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Can Pakistan win a Test(s) on the upcoming tour of South Africa?

Kohli The King of Chase

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Past 2 weeks have been quite busy on PP with the performance of India and, whether they are the best team. Some have claimed that Pakistan is better as they've won quite a few matches in England recently.

No doubt that Pak has been a better touring team(Tests) in England recently, but can they show some spine in South Africa this time.

India have won 1(3) test this year, and can Pakistan win atleast a test?

Pakistan play at Centurion, Cape Town and Johannesburg, the same venues where India played.

India have won at Johannesburg, and can Pakistan do the same?

For me Pakistan's bowling will be the key, and also as to how Yasir does would play a major part.

Moreover, Mickey(as he's from SA) being in the dressing room does help.



First test is on 26th of December and 3 day practice match is on 19th(19,20,21).

We didn't have much practice games/ time, Pakistan, if they need to win, have to be in South Africa atleast by 11th of December. That's 2 weeks before the first game.


Also in last 10 games in SA, SA have batted first 7 times and have won all 7. Visiting teams have batted first 3(Australia 2, India 1) times and have won 2/3 (India 1, Aus 1). From this it's clear that teams batting first wins 9 out of 10 times.


Eagerly waiting for the series:yasir:amir3:hasan2:abbas:shh:shh:rabada:wahab
 
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Pakistan need to bring in Shaheen Afridi at any cost, with necessary amount of FC games for him before the series.

For me Yasir should play only at Centurion, 1st test, where you would see some assistance for spin. If he wins u the first test, you can take him to Cape town, if not take Shadab for the Second one.

Whereas, at Johannesburg you need 7 batsmen, especially play Fakhar at 5 as you would need some quick runs in Johannesburg. There's no point blocking in Johannesburg, as you'll soon get a delivery with ur name on it.

For Johannesburg you don't need any spinner whatsoever.



Bowling for 3 tests

Centurion:
07.Faheem
08.Yasir
09.Amir
10.Hassan
11.Abbas

Cape Town:
07.Faheem
08.Yasir(if he wins u the 1st test)/ Shadab
09.Amir
10.Hassan
11.Abbas

Johannesburg:
07.Sarfraz(play 7 batsmen inc wk and 4 genuine seamers)
08.Amir
09.Hassan
10.Shaheen(debut)
11.Abbas
 
All this India bashing will back fire in December I guess. With rabada, steyn and philander firing it would be hard for pakistan to even put any decent score on the board.
 
Kohli, The King of Chase
Nice try to divert the attention of Pakistan fans :P
We still focussing on the next 3 Eng v Ind tests.. :D
 
I think it will be a whitewash for Pakistan as per the norm. No funny business, the usual inept overseas performance excluding Lord's and the Oval.
 
I agree with many of the OP’s points.

1. Shadab Khan’s batting makes him more important than Yasir Shah given that two of the three Tests are at high altitude.

2. Four pace bowlers are an absolute must - Faheem Ashraf is good enough now - but the extra height and pace of Shaheen Shah Afridi make him the bowler with the most menace.

De Villiers and Morkel have left the scene, so South Africa will be desperately raw.
 
1. Azhar Ali
2. Imam-ul-Haq
3. Babar Azam
4. Azad Shafiq
5. Haris Sohail
6. Sarfraz Ahmed (c/wk)
7. Faheem Ashraf
8. Shadab Khan
9. Mohammad Amir
10. Shaheen Shah Afridi
11. Mohammad Abbas
 
1. Azhar Ali
2. Imam-ul-Haq
3. Babar Azam
4. Azad Shafiq
5. Haris Sohail
6. Sarfraz Ahmed (c/wk)
7. Faheem Ashraf
8. Shadab Khan
9. Mohammad Amir
10. Shaheen Shah Afridi
11. Mohammad Abbas

We can win if we bring back Mohammad Asif and Salman Butt.
 
With Pakistan you never know. Personally I think winning even one test would be a major achievement. The plus point is that no de Villiers, no Hafeez and Steyn is not the same. Not a plus point is the fact there is still Rabada, Philander, Ngidi who can cause major nightmares for Pakistani batsman. Even a Steyn past his prime is bound to be a menace. And du Plessis, Amla, Elgar, Markram make up a very strong batting line-up. That said, I'm excited to see Abbas, Amir, Hasan and possibly Shaheen (who would be a great selection for South Africa) bowl on those pitches. They can genuinely challenge the South African batsmen.

Either Pakistan will compete and win one match or the batting will completely implode and we will be decimated 3-0.
 
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Why cannot we prepare by going to places like South Africa and Australia like we do in England? I am pretty sure if we did the same kind of preparation and used the the games with the local teams to find the right combination, we would do well in Tests...
 
All this India bashing will back fire in December I guess. With rabada, steyn and philander firing it would be hard for pakistan to even put any decent score on the board.

Though I agree with you mostly But Pakistan team won't be going with the expectations of what team India was going in to England/South Africa. Number one team best batting line up one of the best bowling line up etc the weight of expectations was high. I'm sure no sensible Pak fan is cocky saying Pak will come back with a series win (seriously and not trolling) as long as we be competitive and get one win that's more then enough.
 
Another whitewash awaits Pakistan even without ABD. This will give the hype circle the reality check that has been long overdue.
 
we should otherwise we cant boast about anything speically after AUS, NZ whitewash.
 
I’m backing Pakistan all the way.
It’s a team on its way up and has awesome talent.

Hoping Fakhar opens in the UAE so that he can cement his place as our permanent opener in all three formats.
 
Though I agree with you mostly But Pakistan team won't be going with the expectations of what team India was going in to England/South Africa. Number one team best batting line up one of the best bowling line up etc the weight of expectations was high. I'm sure no sensible Pak fan is cocky saying Pak will come back with a series win (seriously and not trolling) as long as we be competitive and get one win that's more then enough.

Good post. Agreed that we need to be competitive. No one is saying we will humiliate SA.
 
Another whitewash awaits Pakistan even without ABD. This will give the hype circle the reality check that has been long overdue.

Sorry, wasn't all the hype about India humiliating England etc etc?
 
We usually get blown away at the Wanderers so expecting little there.

At Cape Town and Centurion I'm hoping for dry surfaces that'll allow us to bring Yasir into the match.

If we can get to 300 by hook or by crook, then I'm confident our bowlers can get at what is not a vintage South African batting lineup.
 
Yes they can. If SA make a green pitch and Pakistan bowls first, Pakistan has a good chance of beating SA. The SA middle order is right there for the taking. Amla isn't in top form although we might get him into form but the whole SA batting is fragile and India exposed it. Pakistan are a mercurial side and there's enough talent for us to sneak in a Test if not the series in itself. Sarfraz's captaincy needs to be absolutely on point though. Fakhar Zaman is a must for the SA series. I would have him open with Imam and drop Azhar to number 3. This means no place for Haris Sohail.
 
All this India bashing will back fire in December I guess. With rabada, steyn and philander firing it would be hard for pakistan to even put any decent score on the board.

Steyn is washed up. He was a non-factor in Tests against India recently.

Rabada is a real threat. Philander is still good.

The real threat imo will be Lungi Ngidi. That guy can maul Pak batting lineup. Express pace and he is surprisingly accurate.

SA batting has weakened a lot with the retirement of ABD. Amla is washed up and the rest are just average at best.

Pak can win the series if their batting holds up and consistently scores over 250. But that's a big ask.
 
All this India bashing will back fire in December I guess. With rabada, steyn and philander firing it would be hard for pakistan to even put any decent score on the board.

Not India bashing when Pakistan has no expectation to do well in SA, well for me anyway. India however does, considering they're #1 test side, as well as the hype that surrounds them being the "best batting side in the world".
 
Steyn is washed up. He was a non-factor in Tests against India recently.

Rabada is a real threat. Philander is still good.

The real threat imo will be Lungi Ngidi. That guy can maul Pak batting lineup. Express pace and he is surprisingly accurate.

SA batting has weakened a lot with the retirement of ABD. Amla is washed up and the rest are just average at best.

Pak can win the series if their batting holds up and consistently scores over 250. But that's a big ask.

SA may seem weak on paper, but you gotta realise they did beat Australia in SA 3-1, and that's with Aus having Starc (3 test after being 1-0 down), Hazlewood, Cummins, Lyon, M Marsh as well, and Smith and Warner in the team. It was a seriously impressive performance and that Aus team is better than our team for sure - especially in conditions like those you find in SA.

One of Elgar and Markham usually get a good score for them. Amla is probably their weakest point in the batting line up (which is incredible given how great he has been) while de Bruyne is new and fresh to replace ABDV so he could be targetted but scored a century in SL which is quite tough to do for a new guy. De Plessis, Bavuma and De Kock are all capable of scoring runs and their batting is completed with a good Philander who can get a 50 low down the order.

Their bowling is their strength and they'll have Steyn, Rabada, Ngidi. Maharaj will provide pressure with his accurate slow left arm and to be honest it'll be a tough ask to even win one test.

No ABDV or Morkel but tbh they're still very strong as they'll have the fast bowling to rip through our batting and enough batting capabilities in their middle-lower order to post a total.

Only way we win is if we bat first (as OP suggested) and create pressure to chase a competitive total on a day 4/5 pitch. I still see our batting as being very brittle and if Aus could barely get one win with the team they put out then I can't see how we'll get a win either.
 
Pakistan will win, they have all ingredients to win, I have high expectations for them.
 
South Africa are very strong at home. If they produce bowling friendly pitches, I don't see our batting line up scoring enough.

Should be a good series.
 
As long as they stick with the same XI that played England (four pacers+ Shadab) then I am confident they can manage at least one win.

SA are not as mentally strong as AUS to keep relentless pressure on their opponents.

PREDICTIONS

Most runs:

Elgar (250)
Azhar (215)

Most wickets:

Rabada (15)
Abbas (18)

End Result:

2-1 to South Africa with Pakistan winning the dead rubber.
 
Logic and form indicate another whitewash. However there many reasons to hope.
I disagree with OP that Pakistan’s bowling will be key: their batting will be key.
Our last tour of South Africa saw us dismiss a very strong team for 242 pretty much on the first day of the series. We were dismissed for 45 or 43 after that. We competed really well in Cape Town but decided to make Robin Peterson a hero in that test match. We were completely shattered by the time the third test came along. Pakistan has to have a good home season so that they can carry some of that confidence to South Africa.
 
These things will always be tough to say. Yes, they can win one test, why not??

However, Saffers have completely dominated Pakistan in the last 10 years home or away.
 
We usually get blown away at the Wanderers so expecting little there.

At Cape Town and Centurion I'm hoping for dry surfaces that'll allow us to bring Yasir into the match.

If we can get to 300 by hook or by crook, then I'm confident our bowlers can get at what is not a vintage South African batting lineup.

We just need to score 250 +. SA batting is all about Hashim Amla.
 
Though I agree with you mostly But Pakistan team won't be going with the expectations of what team India was going in to England/South Africa. Number one team best batting line up one of the best bowling line up etc the weight of expectations was high. I'm sure no sensible Pak fan is cocky saying Pak will come back with a series win (seriously and not trolling) as long as we be competitive and get one win that's more then enough.

Yeh sometime its better to expect the worst.... But Team Pak would miss Younis khan dearly
 
Bit early to say either way. Depends on our performances in October and November in uae
 
Oh yes the prediction is 3-0 SA for me. We gotta be realistic and atm we don't have the skill to survive in SA imo. Just how India got their bums smacked up in England, as will ours in SA.
 
Since we have no pressure of defending high ranking we MAY do well. However, this tour will define our test team progress.
 
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If we have some a good preperation into this tour then I think we could do well. Also Mickey Arthur would drill his players into performing 100%. Pakistan have a good chance winning against South Africa, specially with the Australia tour before this series. It depends how the preperation goes and who plays. Even he plays slow Sami Aslam is a good option to open for Pakistan.
 
SA batting is not great, but then Pakistan has to put some runs to capitalize on that.
 
I feel that our bowlers will do well against SA batting. It'll come down to whether Pakistan can score 300+ consistently, then I'd say we could win a test. As for the series, again, it's whether our batsmen can score against (most likely) Steyn, Rabada and Philander.
 
I’m not sure about the series win but Pakistan should be able to win at least one test.
 
Alot depends on how Azhar, Asad and Sarfaraz perform. If these three perform then we can even win the series. If they have a bad series then SA will win easily.
 
Tough to think 2-1 (for PAK), but 1-2 is quite possible. I think, 3-0 (for SAF) & 2-1 (For PAK) should have equal odds. 2nd Test is at Cape Town and if PAK wins the toss, they should be favorite to win that Test.

To compete for PAK, I think most critical is how top 3 (or 4) is batting, because with Kookaburra, unless top 3 bails out enough time, SAF might get them 72/6 by 25th over and contest ends there. Last time PAK had MoHa opening and more or less Styen & Co made it 3 down in opening spell - still once YK & Asad took score to ~340 from 34/4 or so.

For that, I think Test specialists should travel to SAF early. PAK's advantage is that, most of the Test batsmen are sort of specialist - NZ Test Series ends almost 6 weeks before 1st Test, therefore at some capacity (may be in the wrap of A tour) PCB should send Azhar, Asad, Usman, Saad, Shan, and couple of young batsmen - add to that Test specialist bowlers like Wahab, Abbas, Yasir, Rahat, Hamza, may be Rizwan as back-up WK ... to play 3/4, 4 day proper FC games against SAF A or their FC teams, it's a great preparation.

Regarding combination, I am not sure if it should be 5+2+3 (+1) or 6+4. Last time Ajmal played as a genuine No. 11 and still almost won a Test with a 10for at Newlands, therefore I am not a big fan of compromised spinner for the sake of 10-15 extra runs, unless the spin all-rounder is a wicket taking threat. Considering PAK's batting woes and short duration of Tests (last tour, 3 Tests ended inside 4 days, 1st one could have ended in 2 days had SAF enforced the follow on), I don't think 5 bowlers is always essential. It's good to have 5 bowlers, but I would like to take a chance with Haris as back up for the 5th bowler - don't think, win or loss PAK is going to bowl more than 170 overs, therefore 4 regular bowlers
bowling around 150 overs, and 15-20 from Haris can do, he isn't that bad.

I'll go with this playing XI at Centurion -

Azhar, Imam
Haris, Asad, Babar, Open spot (may be FZ),
Sarfraz
Amir, Wahab (Hasan), Shaheen & Abbas

Yes - no specialist spinner. Centurion is a sort of grave yard for spinners - spinners average 50+ there (pacers around half) and that spinner's figure is skewed a bit for one & only Muralitharan (Warne's only Test had figures of 36-11-89-0), and Shakib's 6/99 - his best away figure. Yasir doesn't turn much and he won't be effective, while Shadab will go for plenty on that narrow ground having a squire boundary at around 60 metres.

At New Land's I think, 2 spinners can play, or at least 1, but 3 pacers are must - one of Yasir or Shadab should replace Wahab or Shaheen (Or Hasan). At this point I don't know how fit Yasir will be - if he can bowl 70 overs, he is my 1st choice. Shadab's Test potential still isn't tested - he tends to bowl couple of loose one here & there every over, which makes him risky in low scoring Tests (That series will be low scoring)

Jo'burg is the fastest & bounciest track in SAF and often a better batting wicket (though last time PAK's first innings was 49) - may be one leggi can play, but here PAK will need 3.5 pacers to keep banging on short of length - outside WACA, this was the bounciest track in world, at almost 2000 metres altitude, fast bowlers do fly there. Amir, Abbas, Shaheen/Wahab/Hasan and Fahim should get a game. I probably'll drop one batsman and play both Fahim & Shadab + 3 pacers. This time Shadab comes to cover the batting, otherwise Sarfraz at 6, Fahim at 7 followed by Amir, Yasir, Wahab/Shaheen, Abbas is a bit risky business.

Should be a better series than ENG-IND, but not sure about SAF-IND, that was a fantastic, hard fought series between 2 quality teams.
 
There is a huge difference between India and Pakistan.

Mickey Arthur

Mark my words! Pakistan will be different Beast when they travel to South Africa.:ma
 
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There is a huge difference between India and Pakistan.

Mickey Arthur

Mark my words! Pakistan will be different Beast when they travel to South Africa.:ma

Like we were in Australia and New Zealand? South Africa will be difficult as we have a very poor record there.
 
Tough to think 2-1 (for PAK), but 1-2 is quite possible. I think, 3-0 (for SAF) & 2-1 (For PAK) should have equal odds. 2nd Test is at Cape Town and if PAK wins the toss, they should be favorite to win that Test.

To compete for PAK, I think most critical is how top 3 (or 4) is batting, because with Kookaburra, unless top 3 bails out enough time, SAF might get them 72/6 by 25th over and contest ends there. Last time PAK had MoHa opening and more or less Styen & Co made it 3 down in opening spell - still once YK & Asad took score to ~340 from 34/4 or so.

For that, I think Test specialists should travel to SAF early. PAK's advantage is that, most of the Test batsmen are sort of specialist - NZ Test Series ends almost 6 weeks before 1st Test, therefore at some capacity (may be in the wrap of A tour) PCB should send Azhar, Asad, Usman, Saad, Shan, and couple of young batsmen - add to that Test specialist bowlers like Wahab, Abbas, Yasir, Rahat, Hamza, may be Rizwan as back-up WK ... to play 3/4, 4 day proper FC games against SAF A or their FC teams, it's a great preparation.

Regarding combination, I am not sure if it should be 5+2+3 (+1) or 6+4. Last time Ajmal played as a genuine No. 11 and still almost won a Test with a 10for at Newlands, therefore I am not a big fan of compromised spinner for the sake of 10-15 extra runs, unless the spin all-rounder is a wicket taking threat. Considering PAK's batting woes and short duration of Tests (last tour, 3 Tests ended inside 4 days, 1st one could have ended in 2 days had SAF enforced the follow on), I don't think 5 bowlers is always essential. It's good to have 5 bowlers, but I would like to take a chance with Haris as back up for the 5th bowler - don't think, win or loss PAK is going to bowl more than 170 overs, therefore 4 regular bowlers
bowling around 150 overs, and 15-20 from Haris can do, he isn't that bad.

I'll go with this playing XI at Centurion -

Azhar, Imam
Haris, Asad, Babar, Open spot (may be FZ),
Sarfraz
Amir, Wahab (Hasan), Shaheen & Abbas

Yes - no specialist spinner. Centurion is a sort of grave yard for spinners - spinners average 50+ there (pacers around half) and that spinner's figure is skewed a bit for one & only Muralitharan (Warne's only Test had figures of 36-11-89-0), and Shakib's 6/99 - his best away figure. Yasir doesn't turn much and he won't be effective, while Shadab will go for plenty on that narrow ground having a squire boundary at around 60 metres.

At New Land's I think, 2 spinners can play, or at least 1, but 3 pacers are must - one of Yasir or Shadab should replace Wahab or Shaheen (Or Hasan). At this point I don't know how fit Yasir will be - if he can bowl 70 overs, he is my 1st choice. Shadab's Test potential still isn't tested - he tends to bowl couple of loose one here & there every over, which makes him risky in low scoring Tests (That series will be low scoring)

Jo'burg is the fastest & bounciest track in SAF and often a better batting wicket (though last time PAK's first innings was 49) - may be one leggi can play, but here PAK will need 3.5 pacers to keep banging on short of length - outside WACA, this was the bounciest track in world, at almost 2000 metres altitude, fast bowlers do fly there. Amir, Abbas, Shaheen/Wahab/Hasan and Fahim should get a game. I probably'll drop one batsman and play both Fahim & Shadab + 3 pacers. This time Shadab comes to cover the batting, otherwise Sarfraz at 6, Fahim at 7 followed by Amir, Yasir, Wahab/Shaheen, Abbas is a bit risky business.

Should be a better series than ENG-IND, but not sure about SAF-IND, that was a fantastic, hard fought series between 2 quality teams.

What specifically makes you think this Pak team is different to the one in 2006/07? The only real point you make is Pak travelling early for practice tests - which is a MUST if we want to get any sort of win. Other than that you've not really stated anything else.

And the bigger question: batsmen for batsmen, and bowler for bowler, SA have the better team (in SA). So again, what are the exact points or qualities does Pakistan possess to cause an upset? I can only see a 3-0 SA win.
 
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What specifically makes you think this Pak team is different to the one in 2006/07? The only real point you make is Pak travelling early for practice tests - which is a MUST if we want to get any sort of win. Other than that you've not really stated anything else.

And the bigger question: batsmen for batsmen, and bowler for bowler, SA have the better team (in SA). So again, what are the exact points or qualities does Pakistan possess to cause an upset? I can only see a 3-0 SA win.


I am not sure if anywhere I mentioned about the comparison of 2006/07 team vs this team. May be, that series ended 2-1 for SAF, this one as I said might end 2-1 for them if few things go in favor of PAK - that 2-1 is probably only similarity that I can find. Anyway, those two PAK teams (of 2006 & 2018) are vastly different - but that's one part of the equation. Other part is whom are they playing - Following are the comparison of 2 SAF XI (most probable for 2018) that 2 different PAK team played/will be playing

1. Smith* – Elgar
2. Gibbs – Markram
3. Kallis - Amla
4. AbdV – Faf*
5. Amla – De Bruyn (Most likely, or Phehlukwayo)
6. Prince – Bavuma
7. Boucher - Kock
8. Pollock - Phillander
9. P Harris - Mahraj
10. Nel/Styen - Styen
11. Ntini - Rabada

I guess, there will be a bit difference - that's only on face value, not considering the respective age & form of the players. It's also a bit spirit damning that, I did put my preferred XI for 3 different venues with reasons, still only real point you could see is travelling early - even Gavaskar knows that, so what's new in it!!! :)

For the 2nd part, by "batsmen for batsmen, and bowler for bowler", England also had a better team than PAK and PAK definitely had a better team than SRL - still it ended 3-3 & 0-2; therefore I don't think direct equation works in this regard. I was responding to one poster, in between the days of 1st & 2nd Test of PAK's last tour of UK in May - when he was a bit too hyper confident about the gap between 2 sides, it's so big (9 wicket win) that any other factor hardly can alter that dominance in 2nd Test - I had to remind him that last tour both teams exchanged wins (1st & 4th v 2nd & 3rd), and last 3 Tests were completely one sided, because Test cricket isn't won by one over, one spell or one session........ eventually, that same team losing by 9 wickets, a week later won the 2nd Test by innings & 100+ margin inside 7 sessions - so, 2&2 is not always 4 in Test, can be 22 as well.

Coming to your question - it indeed can end 3-0 for SAF and there won't be many surprise if it ends such. I can write a whole page on why it should be 3-0, you definitely can do more, hence you see only 3-0. But, provided proper preparation is taken, it's possible to win one Test for sure, may be even 2. There are few points or qualities indeed I can see, which suggests Series should be much closer than expected.

First thing I see is, to my greatest surprise, this PAK side is probably among the best Test catching unit in contemporary world - Poms, Indians, Aussies, even Proteus are dropping regulation catches at random, but since Arthur, PAK's Test catching is quite safe - team'll miss YK at 2nd slip, but team'll also miss MoHa at 1st - net, net ..... This is a tremendous plus point in SAF, where more that 2/3rd wickets are often come through catching and for a team like PAK, if bowlers are to take 25+ wickets to get 20 batsmen out, team'll hardly compete.

2nd reason is, last few Tests PAK had a joker opening in SAF, and it often ended 21/3 by 10th over. This time top 3 can make it 55/1 at lunch - be it in 29 overs. This is a massive advantage for 2 reasons - 1. SAF doesn't have quality spinner to use old ball and Kookaburra is a different ball for pacers after 25 overs or so, 2. last tour PAK's 8, 9 10 & jack were JK, Irfan, Tanvir/Rahat, Ajmal; add Sarfraz at 7, if it's like 50/3, basically one wicket holding the fort from collapse - once that 1 wicket didn't hold, it ended at 49. This time, bottom half isn't that bankrupt - if top order can negotiate Vernon and a 35 years old Styen, my hunch is PAK's last 5 wickets'll add almost similar runs to 1st 5 wickets.

3rd one is obviously I think PAK's attack is better than 2012, definitely more fitter, while SAF's batting has declined alarmingly. I expect it to be a low scoring Series and in low scoring series, gap between two teams reduces significantly - better team gets less opportunity to come back. Regarding bowling, one big issue in 2012 series was that PAK pacers were not match fit for Test - JK was struggling with knee, Irfan was basically 2 spells bowler and Tanvir was 35+, after bunking how many years in certificate God knows. With new ball they did hurt SAF's top order, then ran out of steam - this time, I think PAK pacers are much fitter and that Abbas guy can bowl for 29 overs in a day like bowling machine; it won't be easy for SAF's batsmen. On top of that, Newland's is a better suited wicket for PAK team, in olden days, it was like the Adelaide wicket - PAK should feel more comfortable here.

Over all, the key factor is how top 6 handles SAF's new ball threat, which should determine series result between 3-0 in favor of SAF to even 2-1 in favor of PAK - that's why my entire strategy will be to prepare batsmen as much possible to give bowlers a chance to fight.

Obviously, it still can end 3-0 after 1 months preparation, but as they say - chance favors the prepared mind. PAK might lose 3-0 even after best preparation, but without that, they don't have even a shot at competing for even a day.
 
There is a huge difference between India and Pakistan.

Mickey Arthur

Mark my words! Pakistan will be different Beast when they travel to South Africa.:ma

Yeah the coach is gonna make the team bat and bowl better somehow...

I wasn't expecting Pakistan to win a Test in England and they won it so dominantly while getting dominated in the next Test. It's a very enigmatic team so who knows. If they win, it will be because of their bowling and exposing SA shaky batting order.
 
We'll win every match, but it would still be a fluke cos we lost 5-0 in NZ :mv
 
I think Pakistan this time has a good chance of even winning the series but I have a feeling they will get into good positions in the matches and then blow it away.
 
I am not sure if anywhere I mentioned about the comparison of 2006/07 team vs this team. May be, that series ended 2-1 for SAF, this one as I said might end 2-1 for them if few things go in favor of PAK - that 2-1 is probably only similarity that I can find. Anyway, those two PAK teams (of 2006 & 2018) are vastly different - but that's one part of the equation. Other part is whom are they playing - Following are the comparison of 2 SAF XI (most probable for 2018) that 2 different PAK team played/will be playing

1. Smith* – Elgar
2. Gibbs – Markram
3. Kallis - Amla
4. AbdV – Faf*
5. Amla – De Bruyn (Most likely, or Phehlukwayo)
6. Prince – Bavuma
7. Boucher - Kock
8. Pollock - Phillander
9. P Harris - Mahraj
10. Nel/Styen - Styen
11. Ntini - Rabada

I guess, there will be a bit difference - that's only on face value, not considering the respective age & form of the players. It's also a bit spirit damning that, I did put my preferred XI for 3 different venues with reasons, still only real point you could see is travelling early - even Gavaskar knows that, so what's new in it!!! :)

For the 2nd part, by "batsmen for batsmen, and bowler for bowler", England also had a better team than PAK and PAK definitely had a better team than SRL - still it ended 3-3 & 0-2; therefore I don't think direct equation works in this regard. I was responding to one poster, in between the days of 1st & 2nd Test of PAK's last tour of UK in May - when he was a bit too hyper confident about the gap between 2 sides, it's so big (9 wicket win) that any other factor hardly can alter that dominance in 2nd Test - I had to remind him that last tour both teams exchanged wins (1st & 4th v 2nd & 3rd), and last 3 Tests were completely one sided, because Test cricket isn't won by one over, one spell or one session........ eventually, that same team losing by 9 wickets, a week later won the 2nd Test by innings & 100+ margin inside 7 sessions - so, 2&2 is not always 4 in Test, can be 22 as well.

Coming to your question - it indeed can end 3-0 for SAF and there won't be many surprise if it ends such. I can write a whole page on why it should be 3-0, you definitely can do more, hence you see only 3-0. But, provided proper preparation is taken, it's possible to win one Test for sure, may be even 2. There are few points or qualities indeed I can see, which suggests Series should be much closer than expected.

First thing I see is, to my greatest surprise, this PAK side is probably among the best Test catching unit in contemporary world - Poms, Indians, Aussies, even Proteus are dropping regulation catches at random, but since Arthur, PAK's Test catching is quite safe - team'll miss YK at 2nd slip, but team'll also miss MoHa at 1st - net, net ..... This is a tremendous plus point in SAF, where more that 2/3rd wickets are often come through catching and for a team like PAK, if bowlers are to take 25+ wickets to get 20 batsmen out, team'll hardly compete.

2nd reason is, last few Tests PAK had a joker opening in SAF, and it often ended 21/3 by 10th over. This time top 3 can make it 55/1 at lunch - be it in 29 overs. This is a massive advantage for 2 reasons - 1. SAF doesn't have quality spinner to use old ball and Kookaburra is a different ball for pacers after 25 overs or so, 2. last tour PAK's 8, 9 10 & jack were JK, Irfan, Tanvir/Rahat, Ajmal; add Sarfraz at 7, if it's like 50/3, basically one wicket holding the fort from collapse - once that 1 wicket didn't hold, it ended at 49. This time, bottom half isn't that bankrupt - if top order can negotiate Vernon and a 35 years old Styen, my hunch is PAK's last 5 wickets'll add almost similar runs to 1st 5 wickets.

3rd one is obviously I think PAK's attack is better than 2012, definitely more fitter, while SAF's batting has declined alarmingly. I expect it to be a low scoring Series and in low scoring series, gap between two teams reduces significantly - better team gets less opportunity to come back. Regarding bowling, one big issue in 2012 series was that PAK pacers were not match fit for Test - JK was struggling with knee, Irfan was basically 2 spells bowler and Tanvir was 35+, after bunking how many years in certificate God knows. With new ball they did hurt SAF's top order, then ran out of steam - this time, I think PAK pacers are much fitter and that Abbas guy can bowl for 29 overs in a day like bowling machine; it won't be easy for SAF's batsmen. On top of that, Newland's is a better suited wicket for PAK team, in olden days, it was like the Adelaide wicket - PAK should feel more comfortable here.

Over all, the key factor is how top 6 handles SAF's new ball threat, which should determine series result between 3-0 in favor of SAF to even 2-1 in favor of PAK - that's why my entire strategy will be to prepare batsmen as much possible to give bowlers a chance to fight.

Obviously, it still can end 3-0 after 1 months preparation, but as they say - chance favors the prepared mind. PAK might lose 3-0 even after best preparation, but without that, they don't have even a shot at competing for even a day.

Apologies. I should've made myself clearer in my statement where in 2006/07 was one of our 2 wins in SA (would've mentioned the one in the 90s but I'm too young to know the skill of the players). Your insight is interesting.

Judging by the SA team of 2006/07, they seemed superior. It's no surprise, but Pakistan's team was, in my opinion, better than 2018's team due to it's bowling. Comparison:

1. Mohammad Hafeez - Imam-ul-Haq
2. Imran Farhat - Azhar Ali
3. Younus Khan - Haris Sohail
4. Yasir Hameed - Babar Azam
5. Mohammad Yousuf - Asad Shafiq
6. Inzamam-ul-Haq - Sarfraz Ahmed
7. Kamran Akmal - Faheem Ashraf
8. Mohammad Sami - Shadab Khan
9. Shoaib Akhtar - Hasan Ali
10. Danish Kaneria - Mohammad Amir
11. Mohammad Asif - Mohammad Abbas

My comment was more the fact that your points were valid - I agree with them for the most part - however man-for-man I feel like you're underestimating the SA batting line up. They recently played in SL and the weakest batsman was Amla by a mile, but de Bruyne (ABDVs replacement) played really well to get 100 there. I looked at their performance vs Australia in SA, and again I feel like the Australia team is better than the above Pakistan team but even then they got smashed 3-1 in the series.

Your first point I agree. Our fielding is a lot better than in the past and one of the best in the world. It's a drastic change. A pleasant one.

I don't compare this Pakistan team to the team in 2012, purely because we didn't even win a test or come close to. It's good to see where we've come from there, but I'd rather compare the times where we have won than the times we got absolutely smacked. If you are to compare, then yes overall this team is better because our batting looks more complete, and our bowling looks somewhat threatening. Not as threatening as SA's, but it's more so than in 2012. We've also got more confidence having beaten England in England, so we're going into SA looking fresh with young faces and new faces. Will be a lot better to see than the teams of the past.

Your third point I've sort of touched on. But SA's batting hasn't declined. Elgar and Markham are very good, where one of them usually gets in and gets at least a 50. De Bruyne is someone new, and as I mentioned before scored a century in SL. Amla isn't who he is. Du Plessis is class, and the trio of De Kock, Bavuma and Philander can easily stand up to our trio of Faheem, Sarfraz and Shadab, and you gotta favour the former since it's in SA conditions.

I'm not undermining the Pak team. I think we're a couple players off to be world beaters but SA aren't a rubbish team by any means, especially at home. The SA vs Aus series is all I need to see to predict the outcome of our tour, and I'd be pleasantly surprised if it doesn't end up 3-0.
 
Apologies. I should've made myself clearer in my statement where in 2006/07 was one of our 2 wins in SA (would've mentioned the one in the 90s but I'm too young to know the skill of the players). Your insight is interesting.

Judging by the SA team of 2006/07, they seemed superior. It's no surprise, but Pakistan's team was, in my opinion, better than 2018's team due to it's bowling. Comparison:

1. Mohammad Hafeez - Imam-ul-Haq
2. Imran Farhat - Azhar Ali
3. Younus Khan - Haris Sohail
4. Yasir Hameed - Babar Azam
5. Mohammad Yousuf - Asad Shafiq
6. Inzamam-ul-Haq - Sarfraz Ahmed
7. Kamran Akmal - Faheem Ashraf
8. Mohammad Sami - Shadab Khan
9. Shoaib Akhtar - Hasan Ali
10. Danish Kaneria - Mohammad Amir
11. Mohammad Asif - Mohammad Abbas

My comment was more the fact that your points were valid - I agree with them for the most part - however man-for-man I feel like you're underestimating the SA batting line up. They recently played in SL and the weakest batsman was Amla by a mile, but de Bruyne (ABDVs replacement) played really well to get 100 there. I looked at their performance vs Australia in SA, and again I feel like the Australia team is better than the above Pakistan team but even then they got smashed 3-1 in the series.

Your first point I agree. Our fielding is a lot better than in the past and one of the best in the world. It's a drastic change. A pleasant one.

I don't compare this Pakistan team to the team in 2012, purely because we didn't even win a test or come close to. It's good to see where we've come from there, but I'd rather compare the times where we have won than the times we got absolutely smacked. If you are to compare, then yes overall this team is better because our batting looks more complete, and our bowling looks somewhat threatening. Not as threatening as SA's, but it's more so than in 2012. We've also got more confidence having beaten England in England, so we're going into SA looking fresh with young faces and new faces. Will be a lot better to see than the teams of the past.

Your third point I've sort of touched on. But SA's batting hasn't declined. Elgar and Markham are very good, where one of them usually gets in and gets at least a 50. De Bruyne is someone new, and as I mentioned before scored a century in SL. Amla isn't who he is. Du Plessis is class, and the trio of De Kock, Bavuma and Philander can easily stand up to our trio of Faheem, Sarfraz and Shadab, and you gotta favour the former since it's in SA conditions.

I'm not undermining the Pak team. I think we're a couple players off to be world beaters but SA aren't a rubbish team by any means, especially at home. The SA vs Aus series is all I need to see to predict the outcome of our tour, and I'd be pleasantly surprised if it doesn't end up 3-0.

Thanks.

There are 2 critical factors here for not to compare SAF against AUS/IND and SAF in next summer.

First is AbDv - that guy is easily an ATG and he was the difference in both series. Take him out, out of 7 Tests (6 actually, Aussies just completed formalities in last Test), I doubt how may SAF would have won.

Second factor is that, their best players are running fast towards the wrong age for a Test batsman. Amla will be close to 36, Faf around 35, Styen 35+. For Amla & Faf, they have reached to a critical age where most batsmen start to struggle against quality attack - it won't be apparent if they play SRL or BD attack at home, but facing 4 wicket taking bowlers relentlessly is totally different proposition. Apart from that, SAF has used their non white quota too much this year - won't be surprised if both Bavuma & Phelu@#%$@ both makes the starting XI.

In Test, batting never works individually - a batting leader is must to put any substantial total. In ODI, 6/7 players put quick fire 30s & 40s, one can post a very good total; in T20 may be even 2/3 can do that; but in Test you need a master batsman to dominate batting to create a telling difference. This time, I don't see SAF having any, neither PAK, so it balances out.

I think, in sports one can't play with a looser mentality - in that regard PAK shouldn't even tour SAF, if an unconditional surrender is in mind. Rather, teams should prepare to pluck gaps in weak areas, keeping the their strong suit tight.

I am definitely not overestimating PAK, but it's possible to beat SAF in a Test or even 2, if preparation is there. SRL & WIN have won one Test each in SAF against a far better team. To win a Test, first you need to have the capacity to take 20 wickets - which I think is there, particularly against this SAF batting. Rest is all about couple of batsmen standing tall - in past Asad has done it in ENG, SAF, AUS; Azhar has his role clearly defined, while Babar is definitely better player than his Test average, at one point he'll make it up.
This time, tail is much better (Wahab, Yasir or Hasan would have batted at 8 in last tour), catching is better and team is far more united - only weak link is Sarfraz, if he can pull socks; it'll be a close series.
 
Thanks.

There are 2 critical factors here for not to compare SAF against AUS/IND and SAF in next summer.

First is AbDv - that guy is easily an ATG and he was the difference in both series. Take him out, out of 7 Tests (6 actually, Aussies just completed formalities in last Test), I doubt how may SAF would have won.

Second factor is that, their best players are running fast towards the wrong age for a Test batsman. Amla will be close to 36, Faf around 35, Styen 35+. For Amla & Faf, they have reached to a critical age where most batsmen start to struggle against quality attack - it won't be apparent if they play SRL or BD attack at home, but facing 4 wicket taking bowlers relentlessly is totally different proposition. Apart from that, SAF has used their non white quota too much this year - won't be surprised if both Bavuma & Phelu@#%$@ both makes the starting XI.

In Test, batting never works individually - a batting leader is must to put any substantial total. In ODI, 6/7 players put quick fire 30s & 40s, one can post a very good total; in T20 may be even 2/3 can do that; but in Test you need a master batsman to dominate batting to create a telling difference. This time, I don't see SAF having any, neither PAK, so it balances out.

I think, in sports one can't play with a looser mentality - in that regard PAK shouldn't even tour SAF, if an unconditional surrender is in mind. Rather, teams should prepare to pluck gaps in weak areas, keeping the their strong suit tight.

I am definitely not overestimating PAK, but it's possible to beat SAF in a Test or even 2, if preparation is there. SRL & WIN have won one Test each in SAF against a far better team. To win a Test, first you need to have the capacity to take 20 wickets - which I think is there, particularly against this SAF batting. Rest is all about couple of batsmen standing tall - in past Asad has done it in ENG, SAF, AUS; Azhar has his role clearly defined, while Babar is definitely better player than his Test average, at one point he'll make it up.
This time, tail is much better (Wahab, Yasir or Hasan would have batted at 8 in last tour), catching is better and team is far more united - only weak link is Sarfraz, if he can pull socks; it'll be a close series.

Hm, fair enough about the ABDV argument.

Ah, but vsing Aus they faced Starc, Hazlewood, Cummins, Lyon. You telling me that Abbas, Amir and Hasan are better than the 3 pacers of the Aussies? The 3-1 series win not only showed that age isn't a factor for their bowlers, but that they get the most out of the wickets too. And if they're capable of getting the Aussie team out twice for 20 wickets - which included Warner and Smith - then they're more than capable of doing the same vsing our batting, for a lesser score. In your opinion, is the Aus side better than Pakistans? For me it's a yes. If you are going to comment about the pitch and how SA have Maharaj who did very well vsing Aus at times, and Pakistan has Yasir - the best leggie in Test cricket - who will torment the SA batsmen, then maybe that is true, on certain pitches though. I've seen SA batsmen struggle against the SL leggie in limited overs so Yasir is definitely an important player for the tests, no doubt.

Ah yes, consistency. I agree with you that both sides lack consistent scorers, but I'd still put SA batters marginally ahead of Pakistans.

lol I'm not saying we should never visit SA, it's just that in my opinion we just won't win. That's all.

I agree that it can be a close series - closer than Ind v Eng anyway - with the right mindset. I think, like Ind, if we lose the first test match we could just crumble and lose 3-0 and get whooped. Hoping that's not the case.
 
3-0 to SA. No questions there. Though Pakistan has done well against England, but I am curious to know how would they fare against Anderson, Broad, Stokes, Woakes and Curran, with all five match fit. Whenever India tours, we usually have to face their top bowlers in extreme conditions.

We have won one test in SA and I am confident we will win two more in England and atleast two in Australia. Although it will not be the ideal result befitting number 1 team but it is what is in this era of home track bullies and that would put any question to rest that India is undisputed test champions currently.
 
They can if they can score enough runs against Steyn, Rabada and Philander. Pakistan's bowling is always good and SA batting is not the same it used to be. India were able to bowl them out in all 6 innings during their tour which has never happened in the 26 years we have been playing Test cricket in SA.
 
Steyn is a spent force. If he bowls a lot overs / plays all tests Pakistan will actually be fortunate.

Rabada is a real threat now. Genuine strike bowler. Pace. Skills. X factor.

Ngidi is quick, tall and express. Could blow an innings away in this series. Will likely mop up a tail too if it's quick & bouncy.

Philander is deadly in the right conditions, if it nibbles. Less spectacular but equal to Anderson almost when it suits. And always tidy otherwise. He'll hold a line and keep it tight while others roar in at the very least.

Pakistan also has a varied attack but no-one quite as quick or reliable in Tests imo. The attack is more than capable of 20 wickets but I see less ability to shred an order apart.

Therefore yes, can win a test. BUT it will take a huge batting effort. A career defining or once in a lifetime innings perhaps or an entire top order just about in good nick and regularly contributing 30, 50, 70 so that the tail are not blown away by fresh quicks with the wind in their sails.
 
Pakistan can beat SA , they need to play to there potential.

The batting unit has to play as a team , each player should look to contribute , and target at least 300 in each innings.
 
I expect the RSA to comfortably defeat us. Our bowling will cause them problems but our batting will struggle to reach even 200.
 
Nope. I don't think so. Batsmen have to face kagiso and co. not Indian trundlers. Bowlers will do fine as usual.
Oh boy! Those indian trundlers destroyed this protea batting lineup ( Inc abdv) in that last match at the wanderers. Stop being naive or sarcastic ( if you're really trying to be) .
 
The only contest I'm looking forward to is that of between Philander and Abbas. Im sure Abbas will do well in sha Allah. Hé is our best hope besides Azhar.
 
Not with this bowling attack.
Yeah. Far too many loopholes in the team. Having said that South Africa is not the perfect unit either.

If we tweak our line up a bit and have the right balance, we still have a chance.
 
The title of this thread should be - "Can Pakistan drag a match to 4th day?"
 
Expecting at least two sub-100 scores.

This has 3-0 to South Africa written all over it.
 
Can Pak avoid a less than 50 score?

That should be the real question.
 
Still sticking with that historic 2-1 series win. Stay tuned.
 
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