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Difference between Pakistan and India: Not just a gulf but a yawning chasm

Gullycricket

Gullycricket

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This is going to be a long post but its the bitter truth. Dont know where to start.
What i saw today opened my eyes.I had some belief in this team but not now.I wanted to like this team especially the CT truimp but this is the harsh reality.I saw our so called clutch player getting out to a trundler who even Kohli didn't expect would give him a wicket.Our dasher Fakhar looked so bad against quality spin was embarrassing to watch.Our so called seniors are pathetic and giving wickets to part time bowlers.Our so called superstar bowlers like Hasan,Wahab keep bowling short to Rohit in-spite of it being his strong zone.I saw our best fielder Shadab smile shamelessly when Kohli outran him for a double.We hype nobodies like Faheem equal to Pandya.Rohit's innings was so methodical and Indian batting as a whole was so calculative but when i look at us we dont know what to do.I dont know what planning we come with. Our ex players are happy with being called legends and scoring brownie points over each other.Nobody interested in helping the team.We though PSL will change things but no.Truth to be told apart from Babar and Amir nobody should be part of the team for rebuilding.
I dont have much hope as these Sauds,Saads,Farhans will come next and we will be moaning about them in 2023 WC.Long gone are days of Imran Khan.His approach worked in 1992 but will never again work because this is much professional sport now.Please invest in our next generation as its so painful to see.We may see results 20 years from now but that wil be worth it:dw
 
if Pakistan couldn't win when India was weak, how can they when they are strong and getting stronger?
 
Fear of losing. Only one team has it and that is Pakistan and it explains why we have lost to India even when we had good players
 
As long as its gullible fans continue to believe that passion/jazba/body language/debuting rookie 19 years old will make any difference in the 21st century.
 
It will continue because the mentality won’t change, and the mentality won’t change because, especially outside cricket, it’s a pervasive trait among Pakistanis. Pakistanis are more superstitious, looking for short cuts, utterly unprofessional and weak minded insecure people. If you don’t believe in hard work, training, and science, then you will produce the sort of unpredictable and lopsided performances that we see with the Pakistan Cricket Team. Even on this forum from supposedly western based Pakistani supporters, the constant need to draw similarities between Pakistan cricket team of today and the 92 team is quite nauseating. It’s a team stuck in history and a nation fearful of the future.

It’s pathetic and so yes, today’s reality will continue to rear its ugly head.
 
When the fans are still clinging to what imran khan did, there is not real doubt that the unprofessional attitude has been rooted deeply into the psyche everywhere.

The times today calls for professional touch, and yet the whole 'we are unpredictable' tag is so dear to people from pak, it is baffling tbh.
 
Judging by the rate at which our cricket declining, I think this misery could end in 2021 when we fail to qualify for WC23. Also, we would have received the due humiliations at T20 WC in 2020 & 2021 & also the upcoming test championship.
 
Till we don't produce cricketers who can compete with the world.

Our domestic system needs a huge overhaul. Support the MD of Pcb in achieving this.

An ind-PK game can't the first pressure encounter for these cricketers. Need a competitive domestic environment where players are used to such pressure games + level of cricket.

Jo marzi jisse marzi select karo nothing will change at the moment. The changes at root level from Wasim Khan will take 4-5 years but it will get us there.
 
Chokli said:
Chakli, I am Chokli. And it'll continue forever.
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For once something we can both agree on.

Been watching Cricket for over 20 years and I think after 2015 I gave up on being a die hard fan.

Pakistan just doesn't have the skill level. We won't win any time in the future against India. They are just well ahead in terms of talent in all aspects.

I find it quite amusing scrolling through the forum to see threads like "Match ka Mujrim", "Sarfraz should Resign", etc. I used to be there too, looking for a reason or a player to blame.

The truth is Pakistan is not good enough! Enjoy the one off flukes (2017 CT Final) but accept the weak Pakistan team.

But one thing I will give Pakistan is their fans. They never give up on them always hope for the impossible. You guys have big hearts, 20+ years of heart breaks took a toll on me and I moved on to other sports but I will still watch Pakistan cricket from time to time (I just don't care about them wining though). Couldn't be happier!
 
Gulf is mostly in their minds and team selections...

They lost the match when they decided to bat first on a belter, especially given the results so far in the tournament batting second.

This is exactly what happens when you have low IQ individuals at the helm in PCB...e.g. Inzi...
 
Till Pakistan doesn't start treating this as just like any other game .. India now does that but Pakistan with the Coach saying things like you can become heroes tomorrow and the Prime Minister tweeting match tips puts a lot of pressure on the team ..
 
I don't really see it as alarming, the gap has been there for a long time now, and this Pakistan side will struggle to beat Bangladesh, India is in a different class. I don't see much changing unless Pakistan can get their domestic game sorted out. I don't know what sort of pitches or balls they use in Pakistan, but none of them have a clue what to do with a new ball.

The batting has never been great to be honest, but it's been made to look a lot worse with the selection of half cooked batsmen like Malik, Asif and Sarfraz in the middle order.
 
Its the decisions at the top in PCB staring from a decade that has caused such a gulf.
 
What rubbish , yes there is a gap and that is due to the fact that half their team consists of the best players they have ever had, ATG status.

Pakistan on the other hand is carrying around old shoaib averaging 9 in UK after 20 years.

As for this game, Pak would ripped india apart if they had batted first and were defending on this pitch second. Well deserved win for india in the end.
 
chinaman00 said:
It will continue because the mentality won’t change, and the mentality won’t change because, especially outside cricket, it’s a pervasive trait among Pakistanis. Pakistanis are more superstitious, looking for short cuts, utterly unprofessional and weak minded insecure people. If you don’t believe in hard work, training, and science, then you will produce the sort of unpredictable and lopsided performances that we see with the Pakistan Cricket Team. Even on this forum from supposedly western based Pakistani supporters, the constant need to draw similarities between Pakistan cricket team of today and the 92 team is quite nauseating. It’s a team stuck in history and a nation fearful of the future.

It’s pathetic and so yes, today’s reality will continue to rear its ugly head.
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Some interesting points in this post. A lot of emotions as well in the post but some of the points need to be pondered upon by the PM.
[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] your thoughts?
 
Will continue for eternity way things are going. We are non serious. Apne aap k sath mazak karte hai ham log. With sifaariish, pathetic system, no performance audit. this will keep on happening.
 
OmaIR1 said:
For once something we can both agree on.

Been watching Cricket for over 20 years and I think after 2015 I gave up on being a die hard fan.

Pakistan just doesn't have the skill level. We won't win any time in the future against India. They are just well ahead in terms of talent in all aspects.

I find it quite amusing scrolling through the forum to see threads like "Match ka Mujrim", "Sarfraz should Resign", etc. I used to be there too, looking for a reason or a player to blame.

The truth is Pakistan is not good enough! Enjoy the one off flukes (2017 CT Final) but accept the weak Pakistan team.

But one thing I will give Pakistan is their fans. They never give up on them always hope for the impossible. You guys have big hearts, 20+ years of heart breaks took a toll on me and I moved on to other sports but I will still watch Pakistan cricket from time to time (I just don't care about them wining though). Couldn't be happier!
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Well said.

I am afraid that soon cricket will end up like hockey if we keep lacking behind. MD Wasim Khan is trying his best but former cricketers and dinosaurs from the PCB are being very stubborn.

Pak needs to evolve its domestic and coaching and it won't happen in one day. Even after the proposed changes it will take 5-7 years to produce cricketers who can compete with the world.
 
Chill dude. Its a game of cricket. Winning or losing is a part of the game.

There are more important things in life.
 
nosundries said:
Till Pakistan doesn't start treating this as just like any other game .. India now does that but Pakistan with the Coach saying things like you can become heroes tomorrow and the Prime Minister tweeting match tips puts a lot of pressure on the team ..
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I used to believe that, but we keep losing like this against the top 4.

It just comes down to the fact that Pakistan is not good enough. It doesn't have the skill levels to compete with the top 4 on a regular basis.
 
The gap has been there for few years now. The one champions trophy win masked it for couple of years. Good thing they don't play India more often. This reality will be more and more clear.

I also think these players will get better if they play India more often. Obvious gap in skills is a problem, but the bigger problem is attitude and approach
 
Zhasan said:
Gulf is mostly in their minds and team selections...

They lost the match when they decided to bat first on a belter, especially given the results so far in the tournament batting second.

This is exactly what happens when you have low IQ individuals at the helm in PCB...e.g. Inzi...
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When you lose majority of your matches to top teams you have to look back and think what is it that you are doing is wrong, blaming the loss on decision to bowl first is a easy cop out, good teams don't care if they bat or ball first they figure out how to win either way. The whole cricket setup in Pakistan is stuck in neutral, we keep hearing how domestic is bad for the last 15 years yet nothing has been done about it. Worst thing about it all is that nothing will change after this WC, coach, captain and CS will be replaced by someone else whose had that job before and things will just repeat.
 
Sycamore said:
What rubbish , yes there is a gap and that is due to the fact that half their team consists of the best players they have ever had, ATG status.

Pakistan on the other hand is carrying around old shoaib averaging 9 in UK after 20 years.

As for this game, Pak would ripped india apart if they had batted first and were defending on this pitch second. Well deserved win for india in the end.
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Think you are kidding.Our fielders dont know which end to throw the ball and lack common sense.I mean they tweaked something to produce those ATG players and just look at players like Pant,Shaw,Gill who are next in line while as what are we doing...Hoping for batting first and getting lucky on no balls etc
 
aqeelPK said:
Malala has a better chance than these girls we fielded today.
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I wouldn't blame them to be honest as someone mentioned teams who relied heavily on talent in the past like SL, Pakistan and WI are the teams which are struggling now.

Teams like England, India and Australia who have a professional set up are surfing ahead of others.

It's not the fault of the players Pakistani system as a whole needs to be made professional. Even the earlier Pakistani and WI greats were refined by English system. I think people like babar/imam/amir and Shaheen who are future of Pakistan need to spend 2-3 seasons playing county cricket and develop.

The system can only change when the economy changes. It's all interlinked with each other. Terrorism, economy, mindset, cricketing system, corruption, nepotism etc are all interlinked with each other one way or the other.
 
Until Pakistan can find some players capable of competing on the same pitch. This was a rotten side, most of us knew it already. Previous losses were much harder to take as Pakistan had superior teams in the past.

But this one stunk the tournament out, let's be honest.
 
The system the Indians have for Cricket is brilliant and in which they pay high dividends to First Class cricket. Pakistan's on the other hand is atrocious and needs a massive revamp. Also unfortunately we have alot of old dinosaurs in the hierarchy which needs to change. Wasim Khan has a MASSIVE task ahead of him. I hope to god he pulls through.
 
Have no hope for the next few years as the paths of the two teams will continue to diverge given the available talent on either side. Our only hope will be if we unearth some naturally gifted players out of nowhere (we have in the past) but that too will be a temporary fix. India's dominance over Pakistan is not just that of talent but of systematic long term planning and vision and with the sort of investment they have made in the game it is highly likely that they will dominate not just Pakistan but world cricket for some time.
 
big_gamer007 said:
I wouldn't blame them to be honest as someone mentioned teams who relied heavily on talent in the past like SL, Pakistan and WI are the teams which are struggling now.

Teams like England, India and Australia who have a professional set up are surfing ahead of others.

It's not the fault of the players Pakistani system as a whole needs to be made professional. Even the earlier Pakistani and WI greats were refined by English system. I think people like babar/imam/amir and Shaheen who are future of Pakistan need to spend 2-3 seasons playing county cricket and develop.

The system can only change when the economy changes. It's all interlinked with each other. Terrorism, economy, mindset, cricketing system, corruption, nepotism etc are all interlinked with each other one way or the other.
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tbh, Pakistanis do not expect their team to win anymore, they are fully aware of everything. All they want is them to put up a fight no matter they win or lose, just give your 100%. Guess what, we end up watching our players yawning during critical stages of matches, most of them areoften not at ground mentally during the match.
 
The gap between India and Pakistan is no longer a gulf but a yawning chasm. The bitter truth is never in our history have India outgunned us every department like they do now.

We’re deluding ourselves thinking this is merely a matter of putting the wrong XI out on the field or replacing one rookie (Hasnain/Shaheen) with another (Rauf). We’re also deluding ourselves thinking we only needed a more “aggressive mindset” or “fearless cricket” whatever these cliches mean.

The truth is after the turmoil of the 1990s, India professionalised every aspect of their cricketing system while Pakistan remained stuck in the past. India have the advantage of a fanatical 1bn+ television market but the investment has been made where it counts the MOST – in the grassroots and in Ranji Trophy, whereas we expect talent to come down from the sky and NEGLECT our grassroots.

It’s not sexy to talk about domestic pitches, balls and investing in coaching programmes, and MUCH easier to talk about jazba, cornered tigers, passion because this reflects Pakistani society at large. A demand for messiahs and quick fixes – nobody bothers to build institutions and systems. PSL is example of this new saviour we’ve hyped up. Everything is for short term whilst India built for long term.

Most of these Indian batsmen when they debut have got solid fundamentals and are READY to hit the ground running by the time they reach the international stage. The strength in depth is such that you’ve domestic batsmen with over a dozen FC hundreds and 50+ averages sitting on bench. Karun Nair scored 300 vs England yet he doesn’t get a game ! Top youngsters like Shaw, Pant and Gill don’t even feature. That then forces the incumbent Indian batsmen to not get lazy. Whereas Pakistan always rely on star individuals than a systemic approach to success - hence we still have fans asking for Umar Akmal’s 100th recall because he is “talent” and “matchwinner”.

What about the bowling ? For decades we snickered at Indian medium pacers. We mocked the MRF Pace Academy and other initiatives. Nobody’s laughing now as Jasprit Bumrah has become #1 ranked bowler. Bhuvi Kumar gave a masterclass to present the seam and demonstration of how to bowl with the new ball. Whereas our youngsters don’t know the basics or how to work a batsman out.

Let’s not even discuss the fielding and fitness levels. One team demands high standards and professionalism. The other sees captain carry pot belly.

This changes when we demand minimum standards of players and administrators. Enough of these cheap cliches about 1992 and unpredictability. If you can’t catch dollies then your six hitting ability is irrelevant. If you don’t bother maintaining a healthy diet – get lost. If you don’t want to work hard on your game and wish to rest on your past performances – then goodbye. THAT’S how we become consistent – through system building and accountability. India have shown us the way.
 
Gullycricket said:
Think you are kidding.Our fielders dont know which end to throw the ball and lack common sense.I mean they tweaked something to produce those ATG players and just look at players like Pant,Shaw,Gill who are next in line while as what are we doing...Hoping for batting first and getting lucky on no balls etc
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Not even sharma, kohli, pant or shaw will win you 330+ chase when the pitch starts behaving as it did 2nd innings, if you don't understand that then you need to study the game better.

Agreed with the fielding, it has been a joke this world cup, maybe the worst in years. As for the tweaking, they poured money, time and effort into domestic cricket and are now reaping the rewards of a professional setup. Amir wasn't even in WC squad , and then selected last minute while chicken pox ridden, its a miracle pakistan is still 40-60 vs india.
 
Pakistan needs to stop playing in UAE. Confrontation with BCCI should end & bilateral tours with India need to restore.
 
Malik, hafeez and Wahab were only brought back for the World Cup
Normally Pakistani are a very professional outfit
 
In terms of skill, talent there is no huge gulf. Pakistan team has poor selection, terrible fitness and a weak captain. A few changes are needed and things will improve quickly. You dont beat the best team England if you are a rubbish outfit.
 
The only good that can come out of this WC debacle is if it gives full license to Wasim Khan to tear up our shambolic domestic system and implement his reforms.
 
It took England 4 years to do a complete turn around so with right steps you never know.
 
Wasim Khan joined the PCB at the right time. He has got to be allowed to implement his plans
 
You are absolutely correct and hit the nail on the head. Most Pakistanis I know are very kind and polite people, yet in the real world they all do the same thing: tend to follow/copy each other, take shortcuts in career/education choices and have an unwilling to change mindset. This is reflected in our cricket team.
The fact that the chief selector was one of the most unprofessional cricketers of all time and the captain who looks like a substitute math teacher sums it up. Absolutely nothing will change unless we acknowledge the shortcomings
 
Completely agree
Hopefully Wasim khan and aamer sohail turns them into a proper outfit with proper drills and all the rights things done right such as not dropping dollies and aiming for the wickets when throwing
 
Fitness is key also, they need to realise, Pak will be jack, having a poor world cup will only allow change. Change will come...
 
Markhor said:
The gap between India and Pakistan is no longer a gulf but a yawning chasm. The bitter truth is never in our history have India outgunned us every department like they do now.

We’re deluding ourselves thinking this is merely a matter of putting the wrong XI out on the field or replacing one rookie (Hasnain/Shaheen) with another (Rauf). We’re also deluding ourselves thinking we only needed a more “aggressive mindset” or “fearless cricket” whatever these cliches mean.

The truth is after the turmoil of the 1990s, India professionalised every aspect of their cricketing system while Pakistan remained stuck in the past. India have the advantage of a fanatical 1bn+ television market but the investment has been made where it counts the MOST – in the grassroots and in Ranji Trophy, whereas we expect talent to come down from the sky and NEGLECT our grassroots.

It’s not sexy to talk about domestic pitches, balls and investing in coaching programmes, and MUCH easier to talk about jazba, cornered tigers, passion because this reflects Pakistani society at large. A demand for messiahs and quick fixes – nobody bothers to build institutions and systems. PSL is example of this new saviour we’ve hyped up. Everything is for short term whilst India built for long term.

Most of these Indian batsmen when they debut have got solid fundamentals and are READY to hit the ground running by the time they reach the international stage. The strength in depth is such that you’ve domestic batsmen with over a dozen FC hundreds and 50+ averages sitting on bench. Karun Nair scored 300 vs England yet he doesn’t get a game ! Top youngsters like Shaw, Pant and Gill don’t even feature. That then forces the incumbent Indian batsmen to not get lazy. Whereas Pakistan always rely on star individuals than a systemic approach to success - hence we still have fans asking for Umar Akmal’s 100th recall because he is “talent” and “matchwinner”.

What about the bowling ? For decades we snickered at Indian medium pacers. We mocked the MRF Pace Academy and other initiatives. Nobody’s laughing now as Jasprit Bumrah has become #1 ranked bowler. Bhuvi Kumar gave a masterclass to present the seam and demonstration of how to bowl with the new ball. Whereas our youngsters don’t know the basics or how to work a batsman out.

Let’s not even discuss the fielding and fitness levels. One team demands high standards and professionalism. The other sees captain carry pot belly.

This changes when we demand minimum standards of players and administrators. Enough of these cheap cliches about 1992 and unpredictability. If you can’t catch dollies then your six hitting ability is irrelevant. If you don’t bother maintaining a healthy diet – get lost. If you don’t want to work hard on your game and wish to rest on your past performances – then goodbye. THAT’S how we become consistent – through system building and accountability. India have shown us the way.
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Great post. Easily one of the best posts I have read in a long while. But sadly there is no solution, so we have to accept this mediocrity.
 
Massive overhaul is required. First the system should be stable not ad-hoc. Shakeel Sheikhs who was a petty journalist of Jang in 90s is now running regional association using the corrupt practices of the board.

You have chief selector who has backed players [like Shoaib Malik with a 12 average in UK] without any backlash. Don't expect the media or the shameless ex-players like Ramiz Raja to say something. They have been protective of selection decisions which have done us now like somany times. Since Inzamam is part of the setup in 2004 our cricket has only gone down with a few pathetic losers benefiting while many careers destroyed.
 
Pick the best Xi players in the country and put those players in the best position to succeed and you will win.
 
Allah swt says until you dont help urself i cant help you

When u dont do the basics right on the field, when u dont invest money in your cricketing structure when you dont pick players on merit what do you expect?
 
And Mickey Arthur has done absolute jack. Complete liar.

He came in in 2017 and fluked the CT. Only to absolutely get annihilated in all of the ODIs to follow.

He claims that we try to play a modern, attacking brand of cricket, yet all of the batsmen bar Fakhar are accumulators who regularly go at a 80 strike rate.

He claims that fitness and fielding is emphasized, yet somehow there are multiple overweight players in the World Cup squad. Fielding has regressed alarmingly.

He claims that he is bringing professionalism and accountability, yet drops a performer like Rizwan for a non-performing "senior" like Malik. Hafeez and the Akmals were dropped for good only to worm their way back in through media hype.

Azhar Mahmood and Grant Flower have done absolutely jack for the batting and bowling.

First things first, fix the PCB. Get people to actually hire the right people with credentials. Not just foreigners who are all talk. Then these people should fix the cricketing structure.

Talent and passion is there.

But it will take for Pakistan to be good again. Because no matter how good the youngsters are, they need experience.

This Pakistan team could very well be more consistent and in the Top 4 (all formats) in the coming years.

But no "Golden Era" is coming unless the mentioned changes are made.
 
[MENTION=147429]Chokli[/MENTION]

It'll go on for as long as it takes until Pakistan sort out the grassroots system.

Watch people like Shoaib Akhtar now claim we lost due to lack of jazba and aggression. But if you can't even do the basics like present an upright goddamn seam then clearly there's deeper issues than this cliched nonsense.

India has improved their grassroots system immeasurably while we hark back to the past. If we keep deluding ourselves that all we need is a better team combination or a new batting coach or "fearless cricket" we will keep crying.
 
Last edited:
Markhor said:
The gap between India and Pakistan is no longer a gulf but a yawning chasm. The bitter truth is never in our history have India outgunned us every department like they do now.

We’re deluding ourselves thinking this is merely a matter of putting the wrong XI out on the field or replacing one rookie (Hasnain/Shaheen) with another (Rauf). We’re also deluding ourselves thinking we only needed a more “aggressive mindset” or “fearless cricket” whatever these cliches mean.

The truth is after the turmoil of the 1990s, India professionalised every aspect of their cricketing system while Pakistan remained stuck in the past. India have the advantage of a fanatical 1bn+ television market but the investment has been made where it counts the MOST – in the grassroots and in Ranji Trophy, whereas we expect talent to come down from the sky and NEGLECT our grassroots.

It’s not sexy to talk about domestic pitches, balls and investing in coaching programmes, and MUCH easier to talk about jazba, cornered tigers, passion because this reflects Pakistani society at large. A demand for messiahs and quick fixes – nobody bothers to build institutions and systems. PSL is example of this new saviour we’ve hyped up. Everything is for short term whilst India built for long term.

Most of these Indian batsmen when they debut have got solid fundamentals and are READY to hit the ground running by the time they reach the international stage. The strength in depth is such that you’ve domestic batsmen with over a dozen FC hundreds and 50+ averages sitting on bench. Karun Nair scored 300 vs England yet he doesn’t get a game ! Top youngsters like Shaw, Pant and Gill don’t even feature. That then forces the incumbent Indian batsmen to not get lazy. Whereas Pakistan always rely on star individuals than a systemic approach to success - hence we still have fans asking for Umar Akmal’s 100th recall because he is “talent” and “matchwinner”.

What about the bowling ? For decades we snickered at Indian medium pacers. We mocked the MRF Pace Academy and other initiatives. Nobody’s laughing now as Jasprit Bumrah has become #1 ranked bowler. Bhuvi Kumar gave a masterclass to present the seam and demonstration of how to bowl with the new ball. Whereas our youngsters don’t know the basics or how to work a batsman out.

Let’s not even discuss the fielding and fitness levels. One team demands high standards and professionalism. The other sees captain carry pot belly.

This changes when we demand minimum standards of players and administrators. Enough of these cheap cliches about 1992 and unpredictability. If you can’t catch dollies then your six hitting ability is irrelevant. If you don’t bother maintaining a healthy diet – get lost. If you don’t want to work hard on your game and wish to rest on your past performances – then goodbye. THAT’S how we become consistent – through system building and accountability. India have shown us the way.
Click to expand...

Well said, POTW contender.
 
Bewal Express said:
Great post. Easily one of the best posts I have read in a long while. But sadly there is no solution, so we have to accept this mediocrity.
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We don't, but we will. Pakistan cricket is a reflection of the rest of the country, lack of cohesive purpose beyond skimming some money on a personal level. As long as there's a gravy train for the individuals then we'll not get any movement for a better product.
 
They are just head and soldiers above us in every part of the game. There players are far better then ours moreover no matter what team we had put out the result would have been the same. Would have made no difference had we batted first either for those who may be questioning the decision. We can't give what we don't have that is quality. We better do something fast otherwise India will dominate us for the next 10 years. At the moment India are like Liverpool in Football threatening to rule Cricket for the next ten years. We like Man Utd are a spent force just talking but no action.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
We don't, but we will. Pakistan cricket is a reflection of the rest of the country, lack of cohesive purpose beyond skimming some money on a personal level. As long as there's a gravy train for the individuals then we'll not get any movement for a better product.
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Structure take years if not decades to build. We don't have the patience or desire to work hard, and so we will talk for a while and then go back to our default setting.
 
Markhor said:
The gap between India and Pakistan is no longer a gulf but a yawning chasm. The bitter truth is never in our history have India outgunned us every department like they do now.

We’re deluding ourselves thinking this is merely a matter of putting the wrong XI out on the field or replacing one rookie (Hasnain/Shaheen) with another (Rauf). We’re also deluding ourselves thinking we only needed a more “aggressive mindset” or “fearless cricket” whatever these cliches mean.

The truth is after the turmoil of the 1990s, India professionalised every aspect of their cricketing system while Pakistan remained stuck in the past. India have the advantage of a fanatical 1bn+ television market but the investment has been made where it counts the MOST – in the grassroots and in Ranji Trophy, whereas we expect talent to come down from the sky and NEGLECT our grassroots.

It’s not sexy to talk about domestic pitches, balls and investing in coaching programmes, and MUCH easier to talk about jazba, cornered tigers, passion because this reflects Pakistani society at large. A demand for messiahs and quick fixes – nobody bothers to build institutions and systems. PSL is example of this new saviour we’ve hyped up. Everything is for short term whilst India built for long term.

Most of these Indian batsmen when they debut have got solid fundamentals and are READY to hit the ground running by the time they reach the international stage. The strength in depth is such that you’ve domestic batsmen with over a dozen FC hundreds and 50+ averages sitting on bench. Karun Nair scored 300 vs England yet he doesn’t get a game ! Top youngsters like Shaw, Pant and Gill don’t even feature. That then forces the incumbent Indian batsmen to not get lazy. Whereas Pakistan always rely on star individuals than a systemic approach to success - hence we still have fans asking for Umar Akmal’s 100th recall because he is “talent” and “matchwinner”.

What about the bowling ? For decades we snickered at Indian medium pacers. We mocked the MRF Pace Academy and other initiatives. Nobody’s laughing now as Jasprit Bumrah has become #1 ranked bowler. Bhuvi Kumar gave a masterclass to present the seam and demonstration of how to bowl with the new ball. Whereas our youngsters don’t know the basics or how to work a batsman out.

Let’s not even discuss the fielding and fitness levels. One team demands high standards and professionalism. The other sees captain carry pot belly.

This changes when we demand minimum standards of players and administrators. Enough of these cheap cliches about 1992 and unpredictability. If you can’t catch dollies then your six hitting ability is irrelevant. If you don’t bother maintaining a healthy diet – get lost. If you don’t want to work hard on your game and wish to rest on your past performances – then goodbye. THAT’S how we become consistent – through system building and accountability. India have shown us the way.
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Terrorism and the economic turmoil from 2004 onwards have also played a huge role in Pakistan’s demise. But a good post nevertheless 👍🏼
 
Markhor said:
The gap between India and Pakistan is no longer a gulf but a yawning chasm. The bitter truth is never in our history have India outgunned us every department like they do now.

We’re deluding ourselves thinking this is merely a matter of putting the wrong XI out on the field or replacing one rookie (Hasnain/Shaheen) with another (Rauf). We’re also deluding ourselves thinking we only needed a more “aggressive mindset” or “fearless cricket” whatever these cliches mean.

The truth is after the turmoil of the 1990s, India professionalised every aspect of their cricketing system while Pakistan remained stuck in the past. India have the advantage of a fanatical 1bn+ television market but the investment has been made where it counts the MOST – in the grassroots and in Ranji Trophy, whereas we expect talent to come down from the sky and NEGLECT our grassroots.

It’s not sexy to talk about domestic pitches, balls and investing in coaching programmes, and MUCH easier to talk about jazba, cornered tigers, passion because this reflects Pakistani society at large. A demand for messiahs and quick fixes – nobody bothers to build institutions and systems. PSL is example of this new saviour we’ve hyped up. Everything is for short term whilst India built for long term.

Most of these Indian batsmen when they debut have got solid fundamentals and are READY to hit the ground running by the time they reach the international stage. The strength in depth is such that you’ve domestic batsmen with over a dozen FC hundreds and 50+ averages sitting on bench. Karun Nair scored 300 vs England yet he doesn’t get a game ! Top youngsters like Shaw, Pant and Gill don’t even feature. That then forces the incumbent Indian batsmen to not get lazy. Whereas Pakistan always rely on star individuals than a systemic approach to success - hence we still have fans asking for Umar Akmal’s 100th recall because he is “talent” and “matchwinner”.

What about the bowling ? For decades we snickered at Indian medium pacers. We mocked the MRF Pace Academy and other initiatives. Nobody’s laughing now as Jasprit Bumrah has become #1 ranked bowler. Bhuvi Kumar gave a masterclass to present the seam and demonstration of how to bowl with the new ball. Whereas our youngsters don’t know the basics or how to work a batsman out.

Let’s not even discuss the fielding and fitness levels. One team demands high standards and professionalism. The other sees captain carry pot belly.

This changes when we demand minimum standards of players and administrators. Enough of these cheap cliches about 1992 and unpredictability. If you can’t catch dollies then your six hitting ability is irrelevant. If you don’t bother maintaining a healthy diet – get lost. If you don’t want to work hard on your game and wish to rest on your past performances – then goodbye. THAT’S how we become consistent – through system building and accountability. India have shown us the way.
Click to expand...

The emotion, anger, frustration, care, passion oozing out in this post. Respect from a rival fan.
 
Nasser Hussain summarized it very bluntly ie men of India vs boys from Pakistan. But he kept emphasizing on Pakistan having to back youth going forward and the only players he would keep from the Pakistani team were Imam, Fakhar and Babar
 
Markhor said:
The gap between India and Pakistan is no longer a gulf but a yawning chasm. The bitter truth is never in our history have India outgunned us every department like they do now.

We’re deluding ourselves thinking this is merely a matter of putting the wrong XI out on the field or replacing one rookie (Hasnain/Shaheen) with another (Rauf). We’re also deluding ourselves thinking we only needed a more “aggressive mindset” or “fearless cricket” whatever these cliches mean.

The truth is after the turmoil of the 1990s, India professionalised every aspect of their cricketing system while Pakistan remained stuck in the past. India have the advantage of a fanatical 1bn+ television market but the investment has been made where it counts the MOST – in the grassroots and in Ranji Trophy, whereas we expect talent to come down from the sky and NEGLECT our grassroots.

It’s not sexy to talk about domestic pitches, balls and investing in coaching programmes, and MUCH easier to talk about jazba, cornered tigers, passion because this reflects Pakistani society at large. A demand for messiahs and quick fixes – nobody bothers to build institutions and systems. PSL is example of this new saviour we’ve hyped up. Everything is for short term whilst India built for long term.

Most of these Indian batsmen when they debut have got solid fundamentals and are READY to hit the ground running by the time they reach the international stage. The strength in depth is such that you’ve domestic batsmen with over a dozen FC hundreds and 50+ averages sitting on bench. Karun Nair scored 300 vs England yet he doesn’t get a game ! Top youngsters like Shaw, Pant and Gill don’t even feature. That then forces the incumbent Indian batsmen to not get lazy. Whereas Pakistan always rely on star individuals than a systemic approach to success - hence we still have fans asking for Umar Akmal’s 100th recall because he is “talent” and “matchwinner”.

What about the bowling ? For decades we snickered at Indian medium pacers. We mocked the MRF Pace Academy and other initiatives. Nobody’s laughing now as Jasprit Bumrah has become #1 ranked bowler. Bhuvi Kumar gave a masterclass to present the seam and demonstration of how to bowl with the new ball. Whereas our youngsters don’t know the basics or how to work a batsman out.

Let’s not even discuss the fielding and fitness levels. One team demands high standards and professionalism. The other sees captain carry pot belly.

This changes when we demand minimum standards of players and administrators. Enough of these cheap cliches about 1992 and unpredictability. If you can’t catch dollies then your six hitting ability is irrelevant. If you don’t bother maintaining a healthy diet – get lost. If you don’t want to work hard on your game and wish to rest on your past performances – then goodbye. THAT’S how we become consistent – through system building and accountability. India have shown us the way.
Click to expand...

Spot on. Yes all is fault of a clueless leadership not investing in the future but we can’t deny that lack of cricket in Pakistan, playing in dead UAE pitches and not playing international leagues like ipl also has harmed us a lot.
 
Bewal Express said:
Structure take years if not decades to build. We don't have the patience or desire to work hard, and so we will talk for a while and then go back to our default setting.
Click to expand...

I would say India started investing in its domestic cricket from 2000 onwards and it started reaping the benefits slowly and gradually
 
Your cricket will always be a reflection of your society. Unfortunately we are not willing to work hard and seriously address our problems. How have passengers like Malik been allowed into the world cup squad? We promised to look hard at our cricket after 2011 and 2015 WCs but nothing has happened. Our cricket has only deteriorated. I have some faith in Wasim Khan as he has a proven track record in a proper working environment so lets see what he can do.
 
The problem with the 1992 cliche is that the 1992 team was a world class team which had the ability to turn things around, this team is average.
 
Markhor said:
The gap between India and Pakistan is no longer a gulf but a yawning chasm. The bitter truth is never in our history have India outgunned us every department like they do now.

We’re deluding ourselves thinking this is merely a matter of putting the wrong XI out on the field or replacing one rookie (Hasnain/Shaheen) with another (Rauf). We’re also deluding ourselves thinking we only needed a more “aggressive mindset” or “fearless cricket” whatever these cliches mean.

The truth is after the turmoil of the 1990s, India professionalised every aspect of their cricketing system while Pakistan remained stuck in the past. India have the advantage of a fanatical 1bn+ television market but the investment has been made where it counts the MOST – in the grassroots and in Ranji Trophy, whereas we expect talent to come down from the sky and NEGLECT our grassroots.

It’s not sexy to talk about domestic pitches, balls and investing in coaching programmes, and MUCH easier to talk about jazba, cornered tigers, passion because this reflects Pakistani society at large. A demand for messiahs and quick fixes – nobody bothers to build institutions and systems. PSL is example of this new saviour we’ve hyped up. Everything is for short term whilst India built for long term.

Most of these Indian batsmen when they debut have got solid fundamentals and are READY to hit the ground running by the time they reach the international stage. The strength in depth is such that you’ve domestic batsmen with over a dozen FC hundreds and 50+ averages sitting on bench. Karun Nair scored 300 vs England yet he doesn’t get a game ! Top youngsters like Shaw, Pant and Gill don’t even feature. That then forces the incumbent Indian batsmen to not get lazy. Whereas Pakistan always rely on star individuals than a systemic approach to success - hence we still have fans asking for Umar Akmal’s 100th recall because he is “talent” and “matchwinner”.

What about the bowling ? For decades we snickered at Indian medium pacers. We mocked the MRF Pace Academy and other initiatives. Nobody’s laughing now as Jasprit Bumrah has become #1 ranked bowler. Bhuvi Kumar gave a masterclass to present the seam and demonstration of how to bowl with the new ball. Whereas our youngsters don’t know the basics or how to work a batsman out.

Let’s not even discuss the fielding and fitness levels. One team demands high standards and professionalism. The other sees captain carry pot belly.

This changes when we demand minimum standards of players and administrators. Enough of these cheap cliches about 1992 and unpredictability. If you can’t catch dollies then your six hitting ability is irrelevant. If you don’t bother maintaining a healthy diet – get lost. If you don’t want to work hard on your game and wish to rest on your past performances – then goodbye. THAT’S how we become consistent – through system building and accountability. India have shown us the way.
Click to expand...

POTW brother.
 
KingKhanWC said:
In terms of skill, talent there is no huge gulf. Pakistan team has poor selection, terrible fitness and a weak captain. A few changes are needed and things will improve quickly. You dont beat the best team England if you are a rubbish outfit.
Click to expand...

Uh what? There isn't a single Pak batsman that will walk into the Indian side. Not one.

Bumrah, Bhuvi, Shami and Kuldeep can all claim their places in this **** side.

The talent gap is so wide that it isnt measured miles but in light years.
 
Savak said:
I would say India started investing in its domestic cricket from 2000 onwards and it started reaping the benefits slowly and gradually
Click to expand...

At each and every stage our system is Corrupt. From the coaches who take bribes, to the father's that pay bribes to have birth certificates​ altered so we have people that 4 years older than claimed, all the way to the most Corrupt of them all, yes the PCB mafia.
 
Last edited:
Bewal Express said:
At each and every stage our system is Corrupt. From the coaches who take bribes, to the father's that pay bribes to have birth certificates​ altered so we have people that 4 years older than claimed, all the way to the most Corrupt of them all, yes the PCB mafia.
Click to expand...

And that is just a reflection on Pakistani society as a whole, so no wonder Pakistan cricket is this way.
 
Markhor said:
The gap between India and Pakistan is no longer a gulf but a yawning chasm. The bitter truth is never in our history have India outgunned us every department like they do now.

We’re deluding ourselves thinking this is merely a matter of putting the wrong XI out on the field or replacing one rookie (Hasnain/Shaheen) with another (Rauf). We’re also deluding ourselves thinking we only needed a more “aggressive mindset” or “fearless cricket” whatever these cliches mean.

The truth is after the turmoil of the 1990s, India professionalised every aspect of their cricketing system while Pakistan remained stuck in the past. India have the advantage of a fanatical 1bn+ television market but the investment has been made where it counts the MOST – in the grassroots and in Ranji Trophy, whereas we expect talent to come down from the sky and NEGLECT our grassroots.

It’s not sexy to talk about domestic pitches, balls and investing in coaching programmes, and MUCH easier to talk about jazba, cornered tigers, passion because this reflects Pakistani society at large. A demand for messiahs and quick fixes – nobody bothers to build institutions and systems. PSL is example of this new saviour we’ve hyped up. Everything is for short term whilst India built for long term.

Most of these Indian batsmen when they debut have got solid fundamentals and are READY to hit the ground running by the time they reach the international stage. The strength in depth is such that you’ve domestic batsmen with over a dozen FC hundreds and 50+ averages sitting on bench. Karun Nair scored 300 vs England yet he doesn’t get a game ! Top youngsters like Shaw, Pant and Gill don’t even feature. That then forces the incumbent Indian batsmen to not get lazy. Whereas Pakistan always rely on star individuals than a systemic approach to success - hence we still have fans asking for Umar Akmal’s 100th recall because he is “talent” and “matchwinner”.

What about the bowling ? For decades we snickered at Indian medium pacers. We mocked the MRF Pace Academy and other initiatives. Nobody’s laughing now as Jasprit Bumrah has become #1 ranked bowler. Bhuvi Kumar gave a masterclass to present the seam and demonstration of how to bowl with the new ball. Whereas our youngsters don’t know the basics or how to work a batsman out.

Let’s not even discuss the fielding and fitness levels. One team demands high standards and professionalism. The other sees captain carry pot belly.

This changes when we demand minimum standards of players and administrators. Enough of these cheap cliches about 1992 and unpredictability. If you can’t catch dollies then your six hitting ability is irrelevant. If you don’t bother maintaining a healthy diet – get lost. If you don’t want to work hard on your game and wish to rest on your past performances – then goodbye. THAT’S how we become consistent – through system building and accountability. India have shown us the way.
Click to expand...

Excellent post
 
Men versus boys.

Professionalism versus amateurism.

Intelligent versus dumb.

India versus Pakistan.
 
urnotserious said:
Uh what? There isn't a single Pak batsman that will walk into the Indian side. Not one.

Bumrah, Bhuvi, Shami and Kuldeep can all claim their places in this **** side.

The talent gap is so wide that it isnt measured miles but in light years.
Click to expand...

Pakistan wouldn't have beaten England if this was the case. Hafeez is one of the most talented batsmen ever produced by Pakistan but coaching, managment, facilities, board all have been terrible. Players do better when in the right environment. Not sure if you follow football but the likes of Matip, Robertson, Henderson would be average players but under Klopp have become 3 of the best in Europe this season.

If picking different players is the answer, Pakistan would be world beaters now but it's not. The whole system and culture needs change.
 
KingKhanWC said:
Pakistan wouldn't have beaten England if this was the case. Hafeez is one of the most talented batsmen ever produced by Pakistan but coaching, managment, facilities, board all have been terrible. Players do better when in the right environment. Not sure if you follow football but the likes of Matip, Robertson, Henderson would be average players but under Klopp have become 3 of the best in Europe this season.

If picking different players is the answer, Pakistan would be world beaters now but it's not. The whole system and culture needs change.
Click to expand...

The PCB is a mafia, it's run for the benefit of the connected. It can't change until all the people that work there are sacked and that ain't happening.
 
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