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Curtly Ambrose - Where would he rank amongst the great fast bowlers of all time?

Harsh Thakor

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Curtly Ambrose may not have posessed the speed of Jeff Thomson or Shoaib Akhtar,the action of Michael Holding or the versatality of Wasim Akram or Denis Lillee.However at his best he could me more lethal ,particularly on broken wickets or in a 4th innings.I have not seen a pace bowler generate such steep bounce from a good length or one as relentless or accurate as Curtly.He brilliantly blended bounce with seam movement and could be unplayable at his best.If I wished to have a bowler to defend a small target in the 1st innings then Ambrose would be my 1st choice.He could rattle through a line up like making it look like nine pins rolling or a cowboy mowing down his rivals in a shootout.There could be few more menacing sights in cricket than Curtly running in reminiscent of an assault by a military tank,creating the impact of a thunderstorm..I have not seen a paceman who could create such a sensational twist or turn in game in a single spell or turn a lost cause into a winning one like Curtly,reminiscent of total reversal of plot in a Hollywood epic.In his career Ambrose did not receive the support the great Malcolm Marshal did and though aided by Walsh for long had to defend a relatively weaker test team.At his best Ambrose took competitivity and agression in sport to it's supreme depth and no paceman more resembled a steam roller.In many ways he was a connoction of the speed of Holding, guile of Andy Roberts and acuracy of Garner.No paceman blended genuine speed with accuracy as Curtly.

Curtly Ambrose’s herculean efforts thwarted opponent’s hopes of conquering the world champions on 3 occasions. In 1990 in the 3rd test at Barbados v England (who were one –up in the series), he captured 8-45,including 5 wickets in one spell to rip through the English batting on the final evening. It was menacing exhibition of pace combined with control.The English batsmen were simply forced back on the stumps.. In 1992 at Barbados chasing a target of 201 for victory South Africa were comfortably coasting home at 129-2 .Then Ambrose exploiting the conditions of a bad wicket brilliantly ripped through the South African batting line up and 8 wickets fell for a mere 27 runs. Ambrose had made the impact of an unexpected thunderstorm. In 1992-93 in the final test match of the 5 test series at Perth Ambrose unleashed arguably one of test cricket’s 2-3 best pace bowling spells ever when capturing 7 wickets for one run. The Australian batting line up literally fell apart like nine pins. Ambrose destroyed his opponents like a bomber destroying an airbase. His bowling displayed the ruthless efficiency of a programmed machine and contained every aspect of pace bowling be it pace, control, accuracy or movement. Arguably it was the best spell of pace bowling ever witnessed in Australia. Earlier Ambrose’s bowling played a major role in his team’s comeback in the 3rd test at Adelaide where they won by the margin of a mere 2 runs.In the 1992-93 Frank Worrel trophy Ambrose captured 33 wickets-a record haul by any West Indian paceman in a series in Australia.Arguably it overshadowed the efforts of Andy Roberts in 1975-76.Michael Holding in 1981-82 and Malcolm Marshall in 1984-85.In 1994 chasing a mere target of 194 runs at Trindad Ambrose bowled another awesome spell of 6-22 to bowl out England for 46 runs.It gave vibrations of all the flesh being ripped of a body.

When ranking he best pace bowler of all time the 1st names that conjure up are Malcolm Marshal,Glen Mcgrath,Wasim Akram and Dennis Lillee amongst cricket experts while in pakpassion Marshall,Mcgrath and Wasim and Imran.Arguably Ambrose is not given the recognition he deserves.In 100 best cricketers of Cristopher Martin Jenkins Ambrose is ranked 15 places behind Waqar Younus and below Kapil Dev.Skysports 11 ranks Ambrose at 80th place which is ridiculuos.

Above all Ambrose has been at his best when it mattered most.No paceman ever has blended agression and accuracy as well.Wasim Akram had more skill and was more innovative which is why batsmen like Viv Richards,Gooch, Lara,Laxman ,Kallis ,Alec Stewart or Azharuddin found him the hardest pace bowler they ever faced.However Shane Warne in his list placed Ambrose only behind Tendulkar and Lara amongts great cricketers and Mark Taylor,Ricky Ponting and Steve Waugh found Ambrose as daunting to face as Wasim.Ambrose may well morally rank as the best match-winner amongts fast bowlers but ofcourse this is very subjective.In my view no paceman surpassed the best single in -spells of Curtly,not even Marshall.At his best no paceman ever was more volatile resmbling a grass mower on a cricket field.

What may go against Curtly is that he could not take West Indian cricket to the top of the pedestal like Marshall or Holding .He also did not bowl sufficiently in the sub-continent like partner Courtney Walsh or Glen Mcgrtah or Marshall and lacked the variety of Wasim Akram.Statistically his strike rate was considerably below Marshall and Mcgrath.However as a pure cricketing machine Curtly could have been as good as anyone if not better.Glen Mcgrath or Wasim Akram or even Malcolm Marshall did not run through an innings in the manner of Curtly.In my eyes no paceman was as explosive at his best as Ambrose.Glen Mcgrath had more control and was also a more intelligent bowler but could not equal Ambrose in delivering the knockout punch.Above all Ambrose has an average of 20.99 better than nay great paceman apart from Marshall.Richie Richardson selected Ambrose in his alltime xi stating that he was the ultimate bowler to go to war with.


Really hard where Ambrose ranked amongst the great fast bowlers but without doubt he was right up there.Merging O.D.I's and test matches Mcgrath,Wasim or even Lillee would edge Curtly.In only test cricket arguably Ambrose could dead heat if not better the likes of Wasim or Mcgrath and maybe challenge Marshall.On a fast,bouncy Australian wicket Ambrose may well have been the best of them all!


STATISTICS FROM S.RAJESH AT CRICINFO

Best bowling averages in Test wins (Qual: 200 wickets) Bowler Tests Wickets Average Strike rate 5WI/ 10WM
Muttiah Muralitharan 53 430 16.03 42.6 40/ 18
Malcolm Marshall 43 254 16.78 38.1 17/ 4
Curtly Ambrose 44 229 16.86 44.4 13/ 3
Waqar Younis 39 222 18.20 35.0 14/ 4
Dennis Lillee 31 203 18.27 39.0 17/ 6
Shaun Pollock 49 223 18.30 47.5 9/ 1
Wasim Akram 41 211 18.48 42.3 13/ 2


Merging O.D.I's Mcgrath,Wasim or even Lillee would edge Curtly.In only test cricket arguably Ambrose could dead heat the likes of Wasim or Mcgrath and maybe challenge Marshall.On a fast,bouncy Australian wicket Ambrose may well have been the best of them all!



Quoting writer Chirag Naik Navare in an article on his 3greatest fast bowlers.



'Big Curtly Ambrose was the most potent fast bowler I have ever seen. He could rip out the heart of your batting line up with a range of arsenal that is unparalleled in the history of cricket. The initial impression anyone got while watching Ambrose for the first time was that this guy means bounce. On the green tops of Kingston, he would be at your chin all the time. But that was not always the case with Ambrose. See the videos of his golden years and you can see a clever bowler changing his length, controlling the amount of bounce to get the ball to swing in and out to fox the batsman. This doesn't mean that he could not get the bounce. Rest assured that when required, he could bend his back and chin music could be heard loud and clear. That unbelievable spell at WACA against Australia when he took 7 wickets for 1 run just showcases the man's talent in full glow. The yorkers, in swinging deliveries, the steep bouncing leg cutters; was all there to see. He is 6 feet 6 inches tall which naturally forced the batsman's thinking into moving on the back foot. He would cleverly see this and changed the way he delivered the ball to a slightly slower in swinging delivery not bouncing over the top of the stumps and getting the batsman trapped LBW. However, he was lucky to find a patient and a clever partner at the other end in Courtney Walsh who could keep plugging away day in day out and was a mean customer in his own right. Accurate, unplayable and just unstoppable when in the form that was Sir Curtly Ambrose! A bowler every captain dreams of and the sheer capability to run through the opposition while defending a small score was a nightmare for the opposition. It seemed as if he specialized in bowling out oppositions in low scoring affairs."

"Now about my opinion of who is the greatest fast bowler of them all? In ODIs, I think Wasim Akram is the clear numero uno with no competition. In tests, I will go with Curtly Ambrose and Dennis Lille as combined number 1. I really cannot say which one was better and who I will pick in my team. They bowled during different times and were great bowlers in all respects. One talked a great deal and the other not much, that was probably the only clear difference. But frightening bowlers all the same! Wasim Akram will be a close third in tests in my opinion."




Quoting Wisden overview by Simon Briggs

"A giant of the game in every sense, Curtly Ambrose was the most lethal pace bowler of his generation. Like his predecessor Andy Roberts, Ambrose didn't say much, refusing countless interview requests with the motto "Curtly talk to no man". Yet his silence seemed only to magnify his achievements - and his menace. Among Ambrose's 405 Test wickets at 20.99, two spells stand out: the 6 for 24 that hustled England out for 46 in Trinidad in 1993-94, and his series-clinching burst of 7 for 1 against Australia at the WACA the previous season. Perth's springboard of a pitch was ideal for a man who stood 6ft 7ins and released the ball from almost 10ft high, but there was more to Ambrose's game than bounce. When his extreme pace deserted him, he fell back on subtle seam movement and an immaculately grooved action. English batsmen saw a great deal of Ambrose's hand-jiving wicket celebration, which set his white wristbands flashing like doves taking to the sky."
 
Absolutely top-line. Like Garner with more pace.
 
In the Top 5 fast bowlers of all time:-

Malcom Marshall
Glenn Mcgrath
Dale Steyn
Ambrose
Hadlee
 
Ambrose comfortably belongs in the top ten fast bowlers of all-time. He was super accurate, relentless, used his bounce to great effect and had an extra gear of pace when it suited him. No bowler I know has bowled so many destructive spells where you singlehandedly demolish a team, something Wasim struggled with.

The reason I wouldnt put him at the very top is that he at times was robotic, lacked variation and remained committed to bowling back of a length, meaning he would prefer to stay miserly rather than risk pitching it up for more wickets. Post mid-90s he clearly lacked the edge and was rather less a threat on flat pitches. But his figures would still look nice since he didnt leak runs and rarely bowled a poor delivery. Whereas Malcolm Marshall could bowl cutters and adjust his length on dead wickets and be more of a threat.

For example, when Ambrose came to Pakistan in 1997 his bowling was completely unsuited to the pitches and he was no where near a threat, unlike in 1990 when he had a bit more pace and success.

Also, I think he lacked McGrath's cunning and ability to analyze batsmen's weaknesses. He had basically one track that he was committed to.
 
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The above is a decent summary. Ambrose was one of the premier fast bowlers of the 1990s and of all time. Relentlessly accurate. Unlike Wasim and Waqar who would give you the odd ball you could hit, Ambrose was as miserly as they came.

He could always extract a decent amount of bounce from a good length with his height, his style of bowling suited places like Australia where his record speaks for itself. He delivered one of the most memorable spells of the 90s at Perth in 1993 where he took 7-1.
 
Ambrose comfortably belongs in the top ten fast bowlers of all-time. He was super accurate, relentless, used his bounce to great effect and had an extra gear of pace when it suited him. No bowler I know has bowled so many destructive spells where you singlehandedly demolish a team, something Wasim struggled with.

The reason I wouldnt put him at the very top is that he at times was robotic, lacked variation and remained committed to bowling back of a length, meaning he would prefer to stay miserly rather than risk pitching it up for more wickets. Post mid-90s he clearly lacked the edge and was rather less a threat on flat pitches. But his figures would still look nice since he didnt leak runs and rarely bowled a poor delivery. Whereas Malcolm Marshall could bowl cutters and adjust his length on dead wickets and be more of a threat.

For example, when Ambrose came to Pakistan in 1997 his bowling was completely unsuited to the pitches and he was no where near a threat, unlike in 1990 when he had a bit more pace and success.

Also, I think he lacked McGrath's cunning and ability to analyze batsmen's weaknesses. He had basically one track that he was committed to.

How do you compare Ambrose to Imran,Wasim,Hadlee and Mcgrath?
 
For me, he's neck and neck with McGrath as the best paceman of the 1990s. He could ramp up his pace and had more destructive bouncers/yorkers than McGrath, but unlike McGrath traveled less to Asia.
 
Fair bit behind McGrath and Steyn of those I have seen
 
Hadlee and Ambrose will come behind Steyn, McGrath and Marshall.
 
For what it is worth, Warne placed Ambrose at No. 3 in his list of Top 100 cricketers that he played with. McGrath was at 5 and Akram at 6. In my opinion, Wasim was the most skilled of them (possibly in history) but the other two were more relentless in line and length.
 
Great bowler only one who can match Tanvir's magical 5/3 figures in a T20 format
 
Ambrose better than Steyn open your eyes Steyn can get a phainta but can somebody annihilate Ambrose unlikely #10 overs 0-75
 
Id say hes top class but certainly has chinks in his records

About 85% of his wkts were taken in either Eng, WI or Aus

He hardly toured the subcontinent in 12 yrs of intnl cricket and in the last few years he was hardly a strike bowler, more of someone that was miserly and containing
 
He was a great bowler.But he never did anything in the subcontinent.He is behind a lot of bowlers like Steyn Mcgrath Wasim Marshall Hadlee etc.
 
No bowler could intimidate like Ambrose, perhaps not in the history of the game. Few greater sights than watching Ambrose run up to the crease, with a quivering batsman (usually Michael Atherton) waiting to face him at the other end. Anyone stating that he'd be getting smashed around in this era is clueless. Easily in top 3 I've seen live. Arguably behind McGrath and Wasim, but no one else.
 
I will be very tempted to pick him and Wasim as an opening bowling pair in all formats.
 
He's my favourite bowler of all time. On his day he was completely unplayable. He had a great rhythm about his bowling. I would put him in the top 3 or 4 fast bowlers ever.
 
Omg this thread :)))

People rating steyn over ambrose. Wow. Just wow
 
Comparisons are pointless. He was a too bowler in his era. A champion. A legend. He could walk into any ATG XI without any questions asked.
 
Phenomenal bowler. Greatest to have come from WI after Marshall.

Marshall
McGrath
Wasim/Steyn/Ambrose/Hadlee/Imran
Donald/Waqar/Pollock/Holding/Garner

Donald can be considered in a tier above.
 
In the top ten of all time. Guys like Akram, Marshall, Holding, Waqar, Lillee, Thompson, McGrath even Garner are all above him. Ambrose was in the same class as Hadlee.
 
Still remember the shiver Ambrose, Patterson and Bishop used to bring among batsmen in the early 90s. Those were the days man! I now started following cricket.
 
Taller and better version of McGrath with better stats in Tests. Dunno how Steyn is rated higher even as we all see that Philander and Rabada have similar or better stats showing how SA is greatt for pacers
 
Taller and better version of McGrath with better stats in Tests. Dunno how Steyn is rated higher even as we all see that Philander and Rabada have similar or better stats showing how SA is greatt for pacers
Philander has done nothing in subcontinent same goes for rabada.
 
Steyn has the best career str rate of all time and he has good record in almost every country.
He is surely amongst the top 5.
He is a better test match bowler than garner, holding, wasim, waqar, ambrose. He played in an when flat pitches were more frequent.
 
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Easily the best of his generation. The best fast bowler to have come after Marshal...

I'll take Ambrose Imran, Marshal and McGrath in my all time.
 
If only West Indies had not collapsed against Australia in the 1996 semifinal, it would have been interesting to see how Sri Lankas openers would fare against Ambrose, my bet is they would have found it very hard to hit him
 
In the top ten of all time. Guys like Akram, Marshall, Holding, Waqar, Lillee, Thompson, McGrath even Garner are all above him. Ambrose was in the same class as Hadlee.

Waqar was not a better Test bowler than Ambrose. Waqar tailed off after 1994 and did jack in Australia whereas Ambrose destroyed Australia in their backyard, most notably the 7-1 spell.
 
Ambrose, Garner, McGrath and Van Der Bijl were basically identical.

I don’t know how anyone can place any one above the others.
 
He's right there with the very best. Top 7 easily one can argue about his positioning in top 7 but as per people's bias they rank their top 7 accordingly.

Every bowler in top 7 can be replaced with each other for their spots so Ambrose is one of those top 7 ever.
 
Steyn has the best career str rate of all time and he has good record in almost every country.
He is surely amongst the top 5.
He is a better test match bowler than garner, holding, wasim, waqar, ambrose. He played in an when flat pitches were more frequent.

Spot on.
 
I made a table featuring important parameters for bowlers and ranked them. To reduce clutter i selected bowlers with 150+ away wickets and 300+ overall wickets.

Overall record
[table=width: 500, class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Avg Rank [/td][td]Player [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Wkts [/td][td]Ave [/td][td]SR [/td][td]5W [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1 [/td][td]MD Marshall (WI) [/td][td]81 [/td][td]376 [/td][td]20.94 [/td][td]46.7 [/td][td]22 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2 [/td][td]CEL Ambrose (WI) [/td][td]98 [/td][td]405 [/td][td]20.99 [/td][td]54.5 [/td][td]22 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]3 [/td][td]GD McGrath (AUS) [/td][td]124 [/td][td]563 [/td][td]21.64 [/td][td]51.9 [/td][td]29 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]4 [/td][td]AA Donald (SA) [/td][td]72 [/td][td]330 [/td][td]22.25 [/td][td]47 [/td][td]20 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]5 [/td][td]Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ) [/td][td]86 [/td][td]431 [/td][td]22.29 [/td][td]50.8 [/td][td]36 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]6 [/td][td]Imran Khan (PAK) [/td][td]88 [/td][td]362 [/td][td]22.81 [/td][td]53.7 [/td][td]23 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]7 [/td][td]DW Steyn (SA) [/td][td]93 [/td][td]439 [/td][td]22.95 [/td][td]42.3 [/td][td]26 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]8 [/td][td]SM Pollock (SA) [/td][td]108 [/td][td]421 [/td][td]23.11 [/td][td]57.8 [/td][td]16 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]9 [/td][td]Waqar Younis (PAK) [/td][td]87 [/td][td]373 [/td][td]23.56 [/td][td]43.4 [/td][td]22 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]10 [/td][td]Wasim Akram (PAK) [/td][td]104 [/td][td]414 [/td][td]23.62 [/td][td]54.6 [/td][td]25 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]11 [/td][td]CA Walsh (WI) [/td][td]132 [/td][td]519 [/td][td]24.44 [/td][td]57.8 [/td][td]22 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]12 [/td][td]JM Anderson (ENG) [/td][td]148 [/td][td]575 [/td][td]26.93 [/td][td]56.2 [/td][td]27 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]13 [/td][td]IT Botham (ENG) [/td][td]102 [/td][td]383 [/td][td]28.4 [/td][td]56.9 [/td][td]27 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]14 [/td][td]WPUJC Vaas (SL) [/td][td]111 [/td][td]355 [/td][td]29.58 [/td][td]66 [/td][td]12 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]15 [/td][td]N Kapil Dev (INDIA) [/td][td]131 [/td][td]434 [/td][td]29.64 [/td][td]63.9 [/td][td]23 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]16 [/td][td]Z Khan (INDIA) [/td][td]92 [/td][td]311 [/td][td]32.94 [/td][td]60.4 [/td][td]11 [/td][/tr]
[/table]

Away Record
[table=width: 500, class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]AwAvg Rank [/td][td]Player [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Wkt [/td][td]Away Ave [/td][td]SR [/td][td]5W [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1 [/td][td]CEL Ambrose (WI) [/td][td]46 [/td][td]202 [/td][td]20.78 [/td][td]53.3 [/td][td]11 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2 [/td][td]GD McGrath (AUS) [/td][td]55 [/td][td]260 [/td][td]21.35 [/td][td]49.8 [/td][td]18 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]3 [/td][td]MD Marshall (WI) [/td][td]50 [/td][td]219 [/td][td]21.57 [/td][td]49.8 [/td][td]14 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]4 [/td][td]Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ) [/td][td]43 [/td][td]230 [/td][td]21.72 [/td][td]48.9 [/td][td]21 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]5 [/td][td]AA Donald (SA) [/td][td]34 [/td][td]153 [/td][td]22.96 [/td][td]49.3 [/td][td]8 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]6 [/td][td]DW Steyn (SA) [/td][td]37 [/td][td]164 [/td][td]24.23 [/td][td]43.8 [/td][td]10 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]7 [/td][td]Wasim Akram (PAK) [/td][td]62 [/td][td]255 [/td][td]24.61 [/td][td]57.3 [/td][td]17 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]8 [/td][td]CA Walsh (WI) [/td][td]74 [/td][td]290 [/td][td]25.03 [/td][td]56.9 [/td][td]14 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]9 [/td][td]SM Pollock (SA) [/td][td]49 [/td][td]186 [/td][td]25.68 [/td][td]64.5 [/td][td]7 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]10 [/td][td]Imran Khan (PAK) [/td][td]50 [/td][td]199 [/td][td]25.76 [/td][td]59.2 [/td][td]13 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]11 [/td][td]Waqar Younis (PAK) [/td][td]49 [/td][td]197 [/td][td]25.96 [/td][td]47.3 [/td][td]11 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]12 [/td][td]IT Botham (ENG) [/td][td]43 [/td][td]157 [/td][td]29.63 [/td][td]60.9 [/td][td]10 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]13 [/td][td]Z Khan (INDIA) [/td][td]54 [/td][td]207 [/td][td]31.47 [/td][td]55.4 [/td][td]8 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]14 [/td][td]WPUJC Vaas (SL) [/td][td]54 [/td][td]175 [/td][td]32.34 [/td][td]70.3 [/td][td]7 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]15 [/td][td]N Kapil Dev (INDIA) [/td][td]66 [/td][td]215 [/td][td]32.85 [/td][td]72.2 [/td][td]12 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]16 [/td][td]JM Anderson (ENG) [/td][td]59 [/td][td]185 [/td][td]34.01 [/td][td]68.8 [/td][td]6 [/td][/tr]
[/table]

Final Table
[table=width: 500, class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Rank [/td][td]Player [/td][td]Wk [/td][td]Avg [/td][td]SR [/td][td]5W [/td][td]Aw Avg [/td][td]Sum [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]1 [/td][td]GD McGrath (AUS) [/td][td]2 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]15 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]2 [/td][td]Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ) [/td][td]6 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]21 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]3 [/td][td]DW Steyn (SA) [/td][td]4 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]23 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]4 [/td][td]MD Marshall (WI) [/td][td]11 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]29 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]5 [/td][td]CEL Ambrose (WI) [/td][td]9 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]8 [/td][td]10 [/td][td]1 [/td][td]30 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]6 [/td][td]Wasim Akram (PAK) [/td][td]8 [/td][td]10 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]40 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]7 [/td][td]AA Donald (SA) [/td][td]15 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]13 [/td][td]5 [/td][td]41 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]8 [/td][td]Imran Khan (PAK) [/td][td]13 [/td][td]6 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]7 [/td][td]10 [/td][td]43 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]9 [/td][td]CA Walsh (WI) [/td][td]3 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]8 [/td][td]43 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]10 [/td][td]JM Anderson (ENG) [/td][td]1 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]10 [/td][td]4 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]43 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]11 [/td][td]Waqar Younis (PAK) [/td][td]12 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]2 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]46 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]12 [/td][td]IT Botham (ENG) [/td][td]10 [/td][td]13 [/td][td]11 [/td][td]3 [/td][td]12 [/td][td]49 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]13 [/td][td]SM Pollock (SA) [/td][td]7 [/td][td]8 [/td][td]13 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]9 [/td][td]51 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]14 [/td][td]N Kapil Dev (INDIA) [/td][td]5 [/td][td]15 [/td][td]15 [/td][td]8 [/td][td]15 [/td][td]58 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]15 [/td][td]WPUJC Vaas (SL) [/td][td]14 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]15 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]73 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]16 [/td][td]Z Khan (INDIA) [/td][td]16 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]14 [/td][td]16 [/td][td]13 [/td][td]75 [/td][/tr]
[/table]
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Welcome to Karachi Pakistan - Curtly Ambrose - one of the world's greatest fast bowlers of all time from West Indies and Simon Taufel former Australian cricket umpire - one of the most experienced officials on the ICC Elite Panel. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/PakistanWelcomesYou?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#PakistanWelcomesYou</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/thePSLt20?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@thePSLt20</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/PSLinPakistan?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#PSLinPakistan</a> <a href="https://t.co/U7iHxTC6Oz">pic.twitter.com/U7iHxTC6Oz</a></p>— Faisal Javed Khan (@FaisalJavedKhan) <a href="https://twitter.com/FaisalJavedKhan/status/1230549575091412992?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 20, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
[MENTION=53377]jeetu[/MENTION] - The rankings list of fast bowlers looked quite good until I noticed a certain Z Khan from India.. he clearly does not belong in such elite company as the names on this list whatever any statistics say.
 
No bowler could intimidate like Ambrose, perhaps not in the history of the game. Few greater sights than watching Ambrose run up to the crease, with a quivering batsman (usually Michael Atherton) waiting to face him at the other end. Anyone stating that he'd be getting smashed around in this era is clueless. Easily in top 3 I've seen live. Arguably behind McGrath and Wasim, but no one else.

Not even Marshall or Hadlee?
 
Pretty much the GOAT
In no world is McGrath greater than Ambrose. Ambrose was McGrath before mcgrath was, except Ambrose was more capable of bowling destructive spells
Steyn and Marshall were probably more effective in all conditions but Ambrose was that perfect line and length fast bowler
 
In the top ten of all time. Guys like Akram, Marshall, Holding, Waqar, Lillee, Thompson, McGrath even Garner are all above him. Ambrose was in the same class as Hadlee.

Waqar, holding and Thompson above ambrose? You are surely having an absolute laugh mate
 
poor record vs india away. So no. I would put steyn and Marshall above him.
Yeah I have no qualms with this. Overall the two most effective fast bowlers of all time. Yet you see people posting on the internet about how manlets( men under 6ft) weren't made to be fast bowlers
Lol
 
People seem to ignore the elephant in the room.

Ambrose, Garner, McGrath and Van Der Bijl were identical clones. Absolutely identical.

And for all you see on highlights packages, in Tests none of them seamed or swung more than 1 or 2 balls per season.

They were all accurate and bowed a stifling line and length. But they hardly ever got the ball to do anything in the air or off the pitch - and they didn’t really need to.
 
People seem to ignore the elephant in the room.

Ambrose, Garner, McGrath and Van Der Bijl were identical clones. Absolutely identical.

And for all you see on highlights packages, in Tests none of them seamed or swung more than 1 or 2 balls per season.

They were all accurate and bowed a stifling line and length. But they hardly ever got the ball to do anything in the air or off the pitch - and they didn’t really need to.

exactly. shorter ones need to be more skilful. Unfortunately. the aforementioned guys can bowl at 130 - 135 and still be effective in SENA.

but short bowlers need to pitch it up and bowl around 135 PLUS to be as effective.
 
People seem to ignore the elephant in the room.

Ambrose, Garner, McGrath and Van Der Bijl were identical clones. Absolutely identical.

And for all you see on highlights packages, in Tests none of them seamed or swung more than 1 or 2 balls per season.

They were all accurate and bowed a stifling line and length. But they hardly ever got the ball to do anything in the air or off the pitch - and they didn’t really need to.
You ruled out naseem shah for being under 6ft. Shan't be paying too much attention to this post
 
[MENTION=53377]jeetu[/MENTION] - The rankings list of fast bowlers looked quite good until I noticed a certain Z Khan from India.. he clearly does not belong in such elite company as the names on this list whatever any statistics say.

He gets on the list purely on longevity factor. Not many bowlers have 150+ away test wickets and 300+ overall. Many great bowlers missed out because they didn't have 150+ away test wickets. For example Dennis Lillee has only 124 away test wickets as compared to 231 home test wickets.
 
Pretty much the GOAT
In no world is McGrath greater than Ambrose. Ambrose was McGrath before mcgrath was, except Ambrose was more capable of bowling destructive spells
Steyn and Marshall were probably more effective in all conditions but Ambrose was that perfect line and length fast bowler

What about Wasim?Not more verstaile and effective on falt tracks?
 
He gets on the list purely on longevity factor. Not many bowlers have 150+ away test wickets and 300+ overall. Many great bowlers missed out because they didn't have 150+ away test wickets. For example Dennis Lillee has only 124 away test wickets as compared to 231 home test wickets.
Well then that’s where statistics lie and shouldn’t be taken seriously — any possible statistic that puts Zaheer Khan higher then Denis Lillee unless you are comparing them as batsmen or their fielding abilities , should be safely ignored.
 
Well then that’s where statistics lie and shouldn’t be taken seriously — any possible statistic that puts Zaheer Khan higher then Denis Lillee unless you are comparing them as batsmen or their fielding abilities , should be safely ignored.

How can stats lie , they are what they are. Basic Stats only tells a part of the entire picture. This list was deliberately made short to reduce the clutter as stated in past#44. In past i have made bigger lists with far more parameters to give it more it a more accurate look. And even that lists needs more refinement.
http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/showthread.php?273207-Stats-Thread-Top-150-Test-bowlers&highlight=
On that list Lillee came at no.18 , Zaheer Khan at 70.
You can click below to see my full list.
Rank Bowler
1 GD McGrath (AUS)
2 SF Barnes (ENG)
3 SK Warne (AUS)
4 Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ)
5 CEL Ambrose (WI)
6 MD Marshall (WI)
7 M Muralitharan (ICC/SL)
8 J Garner (WI)
9 CA Walsh (WI)
10 Wasim Akram (PAK)

11 DW Steyn (SA)
12 AA Donald (SA)
13 AK Davidson (AUS)
14 Imran Khan (PAK)
15 Waqar Younis (PAK)
16 MA Holding (WI)
17 SM Pollock (SA)
18 DK Lillee (AUS)
19 WJ O'Reilly (AUS)
20 JA Snow (ENG)

21 RR Lindwall (AUS)
22 Mohammad Asif (PAK)
23 RJ Harris (AUS)
24 PM Pollock (SA)
25 CV Grimmett (AUS)
26 AME Roberts (WI)
27 FS Trueman (ENG)
28 IR Bishop (WI)
29 R Benaud (AUS)
30 RGD Willis (ENG)

31 VD Philander (SA)
32 KR Miller (AUS)
33 Shoaib Akhtar (PAK)
34 JN Gillespie (AUS)
35 BR Taylor (NZ)
36 DL Underwood (ENG)
37 TM Alderman (AUS)
38 WW Hall (WI)
39 ARC Fraser (ENG)
40 TE Bailey (ENG)

41 PR Reiffel (AUS)
42 JB Statham (ENG)
43 JM Anderson (ENG)
44 IT Botham (ENG)
45 D Gough (ENG)
46 M Morkel (SA)
47 HJ Tayfield (SA)
48 WA Johnston (AUS)
49 CEH Croft (WI)

50 JC Laker (ENG)
51 LR Gibbs (WI)
52 MA Starc (AUS)
53 TL Goddard (SA)
54 AN Connolly (AUS)
55 A Kumble (INDIA)
56 MHN Walker (AUS)
57 H Verity (ENG)
58 N Kapil Dev (INDIA)
59 IK Pathan (INDIA)
60 SCJ Broad (ENG)

61 R Ashwin (INDIA)
62 S Ramadhin (WI)
63 GD McKenzie (AUS)
64 AL Valentine (WI)
65 MW Tate (ENG)
66 Saeed Ajmal (PAK)
67 JR Hazlewood (AUS)
68 MG Johnson (AUS)
69 AR Caddick (ENG)
70 Z Khan (INDIA)

71 Saqlain Mushtaq (PAK)
72 NM Lyon (AUS)
73 MJ Hoggard (ENG)
74 GP Swann (ENG)
75 AA Mallett (AUS)
76 CL Cairns (NZ)
77 WPUJC Vaas (SL)
78 Fazal Mahmood (PAK)
79 MG Hughes (AUS)
80 TA Boult (NZ)

81 HH Streak (ZIM)
82 SP Gupte (INDIA)
83 AW Greig (ENG)
84 DL Vettori (ICC/NZ)
85 CM Old (ENG)
86 A Flintoff (ENG/ICC)
87 CJ McDermott (AUS)
88 SCG MacGill (AUS)
89 Mohammad Amir (PAK)
90 HMRKB Herath (SL)

91 AV Bedser (ENG)
92 Mohammed Shami (INDIA)
93 B Chandrasekhar (INDIA)
94 B Lee (AUS)
95 B Bedi (INDIA)
96 Yasir Shah (PAK)
97 JR Thomson (AUS)
98 J Srinath (INDIA)
99 PM Siddle (AUS)
100 Mushtaq Ahmed (PAK)

101 M Ntini (SA)
102 DA Allen (ENG)
103 TG Southee (NZ)
104 W Rhodes (ENG)
105 GAR Lock (ENG)
106 GF Lawson (AUS)
107 Iqbal Qasim (PAK)
108 Shakib Al Hasan (BDESH)
109 Sarfraz Nawaz (PAK)
110 EAS Prasanna (INDIA)

111 GR Dilley (ENG)
112 PR Adams (SA)
113 Danish Kaneria (PAK)
114 JH Kallis (ICC/SA)
115 IWG Johnson (AUS)
116 A Nel (SA)
117 GS Sobers (WI)
118 Harbhajan Singh (INDIA)
119 SL Malinga (SL)
120 FJ Titmus (ENG)

121 VA Holder (WI)
122 D Bishoo (WI)
123 SJ Harmison (ENG/ICC)
124 EJ Chatfield (NZ)
125 I Sharma (INDIA)
126 M Dillon (WI)
127 MS Kasprowicz (AUS)
128 KAJ Roach (WI)
129 Umar Gul (PAK)
130 CS Martin (NZ)

131 PH Edmonds (ENG)
132 Abdul Razzaq (PAK)
133 BL Cairns (NZ)
134 JE Emburey (ENG)
135 PAJ DeFreitas (ENG)
136 MS Panesar (ENG)
137 JG Bracewell (NZ)
138 DE Malcolm (ENG)
139 AF Giles (ENG)
140 MH Mankad (INDIA)

141 N Boje (SA)
142 RAS Lakmal (SL)
143 Intikhab Alam (PAK)
144 PL Harris (SA)
145 FH Edwards (WI)
146 Abdul Qadir (PAK)
147 PCR Tufnell (ENG)
148 S Venkataraghavan (INDIA)
149 DVP Wright (ENG)
150 RJ Shastri (INDIA)
 
Waqar, holding and Thompson above ambrose? You are surely having an absolute laugh mate

No I am serious as sin. Have you been watching gilli danda that you don't know this?
 
90s fast bowlers were better than bowlers of previous era. They bowled to batsmen wearing helmets, bouncers rule and also ball tampering was getting harder(although still quite popular).

Hence,

McGrath > Hadlee
Wasim > Imran
Donald > Lillee

Coming to Ambrose, he is a legitimate all-time great of the game and among top 5 fast bowlers of all-time.

Marshall
McGrath
Steyn
Hadlee
Ambrose
Wasim
Donald
Imran
Lillee
Trueman
 
A bowling average of 38 vs India disqualifies him from being considered amongst Top 5.

Sorry.

Great bowler nonetheless.

Curtly talk to no man.
 
I think he was better than Walsh. He was a really good bowler but not sure about ATG.
 
A bowling average of 38 vs India disqualifies him from being considered amongst Top 5.

Sorry.

Great bowler nonetheless.

Curtly talk to no man.

Only played them at home, and India during this era was rubbish away from home
Not the litmus test for a batsmen during this period - SA, Aus, Pak were all better

He is 5th after:
1. Marshall
2. McGrath
3. Hadlee
4. Steyn
5. Ambrose
 
Definetly in my top 8 bowlers of all time Amby was one of the very best
 
does anybody know why he didnt play more in asia and outside Eng Aus and Wi?
 
Happy 60th birthday to the great man! A bowling average of 20.99 in 98 Tests. Up there with the finest fast bowlers the game has ever seen, and quite possibly the best of his time. The only name that comes up from 90's onwards who can challenge him for the top spot is the great Glenn McGrath.
 
Up to 1994 he was sharp, and obv had all the advantages of a very tall bowler with bounce etc.

He wasn’t the most exciting to watch even at that time, but after 1994 with gradual reduction of pace he became a very boring watch. Effective yes, but boring (not as boring as “watching paint dry” Mcgrath but boring nonetheless.

He’s up there though - as a metronome I would rank him above mcgrath. Ambrose played against a better calibre of batsmen than Mcgrath did.

I won’t compare him to his more attacking counterparts because of the difference in styles.
 
Desis don’t like to rate Ambrose, Walsh, Pollock & Alan Donald, but they were one of the best players of all team. Easily in any Top 10.
 
I remember watching Curtly on Test highlights as a kid and he was just this big, lanky, gangly man who thumped his way to the crease and was great at bouncing opponents out on cracking pitches...pitches which today would receive poor ratings by the ICC.

That is not to negate he was a very very good fast bowler and quite tricky as his pace dropped, he never really had much swing and his bounce wasn't always effective...he learned to be ever more accurate, nagging away at a perfect line and length, almost as good as McGrath in that respect. His lack of versatility is however evidenced by the fact he wasnt as good an ODI bowler as an Akram, or Younis, or McGrath.

Certainly still a top 10 though!
 
Desis don’t like to rate Ambrose, Walsh, Pollock & Alan Donald, but they were one of the best players of all team. Easily in any Top 10.
I rate Donald and Ambrose in his early career.

Pollock and Mcgrath. Boring, boring, boring.

The reason why I do have a negative perception of them is because it’s all very well and good having great line and length and being miserly, but those same bowlers wouldn’t have had a career prior to the 90s.

By that I mean they wouldn’t have got as many wickets as they did. In the 80s and before, you needed more because batsmen had a lot more patience to just leave the ball more often. From the 90s onwards, with the general run rate getting quicker, maybe loss of patience etc, it brought these bowlers in to the game more.

These weren’t bowlers who would force wickets and for me, you are missing a crucial ingredient if you don’t have that. Moreover, I tend to rate bowlers based on how they would do in any era. The metronomes would not last in other eras. They would just be 3rd/4th seamers.

In fact, I remember when Mcgrath burst on the scene, one of the aussie writers did a compelling analysis on his merits as the next potential great. “Good 3rd seamer, but he’s certainly not a replacement for McDermott he hasn’t got that extra gear or anything special about him”.

Now we can say Mcgrath proved that writer wrong. However, he was judging based on what had gone on before. And in that assessment he was right.

If we take it a step further, let’s think about metronomes from the mid 2000s onwards. Have there been any great ones? I can’t remember any. Stuart Clark was touted as the natural heir to Mcgrath. He disappeared soon after. Hazlewood is another one now. However, he’s had to develop his bowling more and will never be bracketed with the likes of Mcgrath.

Yes some medium pacers have done well recently like Anderson, Philander etc, they were accurate, but they had more - they could swing it prodigiously. We can argue that batsmen have learned to deal with the metronomes now too.

A case can be made that metronomes had a window to make hay - and that window was probably 1994-2006. Well done, but in other eras you may just be simple trundlers.
 
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