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Bid to block Pakistan F-16 sale fails in US Senate

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WASHINGTON: The US Senate on Thursday blocked an effort to prevent the $700 million (Dh2.57 billion) sale of Lockheed Martin Corp F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan, although a key lawmaker said he would not allow the use of US funds to finance it.

Lawmakers voted 71 to 24 against an attempt introduced by Republican Senator Rand Paul to prevent the sale under legislation known as the Arms Control Act.

President Barack Obama’s administration announced on February 12 that it had approved the sale to Pakistan of the aircraft, as well as radars and other equipment. It drew immediate criticism from India and concern from some members of Congress.

Paul had called Pakistan “an uncertain ally” and other lawmakers expressed concerns about Pakistan’s nuclear programme, commitment to fighting terrorist organisations and cooperation in the Afghanistan peace process.

However, they generally supported the sale, saying the South Asian state needs to modernise its air force and counter-terrorism activities.


Republican Senator Bob Corker said he would use his power as the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee to bar the use of any US funds for the deal.

In a statement, Corker said, “Prohibiting a taxpayer subsidy sends a much-needed message to Pakistan that it needs to change its behaviour, but preventing the purchase of US aircraft would do more harm than good by paving the way for countries like Russia and China to sell to Pakistan while also inhibiting greater cooperation on counterterrorism.” The United States identified Pakistan as a key partner in its war against terror following the September 11, 2001, attacks and spent billions of dollars on military aid to help the country fight insurgents.

But there is growing consternation in Washington about continuing with the same level of assistance unless Pakistan provides evidence it is using the funds effectively to eliminate militants.

http://gulfnews.com/news/asia/pakistan/bid-to-block-pakistan-f-16-sale-fails-in-us-senate-1.1688582
 
You don't merely buy US aircraft. You buy US aircraft + America's foreign policy.
 
Also US knows the mess they are in the Afghanistan..they can't come out cleean without Pakistan's help.
 
I think it will be better for Pakistan to stay in the good books of KSA and US.

At the cost of widespread Wahhabi Islam and incessant drones? Probably not.
 
F16 is the only option , China can't offer us anything

It's j10 can't be sold with Russian engine but a rubbish Chinese one so it is no use

That's why Pakistan is sticking with a smoky crap Russian engine for jf17 because the Chinese one is even more crap

I think Pakistan needs to start working closer with countries like turkey South Africa and Brazil in defence sector , I'd rather we do joint ventures with the Turks and send our scientist and students to turkey it seems much more beneficial for us better than the matlabi chincoms .
 
Better than being an ostrich with head stuck in sand.

Why Won't paf buy j10 because if it did Russia will not allow its engine , so Pakistan will have to do with an inferior Chinese one .

Jf17 is basically obsolete China will not induct it , it's engine has issues with the smoke , and no gcc country will buy it even banana republics like Zimbabwe turned their noses up

Also paf is one desperate for f16 so that just shows that paf Charlies are desperate for f16s because it is only highly capable option available.

China won't sell its stealth fighter and plus it has Russian engines

And the other one a cheap f35 knockup touted for export is not up to par Anything the west can throw up

India is now tilting towards the west

Pakistan has bad experience with Russian junk anyhow case in point being the mi17 crashes whilst similar French helicopters which are older have not crashed
 
^ Before i want to tell you about how much junk we have in our backyard.
will you tell me who are you ? how much do you know about defence deals ? procedures and procuring ? especially with PAF/PA context ....
 
Better than being an ostrich with head stuck in sand.

Why Won't paf buy j10 because if it did Russia will not allow its engine , so Pakistan will have to do with an inferior Chinese one .

that is incorrect. The Russians have no problem with providing us with engines. The J10 no longer fulfils a requirement for us. We can get cheaper F16's that can do what the J10 can and better.


Jf17 is basically obsolete China will not induct it , it's engine has issues with the smoke , and no gcc country will buy it even banana republics like Zimbabwe turned their noses up

Obsolete? lol. It is going from strength to strength. The block 3 version will be one of the most dangerous light weight fighters I the region. The Chinese still need to replace hundreds of obsolete f7's and other such fighters. There is a very real possibility that they will go for the block 3 model in the future. But their requirements are different to ours. they need fighters that have larger range and carry a heavier payload over longer distances e.g ver the south china sea. China is not a small country. On the other hand we don't need fighters with massive ranges although we may now need something to patrol our EEZ.


Also paf is one desperate for f16 so that just shows that paf Charlies are desperate for f16s because it is only highly capable option available.

It is the single most successful single engine fighter in the world. And we are getting it via a grant from the US and we are getting one of its most capable versions. Why would any self respecting air force say no to that? we have the maintenance traning and overhaul facilities already available, stores of parts, access to Turkish expertise to help with upgrades etc, why would we ditch all of that?


China won't sell its stealth fighter and plus it has Russian engines

The Chinese will sell us the FC31. The Russian engines are not a problem. Especially since we may be getting a overhaul facility from them.

And the other one a cheap f35 knockup touted for export is not up to par Anything the west can throw up

we don't need anything to go up against the f22. We need something to go up against India. The FC31 before induction will be a capable platform that will be a game changer for us considering the PAKFA is a donkey.

India is now tilting towards the west

yet continues to fly Russian aircraft in the hundreds and still hasn't sorted out deals for major western aircraft. They can tilt all they want but they know they cannot go against us without facing a massive deterrence.

Pakistan has bad experience with Russian junk anyhow case in point being the mi17 crashes whilst similar French helicopters which are older have not crashed

The introduction of a maintenance facility will minimise that. We have a good relationship with them with regards to helicopters and engines etc.

regards
 
Why doesn't the Pak Air force go for the F 15's?
I have read some where that many experts regard them as pound for pound the greatest all round fighter jet going.
 
Why doesn't the Pak Air force go for the F 15's?
I have read some where that many experts regard them as pound for pound the greatest all round fighter jet going.

Fantastic plane. 104 kills to nothing; not one aircraft has been lost in combat in over 40 years of service.

But it's a twin-engined plane and PAF's doctrine states that they will fly single engine only.
 
Fantastic plane. 104 kills to nothing; not one aircraft has been lost in combat in over 40 years of service.

But it's a twin-engined plane and PAF's doctrine states that they will fly single engine only.

So its more of a cost and maintenance thing?
 
We should get f 18s and f 22s

The F-22 Raptor is banned from being exported. Only 187 have been built, and it is the only bonafide 5th generation fighter in the world today. However, its avionics were severely out of date even at the time of its introduction; bit like solving calculus with an abacus.

The F/A-18 Hornet is out of production, so Pakistan will have the E and F Super Hornet models available for purchase, but the assembly line for these closes in 2018, so the choice will have to be swift. Also, these birds are quite expensive.

Like I said, American aircraft come with a lot of baggage. You essentially become the long arm of the US law over time.
 
We should get f 18s and f 22s

LOL forget that the plane is banned for export, however the unit price for F-22 is upwards of $200 million, its so expensive that even the US can't afford it.
 
LOL forget that the plane is banned for export, however the unit price for F-22 is upwards of $200 million, its so expensive that even the US can't afford it.

Who makes it then?
 
Hope India buys a lot of fighter jets too..for both Pakistan and China in case they attack at the same time. I dont know much about fighter jets but seeing them fills me with pride and passion.
 
Fantastic plane. 104 kills to nothing; not one aircraft has been lost in combat in over 40 years of service.

But it's a twin-engined plane and PAF's doctrine states that they will fly single engine only.

I heard Boeing was working on an update to the F-15 known as F-15SE (Silent Eagle) to offer as an alternate to the F-22 which is quite expensive to manufacture and operate.
 
So it is a monopoly and monopsony?

The US Air Force buys from many different vendors, besides Lockheed Martin, US buys from Boeing, North Grumman etc.

They regularly hold competitions between manufacturers and choose the aircraft that best fits their needs. The last competition they had was between Lockheed Martin and Boeing. Lockheed won and now are supplying them with F-35s
 
I heard Boeing was working on an update to the F-15 known as F-15SE (Silent Eagle) to offer as an alternate to the F-22 which is quite expensive to manufacture and operate.

They probably won't build it in mass numbers though, US Airforce could have stayed with 4th gen aircraft and still kick everyone behind
 
I heard Boeing was working on an update to the F-15 known as F-15SE (Silent Eagle) to offer as an alternate to the F-22 which is quite expensive to manufacture and operate.

The Silent Eagle is an electronic jamming platform with a very small radar cross section (stealth). The F-22 however is an air superiority fighter.
 
The Silent Eagle is an electronic jamming platform with a very small radar cross section (stealth). The F-22 however is an air superiority fighter.

Bar the F-15 E Model - that's a Strike Eagle Air to Ground attack platform.
 
LOL forget that the plane is banned for export, however the unit price for F-22 is upwards of $200 million, its so expensive that even the US can't afford it.

Another reason F-22 production was canned was because of lack of relevant adversaries. I doubt Pakistan has such adversaries that the US doesn't.

From an air-to-air perspective, the PAF's biggest threat is the IAF's fleet of 250+ (and climbing) Sukhoi Su-30MKIs, 49 Mirage 2000s and 62 Mig-29s, and the Indian Navy's 35 Mig-29Ks. The PAF's arsenal of F-16s and JF-17s are quite competent against these threats.
 
Another reason F-22 production was canned was because of lack of relevant adversaries. I doubt Pakistan has such adversaries that the US doesn't.

From an air-to-air perspective, the PAF's biggest threat is the IAF's fleet of 250+ (and climbing) Sukhoi Su-30MKIs, 49 Mirage 2000s and 62 Mig-29s, and the Indian Navy's 35 Mig-29Ks. The PAF's arsenal of F-16s and JF-17s are quite competent against these threats.
You believe that Jf 17 and older version F 16 are capable againist Su 30 MKIs or Mirage 2000V or Mig 29SMT?
 
The Silent Eagle is an electronic jamming platform with a very small radar cross section (stealth). The F-22 however is an air superiority fighter.
Incorrect.What you are talking about is the F15 Growler

F15 SE is supposed to be F 15 with stealth capabilities plus additional multi role capabilities.
 
Fantastic plane. 104 kills to nothing; not one aircraft has been lost in combat in over 40 years of service.

But it's a twin-engined plane and PAF's doctrine states that they will fly single engine only.
I doubt US sells F15s to anyone except very close allies like Israel or Japan.Or to Saudis who pay very high and can be controlled.
 
I doubt US sells F15s to anyone except very close allies like Israel or Japan.Or to Saudis who pay very high and can be controlled.

The US will do anything to spite us. Selling 8 x F-16Vs to Pakistan last month is the most recent proof of this.

And Pakistan doesn't even pay for these things.
 
The US will do anything to spite us. Selling 8 x F-16Vs to Pakistan last month is the most recent proof of this.

And Pakistan doesn't even pay for these things.
F 16 Block 52 doesnt affect us.

F15 will are not sold to many.
 
We should get f 18s and f 22s

no thanks. We should only purchase those planes that are cost effective and benefit us. These two planes you mentioned wont benefit us and wont be available. Also they are twin engine craft that have high maintenance costs.

We are happy with the planes we have. They are there to provide a significant deterrence and we are able to do that.
 
You believe that Jf 17 and older version F 16 are capable againist Su 30 MKIs or Mirage 2000V or Mig 29SMT?

yes and they are not "older versions" all of our f16's are the equivalent of the block 52's now. hey can fire BVR and can be more than a match for your airforce. We have had this debate before. We will be fighting over our airspace with various other force multipliers present. War is not played on paper...
 
yes and they are not "older versions" all of our f16's are the equivalent of the block 52's now. hey can fire BVR and can be more than a match for your airforce. We have had this debate before. We will be fighting over our airspace with various other force multipliers present. War is not played on paper...
Your Block52s are not even the latest F16s which are block 60.They at best match the upgraded Mirage 2000Vs and come nowhere near MKIs or even the upgraded Mig29 SMT.

You are mistaken when you say your airforce will only be flying inside your own territory.Any effective startegy is mixture of offense and defense.

Your stale argument of BVR capability is useless if the other airforce flies BVR fighters which are more capable and are higher in number.

Relatively smaller size of Pakistan and longer range of Indian AWACS mean they can be well within Indian territory but still cover much of Pakistan. IAF will have similar force multipier advantage within Pakistan.


The IAF flies better aircrafts and more in number than the PAF.
 
We will be fighting over our airspace with various other force multipliers present. War is not played on paper...

Elaborate on this? All past wars between India & Pakistan have been instigated by Pakistan intruding into Indian territory. Are you suggesting that this will not be the case in the next one?
 
Elaborate on this? All past wars between India & Pakistan have been instigated by Pakistan intruding into Indian territory. Are you suggesting that this will not be the case in the next one?

depends what your definition of "indian territory is" last I remember east pakistan was Pakistani territory and Kashmir is "disputed territory"...but I digress.. Pakistan will not instigate any movement unless provoked to defend itself. This has always been the policy since operation Gibraltar. and they have stuck to it. You can argue that kargil wasn't but from pakistans point of view it was a defensive operation that needed to be executed as a result of siachin and other issues on the LOC. they miscalculated the response. But the OP itself was not meant to be an aggressive invasion type endeavour.

to understand Pakistans position you have to look at our security paradigm from a different perspective. Up until today you essentially get the Indian version or the western version (which is partly the indian version mixed up with the western version). You never get the Pakistani version. And when you do it is ignored.

but to answer your question yes we plan to fight in a limited zone that will give us the most advantage. Our doctrine envisions India being the aggressor and crossing the border due to a non state actor attack or a false flag op blamed on Pakistan. This will instigate a cold start invasion of Pakistan. We will be fighting to push an enemy out and then potentially moving across the border up to a certain distance before stopping. That is it...
 
but to answer your question yes we plan to fight in a limited zone that will give us the most advantage. Our doctrine envisions India being the aggressor and crossing the border due to a non state actor attack or a false flag op blamed on Pakistan. This will instigate a cold start invasion of Pakistan. We will be fighting to push an enemy out and then potentially moving across the border up to a certain distance before stopping. That is it...

Doubt we have the tactical nous to pull off anything like that. The PAF can rest easy.
 
Your Block52s are not even the latest F16s which are block 60.They at best match the upgraded Mirage 2000Vs and come nowhere near MKIs or even the upgraded Mig29 SMT.

They are more than a match for the MKI's. We have run numerous DACT against the SU-30 and the response has been favourable. We have also interacted with NATO pilots who have gone up against the Indian MKI and have learnt a lot. We have run DACT against the Mirage too and have ample knowledge of its weaknesses. Our Pilots have flown on deputisation against everything from the F22 raptor to the mirage 2000 and mig29. I wouldn't underestimate any of our capabilities. The IAF doesn't so why should you?


You are mistaken when you say your airforce will only be flying inside your own territory.Any effective startegy is mixture of offense and defense.

Yes but the majority of our initial engagements will be over home territory since we will not be the aggressors. Once we have a handle on that we will move into a offensive position. Like I said war is not fought on paper. We also have plenty of standoff weaponry that can be deployed to attack infrastructure across the border and we can now employ SEAD too. Its not a walk in the park anymore.

Your stale argument of BVR capability is useless if the other airforce flies BVR fighters which are more capable and are higher in number.

its not a stale argument. In the 90's we had no BVR. We had no new planes. You had the MKI the mig29 and the mirage 2000. Yet going up against F16's in kargil was not easy. This time we will have over a 150 aircraft with BVR. able to engage multiple contacts simultaneously. That is not easy for anybody.

Relatively smaller size of Pakistan and longer range of Indian AWACS mean they can be well within Indian territory but still cover much of Pakistan. IAF will have similar force multipier advantage within Pakistan.

We will be looking to take out your awacs at the first sign of hostilities. Do you thinkw e're gonna sit back and let you do that?? Like I said war is not fought on paper..suffice it to say it will not be easy for the IAF to conduct operations when they want and where they want. And we also have a very low nuke threshold. So either way all the PAF has to do is absorb losses and keep itself in fighting order until hositilities can be stopped. It has more than enough capability to do that.

The IAF flies better aircrafts and more in number than the PAF.

yes when they aren't in maintenance or crashing. Numbers matter but how many will you be able to get up in the air during hostilities?


regards
 
They also have a backdoor into the radar and other electronic software.Some experts even claim that US has a kill switch.

If this is true and if they ever use it they can say bye bye to billions of exports to the Middle East etc as they will just buy of the UK and France.
 
If this is true and if they ever use it they can say bye bye to billions of exports to the Middle East etc as they will just buy of the UK and France.

Middle East is big ally's of US,I don't think they will care if US bug them. What guarantee UK or France won't do same??
 
Middle East is big ally's of US,I don't think they will care if US bug them. What guarantee UK or France won't do same??

It is one thing to bug them it is another to use a kill switch when in combat.

As for the UK the Saudis humiliated Tony Blair when he was forced to halt fraud inquiry.

Tony Blair's government broke the law when it abandoned a fraud investigation into a multibillion-pound arms deal between BAE Systems and Saudi Arabia, the High Court ruled yesterday.

Two senior judges condemned the Government's "abject" surrender to a "blatant" threat when the Serious Fraud Office (SFO) halted its inquiry into allegations that BAE had made secret payments to Saudi officials in order to secure a series of massive contracts. BAE has always denied any wrongdoing.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ir-for-halting-saudi-arms-inquiry-807793.html
 
It is one thing to bug them it is another to use a kill switch when in combat.

As for the UK the Saudis humiliated Tony Blair when he was forced to halt fraud inquiry.

Tony Blair's government broke the law when it abandoned a fraud investigation into a multibillion-pound arms deal between BAE Systems and Saudi Arabia, the High Court ruled yesterday.

Two senior judges condemned the Government's "abject" surrender to a "blatant" threat when the Serious Fraud Office (SFO) halted its inquiry into allegations that BAE had made secret payments to Saudi officials in order to secure a series of massive contracts. BAE has always denied any wrongdoing.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ir-for-halting-saudi-arms-inquiry-807793.html

Not sure about kill switch is really there...even if it's why should US blindly use them unless they got attacked??
 
Doubt we have the tactical nous to pull off anything like that. The PAF can rest easy.

well we respect the indian armed forces and know they are a formidable enemy hence why we are always on our toes. The Indians repect us as much and are also not keen on going to war like we are not keen. Soldiers fight wars not keyboard warrioirs and Hopefully it only ever comes to us chest thumping on forums or playing cricket..
 
The Americans go through this scripted drama every time such a deal with Pakistan is about to be sealed however at the end of the day the yanks always back their client states. And why shouldn't they - both America and Pakistan are vital to each others security.
 
thre was the news about "kill Switches" in media.
Its actually the "AIFF" System in F-16.
 
Why would America say "no" to Pak when we have their chosen government in Islamabad.
 
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