Can a non-Saudi woman leave Saudi without mahram after coming to Saudia with mahram?

[srh]

I am planning to go to Umrah with family (wife and kids) in a group. So I will be the mahram and Saudi visa will be of type Umrah. We will be going in a group with other people who are not related to us. Route is Toronto to Jeddah and then back from Jeddah to Toronto. The airline would be Saudi Airlines.

Now wife and kids want to go to Pakistan from Saudia after performing Umrah. But the flight they can get from Saudia to Pakistan will be 1 day after my flight from Jeddah to Toronto. So basically they will have to stay 1 day longer in Saudia than me.

My concern is will they have issues leaving Saudia since their mahram (me) would have already left by then? Can Saudis object and not allow wife and kids to leave Saudia? Has any of you encountered this situation before?

 

[Yossarian]

Don't know about an Umrah visa specifically. But during my time working in Saudi, there were plenty of single ex-pat females working there, and thus going in and out of the country without any problems (with exit/re-entry visas).
Question: If your family is staying one day longer than yourself in Saudi Arabia, where are they staying? Who with? I would have thought that would be a bigger question than whether or not you left on different flights one day apart.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

From my 15 years experience, I can definitely say that, as long as each member's visa is valid, you shouldn't have any problems at all.

 

[srh]

Don't know about an Umrah visa specifically. But during my time working in Saudi, there were plenty of single ex-pat females working there, and thus going in and out of the country without any problems (with exit/re-entry visas).
Question: If your family is staying one day longer than yourself in Saudi Arabia, where are they staying? Who with? I would have thought that would be a bigger question than whether or not you left on different flights one day apart.

From my 15 years experience, I can definitely say that, as long as each member's visa is valid, you shouldn't have any problems at all.

Thanks guys for the replies. I am concerned about the visa type which is "Umrah" and a woman under 45 years old or children cannot get "Umrah" visa if there is no mahram accompanying. Since I am the mahram and I will be accompanying them so we should get the "Umrah" visa Insha Allah. The issue is when leaving Saudia after Umrah. Are Saudi authorities restrictive that people who come to Saudia on "Umrah" visa with mahram should also leave Saudia with mahram? Thats my question.

Is there any website where I can read these rules & regulations of "Umrah" visa?

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

Thanks guys for the replies. I am concerned about the visa type which is "Umrah" and a woman under 45 years old or children cannot get "Umrah" visa if there is no mahram accompanying. Since I am the mahram and I will be accompanying them so we should get the "Umrah" visa Insha Allah. The issue is when leaving Saudia after Umrah. Are Saudi authorities restrictive that people who come to Saudia on "Umrah" visa with mahram should also leave Saudia with mahram? Thats my question.

Is there any website where I can read these rules & regulations of "Umrah" visa?

https://www.moi.gov.sa/wps/portal/Home/Home

 

[Yossarian]

My concern is will they have issues leaving Saudia since their mahram (me) would have already left by then? Can Saudis object and not allow wife and kids to leave Saudia? Has any of you encountered this situation before?

Women and children should be accompanied by husband/father or a male relative (Mahram). Proof of relationship is required (a marriage certificate for a wife, a birth certificate for a child indicating the names of both parents). The Mahram must travel into and out of Saudi Arabia on the same flight as his wife and children.

https://www.saudia.com/TRAVEL-INFORMATION/About-Saudi-Arabia/Hajj-and-Umrah/Umrah-Visa

Appears you're out of luck my friend. I'm guessing the flight booking details are part of the package of documents required for the Umrah visa.

fyi Hadi Rizvi

 

[Raja Sab]

yes you can, there's no restriction

 

[Yossarian]

yes you can, there's no restriction

Wrong. Read my post above.

Women and children should be accompanied by husband/father or a male relative (Mahram). Proof of relationship is required (a marriage certificate for a wife, a birth certificate for a child indicating the names of both parents). The Mahram must travel into and out of Saudi Arabia on the same flight as his wife and children.

https://www.saudia.com/TRAVEL-INFORMATION/About-Saudi-Arabia/Hajj-and-Umrah/Umrah-Visa

I'm guessing the flight booking details are part of the package of documents required for the Umrah visa.

 

[Raja Sab]

Wrong. Read my post above.

I'm guessing the flight booking details are part of the package of documents required for the Umrah visa.

OP is talking about expat women, those laws are for saudi women

 

[ExpressPacer]

Saudi Arabia has some absurd laws quite frankly. Would never live there, even for work.

 

[namak]

OP is talking about expat women, those laws are for saudi women

Saudi women don't need a visa. They are Saudi nationals. Visa is for expatriates only

 

[sshakir411]

Shouldn't be a problem. I think the mehram issue applies strictly to Saudi women.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

Appears you're out of luck my friend. I'm guessing the flight booking details are part of the package of documents required for the Umrah visa.

fyi Hadi Rizvi

Must be a new rule since my relatives have been in similar situations often but there was no action by Saudi authorities.

 

[Raja Sab]

Saudi women don't need a visa. They are Saudi nationals. Visa is for expatriates only

yes and expats women can come and go as they please, they don't need permission or any male by their side to leave the country

 

[srh]

Must be a new rule since my relatives have been in similar situations often but there was no action by Saudi authorities.

how much time difference was between the flights of your relatives (mahram and without mahram) ?

So for example your relatives (A + B) come to Saudia on Umrah Visa with A as mahram of B. Then A left alone for destination X and B left alone for destination Y. So how far apart were the flights of A and B leaving Saudia?

I have a feeling that this rule has always been there but they dont impose this rule if the time difference between the flights is couple of hours.

 

[Hadi Rizvi]

how much time difference was between the flights of your relatives (mahram and without mahram) ?

So for example your relatives (A + B) come to Saudia on Umrah Visa with A as mahram of B. Then A left alone for destination X and B left alone for destination Y. So how far apart were the flights of A and B leaving Saudia?

I have a feeling that this rule has always been there but they dont impose this rule if the time difference between the flights is couple of hours.

I don't exactly remember but what you're saying is probably right.

 

[srh]

how much time difference was between the flights of your relatives (mahram and without mahram) ?

So for example your relatives (A + B) come to Saudia on Umrah Visa with A as mahram of B. Then A left alone for destination X and B left alone for destination Y. So how far apart were the flights of A and B leaving Saudia?

I have a feeling that this rule has always been there but they dont impose this rule if the time difference between the flights is couple of hours.

[MENTION=4930]Yossarian[/MENTION]

 

[Yossarian]

@srh

Check to see if the flights bookings/details, both into and out of Saudi Arabia, have to be included as part of the documentation for umrah visa application to the Saudi Embassy.

If not then I guess there's no issue.

However, if flight booking details are required before the umrah visa is issued, then I would have thought that the Saudia website was correct and that the mahram and family have to travel in and out of SA together on the same flight. ie If everyone is not on the same flights, both in and out, the umrah visa would not be issued.

 

[Yossarian]

OP is talking about expat women, those laws are for saudi women

1. Saudi women don't need a visa to go in and out of Saudi Arabia
2. Saudi women do not need to be accompanied by a mahram when going in/out of the country.

 

[Raja Sab]

1. Saudi women don't need a visa to go in and out of Saudi Arabia
2. Saudi women do not need to be accompanied by a mahram when going in/out of the country.

then why did you me ? Expats have the freedom to go whenever they want

 

[Yossarian]

then why did you me ? Expats have the freedom to go whenever they want

OK. Let me clarify it for you.

1.A Saudi woman (or man) is a citizen of Saudi Arabia and does not need a visa to go in or out of Saudi Arabia.

2. An expat is a foreigner working legally in Saudi Arabia on a work visa.
* He/she initially enters SA on an entry visa
* He/she needs an exit and re-entry visa to go out of and return back to SA.
* He/she needs an exit only visa when he/she finishes his/her contract/employment and leaves SA
* Rules for (non working) family/dependents follow roughly the same path with slight variations.
(The above was certainly the case during my time working in SA)

3. Someone going to SA for Umrah requires an Umrah visa which allows them to enter and leave SA. But also limits where in SA they can go.

4. Hajj visa. Same as point 3 above



Clear enough for you?

 

[Raja Sab]

OK. Let me clarify it for you.

1.A Saudi woman (or man) is a citizen of Saudi Arabia and does not need a visa to go in or out of Saudi Arabia.

2. An expat is a foreigner working legally in Saudi Arabia on a work visa.
* He/she initially enters SA on an entry visa
* He/she needs an exit and re-entry visa to go out of and return back to SA.
* He/she needs an exit only visa when he/she finishes his/her contract/employment and leaves SA
* Rules for (non working) family/dependents follow roughly the same path with slight variations.
(The above was certainly the case during my time working in SA)

3. Someone going to SA for Umrah requires an Umrah visa which allows them to enter and leave SA. But also limits where in SA they can go.

4. Hajj visa. Same as point 3 above



Clear enough for you?

OP is asking if a women expat can go out of saudia withouth permission from her husband. She can. Why is it so confusing for you?

 

[Yossarian]

OP is asking if a women expat can go out of saudia withouth permission from her husband. She can. Why is it so confusing for you?

No he's not. You need to learn to read.
He's not asking about "a woman expat" (ie someone working legally in SA on a work visa). He's asking about a woman on an umrah visa who's there with her husband or another male relative (a mahram) to perform Umrah (a religious pilgrimage, and not work!).

I am planning to go to Umrah with family (wife and kids) in a group. So I will be the mahram and Saudi visa will be of type Umrah. We will be going in a group with other people who are not related to us. Route is Toronto to Jeddah and then back from Jeddah to Toronto. The airline would be Saudi Airlines.

I would have thought a point by point explanation in my previous post of the different visa types would have clarified it for you. Appears not to be the case.

 

[Raja Sab]

No he's not. You need to learn to read.
He's not asking about "a woman expat" (ie someone working legally in SA on a work visa). He's asking about a woman on an umrah visa who's there with her husband or another male relative (a mahram) to perform Umrah (a religious pilgrimage, and not work!).



I would have thought a point by point explanation in my previous post of the different visa types would have clarified it for you. Appears not to be the case.

she can go back on her own, no problem

 

[Yossarian]

she can go back on her own, no problem

Not according to the website of Saudia airlines, Saudi Arabia's state airline.

This has already been posted twice in posts above. But perhaps you know better than Saudia airline. Although doubt it considering you don't even know the difference between an expat on a work visa and a pilgrim on an Umrah visa

Women and children should be accompanied by husband/father or a male relative (Mahram). Proof of relationship is required (a marriage certificate for a wife, a birth certificate for a child indicating the names of both parents). The Mahram must travel into and out of Saudi Arabia on the same flight as his wife and children.

Note: If a woman is 45 years old or older, she is allowed to go without a Mahram if she travels with an organized group or family and submits a notarized No Objection Certificate from her Mahram.


https://www.saudia.com/TRAVEL-INFORMATION/About-Saudi-Arabia/Hajj-and-Umrah/Umrah-Visa

 

[Yossarian]

Must be a new rule since my relatives have been in similar situations often but there was no action by Saudi authorities.

Were your (female) relatives older than 45? Because then the rules don't apply.

Women and children should be accompanied by husband/father or a male relative (Mahram). Proof of relationship is required (a marriage certificate for a wife, a birth certificate for a child indicating the names of both parents). The Mahram must travel into and out of Saudi Arabia on the same flight as his wife and children.

Note: If a woman is 45 years old or older, she is allowed to go without a Mahram if she travels with an organized group or family and submits a notarized No Objection Certificate from her Mahram.

https://www.saudia.com/TRAVEL-INFORMATION/About-Saudi-Arabia/Hajj-and-Umrah/Umrah-Visa

@srh

 

[srh]

@srh

Check to see if the flights bookings/details, both into and out of Saudi Arabia, have to be included as part of the documentation for umrah visa application to the Saudi Embassy.

If not then I guess there's no issue.

However, if flight booking details are required before the umrah visa is issued, then I would have thought that the Saudia website was correct and that the mahram and family have to travel in and out of SA together on the same flight. ie If everyone is not on the same flights, both in and out, the umrah visa would not be issued.

The flight booking details are required before the umrah visa is issued.

But I think Saudi embassy officials does not check before issuing the umrah visa that, if the mahram is going in a different flight than the non-mahrams after Umrah. I think they leave this checking up to the Saudi airport officials.

 

[Yossarian]

The flight booking details are required before the umrah visa is issued.

But I think Saudi embassy officials does not check before issuing the umrah visa that, if the mahram is going in a different flight than the non-mahrams after Umrah. I think they leave this checking up to the Saudi airport officials.

This part makes one think that the Saudi's will require assurances that the non-mahrams are eligible to travel without the mahram.

Note: If a woman is 45 years old or older, she is allowed to go without a Mahram if she travels with an organized group or family and submits a notarized No Objection Certificate from her Mahram.

https://www.saudia.com/TRAVEL-INFORMATION/About-Saudi-Arabia/Hajj-and-Umrah/Umrah-Visa

Anyway my friend, I wish you good luck with whatever you decide.

From my personal experiences working in Saudi and dealing with Saudi bureaucracy and airport officials, it all depends upon which side of the bed they woke up on that morning. I've seen Saudi Customs officials ignore blatantly illegal items in someone's possession (eg Xrated movies and magazines as well as alcohol), and I've seen them go rabid on the most minor of excuses.

 

[srh]

This part makes one think that the Saudi's will require assurances that the non-mahrams are eligible to travel without the mahram.

Anyway my friend, I wish you good luck with whatever you decide.

From my personal experiences working in Saudi and dealing with Saudi bureaucracy and airport officials, it all depends upon which side of the bed they woke up on that morning. I've seen Saudi Customs officials ignore blatantly illegal items in someone's possession (eg Xrated movies and magazines as well as alcohol), and I've seen them go rabid on the most minor of excuses.

When people apply for Umrah visa each person has to submit a form; in that form women & children have to mention their mahram's name who they will be going with.
If a woman is 45 or over then she does not have to mention her mahram's name in that form as long she is going with a group; in that case she also submit another form that her mahram has no objection.

Now the tickets submission is also a requirement but tickets can be changed after you get the visa (for example dates changes a little bit). So thats why I think the Saudis at embassy does not check the flights.

By the way when does Saudi Airlines open the counter for boarding a flight at Jeddah airport? Is it 2 or 3 or 4 hours before the flight?

 

[MenInG]

Women living in Saudi are free to go for Umrah without Mahram. They can hail a cab and go there.

 

[Yossarian]

Women living in Saudi are free to go for Umrah without Mahram. They can hail a cab and go there.

Because the concept of a mahram doesn't arise as they can travel anywhere in the country. Either because they're Saudi citizens, or because they're allowed to live their, and move freely around the country, as expat workers (on work visas) or as dependents of expat workers. For anyone living in Saudi Arabia, as long as they're a Muslim, performing Umrah is just like going to a mosque to pray.

But for those on Umrah or Hajj visas, there are restrictions on where they can and connot go. ie It's not simply a case of "They can hail a cab and go there". They need to obtain an Umrah visa to go in and out of the country!

And the OP's question was not about performing the Umrah itself, but about going in and out of the country when you're in Saudi Arabia on an Umrah visa as a female that requires you to be with a mahram (if you're under 45).

 

[srh]

Update: No issue occurred at the Jeddah airport South terminal. I think it help that this terminal is only for Saudi airlines. I first check-in my family for Pakistan from one counter and the guy did not ask about mahram. Then I check-in for Canada from another counter. After we get the boarding passes, we all went together inside the airport and everything works out fine.