistan got rid of their highly-qualified coach who was experienced in Australian conditions and replaced him with an unqualified amateur.

I qm arguing something different: Zeeshan has the raw materials to bowl long, economical Test spells outside Asia which will make batsmen take crazy risks at the other end.

Let it go Junaids. I appreciate your dedication and insights regarding future of Pak cricket, but PCB and its employees including the players just don’t care about test cricket anymore.

They want to make a quick buck in t20 leagues and move on. Hasnain is another one who is wasting his talent in Mickey Mouse cricket in Bangladesh, SL and the like. Same with Haris who despite his limitations at least had pace for Aussie surfaces. Bowling intelligence is something you can learn as well, but he has zero interest.

I can’t really blame them since PCB pays peanuts and they have to make a living. The risk of putting their body on the line as a fast bowler every game must have a pay off more than what PCB pay, so I don’t hold the fact that they are choosing t20 leagues against them.

 

[uppercut]

Two things.

Joel Garner and Curtly Ambrose were both 24 when they debuted. If Zeeshan is 21 he will be just fine.

They also did not have to contend with modern day technology that makes it easy for anyone to scrutinize your technique and come up with strategies to counter them. They also did not have to contend with crazy batsmen with highly unorthodox techniques that make bowling to them much difficult. This is why you need revise your estimates of past era players.

Secondly, India didn't win in Australia because they had better bowlers. They won in Australia because Australia had rubbish batsmen like Finch playing Test cricket.

Again the problem here is your binary thinking wherein OLD = Automatically very very good and anything new = the opposite. Even if we assume that Finch is a very poor batsman how does one poor batsman undermine India's achievements ? This wat I can EASILY write-off about 90% of all tests every played.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Two things.

Joel Garner and Curtly Ambrose were both 24 when they debuted. If Zeeshan is 21 he will be just fine.

Secondly, India didn't win in Australia because they had better bowlers. They won in Australia because Australia had rubbish batsmen like Finch playing Test cricket.

Aaron Finch didn't play in Border Gavaskar 2020/21

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Two things.

Joel Garner and Curtly Ambrose were both 24 when they debuted. If Zeeshan is 21 he will be just fine.

Secondly, India didn't win in Australia because they had better bowlers. They won in Australia because Australia had rubbish batsmen like Finch playing Test cricket.

It's interesting though. Pakistan drew the series in West Indies 1987/88 because Windies were playing rubbish batsmen like Phil Simmons and Gus Logie.

And they didn't have Viv and Marshall in the first Test.

 

[Junaids]

Aaron Finch didn't play in Border Gavaskar 2020/21

True, but Harris and Wade were two of the five specialist batsmen, which is probably even worse!!!!!!!!

 

[Junaids]

It's interesting though. Pakistan drew the series in West Indies 1987/88 because Windies were playing rubbish batsmen like Phil Simmons and Gus Logie.

And they didn't have Viv and Marshall in the first Test.

Simmons only played the First Test because Viv was out with piles!

Watch the climax of the Third Test on YouTube. West Indies squeaked home by 2 wickets to level the series - now that is a real golden era!

 

[The Bald Eagle]

Guys it's Muhammed Zeeshan performance watch thread not a discussion thread for discussing classic matches. So plz swith to other relevant threads for that sort of discourse.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

He is an injury prone guy and thus must be pampered well.