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CSA to make quota system stricter, willing to pay teams to include more non-White South Africans

soso_killer

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Interesting article on a sensitive topic.
CSA pay for black players
March 28, 2015

The Highveld Lions regularly exceed quota
Every franchise in South Africa is to get a one-off payment of R350 000 to pay for the extra black players demanded by Cricket South Africa in their new quotas directive.

CSA have decided that every franchise must increase the number of players of colour to six, and ensure that three are black African in the new season (2015-16), increasing the quota by one.

Teams playing in all semi-professional matches will stay at the current requirement of least six players of colour and a minimum of three black African players.

*The Board has also resolved to make available a one-off subsidy of R350*000 per franchise to set off the costs of contracting an additional Black African player. This is designed to assist franchises who may have already completed the contracting of players for the 2015-16 season and will not be repeated in future seasons.

Earlier, the South Africa Cricketers’ Association had considered legal action because, they said, there had been no consultation, and they were concerned about the financial effect of recruiting extra players at such a late stage, after contracts had been finalised.

‘We are clear that the Affiliate and Franchise Presidents, CEOs and their coaches have the direct responsibility to increase the pool of black players,’ said CSA chief executive Haroon Lorgat. ‘Our previous initiatives have shown success and we are committed to achieve representation for all our people and remain the best team in the world’.

He noted that many franchises had already exceeded the requirements: The Highveld Lions who have already clinched the Sunfoil Series going into the final round have regularly fielded four black African players and they have all been selected on merit; the Dolphins have fielded five black African players at various stages of the same competition; the Titans, have fielded three black African players.

This is a good initiative, that needs a good balance.
It is important to remember that not every contracted white guy is a good cricketer either.
Some went to private schools and got exposed to environments that the black population never had. This includes coaches at school level who make recommendations to provincial/franchise coaches about talent that might not be there whilst the guy playing in the township don't get to enjoy such luxuries and privileges.

Remember a black contracted player does not exactly mean a walk through to the starting XI.
There was a survey a few years back which showed that whilst the are a lot of black kids at provincial level than white players. Less than 30% of them get awarded contracts while 80% of the whites get contracts at franchise level, something is very wrong with those numbers.
CSA are taking the aggressive progressive approach, by giving a subsidy to those who offer contracts to players of colour in their youth structures.
 
Remember quotas is not just black players.
Guys like Amla (Indian), JP (coloured), Tahir (Asian), Phangiso (African) are example of a successful quota system. Even though they are playing on merit
 
Cricket South Africa also has another initiative which is called along the lines of a"Rural Development" plan.
The 1st thing that comes to mind to cynics and nay-sayers is "oh another quota system".
Well its not only black players from the rural parts of the country who fall under this category.
Three of this countries best were from the rural areas, L. Klusner, M. Ntini and Dale Steyn.
We can't just rely on the model C schools to provide the talent for us.
As we can see our talent has come from vast parts of the country instead of just the big cities like Cape Town, Jo'burg and Durban.
 
very good black africans dont usually like cricket they are more into football but good initiative to promote the game in all parts of sa
 
I'm quite strongly against this "method" of including minorities into the game. The aim of CSA should not be to introduce quotas into the game, but rather eradicate racism from the game altogether! If more than the 'quota' of coloured players deserve to be in the team based on merit, THEY SHOULD BE. However, if they do not deserve to be in the team based on merit, and are only there based on their skin colour, that too is WRONG!

We should ask ourselves why we have to resort to this kind of primitive and illogical thinking? Why three coloured players? Why not eight? Or one? It should all depend on whether they deserve to be there or not!

I have the exact same problem with feminists. I for one believe in equality, do not get me wrong there! But I believe the methods used achieving equality are flawed! Quotas should be the absolute last resort for feminists. Quotas basically force representation, and do not take into account the capabilities of men and women. If more than 50% of women are better equipped at doing a job than men are, they should do it! Definitely! But if more than 50% of men are better at a certain job, they should do it! It should not be 50-50 just for the heck of it.

CSA needs to remove corruption and racism from their roots, not just enforce quotas.
 
I'm quite strongly against this "method" of including minorities into the game. The aim of CSA should not be to introduce quotas into the game, but rather eradicate racism from the game altogether! If more than the 'quota' of coloured players deserve to be in the team based on merit, THEY SHOULD BE. However, if they do not deserve to be in the team based on merit, and are only there based on their skin colour, that too is WRONG!

We should ask ourselves why we have to resort to this kind of primitive and illogical thinking? Why three coloured players? Why not eight? Or one? It should all depend on whether they deserve to be there or not!

I have the exact same problem with feminists. I for one believe in equality, do not get me wrong there! But I believe the methods used achieving equality are flawed! Quotas should be the absolute last resort for feminists. Quotas basically force representation, and do not take into account the capabilities of men and women. If more than 50% of women are better equipped at doing a job than men are, they should do it! Definitely! But if more than 50% of men are better at a certain job, they should do it! It should not be 50-50 just for the heck of it.

CSA needs to remove corruption and racism from their roots, not just enforce quotas.

Ditto. Quota system is almost always wrong and it introduces a new method of discrimination that it seeks to abolish. Equal opportunity for all is the keyword here - not equal representation which should always be based on merit not quota.
 
Ditto. Quota system is almost always wrong and it introduces a new method of discrimination that it seeks to abolish. Equal opportunity for all is the keyword here - not equal representation which should always be based on merit not quota.

In a way - true.

Quotas have pros and cons and they are required based on situations.

However it would be good to live in a world someday when no one cares about the color of your skin or the God of your choice. Yes, i watch too much Star Trek .. but still, a man can dream ....
 
very good black africans dont usually like cricket they are more into football but good initiative to promote the game in all parts of sa

That's a myth, most players turn into football due to cricket being too expensive. Forget the equipment, but most of the training/grounds are in the suburbs. To travel back and fourth is expensive for the African community.
 
I'm quite strongly against this "method" of including minorities into the game. The aim of CSA should not be to introduce quotas into the game, but rather eradicate racism from the game altogether! If more than the 'quota' of coloured players deserve to be in the team based on merit, THEY SHOULD BE. However, if they do not deserve to be in the team based on merit, and are only there based on their skin colour, that too is WRONG!

We should ask ourselves why we have to resort to this kind of primitive and illogical thinking? Why three coloured players? Why not eight? Or one? It should all depend on whether they deserve to be there or not!

I have the exact same problem with feminists. I for one believe in equality, do not get me wrong there! But I believe the methods used achieving equality are flawed! Quotas should be the absolute last resort for feminists. Quotas basically force representation, and do not take into account the capabilities of men and women. If more than 50% of women are better equipped at doing a job than men are, they should do it! Definitely! But if more than 50% of men are better at a certain job, they should do it! It should not be 50-50 just for the heck of it.

CSA needs to remove corruption and racism from their roots, not just enforce quotas.

These quotas have to be implemented simple as that.
The minority which is the white kids have an unfair advantage.
1) Have parents who can drive them to these facilities easily.
2) Mingle with coaches at an early age and form a bond and later on get an easy contract.
They have an easy accesses to these facilities and CSA once to level the playing field.

Remember J. Kallis has a scholarship foundation were he offered kids from underprivileged communities access to the world class education to these schools they would ordinarily not afford. These schools have full time coaches which explains why an 18 year old white teen might look the real deal than say an 18 year african kid.

No one is saying let's ignore our best talents but le us not kid ourselves there are plenty of mediocre white players in our franchise cricket too. All because they knew these coaches at an early age and a rich dead who puts pressure on these coaches to select his kid coz he has invested a lot in him and drove him to junior cricket all his life.

If a great player like Kallis acknowledges there are problems and disparities within the system, then there are.
 
I agree with quota system (affirmative action) till the years of abuse is eradicated ... Its not an ideal world out there so we need to support minorities .. Good job CSA.
 
Ditto. Quota system is almost always wrong and it introduces a new method of discrimination that it seeks to abolish. Equal opportunity for all is the keyword here - not equal representation which should always be based on merit not quota.

Wrong. Quota system went a long way towards getting rights to minorities in most countries. Now just because some minorities are getting equal right, the majority has been crying and whining. Some things are more important than a game.

How exactly do you mean representation should be on merit? Does the poor dalit whose father cannot afford his son's meals, his school fees, his coaching fees compare the same with the son from a good family who had 10 tutors right from childhood? What is a system is rotten from inside? If CSA feels that blacks are discriminated at lower, domestic levels and they need this quota for black players to come through?

Quota is always wrong is used by people who never had the need for one.
 
Proteas going the way of Baffana. More chance for Pakistan to rise to the top! #corneredtigers
 
Ditto. Quota system is almost always wrong and it introduces a new method of discrimination that it seeks to abolish. Equal opportunity for all is the keyword here - not equal representation which should always be based on merit not quota.

But that's the thing a white kid and an african one don't have the same opportunities.
Cricket facilities are in the City were its a 10 minute drive for the white kid. The african/coloured has to catch a taxi if he can afford one, not to mention at certain hours transportation back home becomes a problem.
There is no level playing field whatsoever.
During apartheid years the regime made sure the african community were not a walking distance from the City and far away as possible. How does a black kid concentrate on his cricket or education when he is starving at night?
Its what CSA once to stop, if a player is contracted then he'll concentrate more on his cricket and won't have to worry about the burden of supporting his family.
 
Wrong. Quota system went a long way towards getting rights to minorities in most countries. Now just because some minorities are getting equal right, the majority has been crying and whining.

White's are the minority.
 
Proteas going the way of Baffana. More chance for Pakistan to rise to the top! #corneredtigers

Did you know that in model C schools there is a full time cricket, rugby, swimming, tennis coach etc, a piano teacher schools will then vary on what additional recreational activities to add.
But not one has a single full time soccer coach.
Maybe its one of the reasons we suck at football, our players don't get full time coaching unitl they join the academies until the age of 16 which is too late to learn certain things by then. (But there are reforms now, topic for another thread)
I don't think the white minority can complain when they don't want their kids to play football at school level. If anything we would be better if they started employing football coaches.
 
India should do the same with every ethnicity.

Same with Pakistan. Need more Baloch representation as well as Sindhi representation

Atleast we are past the days where the whole team and back up was made of Lahore and Karachi

So nice to see so much representation from KPK these days and even Punjab outside of Lahore
 
That's a myth, most players turn into football due to cricket being too expensive. Forget the equipment, but most of the training/grounds are in the suburbs. To travel back and fourth is expensive for the African community.

thats true football is very popular due to how affordable it is
 
India should do the same with every ethnicity.

Same with Pakistan. Need more Baloch representation as well as Sindhi representation

Atleast we are past the days where the whole team and back up was made of Lahore and Karachi

So nice to see so much representation from KPK these days and even Punjab outside of Lahore


Selection should purely be based on talent and skills. Quota system would mean more deserving players will not get chance just because you need to have X number of Y type of players.

Also, if you go down the "quota" path where should it end? Quota for people from a province/city/town/village/street/clan etc etc...

I am not sold on this. We need to solve the problem of ensuring fairness and getting the most deserving/talented/skilled people to represent your country/province/city team. Don't care if this means all of them are all blacks/coloured/white/pink/blue/whatever...
 
Cricket South Africa also has another initiative which is called along the lines of a"Rural Development" plan.
The 1st thing that comes to mind to cynics and nay-sayers is "oh another quota system".
Well its not only black players from the rural parts of the country who fall under this category.
Three of this countries best were from the rural areas, L. Klusner, M. Ntini and Dale Steyn.
We can't just rely on the model C schools to provide the talent for us.
As we can see our talent has come from vast parts of the country instead of just the big cities like Cape Town, Jo'burg and Durban.

wow great initiative by south africa must be applauded
 
These quotas have to be implemented simple as that.
The minority which is the white kids have an unfair advantage.
1) Have parents who can drive them to these facilities easily.
2) Mingle with coaches at an early age and form a bond and later on get an easy contract.
They have an easy accesses to these facilities and CSA once to level the playing field.

Remember J. Kallis has a scholarship foundation were he offered kids from underprivileged communities access to the world class education to these schools they would ordinarily not afford. These schools have full time coaches which explains why an 18 year old white teen might look the real deal than say an 18 year african kid.

No one is saying let's ignore our best talents but le us not kid ourselves there are plenty of mediocre white players in our franchise cricket too. All because they knew these coaches at an early age and a rich dead who puts pressure on these coaches to select his kid coz he has invested a lot in him and drove him to junior cricket all his life.

If a great player like Kallis acknowledges there are problems and disparities within the system, then there are.

Interesting post. It's not easy for those of our who don't live in SA to know the real situation.

What you are suggesting is there needs to be social and infrastructural change and until those happen quotas need to be enforced so as not to maintain the status quo? But how long will this infrastructural change happen? It mirrors SA society in a way, it will be generational.
 
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Selection should purely be based on talent and skills. Quota system would mean more deserving players will not get chance just because you need to have X number of Y type of players.

Also, if you go down the "quota" path where should it end? Quota for people from a province/city/town/village/street/clan etc etc...

I am not sold on this. We need to solve the problem of ensuring fairness and getting the most deserving/talented/skilled people to represent your country/province/city team. Don't care if this means all of them are all blacks/coloured/white/pink/blue/whatever...


some things are more important than putting the best 11 forward all the time every game. Sport is a great tool for national unity

imagine the national unity it will promote if theres representation in balochistan and to a lesser extent Sindh. We never had an East Pakistani player before 1971 and they apparently always felt slighted by that cuz they were cricket mad by all accounts

its going to be a struggle in the first few years but eventually they wil lcatch up in quality to the rest. SA colored players are an example
 
there was this baloch cricketer I met a few years ago. Aftab baloch I think his name is. I met him by chance through a football thing in lyari a few years ago. (he is from there and in lyari soccer is big).

apparemtly he piled runs upon runs and got wickets in domestic cricket and even did well in the few matches he played but was not considered. he felt that it was because he was from Karachi but more importantly he was baloch. I thought he is one of those guys who whines abt being discriminated but atleast his cricinfo stats suggest that he was treated badly. he said that if he was Urdu speaking or Punjabi at the very least the Karachi or Lahore lobbies would have taken up his case.
 
Quota system means giving opportunity to those that would not be selected on merit alone.

SA should open cricketing facilities in Minority areas if that is the issue, but selection to the team should be based purely on merit. :farhat
 
sad, He was a talented test opener must have lost hope of representing pak

Seen him play.

He's a very basic batsman. No footwork but plays with a straight bat etc.

I don't think he would have been too succesfull if I'm honest with you my bro. I reckon a 30-34 average at best.
 
Seen him play.

He's a very basic batsman. No footwork but plays with a straight bat etc.

I don't think he would have been too succesfull if I'm honest with you my bro. I reckon a 30-34 average at best.

thats true at one point I remember ppers were crying for his inclusion he had a few good tournaments
 
Except for purpose of extracting political mileage nothing good will come as a result of instituting a quota system. Talent will just leave the country bringing the overall quality down affecting everyone in the end.

The unintended consequences are much worse than any good a quota system would bring about.
 
there was this baloch cricketer I met a few years ago. Aftab baloch I think his name is. I met him by chance through a football thing in lyari a few years ago. (he is from there and in lyari soccer is big).

apparemtly he piled runs upon runs and got wickets in domestic cricket and even did well in the few matches he played but was not considered. he felt that it was because he was from Karachi but more importantly he was baloch. I thought he is one of those guys who whines abt being discriminated but atleast his cricinfo stats suggest that he was treated badly. he said that if he was Urdu speaking or Punjabi at the very least the Karachi or Lahore lobbies would have taken up his case.

Interesting anecdote. Looked him up snd he did indeed pile the runs, albeit a FC average of 41.68 which is very good, but not extraordinary in FC cricket

http://www.espncricinfo.com/pakistan/content/player/38978.html
 
I'm sick and tired of this quota system, I can never support this.
 
Any system where the likes of Kevin Pietersen can't get into provincial teams is broken.
 
Remember quotas is not just black players.
Guys like Amla (Indian), JP (coloured), Tahir (Asian), Phangiso (African) are example of a successful quota system. Even though they are playing on merit

Kevin Pietersen too :yk
 
Wrong. Quota system went a long way towards getting rights to minorities in most countries. Now just because some minorities are getting equal right, the majority has been crying and whining. Some things are more important than a game.

How exactly do you mean representation should be on merit? Does the poor dalit whose father cannot afford his son's meals, his school fees, his coaching fees compare the same with the son from a good family who had 10 tutors right from childhood? What is a system is rotten from inside? If CSA feels that blacks are discriminated at lower, domestic levels and they need this quota for black players to come through?

Quota is always wrong is used by people who never had the need for one.

Then make provisions to bridge the gap in opportunities. Provide free food, free education, free coaching etc to those who can't afford so that they are on an equal footing. When it comes to job or spot in the national team, selection should be based on merit only. India will not win a single match if you introduce a quota system that selects one player from each state. If a particular state has five players who are the best in the country, then you need to select all the five.

Quota system only reintroduces discrimination in a subtle and emotionally appealing form. Because a meritorious person is penalized just because he is not one of the minorities.
 
Found this interesting article on this subject.. Seems like there still seems to be cultural divide when it comes to sports..

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jan/21/southafrica-sport-divided-race

"The other day, less than an hour after South Africa had trounced New Zealand in the second cricket Test in Port Elizabeth, I was sitting in the dentist's waiting room, listening to two other patients having a conversation.

After discussing how well the cricket team was doing – being number one in the world and all that – the one guy remarked: "Now we must only get our rugby guys also to start playing like world champions." I thought to myself: "What about Bafana Bafana? We are on the verge of hosting the African Cup of Nations, yet this guy does not even mention Bafana Bafana?"

The discussion was between two white men and I realised then that, while sport has a reputation as a great unifier of our nation, is can also be a great divider.

In South Africa, on the face of it, most white South Africans support rugby and cricket but not many support local soccer. Their allegiance to football often ends in the United Kingdom. It appears that the euphoria that came our way with the 2010 World Cup, when young white men could be seen wearing Bafana Bafana jerseys, has long been forgotten.

Most black South Africans, it appears, support local soccer even though they might not necessarily support Bafana Bafana, but this probably has to do with the losing culture that has gripped the national soccer team over the past few years. Bafana's latest performance on Saturday night, when they failed to beat an ordinary Cape Verde team, will not help to endear them to many South Africans.

However, it is an amazing experience to watch Kaizer Chiefs and Orlando Pirates battle it out at Soccer City in front of close to 100,000 fans. In fact, it is amazing to watch Chiefs or Pirates play any other team anywhere in the country, because of their huge support base.

Black, and mainly African, support for rugby and cricket is not substantial, partly because the national and provincial rugby and cricket teams have not yet grasped the concept that, to attract a new demographic of supporters, you need to include people from that demographic in your teams.

Even a top British soccer team like Manchester United realises that, in order to develop a fan base in the East, it needs to include players from eastern countries in their squads.

This is one of the reasons why the treatment handed out to Lions wicket-keeper Thami Tsolekile rankles with cricket fans. Tsolekile was called up to the national cricket Test squad, promised he would play at some point last year, only to sit on the bench for months on end. This prompted critics to note that the last time an African black had played for the Proteas was more than two years ago.

Cricket's administrators have also not endeared themselves to soccer lovers by hosting the first of the one-day internationals against New Zealand on the same day as Bafana Bafana played their first Afcon game.

I have noticed, when attending rugby or cricket matches recently, like the one-day international against New Zealand at Boland Park on Saturday, that more "coloured" people are now attending these games but the number of African blacks can still be counted on one or two hands. We had to rush from the cricket stadium in order to watch the second half of the Bafana Bafana game on television.

The retort from those people who do not support soccer is normally: "Why must the rugby and cricket teams be representative when the soccer teams are not; there are only/mainly black players in the soccer teams?"

The reality is that the vast majority of South Africans are black and for any sport to become more representative of the population, the majority of players will inevitably be black. In South Africa, because of our divided past, it is probably a greater sin to field an all-white national or provincial team than it is to field an all-black national or provincial team.

I am not advocating that only black people should play sport in South Africa or that all national and provincial teams in all sport should be made up of mainly black players. What I am arguing is that we need to reach a situation where all South Africans will feel comfortable supporting all national and provincial teams, irrespective of the sport they represent.

In some ways, we seem to have gone backwards in our support for various sports since our country became a democracy and the various sporting codes "unified". In the Apartheid days, I remember attending rugby and cricket games under the supervision of the non-racial sports unions in the Western and Eastern Cape townships attended by hundreds, and sometimes thousands of people. One has to ask what happened to those supporters and why they appear to no longer support these sports.

Part of the reason could lie in the fact that "unification" of rugby and cricket in many areas meant co-option. The traditionally stronger and richer former white unions basically gobbled up the smaller and less wealthy black unions. It could also be an economic thing: cricket and rugby tickets traditionally cost a lot more than soccer tickets.

I remember being invited to the presidential suites at both Newlands rugby and cricket grounds shortly after we became a democracy and how uncomfortable I felt being surrounded by pictures of all-white teams. Even though there was unity, it seemed that the history of black rugby and cricket was not appreciated or acknowledged. This has changed recently at Newlands cricket ground, probably mainly because of the hard work done by its CEO, Professor Andre Odendaal, who has always focused his historian skills on exploring black history, in politics and sport.

How do we change this situation? How do we, on an ongoing basis, have demographically representative audiences for all sport? We are not going to bring back the 2010 days by declaring "Soccer Fridays" and urging people to wear the national soccer team's jerseys. And we cannot regularly host major sports tournaments in an attempt to create some social cohesion and patriotism. We have already seen the reports about some municipalities struggling to pay for their Afcon participation. If reports are to be believed, then some have been forced to seriously cut service delivery in order to host Afcon games in their stadiums.

We have seen the impact of South Africa winning the Rugby World Cup and the African Cup of Nations on home soil, and also hosting the 2010 World Cup. But those opportunities do not come along every day and they are way too expensive. Making our various codes more acceptable to all South Africans needs to start at primary school level. Whatever culture is developed at this early stage will hopefully permeate through to our national and provincial teams.

Hopefully we will soon reach a stage where all of us will feel passionate about all our national teams, and not only about soccer, rugby and cricket."
 
Kevin Pietersen too :yk

KP was a nothing player in SA conditions hence he never made it at 1st class level here.
And he is an example of what I mean, a kid from a middle class family with his dad putting pressure on coaches to select his kid even though he was not good enough at the time. He kept on making phone calls to the board of directors on why his son was not playing enough even though he was not playing well enough when selected. To go over your coach's head is arrogant really.
Truth is we don't even miss KP, never did.
 
KP was a nothing player in SA conditions hence he never made it at 1st class level here.
And he is an example of what I mean, a kid from a middle class family with his dad putting pressure on coaches to select his kid even though he was not good enough at the time. He kept on making phone calls to the board of directors on why his son was not playing enough even though he was not playing well enough when selected. To go over your coach's head is arrogant really.
Truth is we don't even miss KP, never did.

He is better bat than anything SA has produced in last two decades (apart from Kallis and ABD).. But agreed about attitude issue.
 
Found this interesting article on this subject.. Seems like there still seems to be cultural divide when it comes to sports..

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jan/21/southafrica-sport-divided-race

"The other day, less than an hour after South Africa had trounced New Zealand in the second cricket Test in Port Elizabeth, I was sitting in the dentist's waiting room, listening to two other patients having a conversation.

After discussing how well the cricket team was doing – being number one in the world and all that – the one guy remarked: "Now we must only get our rugby guys also to start playing like world champions." I thought to myself: "What about Bafana? We are on the verge of hosting the African Cup of Nations, yet this guy does not even mention Bafana Bafana?"

The discussion was between two white men and I realised then that, while sport has a reputation as a great unifier of our nation, is can also be a great divider.

In South Africa, on the face of it, most white South Africans support rugby and cricket but not many support local soccer. Their allegiance to football often ends in the United Kingdom. It appears that the euphoria that came our way with the 2010 World Cup, when young white men could be seen wearing Bafana Bafana jerseys, has long been forgotten.

Most black South Africans, it appears, support local soccer even though they might not necessarily support Bafana Bafana, but this probably has to do with the losing culture that has gripped the national soccer team over the past few years. Bafana's latest performance on Saturday night, when they failed to beat an ordinary Cape Verde team, will not help to endear them to many South Africans.

However, it is an amazing experience to watch Kaizer Chiefs and Orlando Pirates battle it out at Soccer City in front of close to 100,000 fans. In fact, it is amazing to watch Chiefs or Pirates play any other team anywhere in the country, because of their huge support base.

Black, and mainly African, support for rugby and cricket is not substantial, partly because the national and provincial rugby and cricket teams have not yet grasped the concept that, to attract a new demographic of supporters, you need to include people from that demographic in your teams.

Even a top British soccer team like Manchester United realises that, in order to develop a fan base in the East, it needs to include players from eastern countries in their squads.

This is one of the reasons why the treatment handed out to Lions wicket-keeper Thami Tsolekile rankles with cricket fans. Tsolekile was called up to the national cricket Test squad, promised he would play at some point last year, only to sit on the bench for months on end. This prompted critics to note that the last time an African black had played for the Proteas was more than two years ago.

Cricket's administrators have also not endeared themselves to soccer lovers by hosting the first of the one-day internationals against New Zealand on the same day as Bafana Bafana played their first Afcon game.

I have noticed, when attending rugby or cricket matches recently, like the one-day international against New Zealand at Boland Park on Saturday, that more "coloured" people are now attending these games but the number of African blacks can still be counted on one or two hands. We had to rush from the cricket stadium in order to watch the second half of the Bafana Bafana game on television.

The retort from those people who do not support soccer is normally: "Why must the rugby and cricket teams be representative when the soccer teams are not; there are only/mainly black players in the soccer teams?"

The reality is that the vast majority of South Africans are black and for any sport to become more representative of the population, the majority of players will inevitably be black. In South Africa, because of our divided past, it is probably a greater sin to field an all-white national or provincial team than it is to field an all-black national or provincial team.

I am not advocating that only black people should play sport in South Africa or that all national and provincial teams in all sport should be made up of mainly black players. What I am arguing is that we need to reach a situation where all South Africans will feel comfortable supporting all national and provincial teams, irrespective of the sport they represent.

In some ways, we seem to have gone backwards in our support for various sports since our country became a democracy and the various sporting codes "unified". In the Apartheid days, I remember attending rugby and cricket games under the supervision of the non-racial sports unions in the Western and Eastern Cape townships attended by hundreds, and sometimes thousands of people. One has to ask what happened to those supporters and why they appear to no longer support these sports.

Part of the reason could lie in the fact that "unification" of rugby and cricket in many areas meant co-option. The traditionally stronger and richer former white unions basically gobbled up the smaller and less wealthy black unions. It could also be an economic thing: cricket and rugby tickets traditionally cost a lot more than soccer tickets.

I remember being invited to the presidential suites at both Newlands rugby and cricket grounds shortly after we became a democracy and how uncomfortable I felt being surrounded by pictures of all-white teams. Even though there was unity, it seemed that the history of black rugby and cricket was not appreciated or acknowledged. This has changed recently at Newlands cricket ground, probably mainly because of the hard work done by its CEO, Professor Andre Odendaal, who has always focused his historian skills on exploring black history, in politics and sport.

How do we change this situation? How do we, on an ongoing basis, have demographically representative audiences for all sport? We are not going to bring back the 2010 days by declaring "Soccer Fridays" and urging people to wear the national soccer team's jerseys. And we cannot regularly host major sports tournaments in an attempt to create some social cohesion and patriotism. We have already seen the reports about some municipalities struggling to pay for their Afcon participation. If reports are to be believed, then some have been forced to seriously cut service delivery in order to host Afcon games in their stadiums.

We have seen the impact of South Africa winning the Rugby World Cup and the African Cup of Nations on home soil, and also hosting the 2010 World Cup. But those opportunities do not come along every day and they are way too expensive. Making our various codes more acceptable to all South Africans needs to start at primary school level. Whatever culture is developed at this early stage will hopefully permeate through to our national and provincial teams.

Hopefully we will soon reach a stage where all of us will feel passionate about all our national teams, and not only about soccer, rugby and cricket."

A good read, I must add in certain private schools, especially in remote areas (small towns) white parents don't want their kids to play rugby with black kids. As a result we see an all black team, ironicaly its one of the best rugby schools in the whole of the Eastern Cape/Province. I think they were rated in the top 5. As you can see a sport historically dominated by whites and you have the Africans doing just as well as whites given the same platform. However they represent the minority when it comes to afford such education.
There was a documentary about this a while back.
There is a racial divide in the country especially from parents who are from the generation of 50's and early 60's.
 
He is better bat than anything SA has produced in last two decades (apart from Kallis and ABD).. But agreed about attitude issue.

We've had Amla and Smith who are comfortably better all round players than KP. I could add Kirsten as well there, averaged 50+ away from home IIRC.
Whilst KP was a good player he was surplus to requirements
 
Then make provisions to bridge the gap in opportunities. Provide free food, free education, free coaching etc to those who can't afford so that they are on an equal footing. When it comes to job or spot in the national team, selection should be based on merit only. India will not win a single match if you introduce a quota system that selects one player from each state. If a particular state has five players who are the best in the country, then you need to select all the five.

Quota system only reintroduces discrimination in a subtle and emotionally appealing form. Because a meritorious person is penalized just because he is not one of the minorities.

Discrimination is already there though.
Black kids don't get gigs because of skin colour.
Its easy for a white to come through the rans and get a contract.
There is a documentary on racial discrimination in rugby, cricket is not far off.
 
Selection should purely be based on talent and skills. Quota system would mean more deserving players will not get chance just because you need to have X number of Y type of players.

Also, if you go down the "quota" path where should it end? Quota for people from a province/city/town/village/street/clan etc etc...

I am not sold on this. We need to solve the problem of ensuring fairness and getting the most deserving/talented/skilled people to represent your country/province/city team. Don't care if this means all of them are all blacks/coloured/white/pink/blue/whatever...

In an ideal world everyone would get selected on merit.
But its not the case in SA anyway, there are plenty of mediocre white contracted players who had an easy route all their lives.
Why should he be paid when mom and dad can afford to pay his tuition fees at Varsity and support him at that. While the poor African should free lance provancially while he has the added pressure of feeding his family?
 
Discrimination is already there though.
Black kids don't get gigs because of skin colour.
Its easy for a white to come through the rans and get a contract.
There is a documentary on racial discrimination in rugby, cricket is not far off.

Then block those contracts.

See, I always agree to equal opportunities to every body. Where some one does not get the opportunity, they should be provided with the opportunity. Quota system may provide some quick fixes to some evils, in the long run it will create more problems. When seats are allocated to you by default, why will you want to work hard to get those seats? In the long run, a lot of lazy and unmerited folks will take over the country.
 
Interesting post. It's not easy for those of our who don't live in SA to know the real situation.

What you are suggesting is there needs to be social and infrastructural change and until those happen quotas need to be enforced so as not to maintain the status quo? But how long will this infrastructural change happen? It mirrors SA society in a way, it will be generational.

Well South Africa is twice the size of England and infrastructural changes will take a while if economically viable at that.
CSA can't build these facilities on their own (Rural Development Plan). They have asked for the government and private sector/sponsors to help out build these facilities. The irony is no one is stepping forward, most of the private corporations are white owned anyhow and won't put their hand forward (even though they'll gladly fund and sponsor private schools) but will complain when these quotas are implemented.

Makhaya Ntini built an academy for the underprivileged in his home town. But never found anyone to help him out financially to run the academy. As a result the academy never got going which is sad to see. One would have thought someone like Makhaya who was very popular not just among the African population but the white minority as well would have got a helping hand.
 
Well South Africa is twice the size of England and infrastructural changes will take a while if economically viable at that.
CSA can't build these facilities on their own (Rural Development Plan). They have asked for the government and private sector/sponsors to help out build these facilities. The irony is no one is stepping forward, most of the private corporations are white owned anyhow and won't put their hand forward (even though they'll gladly fund and sponsor private schools) but will complain when these quotas are implemented.

Makhaya Ntini built an academy for the underprivileged in his home town. But never found anyone to help him out financially to run the academy. As a result the academy never got going which is sad to see. One would have thought someone like Makhaya who was very popular not just among the African population but the white minority as well would have got a helping hand.

So you're basically saying that people who want to set up facilities for the black communities are receiving no financial support?

But isnt SA governed by the ANC, a majority black party?? In that case doesnt it seem to you that the government dont really care about the issue, but will introduce quotas and make public statements as A) they're free and B) To gain support from the underrepresented blacks by claiming they are being victimised? If they really cared wouldnt they have set up facilities already?

For the record I'm in agreement with [MENTION=50394]IndianWillow[/MENTION] on this, I dont think its fair to deny white guys a shot because of past events, and soso_killers comment above leads me to believe the government doesnt really care either but just wants a quick cheap option
 
Then block those contracts.

See, I always agree to equal opportunities to every body. Where some one does not get the opportunity, they should be provided with the opportunity. Quota system may provide some quick fixes to some evils, in the long run it will create more problems. When seats are allocated to you by default, why will you want to work hard to get those seats? In the long run, a lot of lazy and unmerited folks will take over the country.

And how do we block those contracts? A club/franchise must have an X amount of contracted players.
The quota is implemented to ease some of the financial burden from the talented blokes from poor communities. Players will be rotated among the squad of contracted players, if one is good enough to play they'll play simple as that.
 
So you're basically saying that people who want to set up facilities for the black communities are receiving no financial support?

But isn't SA governed by the ANC, a majority black party?? In that case doesnt it seem to you that the government dont really care about the issue, but will introduce quotas and make public statements as A) they're free and B) To gain support from the underrepresented blacks by claiming they are being victimised? If they really cared wouldnt they have set up facilities already?

For the record I'm in agreement with [MENTION=50394]IndianWillow[/MENTION] on this, I dont think its fair to deny white guys a shot because of past events, and soso_killers comment above leads me to believe the government doesnt really care either but just wants a quick cheap option

The government is doing its bit. Unfortunately not enough. They are under pressure as it is as other athletes who don't play cricket, rugby or cricket feel they can't make a living as in other countries.
The funds are limited remember, SA is not a 1st world country its easy to forget that due to our rich heritage and culture.
 
These quotas have to be implemented simple as that.
The minority which is the white kids have an unfair advantage.
1) Have parents who can drive them to these facilities easily.
2) Mingle with coaches at an early age and form a bond and later on get an easy contract.
They have an easy accesses to these facilities and CSA once to level the playing field.

Remember J. Kallis has a scholarship foundation were he offered kids from underprivileged communities access to the world class education to these schools they would ordinarily not afford. These schools have full time coaches which explains why an 18 year old white teen might look the real deal than say an 18 year african kid.

No one is saying let's ignore our best talents but le us not kid ourselves there are plenty of mediocre white players in our franchise cricket too. All because they knew these coaches at an early age and a rich dead who puts pressure on these coaches to select his kid coz he has invested a lot in him and drove him to junior cricket all his life.

If a great player like Kallis acknowledges there are problems and disparities within the system, then there are.

I agree with certain points of yours. You are correct in saying that the coloured people don't have equal opportunities in comparison to the white people of SA, but that is exactly what CSA needs to work on! Give free cricket training to those who cannot afford it. Help them! Support them! That is the only way you will create equal opportunities for everyone in the country.

Equal opportunities =/= Equal representation

Give everyone the same platform and then pick them based on merit and not on skin colour!
 
I agree with certain points of yours. You are correct in saying that the coloured people don't have equal opportunities in comparison to the white people of SA, but that is exactly what CSA needs to work on! Give free cricket training to those who cannot afford it. Help them! Support them! That is the only way you will create equal opportunities for everyone in the country.

Equal opportunities =/= Equal representation

Give everyone the same platform and then pick them based on merit and not on skin colour!

South Africa has a population of 60 million.
South Africa was divided into 3 parts the Whites, Coloured and the African/Blacks. Indians came in and settled in Durban.
Problem is every race group is scattered across in large to small communities. And then there is the issue of rural areas.
Where do you even begin to build these facilities and were? Private land is occupied by informal settlement.
You can't destroy someone's shack to build a cricket field that would cause an uproar.
There are (poor) communities in the country with no running water, electricity or both.
Problems are vast really.
 
This is pretty sad tbh.

Yes, there should be no discrimination in Cricket but that doesn't mean you go out of your way to have so and so players of color, why can't it just be that the better talent gets selected?

So by this they're pretty much implying that if there were two players who were white and black with the former being more talented, the black would still be selected over the white because the quota of color needs to be fulfilled, what would happen if CSA were to make that decision?
 
South Africa has a population of 60 million.
South Africa was divided into 3 parts the Whites, Coloured and the African/Blacks. Indians came in and settled in Durban.
Problem is every race group is scattered across in large to small communities. And then there is the issue of rural areas.
Where do you even begin to build these facilities and were? Private land is occupied by informal settlement.
You can't destroy someone's shack to build a cricket field that would cause an uproar.
There are (poor) communities in the country with no running water, electricity or both.
Problems are vast really.

The way you describe it, it seems to me poverty is the reason the blacks are unable to get equal opportunity and representation. So the problem seems to be related to poverty rather than racism itself. If so, South Africa is not the only country with this problem. This problem exists throughout the world. In every part of the world, those who are not economically sound struggle to get equal opportunities. For example, children of rich/upper middle class parents inevitably get better opportunities compared to the children of the poor. In all these cases, the solution is to provide the poor with better facilities so that they are not disadvantaged against the richer classes.
 
So I guess quota system allows 6 black players to be in playing 11?

In match against Pakistan SA had following white players:

1. QDK
2. Faf
3. ABD
4. Miller
5. Morris
6. Morkel

What am I missing here? How did they play an extra white player in the starting 11?
[MENTION=134334]Ozymandiasza[/MENTION]
 
So I guess quota system allows 6 black players to be in playing 11?

In match against Pakistan SA had following white players:

1. QDK
2. Faf
3. ABD
4. Miller
5. Morris
6. Morkel

What am I missing here? How did they play an extra white player in the starting 11?
[MENTION=134334]Ozymandiasza[/MENTION]

Not sure on the exact number but they said during the Eng v SA series that the quota system is based on the average black players in the XI.
 
Not sure on the exact number but they said during the Eng v SA series that the quota system is based on the average black players in the XI.



I don't understand mate what you meant by average black players in 11? Can you kindly elaborate a bit more?
 
So I guess quota system allows 6 black players to be in playing 11?

In match against Pakistan SA had following white players:

1. QDK
2. Faf
3. ABD
4. Miller
5. Morris
6. Morkel

What am I missing here? How did they play an extra white player in the starting 11?
[MENTION=134334]Ozymandiasza[/MENTION]

Parnell is white as well no?
 
I don't understand mate what you meant by average black players in 11? Can you kindly elaborate a bit more?

Over a period of time (say an year), the average no of players of colour played in South African teams should be 6 (and average of black players to be minimum 2).

So if in one game you played 6 white ones and 5 colour ones, you will have to play 7 colour ones in another to bring the average of colour players to 6.

This average thing allows a bit of flexibility, as games against teams like Ireland and Zimbabwe normally have more players of colour from what I have noticed and more important ones (tests or ICC tournaments), white players are played without worrying about the quota thing
 
Parnell is white as well no?

He's "coloured" (mixed race)(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coloureds) as far as I know.

So I guess quota system allows 6 black players to be in playing 11?

In match against Pakistan SA had following white players:

1. QDK
2. Faf
3. ABD
4. Miller
5. Morris
6. Morkel

What am I missing here? How did they play an extra white player in the starting 11?
[MENTION=134334]Ozymandiasza[/MENTION]

I honestly don't understand it fully, but I know it's flexible to some extent.
 
Quota requirements change all the time. Currently the requirements are as below

Six players of colour are required in our domestic leagues and 4 players of colour in our national team

Imran Tahier was not born in South Africa and is not regarded as a 'quota' player

So against Pakistan we had the following non quota players


1. QDK
2. Faf
3. ABD
4. Miller
5. Morris
6. Morkel
7. Tahier

Quota players

1. Amla
2. Duminy
3. Rabada
4. Parnell

12th man can be any colour
 
Over a period of time (say an year), the average no of players of colour played in South African teams should be 6 (and average of black players to be minimum 2).

So if in one game you played 6 white ones and 5 colour ones, you will have to play 7 colour ones in another to bring the average of colour players to 6.

This average thing allows a bit of flexibility, as games against teams like Ireland and Zimbabwe normally have more players of colour from what I have noticed and more important ones (tests or ICC tournaments), white players are played without worrying about the quota thing

Its average over a season.

He's "coloured" (mixed race)(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coloureds) as far as I know.



I honestly don't understand it fully, but I know it's flexible to some extent.

Parnell is white as well no?


Cool thanks for the replies that explains things, CSA needs to organise 2-3 series every year against weaker teams to play their best players in big matches to average it out..

Not sure about Parnell mate loooks White to me too but I guess he's mix..
 
Not sure about Parnell mate loooks White to me too but I guess he's mix..


In South Africa many coloureds look like white and many whites look like coloureds

21f877efd3bb4336bf03141f2b26b69f.jpg


Rodney Ontong is classified white but he looks like coloured whereas Gibbs and Parnell are classified coloured but look like whites
 
I can't claim to know much about the conditions on ground in the country but in imo a quota system is generally not a good way to promote parity. It's always better to support the minorities at grass roots level by providing them better facilities rather than imposing quotas.
 
I can't claim to know much about the conditions on ground in the country but in imo a quota system is generally not a good way to promote parity. It's always better to support the minorities at grass roots level by providing them better facilities rather than imposing quotas.

In South Africa whites are the minority :P Only country in the world where majority needs "protection" from a minority.

I get your point though and completely agree. From what I understand the ANC and some people on the ground feel black and/or coloured players aren't getting selected because of race. I honestly think they're wrong and it looks likely that the ANC will take a brutal beating in the coming elections. So, with some luck we'll hopefully see a return to sanity soon.
 
In South Africa whites are the minority :P Only country in the world where majority needs "protection" from a minority.

I get your point though and completely agree. From what I understand the ANC and some people on the ground feel black and/or coloured players aren't getting selected because of race. I honestly think they're wrong and it looks likely that the ANC will take a brutal beating in the coming elections. So, with some luck we'll hopefully see a return to sanity soon.

Oh yeah error on my part. its generally minorities and other underprivileged sections of the population for whom quotas are used so just wrote that without remembering that in case it's a majority.

Thing is it just promotes ineffeciency and mediocrity. Ideally sports are supposed to be the most meritocratic field in the world where the only thing that matters is your skill and talent. Yes there will always be cases where players will get chances due to nepotism and corruption but in the long run they are weeded out based on performance. A quota system however makes it almost impossible to weed out underperformers. In the long run it breeds mediocrity and imo has the exact opposite effect of what it intends to achieve as complacency sets in amongst the beneficiaries of the quota system. It's always better to promote equality by providing equal opportunities at the grass roots level and then selecting the best. We have seen that colored players are no less than their white counterparts (ntini, rabada, duminy) and with better opportunities the majority will gradually take over from the privileged minority in the long run. But on a pragmatic note I can also see why that will never happen due to political reasons. Always easier to adopt populist measures like quotas that don't require any investment instead of making systemic improvements which take time and resources to produce results.
 
Quotas are there to compensate the discrimination faced by black/coloured population for decades during apartheid. More coloured players in teams means more of them get an opportunity to develop and make a name for themselves and their team, partially countering the marginalisation faced by the people of colour in terms of discrimination for years before 1992.

Its actually fair that some privilege is given to the people of colour given the horrific discrimination which was imparted towards them for decades before Mandela-led revolution happened.

I like what is going on in South Africa. They may not present the best possible team for non-ICC tournaments (since I assume quota's flexibility in terms of averaging out allows them to play best x1 in ICC tours), but the colour, especially the black, population gets some extra privilege, in a way erasing some of the grievances they had to face over discrimination from white supremists for such a long time.

It is easier to judge from outside, but the quota thing is something totally justified imo. Today's world or yesterday's world, we are speaking about a populance which has literally been discriminated in all social avenues for a long run and to provide a slight privilege in sporting teams is one of the ways to pay them off. Those guys also have feelings, they have emotions, and in trying to make a marginalised majority in a country happy, a little sacrifice in sporting achievements here and there is no big deal.
 
South Africa is one of the greatest stories of the modern world, and to see people of colour, particularly black ones like Rabada, doing well on international circuit gives a great joy.

So its not the worst thing on earth, [MENTION=134334]Ozymandiasza[/MENTION] [MENTION=142991]TahirFan[/MENTION]
 
Worst thing possible for SA cricket. Whatever happened to meritocracy in sports?

At the most you can make way for such quotas in domestic cricket teams.. not International teams.
 
Quota isn't a bad thing for FC level - teams should be forced/compensated for more native players, so that the gap is bridged. However, National team should be selected on proper merit - if non white players are given more opportunities, in few years time quota won't be required.
 
In South Africa many coloureds look like white and many whites look like coloureds

21f877efd3bb4336bf03141f2b26b69f.jpg


Rodney Ontong is classified white but he looks like coloured whereas Gibbs and Parnell are classified coloured but look like whites



Wow that's weird Parnell looks more white than him and he's considered non white.. Gibbs wasn't as white as Parnell could understand why he was considered non white
 
Quota is a short term political point scoring solution in any field.. If you really care about the lesser privileged then work on improving their social status from the grass root levels..
 
South Africa is one of the greatest stories of the modern world, and to see people of colour, particularly black ones like Rabada, doing well on international circuit gives a great joy.

So its not the worst thing on earth, [MENTION=134334]Ozymandiasza[/MENTION] [MENTION=142991]TahirFan[/MENTION]

Yes, it's always good to see Dr Rabada's son overcome the challenges of being a son of the elite. With a brain surgeon as his dad and a lawyer as his mother.

Just as Temba Bavuma went to St David's Marist school with the new elite.

I regret enormously the horrors of Apartheid. But current quotas just favour the non-white elite over ordinary non-white kids.
 
Yes, it's always good to see Dr Rabada's son overcome the challenges of being a son of the elite. With a brain surgeon as his dad and a lawyer as his mother.

Just as Temba Bavuma went to St David's Marist school with the new elite.

I regret enormously the horrors of Apartheid. But current quotas just favour the non-white elite over ordinary non-white kids.

Apartheid period had a quota of zero non-white players. At least we see some representation from the black (and non-white) community. A positive already, and a message to the discriminated community that you are an integral part of the system, which for me matters more than any lower achievements in sports as a result of quota.

A sample of two players is not at all representative. However, if we do assume it is representative and the current quota actually favours the non-white elite, it would be a problem in implementation of the quota than the quota itself.
 
Yes, it's always good to see Dr Rabada's son overcome the challenges of being a son of the elite. With a brain surgeon as his dad and a lawyer as his mother.

Just as Temba Bavuma went to St David's Marist school with the new elite.

I regret enormously the horrors of Apartheid. But current quotas just favour the non-white elite over ordinary non-white kids.

Most non whites Protea players come very humble background and not the elite


IMG_4283-1024x683.jpg


Ntini grew up as a herdsman

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mpdrugs.jpg


JP Dumminy grew up in Strandfontein Mitchells Plain

----------------

500px-Street-scene-bonteheuwel.jpg


Vernon Philander grew up in Saxonville


-------------------------------



22_frank_way,_lotus_river,_grassy_park_1__original.jpg


Paul Adams in up in Grassy Park

---------------

david-bucklow-landscape-diesel-pump-pniel-305803.jpg


Henry Williams grew up in Pniel

----------------------------------

06-IMG_0204.jpg


Justin Ontong grew up in the coloured township of Paarl

-------------------------------------------------

9d730fef635043e39a5e653ea88d00f7.jpg


Aaron Mpho Phangiso comes from Garankuwa

------------------------------
 
The brutal reality is that 90% of the fans in the grounds are white and if they stop going then there will be in credible cricket in SA.
 
I personally think the ICC should intervene in order to prevent another Zimbabwe from happening. Cricket is already far from being a global sport with only a handful of countries taking it seriously and the great travesty is, even those few countries are slowly but at a quicker pace than before, denting their own cricket.

Like [MENTION=1269]Bewal Express[/MENTION] said, majority of the fans in South Africa are whites and if their community gets zero representation, cricket will die as a sport among the whites in South Africa and we will have to see the mediocrity of the black cricketers as we've seen in Zimbabwe.
 
The brutal reality is that 90% of the fans in the grounds are white and if they stop going then there will be in credible cricket in SA.

simple yet succint point

despite so much attempts to force black and colored cricketers, most SA home match crowds are predominantly white
 
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