Are Muslims to blame for the rise in Islamophobia?

[MenInG]

Sounds silly but there are opinions which state that Muslims have brought Islamophobia onto themselves by supporting 'radical' idea etc

Do you agree?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Possibly. I suppose you could offer the same theory about other faiths as well. Are Jews to blame for anti-Antisemitism? Are Christians to blame for Muslim anger?

It's one of those chicken and egg situations.

 

[Technics 1210]

Mostly no, partially yes.

The rise of any type of phobia is pretty much down to the media and politics.

 

[troodon]

Nobody has been able to define what version of Islam is acceptable. Who is to decide which is the correct interpretation? Bombings in the West along with some verses in Quran to me is the driving factor in Islamophobia. News outlets also play a major role in fanning the flames and keep non-muslims doubting the intentions of Muslims all over the world.

 

[Technics 1210]

Nobody has been able to define what version of Islam is acceptable. Who is to decide which is the correct interpretation? Bombings in the West along with some verses in Quran to me is the driving factor in Islamophobia. News outlets also play a major role in fanning the flames and keep non-muslims doubting the intentions of Muslims all over the world.

Bush invaded Iraq because God told him so.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bush-god-told-me-to-invade-iraq-6262644.html

What do you call those who fear Christianity?

There are multiple versions of every faith. Forget bombings in the West, bombing in the Middle East because God told the Christian US President so?

As you say, the media will flame the fire it wants.

 

[tonmoy]

I do not believe in the term "islamophobia"... Islam is an idea and like all ideas it can be criticized. The word to use should be "Muslimophobia".

The thread question is "Should muslim's be blamed"... The short answer is NO. The long answer is that those muslims who support archaic ideas like Stoning, decapitation etc etc can be blamed.

 

[Tubs]

I do not believe in the term "islamophobia"... Islam is an idea and like all ideas it can be criticized. The word to use should be "Muslimophobia".

The thread question is "Should muslim's be blamed"... The short answer is NO. The long answer is that those muslims who support archaic ideas like Stoning, decapitation etc etc can be blamed.

Exactly my belief, I was under the impression that something akin to 'anti-Muslim sentiment' is a better term than 'Islamaphobia'. You're allowed to criticise any belief, but you can't discriminate against people.

Along with the archaic ideas you mentioned, I think the lack of assimilation may be a part too.

However, this should go without saying, but violence should never be a part of this. Even if someone agrees with the most fundamental interpretation of Islam, they can't be attacked for just holding this belief. And that goes for any ideology.

 

[Mamoon]

Islamaphobia is largely a self-created problem, and the Muslim community has not done enough to alter the perception.

I wrote on this topic at great length only recently, so I would be pretty much repeating myself here. However, on popular demand, I would copy paste a few of my relevant posts when I get home.

 

[Technics 1210]

Islamaphobia is largely a self-created problem, and the Muslim community has not done enough to alter the perception.

I wrote on this topic at great length only recently, so I would be pretty much repeating myself here. However, on popular demand, I would copy paste a few of my relevant posts when I get home.

When Muslims march against Islamic terror, the media does not report it - one example. Point being, no matter what Muslims will do, the media will ensure the perception of Islam is in accordance to the political agenda.

 

[Mamoon]

When Muslims march against Islamic terror, the media does not report it - one example. Point being, no matter what Muslims will do, the media will ensure the perception of Islam is in accordance to the political agenda.

Marching against terrorism will not help. Muslims have to improve their standing in the world.

As long as the vast majority of Muslim countries are struggling and Muslims are not making significant contributions in various disciples, Islamophobia will only spread.

 

[Technics 1210]

Marching against terrorism will not help. Muslims have to improve their standing in the world.

As long as the vast majority of Muslim countries are struggling and Muslims are not making significant contributions in various disciples, Islamophobia will only spread.

Marching against terrorism does help in setting the perception, certainly in the UK where the majority of Islamophobes complain why Muslims are not marching against Islamic terrorism/denouncing it. Because people do not see Muslims denounce Islamic terrorism, same people believe Muslims support Islamic terrorism.

Struggle has very little to do with it. There are millions of Christians who struggle in Latin America, there is no case of worldwide Christianophobia. Millions of Muslims struggled long before 9/11 - these was no Islamophobia.

 

[warcry]

the source of islamophobia is oil and other natural resources.
regions occupied by muslim populations are rich in resources
America wants control over those resources
America needs public support to get those resources
America uses its mainstream media power to then stat a campaign promoting hatred against muslims.
You then get what you have today.

Islamophobia has NOTHING to do with Islam itself. It is all about money and power. Just like the crusaders was never about religion, religion was merely a pretext.

And also, If you do not allow America or US companies to get those resources, You are a terrorist. You are subjected to sanctions.

 

[KingKhanWC]

the source of islamophobia is oil and other natural resources.
regions occupied by muslim populations are rich in resources
America wants control over those resources
America needs public support to get those resources
America uses its mainstream media power to then stat a campaign promoting hatred against muslims.
You then get what you have today.

Islamophobia has NOTHING to do with Islam itself. It is all about money and power. Just like the crusaders was never about religion, religion was merely a pretext.

And also, If you do not allow America or US companies to get those resources, You are a terrorist. You are subjected to sanctions.

Also Zionist Israel is to blame.

Anyone who thinks Muslims the victims are to blame are pretty stupid people imo.

 

[ILcricket]

somewhat yes .

 

[warcry]

Also Zionist Israel is to blame.

Anyone who thinks Muslims the victims are to blame are pretty stupid people imo.

I can prove everything I said. There is proof that US government was complicit in 9/11.

I want EVERYBODY on Pakpassion to watch the following links

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3xgjxJwedA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWLis-TVB2w



If you donot have the time as the videos are long, the transcripts are in the below links

https://www.corbettreport.com/episode-308-911-trillions-follow-the-money/

https://www.corbettreport.com/episode-280-who-was-really-behind-the-911-attacks/

Please watch/read
thank you

 

[KingKhanWC]

I can prove everything I said. There is proof that US government was complicit in 9/11.

I want EVERYBODY on Pakpassion to watch the following links

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3xgjxJwedA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWLis-TVB2w



If you donot have the time as the videos are long, the transcripts are in the below links

https://www.corbettreport.com/episode-308-911-trillions-follow-the-money/

https://www.corbettreport.com/episode-280-who-was-really-behind-the-911-attacks/

Please watch/read
thank you

Bro, Im the last person you need to inform on this.

Yes 911 was a false flag operation in order to invade lands in the middle east for the resources. It was also a great thing for Israel, as admitted by them, helping them to steal more land and using the excuse of fighting terroism and pretending to be victims.

 

[Dios]

Yes, partly at least. Even if it is a minority, there are simply far too many Muslims in western countries that have failed to integrate and insist on bringing along their backward way of thinking and living to the west. Victim mentality and an 'us versus them' attitude is prevalent in Muslim communities. After terrorist attacks in western countries you will always find a section of the community refusing to condole with the victims, condemn the perpetrators/radical Islam and even going so far as to justify these acts. They will put up a combative stance and say 'Why do I have to condemn every terror attack? Where is the sympathy for Palestine, Syria? They don't care when Muslims are dying'. This brigade ended up with egg on their face after the New Zealand terror attacks and the response it got from the western media and the widespread sympathy from people in general.

Having said that, the main cause of any kind of phobia is a lack of education and exposure to the wider world on part of the masses. The media, politicians and fear-mongering too play their part in exploiting these groups.

 

[IMMY69]

Just like the narrative on India is slowly changing, so will the narrative on Islam.
The catalyst to change are more leaders like Imran Khan who have the ability to change perception.

 

[Technics 1210]

Yes, partly at least. Even if it is a minority, there are simply far too many Muslims in western countries that have failed to integrate and insist on bringing along their backward way of thinking and living to the west. Victim mentality and an 'us versus them' attitude is prevalent in Muslim communities. After terrorist attacks in western countries you will always find a section of the community refusing to condole with the victims, condemn the perpetrators/radical Islam and even going so far as to justify these acts. They will put up a combative stance and say 'Why do I have to condemn every terror attack? Where is the sympathy for Palestine, Syria? They don't care when Muslims are dying'. This brigade ended up with egg on their face after the New Zealand terror attacks and the response it got from the western media and the widespread sympathy from people in general.

Having said that, the main cause of any kind of phobia is a lack of education and exposure to the wider world on part of the masses. The media, politicians and fear-mongering too play their part in exploiting these groups.

Give me examples of how Muslims have failed to integrate in the West, and how they should integrate in the West? Drinking Alcohol? Eating Swine? Parading their women as sexual object? What is your idea of integration in a Western secular society?

 

[KingKhanWC]

Give me examples of how Muslims have failed to integrate in the West, and how they should integrate in the West? Drinking Alcohol? Eating Swine? Parading their women as sexual object? What is your idea of integration in a Western secular society?

It basically means leave your religion.

 

[Itachi]

Partially probably.

Just taking a day to day life example, in PP even, it does seems like some Muslims try to force their opinion on others. Quran is God's word for Muslims but not for non Muslims. While trying to explain various aspects of life, some Muslims force their religious ways and this makes the interaction very awkward. On one hand, i wouldn't want to offend his ideology but hey, you are forcing your believes to me in a judgemental way and that too I won't welcome.

This creates a distance between people where people start to feel it's muslims vs others. This doesnt necessarily create a phobia but people will tend to avoid deep interaction, discussion or even social interaction with those people to avoid unnecessary conflicts.

 

[warcry]

Bro, Im the last person you need to inform on this.

Yes 911 was a false flag operation in order to invade lands in the middle east for the resources. It was also a great thing for Israel, as admitted by them, helping them to steal more land and using the excuse of fighting terroism and pretending to be victims.

not for you. This is intended for deluded people like [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION]

 

[Technics 1210]

It basically means leave your religion.

Yup. Though it would be interesting to see what people mean by integration in the West.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Yup. Though it would be interesting to see what people mean by integration in the West.

Pretty ironic for some Brits to ask others to integrate knowing their history of intergration in other lands. Tbf it's only the less educated redneck types or right wing snobs who ask for this. Most Brits dont give a damn as long as you obey the law and pay your fair share of taxes.

 

[Big Mac]

Ah the "Look at the way she was dressed, she was asking for it" logic so loved by morons and degenerates.

 

[Pete Rose]

sounds legit.

 

[Sachin136]

I can prove everything I said. There is proof that US government was complicit in 9/11.

I want EVERYBODY on Pakpassion to watch the following links

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3xgjxJwedA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWLis-TVB2w



If you donot have the time as the videos are long, the transcripts are in the below links

https://www.corbettreport.com/episode-308-911-trillions-follow-the-money/

https://www.corbettreport.com/episode-280-who-was-really-behind-the-911-attacks/

Please watch/read
thank you

Bro, Im the last person you need to inform on this.

Yes 911 was a false flag operation in order to invade lands in the middle east for the resources. It was also a great thing for Israel, as admitted by them, helping them to steal more land and using the excuse of fighting terroism and pretending to be victims.

9/11 conspiracy theorists are on this forum... What next, flat earthers? Anti vaxxers?

 

[warcry]

9/11 conspiracy theorists are on this forum... What next, flat earthers? Anti vaxxers?

I not only make a claim, but i give proof. evidence has been collected by journalists from credible sources to back my claim

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3xgjxJwedA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWLis-TVB2w

 

[Chief Destroyer]

Yeah, we are the ones behind mass media propaganda while they go to Muslim countries and commit mass murder and no one bats an eye.

 

[KingKhanWC]

9/11 conspiracy theorists are on this forum... What next, flat earthers? Anti vaxxers?

lol. This is a typical cop out by those who want to shut down debate on 911. False flags are not a consipracy, these are real events done by governments. Flat Earth and rest are nothing lilke this. Fancy a debate on 911? I doubt it.

 

[Technics 1210]

lol. This is a typical cop out by those who want to shut down debate on 911. False flags are not a consipracy, these are real events done by governments. Flat Earth and rest are nothing lilke this. Fancy a debate on 911? I doubt it.

Lavon Affair. One of many proven false flags to the extent the Israeli government had to apologize.

People are afraid to debate because there's a chance the debate will shatter their blindly held views.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Lavon Affair. One of many proven false flags to the extent the Israeli government had to apologize.

People are afraid to debate because there's a chance the debate will shatter their blindly held views.

Also Mumbai attacks imo. Being Indian it would be difficult for him/her to accept this . The aim is to start confilicts claiming they are justified. Only difference is Yanks went ahead after 911 but Indians bottled it and sent dossiers instead.

 

[Technics 1210]

Also Mumbai attacks imo. Being Indian it would be difficult for him/her to accept this . The aim is to start confilicts claiming they are justified. Only difference is Yanks went ahead after 911 but Indians bottled it and sent dossiers instead.

Oh I agree, just pointing out false flags are indeed real, and have been exposed in the past by both governments, the media, and release of declassified files. Yet they still believe what they want without questioning.

 

[PakLFC]

Yes Muslim's are somewhat to blame as well. The preachers and their supporters who back extremism must also be held to task. The media also highlights Muslim terrorism more then other ones, no one called the New Zealand attacks "Christian terrorism" despite the perpetrator having historical events of so called Christian victories printed on his rifle. There are double standards no doubt about it.

 

[troodon]

I have seen the arguments of many Ex-Muslims and people like Sam Harris and also tens of videos of Hyde Park in arguments between Muslims and Christians.

There are verses in Quran and Hadith that makes non-muslims nervous and edgy.

All of the below from Sahih Bukhari.

Volume 3, Book 43, Number 656 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts).
This shows that Jizya can be applied on Kafirs.

Volume 3, Book 47, Number 803 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira
Allah's Apostle said, "The Prophet Abraham migrated with Sarah. The people (of the town where they migrated) gave her Ajar (i.e. Hajar). Sarah returned and said to Abraham, "Do you know that Allah has humiliated that pagan and he has given a slave-girl for my service?"
Clearly shows that Slavery is permitted by Allah.

Volume 1, Book 8, Number 387 :
Narrated by Anas bin Malik
Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah." Narrated Maimun ibn Siyah that he asked Anas bin Malik, "O Abu Hamza! What makes the life and property of a person sacred?" He replied, "Whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah', faces our Qibla during the prayers, prays like us and eats our slaughtered animal, then he is a Muslim, and has got the same rights and obligations as other Muslims have."

Basically this verse is saying that you have to fight unbelievers till they accept Allah and do like Muslims do.

Volume 2, Book 23, Number 483 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira
When Allah's Apostle died and Abu Bakr became the caliph some Arabs renegade (reverted to disbelief) (Abu Bakr decided to declare war against them), 'Umar, said to Abu Bakr, "How can you fight with these people although Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight the people till they say: "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and whoever said it then he will save his life and property from me except on trespassing the law (rights and conditions for which he will be punished justly), and his accounts will be with Allah.' " Abu Bakr said, "By Allah! I will fight those who differentiate between the prayer and the Zakat as Zakat is the compulsory right to be taken from the property (according to Allah's orders) By Allah! If they refuse to pay me even a she-kid which they used to pay at the time of Allah's Apostle . I would fight with them for withholding it" Then 'Umar said, "By Allah, it was nothing, but Allah opened Abu Bakr's chest towards the decision (to fight) and I came to know that his decision was right."
Same as above

Volume 4, Book 56, Number 787 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira
The Prophet said, "The Hour will not be established till you fight a nation wearing hairy shoes, and till you fight the Turks, who will have small eyes, red faces and flat noses; and their faces will be like flat shields. And you will find that the best people are those who hate responsibility of ruling most of all till they are chosen to be the rulers. And the people are of different natures: The best in the pre-lslamic period are the best in Islam. A time will come when any of you will love to see me rather than to have his family and property doubled."
This is Racist. NO other way of putting it.


Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

لاَ تَبْدَءُوا الْيَهُودَ وَلاَ النَّصَارَى بِالسَّلاَمِ فَإِذَا لَقِيتُمْ أَحَدَهُمْ فِي طَرِيقٍ فَاضْطَرُّوهُ إِلَى أَضْيَقِهِ

Do not initiate greetings with the Jews and Christians. When you meet any of them in the road, then make him take its narrowest path.

Source: Sahih Muslim 2167, Grade: Sahih

These are the things I can quickly search. WIth these Quotes from Prophet Muhammed, it does send wrong signals to non-muslims about the intentions of Muslims. It does not take much to do research on above things and many people are coming to know about these things in Quran and Hadith.

Most Muslims obviously do not follow these word to word, but the fact that they are mentioned in the holy texts and Hadith does create a lot of doubt among non-believers.

 

[Tubs]

Yes Muslim's are somewhat to blame as well. The preachers and their supporters who back extremism must also be held to task. The media also highlights Muslim terrorism more then other ones, no one called the New Zealand attacks "Christian terrorism" despite the perpetrator having historical events of so called Christian victories printed on his rifle. There are double standards no doubt about it.

I agree with everything, apart from 'Christian terrorism'. He was a white nationalist, but was he Christian? If he was, I don't think he used Christianity as a justification. I think it should be seen as 'white nationalist/supremacist terrorism'. Obviously, if he did invoke a religious reason then I am wrong, I just don't remember him doing so.

 

[Tubs]

I have seen the arguments of many Ex-Muslims and people like Sam Harris and also tens of videos of Hyde Park in arguments between Muslims and Christians.

There are verses in Quran and Hadith that makes non-muslims nervous and edgy.

All of the below from Sahih Bukhari.

Volume 3, Book 43, Number 656 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira
Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, and abolish the Jizya tax. Money will be in abundance so that nobody will accept it (as charitable gifts).
This shows that Jizya can be applied on Kafirs.

Volume 3, Book 47, Number 803 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira
Allah's Apostle said, "The Prophet Abraham migrated with Sarah. The people (of the town where they migrated) gave her Ajar (i.e. Hajar). Sarah returned and said to Abraham, "Do you know that Allah has humiliated that pagan and he has given a slave-girl for my service?"
Clearly shows that Slavery is permitted by Allah.

Volume 1, Book 8, Number 387 :
Narrated by Anas bin Malik
Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and their reckoning will be with Allah." Narrated Maimun ibn Siyah that he asked Anas bin Malik, "O Abu Hamza! What makes the life and property of a person sacred?" He replied, "Whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah', faces our Qibla during the prayers, prays like us and eats our slaughtered animal, then he is a Muslim, and has got the same rights and obligations as other Muslims have."

Basically this verse is saying that you have to fight unbelievers till they accept Allah and do like Muslims do.

Volume 2, Book 23, Number 483 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira
When Allah's Apostle died and Abu Bakr became the caliph some Arabs renegade (reverted to disbelief) (Abu Bakr decided to declare war against them), 'Umar, said to Abu Bakr, "How can you fight with these people although Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight the people till they say: "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and whoever said it then he will save his life and property from me except on trespassing the law (rights and conditions for which he will be punished justly), and his accounts will be with Allah.' " Abu Bakr said, "By Allah! I will fight those who differentiate between the prayer and the Zakat as Zakat is the compulsory right to be taken from the property (according to Allah's orders) By Allah! If they refuse to pay me even a she-kid which they used to pay at the time of Allah's Apostle . I would fight with them for withholding it" Then 'Umar said, "By Allah, it was nothing, but Allah opened Abu Bakr's chest towards the decision (to fight) and I came to know that his decision was right."
Same as above

Volume 4, Book 56, Number 787 :
Narrated by Abu Huraira
The Prophet said, "The Hour will not be established till you fight a nation wearing hairy shoes, and till you fight the Turks, who will have small eyes, red faces and flat noses; and their faces will be like flat shields. And you will find that the best people are those who hate responsibility of ruling most of all till they are chosen to be the rulers. And the people are of different natures: The best in the pre-lslamic period are the best in Islam. A time will come when any of you will love to see me rather than to have his family and property doubled."
This is Racist. NO other way of putting it.


Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

لاَ تَبْدَءُوا الْيَهُودَ وَلاَ النَّصَارَى بِالسَّلاَمِ فَإِذَا لَقِيتُمْ أَحَدَهُمْ فِي طَرِيقٍ فَاضْطَرُّوهُ إِلَى أَضْيَقِهِ

Do not initiate greetings with the Jews and Christians. When you meet any of them in the road, then make him take its narrowest path.

Source: Sahih Muslim 2167, Grade: Sahih

These are the things I can quickly search. WIth these Quotes from Prophet Muhammed, it does send wrong signals to non-muslims about the intentions of Muslims. It does not take much to do research on above things and many people are coming to know about these things in Quran and Hadith.

Most Muslims obviously do not follow these word to word, but the fact that they are mentioned in the holy texts and Hadith does create a lot of doubt among non-believers.

I'm no fan of Islam, and I am an ex Muslim, but to be fair, Judeo-Christian scriptures are quite bad too. I think the issue is that there are more fundamentalist Muslims than any other religion (not meaning terrorist in this context, just very literalist interpretations), which is a bigger issue than the scripture itself. One can argue about the IDF, but I think that's definitely more about politics than scripture.

 

[PakLFC]

I agree with everything, apart from 'Christian terrorism'. He was a white nationalist, but was he Christian? If he was, I don't think he used Christianity as a justification. I think it should be seen as 'white nationalist/supremacist terrorism'. Obviously, if he did invoke a religious reason then I am wrong, I just don't remember him doing so.

He had so called Christian victories printed on his rifle but may not know much about the Gospel or Bible. He may not be a believing Christian then again neither are the many Muslim's the west blames for terrorism. They never understood Islam either yet the media makes it sounds as if Islam is to be blamed for their actions. This is also hypocrisy that Christianity is not blamed when a nominal Christian kills but Islam is when a nominal Muslim does the same.

 

[Tubs]

He had so called Christian victories printed on his rifle but may not know much about the Gospel or Bible. He may not be a believing Christian then again neither are the many Muslim's the west blames for terrorism. They never understood Islam either yet the media makes it sounds as if Islam is to be blamed for their actions. This is also hypocrisy that Christianity is not blamed when a nominal Christian kills but Islam is when a nominal Muslim does the same.

Hmm right, I guess the most incriminating thing for Islamic terror is the shouting of 'Allahu Akbar'. Christians don't really have an equivalent I suppose. A lot of the Islamic terrorists do cite the Quran, I wonder if this guy did with the Bible. I know that Fraser Anning idiot did when he justified the attack.

 

[PakLFC]

Hmm right, I guess the most incriminating thing for Islamic terror is the shouting of 'Allahu Akbar'. Christians don't really have an equivalent I suppose. A lot of the Islamic terrorists do cite the Quran, I wonder if this guy did with the Bible. I know that Fraser Anning idiot did when he justified the attack.

They pick and choose quotes from the Qur'an to further their agenda. Some Christians do shout "Hallelujah" before taking an innocent life! He probably did read a lot on previous war's before deciding to take innocent lives.

 

[Tubs]

They pick and choose quotes from the Qur'an to further their agenda. Some Christians do shout "Hallelujah" before taking an innocent life! He probably did read a lot on previous war's before deciding to take innocent lives.

Oh I didn't know that(regarding Hallelujah), weird. I think this is the issue of having sacred texts. They are all from a previous time, and cannot be timeless guides for all of humanity. Yes there are good parts and bad parts, but the good parts can't cover up the bad, violent parts.

Obviously, this is all my opinion and I am not trying to change yours, I just do think the interpretive nature of texts is a driving force in extremism (of any religion).

 

[Sachin136]

Also Mumbai attacks imo. Being Indian it would be difficult for him/her to accept this . The aim is to start confilicts claiming they are justified. Only difference is Yanks went ahead after 911 but Indians bottled it and sent dossiers instead.

Agreed (not about the utterly idiotic conspiracy theory which deserves no response, but the other part). Previous Indian governments were too docile and were hardly able to carry out an effective response. That is the reason for the situation we have today.

 

[sshakir411]

Islamophobia has many drivers and Muslims are just one part of it.

 

[Technics 1210]

Bush says God told me to invade Iraq.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bush-god-told-me-to-invade-iraq-6262644.html

This is worse than shouting any phrase before an attack.

Let's not pretend other religions do not have their fair shares of extremist nutters; they just operate at a different level but deep down vow to protect, preserve, and promote their religion. The world continues to rue Bush's faithful desicion in 2003, thanks to his belief in Christianity.

 

[Tubs]

Bush says God told me to invade Iraq.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bush-god-told-me-to-invade-iraq-6262644.html

This is worse than shouting any phrase before an attack.

Let's not pretend other religions do not have their fair shares of extremist nutters; they just operate at a different level but deep down vow to protect, preserve, and promote their religion. The world continues to rue Bush's faithful desicion in 2003, thanks to his belief in Christianity.

Blair said the same about Iraq too.
Anyone who denies Christian extremism is stupid.
While Islamic extremism is the most common today, let's not forget the atrocities that the Church committed pre-20th century.

 

[Pakistanian]

Yes, lets blame the victim.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I do not believe in the term "islamophobia"... Islam is an idea and like all ideas it can be criticized. The word to use should be "Muslimophobia".

The thread question is "Should muslim's be blamed"... The short answer is NO. The long answer is that those muslims who support archaic ideas like Stoning, decapitation etc etc can be blamed.

But it's often the innocent Muslims who end up as victims in the backlash against Islam as an idea. But since you prefer not to have a term like Islamophobia, I guess you can just rebrand them as anonymous collateral damage.

 

[Markhor]

There have been issues with Muslims integrating into western societies which I commented on in another thread.

However I'd attribute the recent rise of Islamophobia to the growth of a toxic internet subculture that sees white, angry, misanthropic, racist young men on sites like Reddit, 4Chan, Brietbart and YouTube where they reinforce each others' prejudices. With ethnic minorities being afforded more rights and opportunities in the west, these folks think white males are "oppressed" and under siege, and facing a "white genocide". This "white rage" and sense of loss of privilege has been egged on and exploited by opportunitistic far-right politicians like Trump, Le Pen, Salvini and others.

In some ways social media has carried on from mainstream media, particularly the print press here in the UK, which disproportionately target Muslims.

The authorities need to crackdown on online hate sites and ensure the social media companies not only impr9ve content moderation but change their algorithms to prevent users from seeing extremist material as suggested content.

 

[tonmoy]

But it's often the innocent Muslims who end up as victims in the backlash against Islam as an idea. But since you prefer not to have a term like Islamophobia, I guess you can just rebrand them as anonymous collateral damage.

I am against all forms of anti muslim bigotry. But does opposing punishments like stoning amputation decapitation and such makes me islamophobic? I am criticizing Islam the same way I would criticize other archaic practices.
"Islamophobia" is just a made up word used to stifle any criticism of Islam.
I am for Humanity, so when innocent muslims are subjected to attack, I would not hesitate to speak against it.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I am against all forms of anti muslim bigotry. But does opposing punishments like stoning amputation decapitation and such makes me islamophobic? I am criticizing Islam the same way I would criticize other archaic practices.
"Islamophobia" is just a made up word used to stifle any criticism of Islam.
I am for Humanity, so when innocent muslims are subjected to attack, I would not hesitate to speak against it.

Islamophobe is a term most often used for those who inflict or incite violence against Muslims, not against those who are presenting reasoned criticism of the religion itself. In the same way anti-semitism would be referring more to hostility towards present day jews rather than the historical contents of the Torah.

 

[Tubs]

Islamophobe is a term most often used for those who inflict or incite violence against Muslims, not against those who are presenting reasoned criticism of the religion itself. In the same way anti-semitism would be referring more to hostility towards present day jews rather than the historical contents of the Torah.

The distinction is that Anti-Semitism is historic, and that Jews are a race.

Also I think you were a bit harsh to that poster who said 'Islamaphobia' is not real (I agree), when 2 lines after he said that anti-Muslim bigotry is real. 'Islamaphobia' suggests that any criticism of Islam is discriminatory. Anti-Muslim bigotry is discrimination against people, which is wrong and rightly is condemned. Anti-Muslim bigotry is more like anti-Semitism, not Islamaphobia.

 

[troodon]

I'm no fan of Islam, and I am an ex Muslim, but to be fair, Judeo-Christian scriptures are quite bad too. I think the issue is that there are more fundamentalist Muslims than any other religion (not meaning terrorist in this context, just very literalist interpretations), which is a bigger issue than the scripture itself. One can argue about the IDF, but I think that's definitely more about politics than scripture.

All religions have their fair share of violence, but nobody in this day takes those stories seriously like Muslims.

To me Jainism is the only religion that is completely peaceful.

 

[Ronaldo7]

All religions have their fair share of violence, but nobody in this day takes those stories seriously like Muslims.

To me Jainism is the only religion that is completely peaceful.

Due to it's size. It only has like 4 million followers and most are in India. What could it possibly do?

 

[Ronaldo7]

Due to it's size. It only has like 4 million followers and most are in India. What could it possibly do?

But saying this, they do believe every religion is equal and they support animals as well. If you look at their teachings then they are peaceful but that can be argued for many other religions too.

 

[Pak Warrior]

I originally agreed with [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] on this, but now disagree. My rationale thinking is that true Islam doenst support terrorism, those that carry out attacks in the name of Islam are mislead and not true Muslim.

 

[Ronaldo7]

I originally agreed with [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] on this, but now disagree. My rationale thinking is that true Islam doenst support terrorism, those that carry out attacks in the name of Islam are mislead and not true Muslim.

People don't accept that though. Ignorance is so real. It's about "i saw someone blow someone else up, they were muslim, so all muslims are terrorists". They don't care about what u say, which is the problem.

How was islam perceived as before 9/11? It's a genuine question.

 

[Pak Warrior]

People don't accept that though. Ignorance is so real. It's about "i saw someone blow someone else up, they were muslim, so all muslims are terrorists". They don't care about what u say, which is the problem.

How was islam perceived as before 9/11? It's a genuine question.

It's TRUE, a few bad apples spoil the image of rest billion good Muslim people. I dont know what the world wants us to do, we as muslims have condemned terror and those that support terror but they are not wanting to see this. ImThis can be seen as racist, because your labeling whole group of people as terrorists, it's not sensible. The media is the one responsible for fueling Islamophobia, because if white people dont know about Islam and first thing they told is Muslim is terrorists then that's media fault. If people already know good Muslim people and understand that people is people regardless of race and religion, then they will not be influenced so much.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

The distinction is that Anti-Semitism is historic, and that Jews are a race.

Also I think you were a bit harsh to that poster who said 'Islamaphobia' is not real (I agree), when 2 lines after he said that anti-Muslim bigotry is real. 'Islamaphobia' suggests that any criticism of Islam is discriminatory. Anti-Muslim bigotry is discrimination against people, which is wrong and rightly is condemned. Anti-Muslim bigotry is more like anti-Semitism, not Islamaphobia.

I think this is just using semantics to downplay abuse of Muslims. Anti-semitism is not historic, according to jews themselves, it is very much on the rise. You should read the Times UK where it is covered in some detail. Also I have always considered Judaism to be a religion so not sure how you are now describing Jews as a race.

But no real surprise that non-Mulims are keen to eliminate the term Islamophobia especially those who come from a certain background.

 

[Robert]

People don't accept that though. Ignorance is so real. It's about "i saw someone blow someone else up, they were muslim, so all muslims are terrorists". They don't care about what u say, which is the problem.

How was islam perceived as before 9/11? It's a genuine question.

Challenge them with “Have you ever met a Muslim who didn’t blow someone else up?” That will force them to look inside themselves for examples of peaceful Muslims. They might think - oh, there’s my dentist or that lady at the library or those blokes in the garage who put tyres on my car.

IIRC, before 9/11 there was no Islamophobia in the UK, they were thought of like another other BAME people. Of course there was racism, but the terror association had not been drawn. A lot of young Muslims started getting political in colleges in response to the War on Terror and that added fuel to the blaze. Then 7/7 happened, then Rotherham and all the other paedophilic gang cases - hundreds of these offenders - further besmirching respectable Muslims.

 

[cricketjoshila]

I dont think its islamophobia.Rather its fear of its followers. Partly muslims are responsible and partly its propoganda.

There are various reasons for it.

One of them being the fact that there is hardly any freedom of religion in a muslim majority country.

This in turn gives rise to the second reason, muslims from these countries find it hard to assimilate in the new liberal culture of a non muslim majority country. This leads to a clash of ideals.

Unfortunately, muslims are in a state of war with almost every major religious group in the world. Jews,Hindus,Christianity,Buddhism. The reasons for these wars are political, but at the start of these wars, muslims gave it a religious colour so that more muslims rally to these wars in the name if religion. Thats has been counterproductive as it has led to Muslim vs the rest propoganda in rest of the world.

Lastly its 9/11 and the spate of terror attacks in its aftermath which has turned the opinion of the ordinary citizen. Then we have had fundoos who defend these attacks as retaliation to some war or as false flags to get some economic gains or as an act to avenge an apparent insult.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I dont think its islamophobia.Rather its fear of its followers. Partly muslims are responsible and partly its propoganda.

There are various reasons for it.

One of them being the fact that there is hardly any freedom of religion in a muslim majority country.

This in turn gives rise to the second reason, muslims from these countries find it hard to assimilate in the new liberal culture of a non muslim majority country. This leads to a clash of ideals.

Unfortunately, muslims are in a state of war with almost every major religious group in the world. Jews,Hindus,Christianity,Buddhism. The reasons for these wars are political, but at the start of these wars, muslims gave it a religious colour so that more muslims rally to these wars in the name if religion. Thats has been counterproductive as it has led to Muslim vs the rest propoganda in rest of the world.

Lastly its 9/11 and the spate of terror attacks in its aftermath which has turned the opinion of the ordinary citizen. Then we have had fundoos who defend these attacks as retaliation to some war or as false flags to get some economic gains or as an act to avenge an apparent insult.

There is freedom of religion in majority Muslim countries, don't know where you are getting this from. Neither are they at a state of war with almost every major religious group in the world. Muslims have also assimilated quite successfully in non-Muslim countries. Do you actually have some basis for any of these claims?

 

[cricketjoshila]

There is freedom of religion in majority Muslim countries, don't know where you are getting this from. Neither are they at a state of war with almost every major religious group in the world. Muslims have also assimilated quite successfully in non-Muslim countries. Do you actually have some basis for any of these claims?

At the present time,

Muslim nations are in a state of conflict with Jews in Israel, Hindus in India, Christian majority US/NATO in Syria Afghanistan previously in Iraq and ISIS. Then there is a conflict with buddhists in Myanmar.

All of these are political issues. But at the start of these conflicts, muslims gave it a religious colour to rally muslims around the world to their cause. This has now become a propoganda of muslims vs the rest.

When i said muslims do not assimilate, i didnot mean every one. But there is a signifucant number who dont. Thats why you hear about sharia patrols, burkha bans, niqab bans, demands of halal food in schools etc etc.

Minority religion hardly has rights in muslim nations, exception being Turkey and Indonesia.

See i am not here to fight on this issue. I am only putting out my views as how the perception is to a non muslim.

 

[miandadrules]

Blaming the victim is a standard operating procedure for bigots.

Though one must note that in the Muslim vernacular it’s only Islamaphobia until it’s the Muslim perpetrating the bigotry, then it’s just textual justification.

Muslims are significant perpetrators of anti-Muslim bigotry.

So, they are not to blame for being the victims of anti-Muslim bigotry but many liberally indulge in it, completely oblivious to the hypocrisy.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

At the present time,

Muslim nations are in a state of conflict with Jews in Israel, Hindus in India, Christian majority US/NATO in Syria Afghanistan previously in Iraq and ISIS. Then there is a conflict with buddhists in Myanmar.

All of these are political issues. But at the start of these conflicts, muslims gave it a religious colour to rally muslims around the world to their cause. This has now become a propoganda of muslims vs the rest.

When i said muslims do not assimilate, i didnot mean every one. But there is a signifucant number who dont. Thats why you hear about sharia patrols, burkha bans, niqab bans, demands of halal food in schools etc etc.

Minority religion hardly has rights in muslim nations, exception being Turkey and Indonesia.

See i am not here to fight on this issue. I am only putting out my views as how the perception is to a non muslim.

This is a bit like saying Jews were in conflict with Nazi Germany. No surprise that you ended that by giving the example of the Rohingyas being in conflict with Buddhists in Myanamar. Says it all about where you are coming from.

Sharia patrols you are describing was a handful of trolls who were putting stickers on lamposts about 15 years ago. They don't represent your average Muslim abroad any more than a Hindu death cult child sacrificer would represent Hindus in India.

Minority religions do have rights in Islamic countries, you can't just say they don't and expect people to accept your slander without question.

 

[cricketjoshila]

This is a bit like saying Jews were in conflict with Nazi Germany. No surprise that you ended that by giving the example of the Rohingyas being in conflict with Buddhists in Myanamar. Says it all about where you are coming from.

Sharia patrols you are describing was a handful of trolls who were putting stickers on lamposts about 15 years ago. They don't represent your average Muslim abroad any more than a Hindu death cult child sacrificer would represent Hindus in India.

Minority religions do have rights in Islamic countries, you can't just say they don't and expect people to accept your slander without question.

Have you heard about ARSA? Do you know that Rohingyas launched a armed separatist movement to cede from Myanmar? They even tried to get M A Jinnah to get them included in Pakistan. Just because a area is muslim dominated, doesnot mean they can cede from the rest of the country.

Sharia patrols were much more than what you described.People were arrested and jailed for it. Thats only one example.

So you are saying minority religion have equal rights in muslim countries?

 

[CricketCartoons]

Have had some horrible experiences with Muslims, so always wary of them. One was a uber driver who cancelled my ride when I told him my name and where I wanted to go. Other was a uber driver who I had just scolded, but when I was getting down, with a smirk he pointed out that I had left my phone on the seat, just to humiliate me. Also my favourite hindu song was made impure because these three people had conspired to create it: singer Muhammad Rafi, music director Naushad and lyricist Shakeel Badayuni.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Have you heard about ARSA? Do you know that Rohingyas launched a armed separatist movement to cede from Myanmar? They even tried to get M A Jinnah to get them included in Pakistan. Just because a area is muslim dominated, doesnot mean they can cede from the rest of the country.

Sharia patrols were much more than what you described.People were arrested and jailed for it. Thats only one example.

So you are saying minority religion have equal rights in muslim countries?

1. Not interested in Hindutva version of Rohingya tragedy, neutral countries have verified the Rohngya were the victims.

2. Please share a reputable source which verifies your claim that Sharia patrols were widespread.

3. I refuted your claim that there was hardly any freedom of religion in Muslim countries. Instead of trying to move the goalposts, you need to clarify why you feel there is "hardly any freedom of religon".

Don't throw around misleading slurs slyly hoping you won't be challenged. You will.

 

[Tubs]

I think this is just using semantics to downplay abuse of Muslims. Anti-semitism is not historic, according to jews themselves, it is very much on the rise. You should read the Times UK where it is covered in some detail. Also I have always considered Judaism to be a religion so not sure how you are now describing Jews as a race.

But no real surprise that non-Mulims are keen to eliminate the term Islamophobia especially those who come from a certain background.

Why does 'anti-Muslim sentiment' sound 'downplayed' compared to 'Islamaphobia'?

One is a belief, and the other are people.

Jews are a race, Judaism is a religion. There are Jews which are atheists (normally called Secular Jews). I'm pretty sure there are studies showing them to be an ethnicity (if race is the wrong word to use).

And if you're referring to me being an 'ex-Muslim', then that has nothing to do with it. I dislike Islamic ideology (as I dislike Christian and Jewish ideology too), but I could never hold contempt or wish suffering among a group of people (my whole family are Muslim). Sure, maybe some anti-Muslim people are trying to abolish the term 'Islamaphobia', but my issue is mainly to do with separating people from the ideology. As I mentioned, Islam can be criticised as an ideology can, that shouldn't be 'Islamaphobic'. Any attack done on Muslims is disgusting, but I don't think calling it an attack on Islam is very good, it is an attack on Muslims as they are people.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Why does 'anti-Muslim sentiment' sound 'downplayed' compared to 'Islamaphobia'?

One is a belief, and the other are people.

Jews are a race, Judaism is a religion. There are Jews which are atheists (normally called Secular Jews). I'm pretty sure there are studies showing them to be an ethnicity (if race is the wrong word to use).

And if you're referring to me being an 'ex-Muslim', then that has nothing to do with it. I dislike Islamic ideology (as I dislike Christian and Jewish ideology too), but I could never hold contempt or wish suffering among a group of people (my whole family are Muslim). Sure, maybe some anti-Muslim people are trying to abolish the term 'Islamaphobia', but my issue is mainly to do with separating people from the ideology. As I mentioned, Islam can be criticised as an ideology can, that shouldn't be 'Islamaphobic'. Any attack done on Muslims is disgusting, but I don't think calling it an attack on Islam is very good, it is an attack on Muslims as they are people.

I have no idea that you are ex-Muslim/Hindutva/Sikh whatever, but in any case that would explain the semantics. Islamophobia is an acceptable enough terms for neutrals without a chip on their shoulder, neither would they need to distinguish Jews as a race rather than a religion to make some pedantic point.

Maybe you could write to the BBC or similar organisations and see if they will give your argument against Islamophobia some consideration, for me I am happy to go with the current usage of the term.

 

[The_Odd_One]

Absolutely

Muslims must make an effort to integrate with the modern world rather than living in isolation and trying to emulate things from the previous millennia. Things like hijab and mentioning God in every second sentence has no place in the modern world.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Absolutely

Muslims must make an effort to integrate with the modern world rather than living in isolation and trying to emulate things from the previous millennia. Things like hijab and mentioning God in every second sentence has no place in the modern world.

Please define integration.

Why doesn't covering ones head have no place in the modern world?

 

[The_Odd_One]

Please define integration.

Why doesn't covering ones head have no place in the modern world?

You need to see how Muslims live before asking me this integration question.

Covering one's head when its cold makes sense but it does not make sense when a 60 years old auntie struggling to walk tries to prevent others from looking at her hair because her religion told so.

 

[KingKhanWC]

You need to see how Muslims live before asking me this integration question.

Covering one's head when its cold makes sense but it does not make sense when a 60 years old auntie struggling to walk tries to prevent others from looking at her hair because her religion told so.

I would like to know your defintion of integration. You used the term so explain it's meaning in the context you wrote.

Do you enjoy looking at 60 year old womens heads? Some sort of fetish I assume?

 

[tonmoy]

I would like to know your defintion of integration. You used the term so explain it's meaning in the context you wrote.

Do you enjoy looking at 60 year old womens heads? Some sort of fetish I assume?

Integration means accepting the society and not fighting to change it to cater to your own belief. For example, there are protests in regions in UK and Canada with parents demanding that their kids should not be given sex education or LGBT education. That is opposite to integration. In some cases the parents are refusing to send their kids to school.

 

[tonmoy]

Islamophobia is an acceptable enough terms for neutrals without a chip on their shoulder, neither would they need to distinguish Jews as a race rather than a religion to make some pedantic point.

Maybe you could write to the BBC or similar organisations and see if they will give your argument against Islamophobia some consideration, for me I am happy to go with the current usage of the term.

Islamophobia is NOT an acceptable term since it confuses legitimate argument against Islamic ideology to anti muslim bigotry.
I have problems with Islamic ideology but I have no problems with Muslims. Big difference if you ask me.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Integration means accepting the society and not fighting to change it to cater to your own belief. For example, there are protests in regions in UK and Canada with parents demanding that their kids should not be given sex education or LGBT education. That is opposite to integration. In some cases the parents are refusing to send their kids to school.

No this is democracy. Not sure if you live in India but in the UK people have a legal right to object to any aspect of society as long as they dont break any laws.

 

[The_Odd_One]

I would like to know your defintion of integration. You used the term so explain it's meaning in the context you wrote.

Do you enjoy looking at 60 year old womens heads? Some sort of fetish I assume?

Fetish? I feel pity for such people. I do not want to be rude but most of the women who I see wearing hijabs are not that great looking to begin with.

I will give you the context of living in a non-Islamic country. Many parents do not want their kids to hang out with non-Muslim kids. They are told repeatedly that celebration of occasions like the Halloween, Christmas, etc is a sin. Little girls are forced to wear hijabs and boys are dragged for the memorization of the Koran. It is mentioned each and every day that the life style of foreigners are different from their. I have even seen people who would not go to restaurants serving alcohol, though they are completely fine with going to the grocery store selling more bottles of alcohol. These are just a few examples.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Fetish? I feel pity for such people. I do not want to be rude but most of the women who I see wearing hijabs are not that great looking to begin with.

I will give you the context of living in a non-Islamic country. Many parents do not want their kids to hang out with non-Muslim kids. They are told repeatedly that celebration of occasions like the Halloween, Christmas, etc is a sin. Little girls are forced to wear hijabs and boys are dragged for the memorization of the Koran. It is mentioned each and every day that the life style of foreigners are different from their. I have even seen people who would not go to restaurants serving alcohol, though they are completely fine with going to the grocery store selling more bottles of alcohol. These are just a few examples.

Im sure you are a model yourself.

I dont care about your parents or you personal life. Let's stick to the topic.

Why does covering your head have no place in the modern world, as you claimed?

 

[Ronaldo7]

Im sure you are a model yourself.

I dont care about your parents or you personal life. Let's stick to the topic.

Why does covering your head have no place in the modern world, as you claimed?

I've never seen a single person criticise sikhs for wearing turbans. Not that they should criticise for something like that but they always criticise muslims

 

[The_Odd_One]

Im sure you are a model yourself.

I dont care about your parents or you personal life. Let's stick to the topic.

Why does covering your head have no place in the modern world, as you claimed?

I am not a model but I do not pretend to be one by not letting anyone see my hair as if others are dying to see them.

Where did you read "my parents" in my post? I am lucky to have moderate parents who did not force any such thing on me.

Those are my observations from how most of the practicing Muslims raise their kids in the US. It seems like most Muslim families have their own way of life in which completely contradicts with the western culture.

Covering your head has no place in the modern world because it is an ancient practice with no usefulness just like wearing cowboy hats and boots is not an attire for the present time. In some cases, it is forced upon little girls which may qualify as child abuse.