Brexit - The ignorance being shown by Leavers: "Britain voted to leave. Why haven't we left yet!"

[Yossarian]

Brexit - The ignorance being shown by Leavers: "Britain voted to leave. Why haven't we left yet!"

Just finished watching Question Time on BBC

It would appear that the Brexiteers have no clue whatsoever as to what they’ve voted for, and why it’s not as simple as handing back the UK’s copy of the EU keys back to Brussels and simply leaving.

I’ve tried to put the actual process of leaving into simplistic terms that they could perhaps understand.
..................

Assume for a second that the Brexit vote to leave the EU is the equivalent of one partner in a marriage deciding that he/she’s had enough and now wants a divorce.

Now before the actual divorce can be finalised, the couple need to agree upon and come to arrangements for splitting everything that currently defines them as a married couple.

This ranges from who keeps the house, car, cat, dog, music CD’s, family photos, ........ to who keeps which child, how and what level of access to each child by the other parent, who pays the school fees etc.

There might also be a jointly run business or two that can only function with the participation of both partners (because of their respective specialities and skills), and which perhaps pays for the mortgage and everything else – ie it’s their only source of income. What happens after they divorce and there is so much animosity that they can’t work together anymore and the business will cease to exist (with maybe other people also losing their jobs) ? How are the decisions regarding the house (and mortgage), the car (and loan repayments), child support, private school fees, plus everything else affected then?

The UK leaving the EU is similar to the above, but thousands of times more complicated. After all, the ‘marriage’ took place over 40 years ago!

And everything not only needs to be negotiated with the other side, but there are so many different factions even amongst the Brexiteers that they haven’t even yet decided, because each faction voted Brexit for differing reasons some of which are contradictory to each other, what the UK’s priorities should be as regards give and take in the coming negotiations. (eg UK banks and businesses want free trade. EU says only if there's free movement of people. Brexiteers want to stop EU immigrants.)

It is mind boggling to see the level of stupidity that is being spouted by Brexiteers, including by those who should understand these issue, when they are shouting “Brexit won. Why haven’t we left yet!!.

 

[anuk]

I dont think it's stupid to look for answers to questions that affect the future of the country.

 

[Yossarian]

I dont think it's stupid to look for answers to questions that affect the future of the country.

Eh? Did you understand the OP? The stupidity refers to shouting “Brexit won. Why haven’t we left yet!!" in such a manner that it's not a quest for information and clarification but a statement implying that Britain should already have left the EU by now, EU rules affecting the UK should already have ceased being applicable to the UK, and all the reasons given for Brexit should already be implemented. ie Its a simple case of the UK hand back the EU keys and walking away which should already have been done.

 

[shaz619]

Eh? Did you understand the OP? The stupidity refers to shouting “Brexit won. Why haven’t we left yet!!" in such a manner that it's not a quest for information and clarification but a statement implying that Britain should already have left the EU by now, EU rules affecting the UK should already have ceased being applicable to the UK, and all the reasons given for Brexit should already be implemented. ie Its a simple case of the UK hand back the EU keys and walking away which should already have been done.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

There are astounding elements of stupidity on both sides of this debate.

Those on Remain who are trying to challenge the decision or have another election are being incredibly dense. The people spoke, the result might be bad it might be good long term, only thing that matters is the people made a choice and as a democracy the UK has to abide by it, and as supporters of democracy the Remainers should accept that they lost instead of crying and whinging and claiming everyone who disagreed with them is a racist numbskull and that the world is so unfair.

Likewise the Leavers, some of them appear to have voted for the dumbest of reasons or without much clue about the actual consequences. A small minority do fall into the racist idiots stereotype and as the OP says these seem to think leaving the EU is as simple as closing a window on Google Chrome.

The reaction to Brexit and the ongoing joke in the US just shows that debates are seemingly impossible in the modern age. The ultra right and ultra left seem to hog all media attention, with the ultra left complaining about everything being offensive and how everyone who disagrees with them is dumb, and the ultra right spouting drivel about minorities and shouting as loud as they can. Then you have a significan majority in the middle who either dont care about politics and dont vote (Which is stupid IMO) and the rest who just become disillusioned with the whole thing.

 

[Pakistanian]

It's a marriage that should've never taken place. Europe tried too hard to be America but they didn't have that sense of nationhood to make it work.

 

[Yossarian]

It's a marriage that should've never taken place. Europe tried too hard to be America but they didn't have that sense of nationhood to make it work.

No.
Go and read into the background and history of the EU - or the EEC / Common Market as it was known previously.

The initial catalyst was never about "trying too hard to be America", but more about integrating the economies of (West) Germany, France and a few others in order to reduce the potential for conflict between traditional European antagonists such as France and Germany, along with improving Europe’s economic climate in order to be strong enough to fend off the Soviet Union and it's Eastern European allies if the need arose.

The real problem has arisen since the EU opened the doors to the former allies of Russia, including some of the former Soviet Union states, which has resulted in mass emigration from these newer (and poorer) member states to the more prosperous Western member states.

 

[Markhor]

Question Time audiences are some of the most misinformed set of people you'll ever see.

I've given up on that show.

And Dimbleby's establishment smugness, constant interruptions and inflated sense of self-importance makes it unwatchable.

 

[Yossarian]

Just finished watching Question Time on BBC

It would appear that the Brexiteers have no clue whatsoever as to what they’ve voted for, and why it’s not as simple as handing back the UK’s copy of the EU keys back to Brussels and simply leaving.

I’ve tried to put the actual process of leaving into simplistic terms that they could perhaps understand.

[......]


And everything not only needs to be negotiated with the other side, but there are so many different factions even amongst the Brexiteers that they haven’t even yet decided, because each faction voted Brexit for differing reasons some of which are contradictory to each other, what the UK’s priorities should be as regards give and take in the coming negotiations. (eg UK banks and businesses want free trade. EU says only if there's free movement of people. Brexiteers want to stop EU immigrants.)

It is mind boggling to see the level of stupidity that is being spouted by Brexiteers, including by those who should understand these issue, when they are shouting “Brexit won. Why haven’t we left yet!!.

I thought this was worth bumping up considering that the OP was posted in November 2016

 

[Napa]

The initial catalyst was never about "trying too hard to be America"

True.

but more about integrating the economies of (West) Germany, France and a few others in order to reduce the potential for conflict between traditional European antagonists such as France and Germany, along with improving Europe’s economic climate in order to be strong enough to fend off the Soviet Union and it's Eastern European allies if the need arose.

It was more than just integrating economies and defending against other Europeans (from the East). Many dreamt of an integration of the people (which actually made a lot of sense).

The real problem has arisen since the EU opened the doors to the former allies of Russia, including some of the former Soviet Union states, which has resulted in mass emigration from these newer (and poorer) member states to the more prosperous Western member states.

While there has always been some resentment against Polish plumbers and maids, it was the sight of Syrians and other refugees pouring into Greece, Germany and other mainland European countries that pushed the Brits to exit.

Funny thing is that Putin could have controlled the flow of refugees into Europe if the Western countries were willing to work with him on various issues. But they weren't and Merkel was repaid by him for her unrelenting hostility towards Russia.

 

[Yossarian]

While there has always been some resentment against Polish plumbers and maids, it was the sight of Syrians and other refugees pouring into Greece, Germany and other mainland European countries that pushed the Brits to exit.

Sorry to disagree. The hardcore Tory Brexiteers have been working on this a long time. UKIP. was created specifically for leaving the EU.

Even before that, Imran Khan's former father-in-law Sir James Goldsmith created The Referendum Party as far back as 1994.

The party's sole objective was for a referendum to be held on the nature of the UK's membership of the European Union (EU). Specifically, it called for a referendum on whether the British electorate wanted to either be part of a federal European state or revert to being a sovereign nation that was part of a European free-trade bloc without wider political functions.

wiki

Unlike UKIP. The Referendum Party even managed to have a Member of Parliament in the House of Commons (albeit for only 2 weeks) when George Gardiner, the MP for Reigate, defected to it from the Conservatives shortly before that year's general election

 

[Napa]

Sorry to disagree. The hardcore Tory Brexiteers have been working on this a long time. UKIP. was created specifically for leaving the EU.

Even before that, Imran Khan's former father-in-law Sir James Goldsmith created The Referendum Party as far back as 1994.

My point was that it was the recent influx of refugees into mainland Europe that pushed support for Brexit over the 50% threshold.

Unlike UKIP. The Referendum Party even managed to have a Member of Parliament in the House of Commons (albeit for only 2 weeks) when George Gardiner, the MP for Reigate, defected to it from the Conservatives shortly before that year's general election

Indeed. I agree that Tory Brexiters, UKIP etc. have been working for this for a long time. In fact there was another similar referendum back in 1975, which failed by a 67% to 33% margin. It is notable that there were about 33% wanting to leave even before the East Europeans arrived.

 

[LastManstanding]

Can anyone, who understands economics explain how will brexit impact the economy of the UK?

 

[Pakpak]

Can anyone, who understands economics explain how will brexit impact the economy of the UK?

Its tanked the pound for one. Airbus and BMW have announced that they may leave, which may cost tens of thousands, possibly even more jobs. Ironically in the same areas that voted to leave
[MENTION=4930]Yossarian[/MENTION] can explain more!

 

[mani1]

If Brexit is so bad then how come Corbyn has been voting for it from day one?

 

[shaz619]

If Brexit is so bad then how come Corbyn has been voting for it from day one?

It changes everything really, one example being regulatory bodies which govern UK airspace for example; EASA are responsible for certifying Rolls-Royce engines and if that's not possible then their products can not take to the air and when there are over 500 orders due in 2018 alone then you can just gauge the ££££ which would be lost because the longer aero engines are grounded the more business is being affected. The issue is EASA are responsible for providing certification for all aero products in the EU, with the UK no longer a member this becomes a problem. So we need to leave having agreed a deal which includes associate membership with EASA but we won't enjoy the same benefits.

 

[shaz619]

I thought this was worth bumping up considering that the OP was posted in November 2016

All your premonitions have come true mostly, do you think a 2nd referendum is possible (this time potentially needing a bigger majority) or another general election in the near future?

 

[mani1]

It changes everything really, one example being regulatory bodies which govern UK airspace for example; EASA are responsible for certifying Rolls-Royce engines and if that's not possible then their products can not take to the air and when there are over 500 orders due in 2018 alone then you can just gauge the ££££ which would be lost because the longer aero engines are grounded the more business is being affected. The issue is EASA are responsible for providing certification for all aero products in the EU, with the UK no longer a member this becomes a problem. So we need to leave having agreed a deal which includes associate membership with EASA but we won't enjoy the same benefits.

So Corbyn is anti business?

 

[shaz619]

So Corbyn is anti business?

Didn't he vote remain ? and why did you bring him up all of a sudden ?

 

[mani1]

Didn't he vote remain ? and why did you bring him up all of a sudden ?

He has been voting out since the 70's

 

[mani1]

Corbyn EU voting

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.markpack.org.uk/153744/jeremy-corbyn-brexit/amp/

 

[shaz619]

He has been voting out since the 70's

He voted remain in the EU referendum, what's all of this regarding Corbyn got to do with anyway ?

 

[Yossarian]

Can anyone, who understands economics explain how will brexit impact the economy of the UK?

OK, lets take the comparison with countries that have much larger populations such as the USA (or even China or India!) and why by clubbing together the Europeans can compete better with them.

The UK, for example, has a population of approx 60 million. If a company produces yellow ducks and believes 10% of the population will buy them, then after selling 6 million yellow ducks it can't sell any more (in the UK since the market is exhausted) - unless it decides to sell abroad to consumers in Germany, France etc.

By being in the EU (population over 500 million), there's nothing to stop the company from selling the same yellow ducks as sold in the UK, to potentially tens of millions of EU customers, directly from the UK, and without having to worry whether or not the yellow ducks conform to the French, or German, or Italian .... yellow ducks standards and regulations (vis-a-vis health & safety for example) since, due to being in the EU, they are the same for everyone in the EU.

If the UK was not in the EU any more (and had no trade agreement with the EU), the company will have to make sure that yellow ducks conform to the EU regulations (which now may be different to those in the UK).

It may even need to set up a subsidiary and open offices in an EU country, so that the UK parent company 'sells' the yellow ducks to the EU based subsidiary (which is now the importer of these British yellow ducks), who then sells them to the EU customers. The EU based subsidiary may also need to pay an import tax on these yellow ducks (which was not the case when the UK was in the EU). They will also need to go through Customs (again, not the case before).

All this means higher costs and more admin for the yellow duck manufacturer, and longer lead times from manufacture to selling to the end consumer. Which in turn means lower profits and/or raising the price of yellow ducks (which then opens the door to other competitors).

As for Brexiteers arguments of making deals with the likes of India, Australia etc... well the UK (and the EU) is already doing business with them all. They're not suddenly going to start doing more business with the UK just because the UK is out of the EU. In fact, very likely the reverse. If you're an Indian, or Australian, or Chinese company, who would you like to please more, and give a better deal to, the UK with potentially 60 million customers, or the EU with potentially 500 million customers?

 

[Robert]

He voted remain in the EU referendum, what's all of this regarding Corbyn got to do with anyway ?

Allegedly.

He voted against Maastricht and Lisbon, and called for A50 to be triggered the day after the Referendum.

 

[Yossarian]

Allegedly.

He voted against Maastricht and Lisbon, and called for A50 to be triggered the day after the Referendum.

What does that have anything to do with the price of tea in China?

* Tories are in government

* David Cameron called the referendum to try and appease the Tory hardliners in the Tory party

* Through sheer ignorance (on the part of 90% of Leave voters) and self-interest (of rich Brexit backers who bankrolled the Leave campaign, like James Dyson and Arron Banks) Leave won.

* Now the reality is beginning to hit home - and those Tories who now understand the damage Brexit is going to do are trying to limit, as far as possible, that damage.

* But the ignorant ones (who have no clue as to the reality of Brexit, other than soundbites they've copied from each other, soundbites like "wonderful opportunities", "massive new trade deals with the likes of India and New Zealand" (New Zealand, with a population of just over 4 million!), "no deal is better than a bad deal"... and so on.., still haven't figured out that a "no deal" means no agreement on civil aviation and UK planes being allowed to land in EU countries, no agreement on EURATOM (and all it entails in terms of radio isotopes for scanners, xray machines etc being transported into the UK from the EU), no agreement on Ireland / N.Ireland and the ramifications for The Good Friday Agreement ..... and a host of other issues they simply don't understand.

And yet Brexiteers are talking about Jeremy Corbyn and how he may, or may not have voted.