Dennis Lillee : The best cricketer of the decade of the 1970s?

[Harsh Thakor]

When I consider the great courage he revealed and his unflinching determination to make a herculaen comeback after a back injury I feel Denis Lillee by just a whisker would be the cricketer of the decade of the 1970's.No cricketer of that decade was as agressive, determined,skilled or consistent as Lillee.He was the ultimate man to ressurect a team from a precarious position .Taking 5 wickets per test is a phenomenal achievement and adding scalps in Kerry Packer WSC supertsets Lillee would have have 104 more wickets.Lillee played a major role in Australia emerging the dominant team of the 1970's before the Calypsos took over the mantle.No cricketer more defined the face of Australian cricket.Dennis was the ultimate epitome of agression and competitive spirit in the game of cricket.No paceman before posessed as many attributes of the perfect pace bowler,be it speed control,accuracy or movement.It was cricket's ultimate sight witnessing Lillee tear away at great batsmen resembling a tiger chasing it's prey or a bomber raiding an airbase.Inthe 1977 centenary test when he captured 6-26 Lillee was simply cricketing perfection personified.Capturing 79 scalps in 15 games in Kerry Packer cricket bowling against greats like Viv and Barry Richards was a phenomenal achievement and so was taking 24 wickets in 3 games against rest of the world team bowling against greats like Sobers ,Kanhai, Graeme Pollock and Gavakar.

He may have been in losing teams often in unofficial tests but he was a part of many a winning side in official cricket.His best contribution in winning series were in the 1974-75 home Ashes and 1975-76 home Frank Worrell trophy where Australia simply devoured the opposition ,making mincemeat out of the proponents.His 31 wickets in a drawn series in England in 1972 made an immense contribution in ressurecting the spirit of Australian cricket.In WSC supertsets I can also never forget his match-winning 5 wicket haul to win the last game of the 1977-78 edition against a powerful world xi as well as his 7-23 versus West Indies in 1978.Infact his match-wining 8-26 versus rest of the world at Perth in 1972 was his best ever spell where he created the effect of a land cruiser,devastating opponents like flesh ripped of a body.Above all Lillee captured more wickets of top order batsmen than any bowler of his era with Viv Richards often being his bunny.Lille did not recive the support other great paceman like Marshal,Akram,Donlad and Mcgrath did later,in his best spells.


Lillee overshadows Viv Richards as he was outstanding from 1972 itself while Viv became a superstar or started his career around 1975.To me Lillee's closest opponents of the 1970's in order of merit were Ian Chappell,Sunil Gavaskar and Greg Chappell,in that order..I rate Ian so highly because of his outstanding role as a leader and his great performances to overturn a crisis.


STATISTICS BY S.RAJESH


For almost 18 months between February 1973 and November 1974, Lillee did not play competitive cricket because of injuries, but came back strongly to become the world's best bowler over the next three years. In 1977, he played in World Series Cricket and demonstrated once again that he was at the peak of his career. In a series that featured the world's top fast bowlers, Lillee took the most wickets, though he also played the most matches, picking up 67 wickets in 14 games across the two seasons.

Performance of top bowlers in World Series Cricket Bowler Team Matches played Wickets taken Average 5 10
Garth Le Roux World XI 3 17 15.88 2 0
Mike Procter World XI 4 14 16.07 0 0
Imran Khan World XI 5 25 20.84 0 0
Michael Holding West Indies 9 35 23.31 1 0
Andy Roberts West Indies and World XI 13 50 24.14 1 0
Joel Garner West Indies and World XI 7 35 24.77 1 0
Max Walker Australia 7 28 25.42 2 0
Dennis Lillee Australia 14 67 26.86 4 0
Jeff Thomson Australia 5 16 29.75 1 0

Lillee's skills and Thomson's pace were instrumental in making Australia the world's best team in the mid 1970s. In 26 matches together, they picked up 217 wickets at an average of just over 27. They routed England in 1974-75, sharing 58 wickets between them in six Tests as Australia won 4-1. In the 1975-76 series against West Indies, which Australia won 5-1, they again set up a convincing victory picking up 56 wickets in the six Tests. Lillee and Thomson were at their peak for three years between 1974 and 1977, picking up an extraordinary 149 wickets in 15 Tests at an average of just over 25. But their overall average is slightly higher than some of the other leading fast-bowling pairs. While Waqar Younis and Wasim Akram boast a stunning average of 22.12 with 37 five-wicket and seven ten-wicket hauls, the Caribbean pairing of Ambrose and Courtney Walsh has been the most successful, picking up 762 in 95 matches at an average of 22.67.


Almost half the Test wickets Lillee took were against England. With 167 scalps in 29 matches, Lillee was the most successful bowler in Australia-England Tests till Warne surpassed him in 2005. Only Curtly Ambrose, Malcolm Marshall and Glenn McGrath average lower than Lillee in Tests against England. He has four ten-wicket hauls in Ashes Tests, a record he shares with three other bowlers. His 11 five-wickets hauls in Ashes Tests is second only to Sydney Barnes' 12.

Lillee was one of the best bowlers in Australia, picking up 231 wickets. Among Australian bowlers who have picked up over 150 wickets in home Tests, Lillee's average is second only to McGrath's 22.43.

Best post-War bowlers against England (Qual: 100 wickets and 20 matches) Bowler Matches Wickets Average 5WI 10WM
Curtly Ambrose 34 164 18.79 8 2
Malcolm Marshall 26 127 19.18 6 1
Glenn McGrath 30 157 20.92 10 0
Dennis Lillee 29 167 21.00 11 4
Ray Lindwall 29 114 22.44 6 0
Shane Warne 36 195 23.25 11 4

Top fast-bowling pairs in Tests Pair Team Matches Wickets Average 5WI 10WM
Lillee/Thomson Australia 26 217 27.20 9 0
Roberts/Holding West Indies 30 233 25.65 13 3
Ambrose/Walsh West Indies 95 762 22.67 36 5
Donald/Pollock South Africa 47 397 21.84 22 1
Akram/Younis Pakistan 61 559 22.12 37 7
McGrath/Gillespie Australia 58 484 23.01 23 1

 

[Proactive_]

Absolutely.

 

[Robert]

Close, between DK and Vivian Richards.

Lillee was a tearaway speed and menace merchant early on. Latterly, he became the prototype for the modern thinking fast bowler. Hadlee copied him slavishly, even putting his left wrist in the same position. Imran learned how to bowl leg-cutters from speaking to DK. He called him "number one in my book".

If there has been a braver and more determined cricketer than Dennis in the last thirty years, I didn't see him.

 

[Robert]

Two champions......

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFJVga17D8c

 

[BD-fan]

Lillie is always attached with Thompson. Both complimented each other.

Viv is attached to none. He changed Cricket. When the contemporary greats had a SR of 70s, Viv was 90+. Absolutely mindboggling.

 

[Chrish]

Lillie is always attached with Thompson. Both complimented each other.

Viv is attached to none. He changed Cricket. When the contemporary greats had a SR of 70s, Viv was 90+. Absolutely mindboggling.

Viv is attached to WI TEAM

 

[squarecut]

It would have been interesting to see how he fared against the pacers of his own team. When Viv Richards faced Lillee and Thomson at their prime in 1975-76, neither he, nor most of his West Indian batting mates had an answer to Lillee and Thomson. West Indies were pulverised 5-1 in the test series.

 

[R0H1T]

It would have been interesting to see how he fared against the pacers of his own team. When Viv Richards faced Lillee and Thomson at their prime in 1975-76, neither he, nor most of his West Indian batting mates had an answer to Lillee and Thomson. West Indies were pulverised 5-1 in the test series.

That was when pretty much all of them, barring Clive & Fredericks, were new to the intl scene & vastly inexperienced. Of course Aussies never hesitated going Bodyline (as opposed to the hounding Jardine & Larwood received down under) against the Windies, why do you think Clive returned the favor manifold over the next two decades?

 

[Robert]

Lillie is always attached with Thompson. Both complimented each other.

Viv is attached to none. He changed Cricket. When the contemporary greats had a SR of 70s, Viv was 90+. Absolutely mindboggling.

No he isn't. Thommo was not the same bowler after his 1976 injury while Lillee was the real hard man, who often opened the bowling with Pascoe or Lawson.

Sir Viv didn't change cricket. Not even Bradman did. I would say that perhaps only WG Grace did that.

 

[Robert]

That was when pretty much all of them, barring Clive & Fredericks, were new to the intl scene & vastly inexperienced. Of course Aussies never hesitated going Bodyline (as opposed to the hounding Jardine & Larwood received down under) against the Windies, why do you think Clive returned the favor manifold over the next two decades?

They didn't use Bodyline, which had been outlawed for forty years. They were just fast and short to an orthodox field with very good slip catchers.

 

[R0H1T]

They didn't use Bodyline, which had been outlawed for forty years. They were just fast and short to an orthodox field with very good slip catchers.

Of course, because the two fielders behind square on the leg side rule was a direct response to the outrage back then, but the tactics were just the same. In fact this is oft times cited as the reason why Clive went with his four fast bowlers & then heckled every other batting lineup out there.

 

[shaz619]

Is it not true that he has a bowling average of 70 in asia ? and has notoriously avoided touring there

 

[Suleiman]

Don't get the hoopla behind this guy.

 

[squarecut]

The highest test wicket tally was 307 when Lillee began his career. It became 309 in 1976. Lillee took it to 355. And that too when his career was supposed to have ended at the halfway mark due to a career threatening injury.

 

[Tusker]

They didn't use Bodyline, which had been outlawed for forty years. They were just fast and short to an orthodox field with very good slip catchers.

The actual law forbidding more than 2 on the legside behind square was only added to the MCC rules in 1960.

Along with the lbw rule ( pitching outside leg and impact outside off ) this is the most farcical law in cricket that makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[amax]

without a doubt , one of greatest cricketers ever , If not for Lillee Genuine fast bowling wouldnt have been same.

Imran and Windies Quartet both rate him as idol

 

[Robert]

Is it not true that he has a bowling average of 70 in asia ? and has notoriously avoided touring there

Check the records - Australia did not tour India in those days.

Lillee went to Pakistan despite carrying an injury and played three tests with his back in a brace, bowling medium pace on Bunsens deliberately rigged to nullify him, on which which Imran hardly bowled either because it was a waste of his effort. As it was, Lillee did a good containing job in support of the spinners. He didn't take wickets but his economy rate was low.

He also played one test in SL where he was fit again, but it was another spin wicket so Yardley and Hogan did most of the bowling after Lillee knocked a couple off the top.

So in other words, not really a fair test or a meaningful sample size.

I saw him turn out for a County LO match at age 45. He was bowling military medium pace but still got lift, swing and cut both ways. He took two wickets for not many IIRC.

 

[Robert]

Of course, because the two fielders behind square on the leg side rule was a direct response to the outrage back then, but the tactics were just the same. In fact this is oft times cited as the reason why Clive went with his four fast bowlers & then heckled every other batting lineup out there.

The tactics weren't the same - Bodyline had seven leg slips!

 

[shaz619]

Check the records - Australia did not tour India in those days.

Lillee went to Pakistan despite carrying an injury and played three tests with his back in a brace, bowling medium pace on Bunsens deliberately rigged to nullify him, on which which Imran hardly bowled either because it was a waste of his effort. As it was, Lillee did a good containing job in support of the spinners. He didn't take wickets but his economy rate was low.

He also played one test in SL where he was fit again, but it was another spin wicket so Yardley and Hogan did most of the bowling after Lillee knocked a couple off the top.

So in other words, not really a fair test or a meaningful sample size.

I saw him turn out for a County LO match at age 45. He was bowling military medium pace but still got lift, swing and cut both ways. He took two wickets for not many IIRC.

It may well have been a spin wicket but good performances on such wickets ought to be commended especially given how highly regarded he is. Lanka were also a team who had just been awarded Test status. He comes across as a bowler who relishes wickets with a bit in it but not so invincible when conditions are tough for bowlers, then again only a small number of bowlers in history are extraordinary in that way so Lillee can be forgiven and also we can overlook it given the sample

 

[Robert]

It may well have been a spin wicket but good performances on such wickets ought to be commended especially given how highly regarded he is. Lanka were also a team who had just been awarded Test status. He comes across as a bowler who relishes wickets with a bit in it but not so invincible when conditions are tough for bowlers, then again only a small number of bowlers in history are extraordinary in that way so Lillee can be forgiven and also we can overlook it given the sample

Conditions were tough for bowlers in Australia in the seventies. That comes from Imran, not me. IIRC one time Lillee got 7-23 at Melbourne which was the roadiest road ever. No bounce, no pace, no seam, no spin, nothing.

I remember Boycott saying of one test in Australia in 1980 - where England had Willis, Botham, Lever and Underwood and got flattened - that we needed an extraordinary bowler on that deck and we had none and Australia had one. Lillee got eleven wickets in the match.

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...ers-Dennis-Lillee-the-best-bowler-of-his-time

 

[shaz619]

Conditions were tough for bowlers in Australia in the seventies. That comes from Imran, not me. IIRC one time Lillee got 7-23 at Melbourne which was the roadiest road ever. No bounce, no pace, no seam, no spin, nothing.

I remember Boycott saying of one test in Australia in 1980 - where England had Willis, Botham, Lever and Underwood and got flattened - that we needed an extraordinary bowler on that deck and we had none and Australia had one. Lillee got eleven wickets in the match.

http://www.pakpassion.net/ppforum/s...ers-Dennis-Lillee-the-best-bowler-of-his-time

In that case I stand corrected 'That comes from Imran' say no more Robert !

Seriously though, have been watching some of his old footage and looking up his numbers, the only real weakness was asia but you've given some context on his performances there. Would have been nice to have seen him play more games there though, why did they not tour India or Pakistan enough in those days ?

 

[Junaids]

Again, I'd go with Barry Richards.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Again, I'd go with Barry Richards.

What about mike proctor?How would you rank Lillee as a fast bowler?

 

[Robert]

In that case I stand corrected 'That comes from Imran' say no more Robert !

Seriously though, have been watching some of his old footage and looking up his numbers, the only real weakness was asia but you've given some context on his performances there. Would have been nice to have seen him play more games there though, why did they not tour India or Pakistan enough in those days ?

I don't know. They went to WI, and SA before the ban, but not Asia for some reason. Desis rate Hadlee higher than Lillee because he had a good record in Asia but I saw a lot of them both and would take Lillee over the Kiwi because he got better under pressure, while Hadlee could sometimes wilt if attacked.

 

[R0H1T]

The tactics weren't the same - Bodyline had seven leg slips!

Bodyline was devised for Bradman, was it not? Yet Jardine employed it against everyone, out of all those dismissed how many were out on the legside, as opposed to bowled/lbw or retired hurt & possibly even caught on the offside?

Bodyline was pretty much fear & intimidation, as was allowed under the law, that's why it was condemned. If it were employed only against Bradman, then not many would've had problems with it.

This is what Lillee & Thomson did against the young Windies side in that series, somehow you're forgetting what the essence of Bodyline was & why it was condemned at that time.

 

[Robert]

Bodyline was devised for Bradman, was it not? Yet Jardine employed it against everyone, out of all those dismissed how many were out on the legside, as opposed to bowled/lbw or retired hurt & possibly even caught on the offside?

Bodyline was pretty much fear & intimidation, as was allowed under the law, that's why it was condemned. If it were employed only against Bradman, then not many would've had problems with it.

This is what Lillee & Thomson did against the young Windies side in that series, somehow you're forgetting what the essence of Bodyline was & why it was condemned at that time.

Jardine didn't employ Fast Leg Theory against everyone. He set normal fields for the Aussie openers and switched it around when Bradman and McCabe came in. Also, Gubby Allen refused to bowl to that field. He was an amateur so could get away with disobeying Jardine.

The West Indies bowled Fast Leg Theory at England a year later. Jardine was hit many times, but still scored a century in one match.

You'd have to look at a history book to see who got out which way.

Intimidatory bowling in the usual sense arguably began with Bill Bowes, a sort of Garner type who said "You must show the batsman your bumper". He did this at County level independent of Jardine.

Fast Leg Theory was outlawed because it killed the game as a spectacle. But there have always been fast bowlers capable of causing harm. Indian batsmen used to back away from Trueman, who had a calypso written in his honour when he went to WI: "Mr Bumper Man".

 

[R0H1T]

Jardine didn't employ Fast Leg Theory against everyone. He set normal fields for the Aussie openers and switched it around when Bradman and McCabe came in. Also, Gubby Allen refused to bowl to that field. He was an amateur so could get away with disobeying Jardine.

The West Indies bowled Fast Leg Theory at England a year later. Jardine was hit many times, but still scored a century in one match.

You'd have to look at a history book to see who got out which way.

Intimidatory bowling in the usual sense arguably began with Bill Bowes, a sort of Garner type who said "You must show the batsman your bumper". He did this at County level independent of Jardine.

Fast Leg Theory was outlawed because it killed the game as a spectacle. But there have always been fast bowlers capable of causing harm. Indian batsmen used to back away from Trueman, who had a calypso written in his honour when he went to WI: "Mr Bumper Man".

Probably because he didn't need to especially when the main batters were out, I guess we'd have to check the match footage to see when it was employed but what I was alluding to was that Bodyline was effective the same way Windies employed their bumpers throughout the 70/80/90 period scaring many of their opponents into submission. The full ball, directed at the stumps or moving away towards slips, is more effective when it's mixed with short balls. This is essentially what Bodyline morphed into, once the two fielder behind square rule was put into effect. It still works to this day, Stuart Broad being a prime example.

Yes & that's why I said that Bodyline was effective in more ways than one. The traditional leg theory was also employed at times to check the run flow but it won't get you many wickets.

And Bedi declared the innings (twice?) on Ind tour of WI in 76 to protect his batters & bowlers from harm. The point is, fast bowlers are the most lethal weapon in test cricket. The initimidatory tactics employed by Lillee (that series) was akin to Bodyline, Clive took that a step further with his 4 fast bowlers & then WI ruled test cricket for a good two decades.

You don;t need 7 leg slips to get batters out, back then (without helmets) just a few good bouncers or short balls would do the job. This is what great fast bowlers have always done, it's effectiveness though peaked only after the 60's when you had a number of quick & accurate pacers like Lillee.

 

[Robert]

Curiously, WI were not usually bumper-happy, with the odd exceptions. Batsmen could hook or duck or sway. The really dangerous ball was the one that got up off a length. Then there was Marshall who was skiddy, his short-pitchers often didn't climb that much.

IIRC that India match was on a wet wicket.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Dennis Lillee has to be one of the greatest bowlers of all time when the wicket allows for his bowling to be deadly.... Put him where the wickets are not in his favor and .....

 

[MenInG]

Wonder if lack of helmets in those days was another factor which made these bowlers seem deadlier than others?

 

[R0H1T]

Wonder if lack of helmets in those days was another factor which made these bowlers seem deadlier than others?

Yup

Though I;m not sure who you're referring to?

 

[MenInG]

Yup ����

Though I;m not sure who you're referring to?

Even Lillee, Thomo etc - think intimidation in bowling would get them wickets as some batsmen would simply surrender.

 

[ToeCrusher2]

Wonder if lack of helmets in those days was another factor which made these bowlers seem deadlier than others?

That's why Dale is probably the Greatest fast bowler of all time. The bowlers of yesteryears didn't have to deal with batting friendly wickets, tails who could bat in addition to having the advantage of no helmets.

 

[Robert]

Wonder if lack of helmets in those days was another factor which made these bowlers seem deadlier than others?

Helmets were considered unmanly in the 1970s. I think Dennis Amiss was the first to wear one - a motorbike helmet, against Lillee and Thommo. He got stick from the Aussie crowds.

Tailenders didn't get bounced. Sides would agree before a series began that nine, ten, jack were protected.

Richards never wore one. Botham faced Lillee, Imran and Hadlee with no helmet, though he donned one against WI in the latter half of his career.

Batters get hit in the head more often now because they don't learn to duck and weave. Helmets make you more likely to get hit, but they absorb damage.

Getting was hit flush in the face by Marshall. Helmets had no face grilles then. Everyone got a grille fitted after that.

 

[Robert]

Dennis Lillee has to be one of the greatest bowlers of all time when the wicket allows for his bowling to be deadly.... Put him where the wickets are not in his favor and .....

....he takes 7-23 as stated above.

 

[Robert]

Oops, I mean 7-83. Still excellent on a Melbourne road.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Oops, I mean 7-83. Still excellent on a Melbourne road.

took 7-23 coincidentally in WSC supertest v West Indies in 1978-79.Thought you were referring to that.Like your appreciation and defence of Lillee as a super great very good examples.Another one is his 9 wickets on a relatively flat track at Brisbane in 1981-82 v Pakistan.Arguably it was WSC performances that truly defined his greatness.

 

[shaz619]

[MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION] What do you make of Lillee's greatness ?

 

[shaz619]

Don't always agree with Tusker but he does have some decent insight at times when it comes to cricketing history

 

[Bewal Express]

Lillee was a brilliant fast bowler, perhaps the greatest ever. His action was nearly perfect and he is the one competitive bowlers to play the game.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Oops, I mean 7-83. Still excellent on a Melbourne road.

lol Melbourne is not a road, He avg what 100 in Pakistan, that's A ROAD ? No wonder the poor guy never toured sub continent again, I can see what Vaskar and Co would have done to him ...

 

[Robert]

lol Melbourne is not a road, He avg what 100 in Pakistan, that's A ROAD ? No wonder the poor guy never toured sub continent again, I can see what Vaskar and Co would have done to him ...

Go for goodness sakes. You know wickets can change over time? Don't take it from me, take it from Imran. In the 1970s Adelaide was a road, Melbourne was a road.

 

[ToeCrusher2]

Go for goodness sakes. You know wickets can change over time? Don't take it from me, take it from Imran. In the 1970s Adelaide was a road, Melbourne was a road.

So he bowled a good spell in melbourne on a "road", but still at his home, right? So the visiting team was still playing out of its comfort zone, irrespective of the fact whether the pitch was a road or not. The australian bounce is enough to rattle the visiting batsmen. How many great spells did he bowl out of his comfort zone i.e. in subcontinent? You can't be labelled the greatest bowler in history if you have such a glaring hole in your resume. Nostalgia may blind the oldies like you but it won't change the FACTS.

 

[anoop]

Sample size is too low to question his abilities. Anybody can flop for four matches.

So he bowled a good spell in melbourne on a "road", but still at his home, right? So the visiting team was still playing out of its comfort zone, irrespective of the fact whether the pitch was a road or not. The australian bounce is enough to rattle the visiting batsmen. How many great spells did he bowl out of his comfort zone i.e. in subcontinent? You can't be labelled the greatest bowler in history if you have such a glaring hole in your resume. Nostalgia may blind the oldies like you but it won't change the FACTS.

 

[ToeCrusher2]

Sample size is too low to question his abilities. Anybody can flop for four matches.

So due to this low sample size he can't be labelled the greatest fast bowler, because he wasn't tested outside the comfort zone, bowling on road in hot and humid conditions of the subcontinent is an entirely different ball game to bowling on a road in melbourne

 

[Romali_rotti]

bowling on road in hot and humid conditions of the subcontinent is an entirely different ball game to bowling on a road in melbourne

Amen, the point I was trying to highlight to Robert. As great and knowledgeable poster Robert is, he is too much of a fan boi in this circumstance, so he is a little blind....

 

[Chrish]

You have brilliance of Pakistani umpires to thank for Lillie's prestigious record

 

[Tusker]

[MENTION=134300]Tusker[/MENTION] What do you make of Lillee's greatness ?

Don't always agree with Tusker but he does have some decent insight at times when it comes to cricketing history

Thanks for the kind words.

I rate Kapil , Imran, Waz and the rest of top Asian fast bowlers of that ERA as better than Lillee simply because of 2 reasons:
1. Played ten times more matches on Asian pitches than Lillee did and performed 100 times better.
2. Played in WI (top team of the 70s and 80s ) much more than Lillee did and did well.

Infact Kapils record in Aus is pretty good. All of this can be easily verified on Cricinfo (Now imagine how Kohli gets ridiculed for having a poor record in England)

Yet he ended up being voted as a top 5 cricketer of the 20th century. Its a reminder of the monopoly that the traditional power centers had in matters of cricketing history and how it was written(usually in their favor). They shaped opinions of many. And must say that they are extremely good at it. Sadly it was helped by many a distinguished Asian cricketers endorsing this line of thought even at the expense of undermining their own legacy and that of the collective Asian Cricket bloc. Classic colonial era situation.

But what concerns me is that even in this day and age where technology has decimated the barriers to sources of authentic information we still have the same old problems. We still have a large desi populace (And plenty amongst the Media Pundits) that holds any victory over the old world cricketing giants as a true measure of cricketing greatness. For all the progress that Indian Cricket has made we are at absolute ZERO when it comes to things like legacy and history . We still havent been able to shake off the Colonial hangover. We still look for a certificate of excellence from the old boys club of cricket.

 

[Tusker]

Again, I'd go with Barry Richards.

and I would again post that link that demonstrated his "Great Technique" in full glory and you would refuse to touch it with a hundred foot pole ... so much for the conviction in your heroes ability ... pity. ohh well.

 

[Haz95]

Lillee may or may not have been the greatest ever fast bowler while B Richards may or may not have been the greatest opener ever. Both do not have feets outside of their comfort zone....The former was unfortunately a failure in Asia in the chances he got while the latter has very little international feats...who knows he could've been another Voges for all we know?

Neither are the greatest of the 70s. I reckon Lillee was as good as Mitchell Johnson in his peak- also another ok bowler on flatter wickets while an absolute hurricane on helpful faster wickets.

 

[Robert]

So he bowled a good spell in melbourne on a "road", but still at his home, right? So the visiting team was still playing out of its comfort zone, irrespective of the fact whether the pitch was a road or not. The australian bounce is enough to rattle the visiting batsmen. How many great spells did he bowl out of his comfort zone i.e. in subcontinent? You can't be labelled the greatest bowler in history if you have such a glaring hole in your resume. Nostalgia may blind the oldies like you but it won't change the FACTS.

Not one good spell. The bloke was the world's leading wicket taker, pushed the record out from 307 to 356, and would have gone to 420 if he hadn't played for Packer. He averaged five wickets per test. Even four wickets per test is excellent for fast bowlers.

Road means no bounce. There was one bouncy track in Australia in those days - at Perth.

One more time: he played four tests in the Subcontinent because Australia did not tour there much. For three of those he was injured and wearing a back brace, so he could only bowl medium pace. Those are the FACTS.

What you call nostalgia I call knowledge and understanding of context, rather than just looking at raw numbers decades after an event and thinking you understand.

Richards, Imran and Botham all say he was the best fast bowler they faced. Are they nostalgic old men too, or is there a possibility that they know what they are talking about?

 

[Leo23]

Not one good spell. The bloke was the world's leading wicket taker, pushed the record out from 307 to 356, and would have gone to 420 if he hadn't played for Packer. He averaged five wickets per test. Even four wickets per test is excellent for fast bowlers.

Road means no bounce. There was one bouncy track in Australia in those days - at Perth.

One more time: he played four tests in the Subcontinent because Australia did not tour there much. For three of those he was injured and wearing a back brace, so he could only bowl medium pace. Those are the FACTS.

What you call nostalgia I call knowledge and understanding of context, rather than just looking at raw numbers decades after an event and thinking you understand.

Richards, Imran and Botham all say he was the best fast bowler they faced. Are they nostalgic old men too, or is there a possibility that they know what they are talking about?

so he would have taken 420 wickets if he wasn't a sell out and wouldn't have abandoned his country for packer

and he didn't set the world alight in the subcontinent because he was unfortunate that australia didn't play there much

stop making excuses and let's not hide behind ifs and buts

the fact is that he has a garbage record in asia and cannot be regarded as an atg because of that

 

[Leo23]

Close, between DK and Vivian Richards.

Lillee was a tearaway speed and menace merchant early on. Latterly, he became the prototype for the modern thinking fast bowler. Hadlee copied him slavishly, even putting his left wrist in the same position. Imran learned how to bowl leg-cutters from speaking to DK. He called him "number one in my book".

If there has been a braver and more determined cricketer than Dennis in the last thirty years, I didn't see him.

so determined and brave that he conveniently got "injured" when australia toured the subcontinent...

 

[Leo23]

Check the records - Australia did not tour India in those days.

Lillee went to Pakistan despite carrying an injury and played three tests with his back in a brace, bowling medium pace on Bunsens deliberately rigged to nullify him, on which which Imran hardly bowled either because it was a waste of his effort. As it was, Lillee did a good containing job in support of the spinners. He didn't take wickets but his economy rate was low.

He also played one test in SL where he was fit again, but it was another spin wicket so Yardley and Hogan did most of the bowling after Lillee knocked a couple off the top.

So in other words, not really a fair test or a meaningful sample size.

I saw him turn out for a County LO match at age 45. He was bowling military medium pace but still got lift, swing and cut both ways. He took two wickets for not many IIRC.

to rephrase what you said

he was not good enough to succeed in difficult bowling conditions

 

[shaz619]

Thanks for the kind words.

I rate Kapil , Imran, Waz and the rest of top Asian fast bowlers of that ERA as better than Lillee simply because of 2 reasons:
1. Played ten times more matches on Asian pitches than Lillee did and performed 100 times better.
2. Played in WI (top team of the 70s and 80s ) much more than Lillee did and did well.

Infact Kapils record in Aus is pretty good. All of this can be easily verified on Cricinfo (Now imagine how Kohli gets ridiculed for having a poor record in England)

Yet he ended up being voted as a top 5 cricketer of the 20th century. Its a reminder of the monopoly that the traditional power centers had in matters of cricketing history and how it was written(usually in their favor). They shaped opinions of many. And must say that they are extremely good at it. Sadly it was helped by many a distinguished Asian cricketers endorsing this line of thought even at the expense of undermining their own legacy and that of the collective Asian Cricket bloc. Classic colonial era situation.

But what concerns me is that even in this day and age where technology has decimated the barriers to sources of authentic information we still have the same old problems. We still have a large desi populace (And plenty amongst the Media Pundits) that holds any victory over the old world cricketing giants as a true measure of cricketing greatness. For all the progress that Indian Cricket has made we are at absolute ZERO when it comes to things like legacy and history . We still havent been able to shake off the Colonial hangover. We still look for a certificate of excellence from the old boys club of cricket.

You make some great points with regards to the heavy bias against asians at times and also the inferior complex. Anyhow am from the UK made but when looking up Lilee's record was in particular interested in how he had done in India, Pakistan and lanka; Robert argues that when he toured Pakistan he was carrying an injury, the lanka wicket was too dead beyond comprehension and that they just did not tour in that part of the world enough in those days before advocating that the small sample size is just not big enough in asia whilst highlighting performances in AUS when the wickets did not have much in it, what do you make of all that and do you know why they did not tour India/Pak enough in those days

 

[Tusker]

Not one good spell. The bloke was the world's leading wicket taker, pushed the record out from 307 to 356, and would have gone to 420 if he hadn't played for Packer. He averaged five wickets per test. Even four wickets per test is excellent for fast bowlers.

Road means no bounce. There was one bouncy track in Australia in those days - at Perth.

One more time: he played four tests in the Subcontinent because Australia did not tour there much. For three of those he was injured and wearing a back brace, so he could only bowl medium pace. Those are the FACTS.

What you call nostalgia I call knowledge and understanding of context, rather than just looking at raw numbers decades after an event and thinking you understand.

a certain Kapil Dev pushed that record even further ... and speaking of knowledge , context etc ... you have no understanding of what it is to play in places like Chennai, Mumbai, Ahmedabad, Kolkatta, Delhi , Colombo, Karachi etc .... the heat and humidity gets to you more than anything else. Dean Jones came within inches of death due to exhaustion by just batting. In such oppresive conditions Kapil Dev played 86 Test matches !!

And BTW here is what he did on the Melbourne "Road" bowling with a severe knee injury that reqd injections to the knee and defending 143:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/17045/scorecard/63281/Australia-vs-India-3rd-Test

I suppose Melbourne wasn't a road on that day?

 

[Robert]

a certain Kapil Dev pushed that record even further ... and speaking of knowledge , context etc ... you have no understanding of what it is to play in places like Chennai, Mumbai, Ahmedabad, Kolkatta, Delhi , Colombo, Karachi etc .... the heat and humidity gets to you more than anything else. Dean Jones came within inches of death due to exhaustion by just batting. In such oppresive conditions Kapil Dev played 86 Test matches !!

And BTW here is what he did on the Melbourne "Road" bowling with a severe knee injury that reqd injections to the knee and defending 143:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/17045/scorecard/63281/Australia-vs-India-3rd-Test

I suppose Melbourne wasn't a road on that day?

I remember that match. Jones was suffering from flu and asked Border if he could come off. Border put pressure on him to stay in. Deano became exhausted but "inches from death" is hyperbole.

Ok, Kapil knocked that Australian tail over. He was a good bowler. You can't tell much about the wicket from a scorecard, you need the match report.

Anyway I don't see what this has to do with Lillee, it seems like whattaboutery.

 

[shaz619]

I remember that match. Jones was suffering from flu and asked Border if he could come off. Border put pressure on him to stay in. Deano became exhausted but "inches from death" is hyperbole.

Ok, Kapil knocked that Australian tail over. He was a good bowler. You can't tell much about the wicket from a scorecard, you need the match report.

Anyway I don't see what this has to do with Lillee, it seems like whattaboutery.

Is that the match where Border said something like that's fine Deano we"ll get a bloke from Queensland because they're a lot tougher then that triggered the batsman who went onto get a century or double.

Anyhow I think there's enough material out there which advocates Lillee's greatness, the context you've provided also indicates that; statistics can create a very misleading picture at times.

 

[Robert]

Is that the match where Border said something like that's fine Deano we"ll get a bloke from Queensland because they're a lot tougher then that triggered the batsman who went onto get a century or double.

Yeah, "a real Australian" he said. IIRC that was the tied test.

Deano was a sort of Aussie KP - lavishly skilled but with a mouth on him which put noses out of joint in the power structure.

 

[shaz619]

Yeah, "a real Australian" he said. IIRC that was the tied test.

Deano was a sort of Aussie KP - lavishly skilled but with a mouth on him which put noses out of joint in the power structure.

Just found the scorecard:

http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/16783/scorecard/63438/India-vs-Australia-1st-Test

Deano made 210, what an innings. His career summary is not too bad either, did well in both formats.

 

[Bewal Express]

Did someone really compare Kepil Dev with Dennis Lillee?

 

[Haz95]

Did someone really compare Kepil Dev with Dennis Lillee?

The same type of someone who'd think Shikar Dhawan is a better batsman than Gordon Greenidge...

 

[Bewal Express]

The same type of someone who'd think Shikar Dhawan is a better batsman than Gordon Greenidge...

Kepil was a good swing bowler and certainly had his moments but after 1983, he was very average. Despite the attempted revisionism by some, Lillee terrorised batsman in the 70s and early 80's. His stats are amazing but even they dont tell the whole story.

 

[wrongun]

In the 70s- he was the king.

Even the Windies crowds loved Lillee.

They famously used to heckle Chappel (captain) back when WI had fast, hard decks & whenever he took Lillee out of the attack for too long they'd start to call "Hey Chapple, let 'de Tiger loose mon, let de Tiger loose!" They knew a great quick when they saw one.

He was the prototype modern fast bowler- super aggressive, fast, able to think batsman out & had all the skills + that x-factor that ,ade him both loved & feared.

Watch him win an epic battle with King Viv here, bowling off the last ball of the day (in swinger after a diet of out swingers)in the Boxing day test to drag Australia back into the match & then just charge off the field to show "I'll see you back out here tomorrow boys".
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFJVga17D8c/youtube]

Or the time he clean bowled Viv after sending him 4 straight bouncers in a domestic final at the WACAhttp://www.theage.com.au/news/sport/the-gillette-cup-final-mcg-1977/2005/12/09/1134086810549.html
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t51RjEpw8E0/youtube]

 

[Robert]

In the 70s- he was the king.

Even the Windies crowds loved Lillee.

They famously used to heckle Chappel (captain) back when WI had fast, hard decks & whenever he took Lillee out of the attack for too long they'd start to call "Hey Chapple, let 'de Tiger loose mon, let de Tiger loose!" They knew a great quick when they saw one.

That's a wonderful story, of the type that makes cricket so rich and rewarding.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Kepil was a good swing bowler and certainly had his moments but after 1983, he was very average. Despite the attempted revisionism by some, Lillee terrorised batsman in the 70s and early 80's. His stats are amazing but even they dont tell the whole story.

Totally agree on Lillee.Stats just don't tell how great he really was .Arguably none was more complete.Great post on Lillee but disagree on Kapil see his bowling in 1992 and 1986.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

In the 70s- he was the king.

Even the Windies crowds loved Lillee.

They famously used to heckle Chappel (captain) back when WI had fast, hard decks & whenever he took Lillee out of the attack for too long they'd start to call "Hey Chapple, let 'de Tiger loose mon, let de Tiger loose!" They knew a great quick when they saw one.

He was the prototype modern fast bowler- super aggressive, fast, able to think batsman out & had all the skills + that x-factor that ,ade him both loved & feared.

Watch him win an epic battle with King Viv here, bowling off the last ball of the day (in swinger after a diet of out swingers)in the Boxing day test to drag Australia back into the match & then just charge off the field to show "I'll see you back out here tomorrow boys".
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFJVga17D8c/youtube]

Or the time he clean bowled Viv after sending him 4 straight bouncers in a domestic final at the WACAhttp://www.theage.com.au/news/sport/the-gillette-cup-final-mcg-1977/2005/12/09/1134086810549.html
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t51RjEpw8E0/youtube]

Super post. describes greatness of Lillee perfectly.Viv v Lillee was the ultimate battle .One of the best post on the great fast bolwer on this blog.well done.

 

[ToeCrusher2]

Totally agree on Lillee.Stats just don't tell how great he really was .Arguably none was more complete.Great post on Lillee but disagree on Kapil see his bowling in 1992 and 1986.

If stats don't tell how great a player is then why do you waste so much time on statistical analysis, you post walls and walls of text analyzing stats and then when the stats don't suit your agenda, you come up with ** like stats don't tell how great he was, lol

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Not one good spell. The bloke was the world's leading wicket taker, pushed the record out from 307 to 356, and would have gone to 420 if he hadn't played for Packer. He averaged five wickets per test. Even four wickets per test is excellent for fast bowlers.

Road means no bounce. There was one bouncy track in Australia in those days - at Perth.

One more time: he played four tests in the Subcontinent because Australia did not tour there much. For three of those he was injured and wearing a back brace, so he could only bowl medium pace. Those are the FACTS.

What you call nostalgia I call knowledge and understanding of context, rather than just looking at raw numbers decades after an event and thinking you understand.

Richards, Imran and Botham all say he was the best fast bowler they faced. Are they nostalgic old men too, or is there a possibility that they know what they are talking about?

Absolutely true.Lille bowled like a king on the flattest of tracks like Oval and Melbourne.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Lillee was a brilliant fast bowler, perhaps the greatest ever. His action was nearly perfect and he is the one competitive bowlers to play the game.

Congrats for such a great post doing justice to him unlike most fans here.Lillee was in the class of Marshall,Wasim or Mcgrath if not better.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

without a doubt , one of greatest cricketers ever , If not for Lillee Genuine fast bowling wouldnt have been same.

Imran and Windies Quartet both rate him as idol

great post.totally agree

 

[Harsh Thakor]

Close, between DK and Vivian Richards.

Lillee was a tearaway speed and menace merchant early on. Latterly, he became the prototype for the modern thinking fast bowler. Hadlee copied him slavishly, even putting his left wrist in the same position. Imran learned how to bowl leg-cutters from speaking to DK. He called him "number one in my book".

If there has been a braver and more determined cricketer than Dennis in the last thirty years, I didn't see him.

absolutely correct.Epitome of determination and agression personified.

 

[Harsh Thakor]

It would have been interesting to see how he fared against the pacers of his own team. When Viv Richards faced Lillee and Thomson at their prime in 1975-76, neither he, nor most of his West Indian batting mates had an answer to Lillee and Thomson. West Indies were pulverised 5-1 in the test series.

Most lethal pace bowling pair ever in terms of sheer speed and bounce.

 

[squarecut]

After Lillee retired, he gave back to cricket by becoming a pace bowling coach. And he is arguably the best pace bowling coach going around.

 

[Robert]

Absolutely true.Lille bowled like a king on the flattest of tracks like Oval and Melbourne.

Yep, the Oval was a super flat deck in the mid seventies. It has changed a lot. In the fifties a Bunsen for Laker and Lock, in the eighties nice and bouncy with good carry, but true in bounce, unlike the Headingley horror deck in those days - uneven bounce, huge lateral movement, usually swing too!

 

[Tusker]

I remember that match. Jones was suffering from flu and asked Border if he could come off. Border put pressure on him to stay in. Deano became exhausted but "inches from death" is hyperbole.

It most certainly is not hyperbole.

Ok, Kapil knocked that Australian tail over. He was a good bowler. You can't tell much about the wicket from a scorecard, you need the match report.

Anyway I don't see what this has to do with Lillee, it seems like whattaboutery.

The point is there are a lot more flat wickets in Asia and Kapil played on them constantly throughout his career. Infact he played more in those oppresive conditions than Lille's entire career tally of 70 tests.

 

[Robert]

It most certainly is not hyperbole.

He was dehydrated and went to hospital and was put on a saline drip. Hardly "inches from death".

 

[wrongun]

He was dehydrated and went to hospital and was put on a saline drip. Hardly "inches from death".

That match & all the stories within it have naturally been reported (& still are) extensively in Oz at the time & ever since. He had severe dehydration- which actually is life threatening. At the severe end- where all of Deano's symptoms place him at- organ failure (kidney most likely) is a documented risk.

Just to place it in perspective, even the Indian keeper spent 1.5 hours off the ground due to heat stress. Jones lost 7kg (18lb?) in one day, passed out after leaving the field & woke up the next day in hospital.

Deano himself has said he was never the same afterward. He still gets the shakes and anxiety 30 years later whenever the heat climbs or if he goes to sleep and it gets hot & he wakes in a sweat.

 

[squarecut]

To say that Dean Jones was inches from death is an example of sensation seeking reporting.

 

[Tusker]

He was dehydrated and went to hospital and was put on a saline drip. Hardly "inches from death".

To say that Dean Jones was inches from death is an example of sensation seeking reporting.

You should visit Chennai once in your lifetime (I suggest winter time for your own well being) to see what the fuss is all about.