Champions Trophy Final 2017: Virat Kohli's (toss) decision to bowl first

[DHONI183]

I´d like to know from our Indian posters out there as to what they make of that decision, and especially what their reactions were at that time immediately after the toss.

Hindsight is a great thing as you all know, so to criticise him purely based on the loss may not be fair, but I thought this might make for an interesting discussion.

Yes, the wicket didn´t change much at all throughout the day and it was a batting beauty, yes, the Indian batsmen chase well and in fact prefer doing that. So I can definitely understand the thought process behind that decision.

However, beyond that, a few things need considerations, the first of which of course would be that it was a final - the ultimate pressure game. 2. Pakistan aren´t quite the best chasers and in this tournament itself they almost goofed up a simple chase of 230+ against Sri Lanka despite a great start, and weren´t quite as convincing in their chase over South Africa either.

3. This is the most important one in my opinion. There was no cloud cover or overcast conditions when the toss took place. So to deduce something out of the pitch earlier on wasn´t quite an option. Neither was there anything outrageous to consider such as dew later on in the day. So the pitch and the conditions were going to stay the same throughout the day - a point that, on the contrary, Kohli makes in favour of his decision.

This isn´t an agenda-driven thread or criticism of Kohli. I´m just kind of trying to present the other side of the picture. I feel for him, because had Sarfraz won the toss he´d have done the same - as admitted by the latter at the toss - which too wouldn´t have been the best decision either in my opinion. As I said in jest ahead of the final, deep down both the captains would´ve been wishing not to win the toss altogether.

 

[CricketAnalyst]

I´d like to know from our Indian posters out there as to what they make of that decision, and especially what their reactions were at that time immediately after the toss.

Hindsight is a great thing as you all know, so to criticise him purely based on the loss may not be fair, but I thought this might make for an interesting discussion.

Yes, the wicket didn´t change much at all throughout the day and it was a batting beauty, yes, the Indian batsmen chase well and in fact prefer doing that. So I can definitely understand the thought process behind that decision.

However, beyond that, a few things need considerations, the first of which of course would be that it was a final - the ultimate pressure game. 2. Pakistan aren´t quite the best chasers and in this tournament itself they almost goofed up a simple chase of 230+ against Sri Lanka despite a great start, and weren´t quite as convincing in their chase over South Africa either.

3. This is the most important one in my opinion. There was no cloud cover or overcast conditions when the toss took place. So to deduce something out of the pitch earlier on wasn´t quite an option. Neither was there anything outrageous to consider such as dew later on in the day. So the pitch and the conditions were going to stay the same throughout the day - a point that, on the contrary, Kohli makes in favour of his decision.

This isn´t an agenda-driven thread or criticism of Kohli. I´m just kind of trying to present the other side of the picture. I feel for him, because had Sarfraz won the toss he´d have done the same - as admitted by the latter at the toss - which too wouldn´t have been the best decision either in my opinion. As I said in jest ahead of the final, deep down both the captains would´ve been wishing not to win the toss altogether.

I fully support that decision. It was the right decision. It was the decision Sarfraz would have made.

Given the way the teams played, even if Sarfraz won and chased, Pakistan would still have won the game. Toss did not decide the game. India lost despite chasing, not because of it.

Please do bear in mind, 8 out of the last 9 games were won by the side chasing.

 

[Mlscicfan]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing

 

[Abdullah]

I said at the time I hope pak lose the toss and get inserted.
Bowling made no sense to me at all

 

[Tusker]

I´d like to know from our Indian posters out there as to what they make of that decision, and especially what their reactions were at that time immediately after the toss.

Hindsight is a great thing as you all know, so to criticise him purely based on the loss may not be fair, but I thought this might make for an interesting discussion.

Yes, the wicket didn´t change much at all throughout the day and it was a batting beauty, yes, the Indian batsmen chase well and in fact prefer doing that. So I can definitely understand the thought process behind that decision.

However, beyond that, a few things need considerations, the first of which of course would be that it was a final - the ultimate pressure game. 2. Pakistan aren´t quite the best chasers and in this tournament itself they almost goofed up a simple chase of 230+ against Sri Lanka despite a great start, and weren´t quite as convincing in their chase over South Africa either.

3. This is the most important one in my opinion. There was no cloud cover or overcast conditions when the toss took place. So to deduce something out of the pitch earlier on wasn´t quite an option. Neither was there anything outrageous to consider such as dew later on in the day. So the pitch and the conditions were going to stay the same throughout the day - a point that, on the contrary, Kohli makes in favour of his decision.

This isn´t an agenda-driven thread or criticism of Kohli. I´m just kind of trying to present the other side of the picture. I feel for him, because had Sarfraz won the toss he´d have done the same - as admitted by the latter at the toss - which too wouldn´t have been the best decision either in my opinion. As I said in jest ahead of the final, deep down both the captains would´ve been wishing not to win the toss altogether.

MSD would have probably batted first but you don't win games based on how the toss pans out. To me there were too many tactical errors made by Kohli and he seemed to be banking on Pakistan batsmen making mistakes rather than making things happen. With luck squarely against him it made things quite difficult. Team selection wise Ashwin should not have played instead Yadav or Shami were more suited for this surface.

 

[Arsalan Pro]

Nothing wrong with his decision as it had many reasons for it.

Firstly, as Pakistan's strength was chasing throughout the tournament so Kohli tried to downplay that by asking them to bat first and wanted to test them with something they hadn't done all tournament.

Secondly, chasing was working well for India and it has been their strength, they had just defeated South Africa and Bangladesh through chasing by restricting them to a small total and Kohli thought he can do it again but he failed.

Thirdly, India's game at the same ground (Oval) that was against Sri Lanka resulted in a lost in which they batted first and from that match chasing seemed a easier prospect. This might have a psychological effect on Kohli's mind to chase no matter what.

Fourthly, India still might have backed themselves to chase that huge target had their reliable top 3 scored on one of the flattest tracks in the world and for that credit goes to only one man (Amir), who himself destroyed tournament's top 3 batsmen on a batting paradise. What a unplayable spell he bowled which was completely out of their minds at the start of the match/chase.

 

[sali]

I see two reasons for Kohli taking this decision:

1. Pakistan chasing down in last 2-3 games and it was clear if Sarfraz won the toss he would chase too.
2. India's strength and Kohli's confidence lies in his batting. He was confident of chasing anything Pak put on the board. Probably not confident about his bowlers defending a total.

At the end he underestimated both Pak batting and bowling so it doesn't matter if he had batted first.

 

[SarfiBabarHaris]

Pakistan would have won anyways.

We were on fire.

 

[LastManstanding]

Kohli was afraid of repeat of SL match and he backed his batsmen to chase the target rather than his bowlers to defend whatever target his batsmen set.

 

[shaz619]

I´d like to know from our Indian posters out there as to what they make of that decision, and especially what their reactions were at that time immediately after the toss.

Hindsight is a great thing as you all know, so to criticise him purely based on the loss may not be fair, but I thought this might make for an interesting discussion.

Yes, the wicket didn´t change much at all throughout the day and it was a batting beauty, yes, the Indian batsmen chase well and in fact prefer doing that. So I can definitely understand the thought process behind that decision.

However, beyond that, a few things need considerations, the first of which of course would be that it was a final - the ultimate pressure game. 2. Pakistan aren´t quite the best chasers and in this tournament itself they almost goofed up a simple chase of 230+ against Sri Lanka despite a great start, and weren´t quite as convincing in their chase over South Africa either.

3. This is the most important one in my opinion. There was no cloud cover or overcast conditions when the toss took place. So to deduce something out of the pitch earlier on wasn´t quite an option. Neither was there anything outrageous to consider such as dew later on in the day. So the pitch and the conditions were going to stay the same throughout the day - a point that, on the contrary, Kohli makes in favour of his decision.

This isn´t an agenda-driven thread or criticism of Kohli. I´m just kind of trying to present the other side of the picture. I feel for him, because had Sarfraz won the toss he´d have done the same - as admitted by the latter at the toss - which too wouldn´t have been the best decision either in my opinion. As I said in jest ahead of the final, deep down both the captains would´ve been wishing not to win the toss altogether.

Pakistan still got over the line and got better with each chase, they peaked against England:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/icc-champions-trophy-2017/engine/match/1022371.html

Barely any hiccups in that chase and they won compatibly at a healthy RR by 8 wickets in the end. So Sarfraz was supremely confident about pulling off another chase, yes it was a final but you stick to your tournament strengths and even last year in Cardiff Pak pulled of a 300+ chase against England to. So it made even more sense for Virat to bowl first, obviously India fancy themselves as chasers and the other reason was to negate Pakistan's tournament strength which strangely was chasing!

 

[cr7great]

kumble wanted to bat first

 

[omcswe]

kumble wanted to bat first

hindsight makes everyone smart.

 

[Sherlock]

Tbh, I thought he got the call spot on, and I expected Kohli to bowl first before the game anyway [had he won the toss].

I thought if Pakistan won the toss they'd choose to bowl 1st too, as that was a likelier way to beat India.

 

[RamLakhan]

Your observations are good, but these are just surface observations. Who knows, if Pak had bowled first Amir would have been even more lethal (fresh morning, fresh body) and got India out even more cheaply and made an even more miserable game for India to their memory! At least now we can feel the consolation that we were chasing a mammoth total on finals and got bowled out! (Which happens to most teams!)

The problem is with Kohli's captaincy, his defensive approach... I am sure it wouldn't have changed anything even if we batted first! Pak was the sure winner on that day, because they seized the situation and lifted their game! India with this attitude from Kohli is going to win only against even more shaky teams like South Africa, West Indies, etc! (Even a determined Srilanka killed us!)

I am already feeling the pain of what disaster can Kohli's captaincy and attitude can do to our team. Because I am sure India/BCCI will continue his captaincy till next world cup for sure (minimum). Kohli will retain his captaincy because of his stardom and his tactical mistakes will be ignored/sidelined because of wins at home and wins against weaker opposition! Unfortunately India will continue to lose such important matches/trophies unless Kohli dramatically changes his attitude and improves his tactics on the field (he is good at his own batting tactics, he sure cannot handle others!) Please don't compare him to Ponting. Ponting showed aggression but he never messed up with his tactics and handling the legends around him.

India has such a fine side now (I was so happy particularly at the improvement in fast bowling and fielding standards! We are even looking at a fast bowling alrounder in Pandya). Alas we may not achieve much with Kohli's attitudes, the coach issues, etc. We were talking about Dhoni's luck during his captaincy where we won so many important matches/tournaments, but that mere luck, cool-head, favoring certain players or whatever was way-way better than this attitude/downplay simply because it was giving us results!

I am sure nobody (including fans), BCCI or anyone will realize this threat (Kohli's captaincy) before everything goes out of hand... Unfortunately!

 

[proud_pakistani]

Many Indians seem to be talking about Kohli making an error in judgement at the toss and many blaming the loss on him as a result. I feel Kohli probably should have batter first but even then it gave them no reason to lose by 180 runs. Their bowling plan was to dry up the runs and hope Pakistan gift their wickets and the other mindset was whatever Pakistan score we can chase it. The whole ideology behind it was wrong. Ashwin was bowling a negative line which was sad to see. I definitely lost a lot of respect for Ashwin after this game.

Anyhow Pakistan was just too good on the day. Aamir would have picked up those 3 wickets regardless whether we bowled or batted first. In fact he would have caused more damage if Pakistan bowled first.

 

[Minku]

It was the right decision based on Pakistan and India's strength and weaknesses. Sarfraz would have done the same thing.

1. India loves to chase and have gunned down massive total before.
2. India has a hard time defending a total even above 320+ e.g. Srilanka, and multiple others in last 4-5 years.
3. Pakistan had won all their games chasing so why give them a chance to feel confident.

If a strategy has worked before why change it. Its just Amir threw a inswinger in their plans and killed the game in 8 overs.

 

[Itachi]

Decision was right. But when you have two weak batsman, and inclusion of two spinners which made no sense at all, toss would never have played any role.

 

[Saurav]

It wasn't a bad decision,though you'd argue why did he play 2 spinners if he intended on bowling first

But the way we played,we'd have lost regardless

 

[RamLakhan]

Aamir is the peak-most player in the Pakistani lineup in terms of talent and skills (the one who makes decisive difference between the teams at the key moment), like Kohli is for India! Aamir has come out of his miseries and now he is at the best of his game. While Kolhi is not so good with form, coming out of injury and captaincy (& coach issues) is affecting him. Aamir played a decisive role in the match while Kohli got out cheaply! That tells the story! It is Aamir vs Kohli which won for Pakistan. Fakhar played a good innings but Pandya also played similar role for India in the match! Luck might have helped Pakistan (Fakhar escaping a dismissal on no-ball, while Pandya getting run-out), but still even that (luck) is not the sole factor which helped Pakistan. Playing Ashwin, not playing Shami (look how Aamir was given the chance immediately after the injury) so many mess for India!

 

[RamLakhan]

Anyhow this happened for good. We should get rid of Yuvaraj, Dhoni at least now. Also maybe one of Jaddu/Ashwin and Rohit. But if Kohli keeps on praising Yuvaraj, Rohit to skies and dominates the entire team-management, coaching, etc, it won't help anything. Kohli should start thinking that this is "Indian Cricket Team" and not his personal family team to run it according to his wish! Otherwise he will lose his captaincy on one fine day and also maybe deteriorate as a player (for God sake he should quit captaincy before he loses all the focus on his batting! It is ominous signs both for Indian team and Kohli as a player if this continues!)

 

[MRSN]

Aamir is the peak-most player in the Pakistani lineup in terms of talent and skills (the one who makes decisive difference between the teams at the key moment), like Kohli is for India! Aamir has come out of his miseries and now he is at the best of his game. While Kolhi is not so good with form, coming out of injury and captaincy (& coach issues) is affecting him. Aamir played a decisive role in the match while Kohli got out cheaply! That tells the story! It is Aamir vs Kohli which won for Pakistan. Fakhar played a good innings but Pandya also played similar role for India in the match! Luck might have helped Pakistan (Fakhar escaping a dismissal on no-ball, while Pandya getting run-out), but still even that (luck) is not the sole factor which helped Pakistan. Playing Ashwin, not playing Shami (look how Aamir was given the chance immediately after the injury) so many mess for India!

agreed.

Kohli is the one who has been holding this Indian batting together for a long long time. The psychological advantage for Pak getting him out early was huge. We have faced last few defeats against India only due to Kohli's specials.

 

[adil_909]

It was the 100% logical decision. But there was nothing logical about Pakistan's performance and our victory can not be explained using math and statistics. It was just our day. Batting or bowling first, wouldn't have mattered.

 

[Itachi]

Aamir is the peak-most player in the Pakistani lineup in terms of talent and skills (the one who makes decisive difference between the teams at the key moment), like Kohli is for India! Aamir has come out of his miseries and now he is at the best of his game. While Kolhi is not so good with form, coming out of injury and captaincy (& coach issues) is affecting him. Aamir played a decisive role in the match while Kohli got out cheaply! That tells the story! It is Aamir vs Kohli which won for Pakistan. Fakhar played a good innings but Pandya also played similar role for India in the match! Luck might have helped Pakistan (Fakhar escaping a dismissal on no-ball, while Pandya getting run-out), but still even that (luck) is not the sole factor which helped Pakistan. Playing Ashwin, not playing Shami (look how Aamir was given the chance immediately after the injury) so many mess for India!

I disagree to this. India lost the match mentally before Pakistan innings ended.

You could see in the body language.

 

[Raf Pragmatic]

I disagree to this. India lost the match mentally before Pakistan innings ended.

You could see in the body language.

So Itachi now lives in russia!
Anyway, you are kinda right. 300+ runs in final is always tough to chase.

 

[Raf Pragmatic]

If India had not lost 5 quick wickets, yet 280 was the border line I believe.

 

[DHONI183]

Sarfraz is on Samaa TV right now, and is kind of echoing my point about both the captains deep down wishing not to win the toss altogether. His words were.... "When we lost the toss, I said that it's after all a good thing."

kumble wanted to bat first

Any sources on that? Regardless, spreading such a rumour right now will sell the most. So I can understand where these 'reports' are coming from.