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Aussie support bowlers in the 90s-2000s - Damien Fleming vs Michael Kasprowicz vs Jason Gillespie

proud_pakistani

proud_pakistani

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I really thought these 3 bowlers were fantastic and provided great support to legends like Mcgrath and Warne. I personally can't quite say one was better than the other.What do you guys think? Discuss
 
Damien Fleming was an awesome bowler. Very underrated. India would do anything for a bowler of his calibre to play for them. He could swing and used to bowl around 138-140k's.

Gillespie is a hit the deck bowler who could bowl some nasty deliveries every now and then. If I remember, he used to be a bit expensive.

Kasparowicz was an okay types bowler. Good line and length. Thats all. Not much threatening.

Over all for me, Damien Fleming > Gillespie > Kasp.
 
Gillespie was comfortably the best of the three.
 
Gillespie was at times as frightening as Mcgrath.. Extra bounce combined with pace made him difficult to score off from.
 
It's hard to tell perfectly. It can be argued that Gillespie and Kasprowicz fed of Mcgrath and Warne. Gillespie failed to do much when both Mcgrath and Warne were unavailable during Steve Waugh's final series as captain. Gillespie and Kasprowicz were the main reasons for the loss of the ashes in 2005 when Mcgrath was not available for 2 test matches.

But those guys would still add massive value to the present one dimensional Australian bowling attack.
 
Robert said:
Also Lee's scattergun bowling.
Click to expand...

He was the third main bowler Ponting turned too, he might have been expensive but Ponting had no choice but to use him in an aggressive wicket taking role because the likes of Gillespie and Kasprowicz where even more ineffective.
 
Damien Fleming was the one with most talent and skills among the three,but injuries finished him.

Thats why

Gillespie>Fleming>>>>>>Kasprowicz
 
Gillespie was a superb bowler, almost ATG level. By 2005 he was finished.

I'd rank him in the same class as Allan Donald, Courtney Walsh, Sir Wes Hall and John Snow.

Put differently, the only better Asian fast bowlers - ever - were Imran, Wasim and Waqar.

That's how good he was.
 
Junaids said:
Gillespie was a superb bowler, almost ATG level. By 2005 he was finished.

I'd rank him in the same class as Allan Donald, Courtney Walsh, Sir Wes Hall and John Snow.

Put differently, the only better Asian fast bowlers - ever - were Imran, Wasim and Waqar.

That's how good he was.
Click to expand...

With all due respect, i disagree

He was a very good bowler but not near the league of Allan Donald. Donald could dominate the opposition, Gillespie hardly ever did. Donald was the best test bowler in the world at one point, Gillespie was not
 
Junaids said:
Gillespie was a superb bowler, almost ATG level. By 2005 he was finished.

I'd rank him in the same class as Allan Donald, Courtney Walsh, Sir Wes Hall and John Snow.

Put differently, the only better Asian fast bowlers - ever - were Imran, Wasim and Waqar.

That's how good he was.
Click to expand...
Gillespie on the same level as Walsh, Donald and better than the likes of Kapil, Vaas, Zaheer from Asia. [emoji5] [emoji5] [emoji5]

Matlab Kuch bhi bol do...internet hai...hahaha

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
 
Fleming would have been a beast if injuires did not derail him equil to Dizzy Kasper was a tier or two below both.
 
AlphaFighter said:
It's hard to tell perfectly. It can be argued that Gillespie and Kasprowicz fed of Mcgrath and Warne. Gillespie failed to do much when both Mcgrath and Warne were unavailable during Steve Waugh's final series as captain. Gillespie and Kasprowicz were the main reasons for the loss of the ashes in 2005 when Mcgrath was not available for 2 test matches.

But those guys would still add massive value to the present one dimensional Australian bowling attack.
Click to expand...

Gillespie did well in Asia, a litmus test for pace bowlers. His bowling averages with or without McGrath are nearly the same. Gillespie fed off Mcgrath and Warne, but it is also true that both Mcgrath and Warne fed off Gillespie too. Without that third bowling option in Gillespie, Australia would not have been able to put sustained pressure on the opposition and would not be so far ahead of other teams.
 
Gillesppie was best among them. he could produce real gems now and then. He just kept coming back and back .

Never gave up , fought hard.
 
Indian_Supporter said:
Gillespie on the same level as Walsh, Donald and better than the likes of Kapil, Vaas, Zaheer from Asia. [emoji5] [emoji5] [emoji5]

Matlab Kuch bhi bol do...internet hai...hahaha

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Well obviously.

Kapil Dev and Zaheer Khan and Chaminda Vaas were only exceptional by Indian standards.

Zaheer averaged 33 with the ball, and the only places he averaged less than 28 were Bangladesh and Zimbabwe.

In contrast, Gillespie averaged 21 IN INDIA!
 
Junaids said:
Well obviously.

Kapil Dev and Zaheer Khan and Chaminda Vaas were only exceptional by Indian standards.

Zaheer averaged 33 with the ball, and the only places he averaged less than 28 were Bangladesh and Zimbabwe.

In contrast, Gillespie averaged 21 IN INDIA!
Click to expand...
Avg is not everything. Just bcoz Gillespie avg 21 in India does not make him ATG :facepalm:

Ricky Ponting also avgs 21 in India with bat. Will you not call him an ATG?

Few people think they know everything about cricket...sigh

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
 
Gillespie was one of those fellows who got a lot of nicks that didn't carry to skip.

Which suggests to me that Healy was a yard too far back to him.

I reckon if Healy had moved closer, Gillespie would average 22 in tests and be considered at least an Aussie great.
 
Gillespie was a fantastic bowler, probably the best seam position I've seen after McGrath/Ambrose and on par with Pollock.

He was good enough to lead the attack, but was overshadowed by McGrath and Warne.
 
Gillespie is definitely better than the Fleming and Michael.

But with big names around him, he was pretty much left in the dark.
 
Indian_Supporter said:
Avg is not everything. Just bcoz Gillespie avg 21 in India does not make him ATG :facepalm:

Ricky Ponting also avgs 21 in India with bat. Will you not call him an ATG?

Few people think they know everything about cricket...sigh

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

I didn't say that Gillespie was an ATG. I said that he was a level down from ATG fast bowlers, although still miles ahead of the likes of Kapil Dev, Anderson or Zaheer.

The ATG fast bowlers have averages between 20-24. Kapil Dev, Zaheer and Anderson average around 30 at the same time and against the same opposition against whom Dale Steyn averages 22.48.

But there is another intermediate group into which Jason Gillespie fits perfectly:

Jason Gillespie 259 wickets @ 26.13
Wes Hall 192 wickets @ 26.38
Shoaib Akhtar 178 wickets @ 25.69
Courtney Walsh 519 wickets @ 24.44
Bob Willis 325 wickets @ 25.20
 
Junaids said:
I didn't say that Gillespie was an ATG. I said that he was a level down from ATG fast bowlers, although still miles ahead of the likes of Kapil Dev, Anderson or Zaheer.

The ATG fast bowlers have averages between 20-24. Kapil Dev, Zaheer and Anderson average around 30 at the same time and against the same opposition against whom Dale Steyn averages 22.48.

But there is another intermediate group into which Jason Gillespie fits perfectly:

Jason Gillespie 259 wickets @ 26.13
Wes Hall 192 wickets @ 26.38
Shoaib Akhtar 178 wickets @ 25.69
Courtney Walsh 519 wickets @ 24.44
Bob Willis 325 wickets @ 25.20
Click to expand...

You cannot directly compare the averages of pace bowlers, some of who have played 70% of matches in Asia and some who have played 20% in Asia. You cannot directly compare the averages of bowlers who were lone warriors with bowlers who played in a good bowling team and hunted as a pack. Kapil Dev easily belongs to the intermediate group you mention, while Zaheer and Anderson don't.
 
IndianWillow said:
You cannot directly compare the averages of pace bowlers, some of who have played 70% of matches in Asia and some who have played 20% in Asia. You cannot directly compare the averages of bowlers who were lone warriors with bowlers who played in a good bowling team and hunted as a pack. Kapil Dev easily belongs to the intermediate group you mention, while Zaheer and Anderson don't.
Click to expand...

I beg to differ.

Jason Gillespie took:
33 wickets @ 21.72 in India
8 wickets @ 11.25 in Bangladesh

His bowling average was below 30 in 5 of the 8 countries in which he bowled.

Kapil Dev had a much worse record in India than Jason Gillespie: 219 wickets @ 26.49. He averaged below 30 in only 3 of the 9 countries in which he bowled.

Kapil Dev was a good fast bowler by Indian standards, but he was massively inferior to Jason Gillespie.
 
Indian_Supporter said:
Gillespie on the same level as Walsh, Donald and better than the likes of Kapil, Vaas, Zaheer from Asia. [emoji5] [emoji5] [emoji5]

Matlab Kuch bhi bol do...internet hai...hahaha

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Gillespie wasn't Donald standard but at his best he was equal to Walsh and better than Vaas and Zaheer
 
Junaids said:
I'd rank him in the same class as Allan Donald, Courtney Walsh, Sir Wes Hall and John Snow.
Click to expand...

Got him wrong with Donald though. Comparison with others is fine.

Donald was clearly better than the rest mentioned.
 
Convict said:
Gillespie wasn't Donald standard but at his best he was equal to Walsh and better than Vaas and Zaheer
Click to expand...
Long story short he was not. I have seen enough of Gillespie and he was below the league of Walsh, Vaas, Zak etc.

And few people comparing him with Kapil, Donald, Akhtar etc. :facepalm:

[MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] - Not sure why you are so stuck about Gillespie's performance in India. As I said before avg is not the only way to judge a player. Its also about overall impact and how long they were able to sustain in international cricket.

You yet to answer me about Ponting's avg in India.

Let me tell you something more about avg.

Shane Warne avgs 44 in India and his overall avg in Asia is 42.21. As a spinner he was a failure in conditions most suitable for spin bowling. So will you agree Warne was not a great bowler? Or will you agree that likes of Kumble, Mushy and Qadir were better spinners than Warne bcoz of their much supreme avg in Asia.

Nit picking of stats to justify your statement is not a way to prove who is a better bowler.

Ask any experts and anyone will say Walsh, Donald, Kapil, Akhtar, Vaas, Zak were better bowlers than Gillespie.

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
 
Last edited:
Junaids said:
Gillespie was a superb bowler, almost ATG level. By 2005 he was finished.

I'd rank him in the same class as Allan Donald, Courtney Walsh, Sir Wes Hall and John Snow.

Put differently, the only better Asian fast bowlers - ever - were Imran, Wasim and Waqar.

That's how good he was.
Click to expand...

He was a good bowler but to put him at par with Allan Donald is ridiculous. Allan Donald in his prime had very good pace and had the ability to trouble most batsmen. In terms of right arm pace bowlers of genuine pace in the 90s I would rate Waqar, Ambrose and Donald as the very best in that order.

You can argue a case for Walsh being at par with Gillespie though.
 
Walsh was still well ahead of Gillespie, come on, how can anyone claim these two are close? Walsh could walk through a team at his best, Gillespie was a superb support bowler but not someone capable of destroying the opposition.
 
hk031992 said:
Walsh was still well ahead of Gillespie, come on, how can anyone claim these two are close? Walsh could walk through a team at his best, Gillespie was a superb support bowler but not someone capable of destroying the opposition.
Click to expand...

Gillespie let Australia down a few times when he really had to step up. Steve Waughs final series comes to mind. The 2005 Ashes comes to mind as well.
 
Walsh had 22 five wicket hauls in 132 matches, one every 6 matches

Gillespie had 8 five wicket hauls in 71 matches, almost one in every 9 matches

Gillespie never took 10 wickets in a test match. Walsh did three times.

Walsh was a superb bowler, just a notch below Ambrose, McGrath, Akram, Younis and Donald.

Gillespie is a notch below Walsh IMO.
 
I liked Fleming. Very different from the other Aussie quicks who were tall hit the deck seamers. Fleming could bowl swing and I doubt he ever clocked even 90 mph but he always seemed to pluck wickets when you least expected him to with just enough pace, bounce and movement.

Gillespie was the better test match bowler though. No question.
 
Nikhil_cric said:
I liked Fleming. Very different from the other Aussie quicks who were tall hit the deck seamers. Fleming could bowl swing and I doubt he ever clocked even 90 mph but he always seemed to pluck wickets when you least expected him to with just enough pace, bounce and movement.

Gillespie was the better test match bowler though. No question.
Click to expand...

Gillespie Tests 259 wickets @26, ODIs 142 wickets @25
Fleming Tests 75 wickets @26, ODIs 134 wickets @25

Both superb bowlers. Also helps when you have McGrath, Lee or Warne bowling at the other end and a score of 600 to defend put up by Hayden, Langer, Ponting, Martin, Waugh, Waugh and Gilchrist.
 
Gillispie > Fleming > Kasprowicz.

Fleming was a very good swing bowler, similar to Chris Woakes.
 
 
Gillispie was inferior to both Kapil and Shoaib.

About same level to Philander and Broad.
 
Damien Flemming wasn't a support bowler. He was the frontline pacer in the mid 1990s until McGrath took over the role.

I don't know exactly how to rate the three.

Personally speaking, loved Kasproviks' bowling action but Tendulkar smashed him way too much to ever be taken seriously even though he was quite good.

Gillespi at his peak was fiersome but that peaked lasted a couple of years only. Besides, such a peak is very typical from Aussie Pacers when they start off fresh and athletic.

Flemming I thought was the most skilled and dependable. I will probably rate him ahead of both.
 
Kasprowicz was an average bowler.

Damien Fleming was the most skillful of the three. If he played for England, he would have taken 600 tests wickets.
 
Australian Bowling stats from 1990 to 2009 (min 50 wickets)
[table=class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Player [/td][td]Span [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Wkts [/td][td]Avg [/td][td]Econ [/td][td]SR [/td][td]5W [/td][td]10W [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]BA Reid [/td][td]1990-1992 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]51 [/td][td]18.58 [/td][td]2.59 [/td][td]43 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]2 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]GD McGrath [/td][td]1993-2007 [/td][td]124 [/td][td]563 [/td][td]21.64 [/td][td]2.49 [/td][td]51.9 [/td][td]29 [/td][td]3 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SR Clark [/td][td]2006-2009 [/td][td]24 [/td][td]94 [/td][td]23.86 [/td][td]2.61 [/td][td]54.7 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SK Warne [/td][td]1992-2007 [/td][td]145 [/td][td]708 [/td][td]25.41 [/td][td]2.65 [/td][td]57.4 [/td][td]37 [/td][td]10 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DW Fleming [/td][td]1994-2001 [/td][td]20 [/td][td]75 [/td][td]25.89 [/td][td]2.82 [/td][td]55 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]JN Gillespie [/td][td]1996-2006 [/td][td]71 [/td][td]259 [/td][td]26.13 [/td][td]2.85 [/td][td]54.9 [/td][td]8 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]CR Miller [/td][td]1998-2001 [/td][td]18 [/td][td]69 [/td][td]26.15 [/td][td]2.64 [/td][td]59.2 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MG Hughes [/td][td]1990-1994 [/td][td]33 [/td][td]140 [/td][td]26.32 [/td][td]2.83 [/td][td]55.6 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]CJ McDermott [/td][td]1991-1996 [/td][td]47 [/td][td]211 [/td][td]26.52 [/td][td]2.9 [/td][td]54.7 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]2 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]PR Reiffel [/td][td]1992-1998 [/td][td]35 [/td][td]104 [/td][td]26.96 [/td][td]2.62 [/td][td]61.5 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MG Johnson [/td][td]2007-2009 [/td][td]30 [/td][td]137 [/td][td]28.05 [/td][td]3.2 [/td][td]52.4 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]1 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SCG MacGill [/td][td]1998-2008 [/td][td]44 [/td][td]208 [/td][td]29.02 [/td][td]3.22 [/td][td]54 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]2 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]B Lee [/td][td]1999-2008 [/td][td]76 [/td][td]310 [/td][td]30.81 [/td][td]3.46 [/td][td]53.3 [/td][td]10 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]PM Siddle [/td][td]2008-2009 [/td][td]15 [/td][td]54 [/td][td]32.2 [/td][td]3.07 [/td][td]62.8 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AJ Bichel [/td][td]1997-2003 [/td][td]19 [/td][td]58 [/td][td]32.24 [/td][td]3.36 [/td][td]57.5 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MS Kasprowicz [/td][td]1996-2006 [/td][td]38 [/td][td]113 [/td][td]32.88 [/td][td]3.12 [/td][td]63.1 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SR Waugh [/td][td]1990-2004 [/td][td]133 [/td][td]50 [/td][td]33.16 [/td][td]2.37 [/td][td]83.7 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]TBA May [/td][td]1993-1995 [/td][td]17 [/td][td]50 [/td][td]34.22 [/td][td]2.24 [/td][td]91.6 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]ME Waugh [/td][td]1991-2002 [/td][td]128 [/td][td]59 [/td][td]41.16 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]82.2 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]0 [/td][/tr]
[/table]
 
Gilespie was never the same after the horrific fielding injury he suffered on his bowling shoulder.
 
Gillespie was utterly sensational on the tour to India in 2004, where he took 20 wickets at 16 in the four test matches. His bowling and Martyn's runs were absolutely crucial to what I believe is one of Australia's biggest test triumphs over the last 50 years, ranking alongside the series win in the Caribbean in 1995.

It's quite remarkable how his bowling fell away in the matter of a few months after that tour.
 
Last Monetarist said:
Gillespie was utterly sensational on the tour to India in 2004, where he took 20 wickets at 16 in the four test matches. His bowling and Martyn's runs were absolutely crucial
Click to expand...
Dizzy and Marto were the main reasons, apart from Tendulkar's absence for 2/4 tests which conquered Aussies' final frontier.
 
1998 when Australia toured India , they won one test. In that test Kasprowicz bowled an inswinging full toss to Azhar and had Azhar bowled. That made a lasting impression on my mind. I always thought he was better than Fleming and Gillespie.
 
Gillespie was like one of the top bowlers of the world. Its sad that Gillespie played in an era when Mcgrath, Wasim, Waqar, Akhtar, Curtley and Courtney played. That is why his name is mostly overshadowed.

Gillespie>>>>>>> Fleming> Kasprovich
 
Rightarmfast said:
Gillespie was like one of the top bowlers of the world. Its sad that Gillespie played in an era when Mcgrath, Wasim, Waqar, Akhtar, Curtley and Courtney played. That is why his name is mostly overshadowed.

Gillespie>>>>>>> Fleming> Kasprovich
Click to expand...
This!

Dizzy was so far ahead of those 2 and it showed in their respective stats as well!
 
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