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Arzoo

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Hi!

I'm new to PP and to the wonderful world of forums, so bear with me.

But, to make my debut upon here, I decided to go with a light-hearted topic that can go south quite quickly, but I trust the maturity on here :)

Let's have a discourse on.... men! More specifically, Pakistani men and their obsession with women "out of their league" (applies to all men tbh) as well, as the hypocrisy that follows them; they'll follow "Islam" to a T, yet when it comes to aurat, bhar me jai morals or izzat- apni aur unki. From second wives for pseudo -Islamic reasons, to "shugal", lets discuss this phenomena :)


Before any misogynists' take arms, let me remind you to not deep this so much. This is the case, unfortunately, with many different ethnicities, but this is a Pakistani forum, so why not :)
 
Hello! Welcome to the best forum in the universe :)

To be honest, I’m stumped. Could you elaborate more on this “out of their league” business though?
 
Hmmm, by 'out of their' league, I suppose I mean when there is a clear and very obvious distinction between the man and woman, not just in looks or intellect, but (and I cringe whilst writing this)... class.

To provide more context, I mean, why is a woman, who may be just as lovely (if not better) as the woman in a "higher class" (lets call her A), is perceived as "less desirable" than A.

I suppose one could say that what this q is actually saying is "Why do Pakistani men thirst over women above their "class"/status.
 
Hmmm, by 'out of their' league, I suppose I mean when there is a clear and very obvious distinction between the man and woman, not just in looks or intellect, but (and I cringe whilst writing this)... class.

To provide more context, I mean, why is a woman, who may be just as lovely (if not better) as the woman in a "higher class" (lets call her A), is perceived as "less desirable" than A.

I suppose one could say that what this q is actually saying is "Why do Pakistani men thirst over women above their "class"/status.

You seem like a fairly liberal/open-minded/progressive/anti-discrimination individual (as one should be)

and so...

I don’t understand how you are lumping people together under the idea of “class” - isn’t this a backwards concept? Reminds me of caste system in India :(
 
How is this a man only thing? Everybody desires the best person. Ask women, many of them will tell you they want the richest/best looking/etc man alive.

Also having a second wife is not unislamic.
 
I suppose one could say that what this q is actually saying is "Why do Pakistani men thirst over women above their "class"/status.
You can ask the same about Pakistani women thirsting over men above their "class"/status etc as well.
 
oh I agree, hence it is in "" and the cringe bit. I mean why do they find someone of a higher class - an outdated concept in a way, more attractive, when it is the person that counts? Not the clan, caste, tribe, class, whatever labels you want to stick on them.
 
It's not a man thing, I definitely agree. But a lot of Pakistani men seem to thirst women from higher classes and treat those from the same one or below with contempt.
And if you mean "desires the best person" in terms of class, then, yeah, I don't agree with you there ngl. We need to stop perceiving those belonging to the upper strata as more desirable, morally righteous or untouchable. They are the same as the rest of us - so why the extra attraction?

And I know having a second wife isn't un-Islamic, thats why I put pseudo-islamic reasons - as in, their reasons stem from zina, but veiled as Islami.
 
I could and I have, and the reasons are usually about more stability as well as some others.

But the discussion is about Pakistani men, hypocrisy and class, so fire away! :D
 
It's not a man thing, I definitely agree. But a lot of Pakistani men seem to thirst women from higher classes and treat those from the same one or below with contempt.
So do a lot of Pakistani women, no?
 
It's not a man thing, I definitely agree. But a lot of Pakistani men seem to thirst women from higher classes and treat those from the same one or below with contempt.
And if you mean "desires the best person" in terms of class, then, yeah, I don't agree with you there ngl. We need to stop perceiving those belonging to the upper strata as more desirable, morally righteous or untouchable. They are the same as the rest of us - so why the extra attraction?

And I know having a second wife isn't un-Islamic, thats why I put pseudo-islamic reasons - as in, their reasons stem from zina, but veiled as Islami.

Bruh I think you need to do a better job explaining what you mean. I, and I think many others are confused on the premise of this thread.

What do you mean higher classes? What's a lower class? Are you talking in terms of money? Looks? Religiosity? Possibly anything else?
 
The only way men get women out of their league is if they make a lot of money, and provide a women with a luxury lifestyle. Or at least a better lifestyle than they could afford on their own.
 
You can ask the same about Pakistani women thirsting over men above their "class"/status etc as well.

Exactly. Pakistani women have contempt for guys who are not making good money, even if they are not doing anything themselves.

Unemployed or low earning females dont want unemployed or low earning men.
 
Basically a man can't get with a woman who earns more.. It's not the norm but more intellectual women do get with laymen of their own accord in some instances.

In the usual sense of 'league' obviously an unkempt, overweight and short man stays in his lane.

and is a doctor.

And 6' 2
 
Exactly. Pakistani women have contempt for guys who are not making good money, even if they are not doing anything themselves.

Unemployed or low earning females dont want unemployed or low earning men.

Agreed, and I find most of them will only consider the top 20% of men when it comes to success, looks and earnings etc, then many of them will complain why they find it difficult to get married.

Maybe I’m stereotyping too much...
 
Kinda ironic I deleted my thread of a similar vein because it got fixated on one topic.. It was a broad church of issues which given how it got fixated on a certain theme, delved in to the underlining issues
 
Agreed, and I find most of them will only consider the top 20% of men when it comes to success, looks and earnings etc, then many of them will complain why they find it difficult to get married.

Maybe I’m stereotyping too much...

Nope. I have heard of that also, that 80% of women, want 20% of men. And eventually since they are not enough men who meet their standards these deluded women will "settle".

And The hoor pari type girl who is lazy duffer can get a high earning man, but the 4/10 type girls cant. The problem is the 4/10 dont think of themselves that way, and when they eventually marry at their level, will always think they settled.
 
Basically a man can't get with a woman who earns more.. It's not the norm but more intellectual women do get with laymen of their own accord in some instances.

Thats why you will see these high earning women much more likely to marry divorced guys than the high earning men. And some will rather be single than marry a guy who they think is beneath her.

On the other hand we rarely see high earning guys struggle to get married. And often we see them with much younger women.

In the usual sense of 'league' obviously an unkempt, overweight and short man stays in his lane.

Exactly guys know where they stand. A broke guy who is short fat and bald, will know that his market value is low. A girl who is not much in the looks department wont think of herself that way. Most women these days think of themselves as gorgeous, hot, or cute. And they believe they are entitled to guys with money.
 
Every man aims for the best looking girl and every woman aims for the best possible mate. Unknowingly they are selecting how their children should look like. If it were the wild, only the best man will be able to mate with most women in his tribe or the neighboring tribe.

Thanks to arranged marriages and community rules, short, fat and bald men like me can aim high if we can work hard and have enough bank balance. Civilization has brought some parity to the playing field. Without these community rules, we wouldn’t stand a chance in open market. :inti
 
Every man aims for the best looking girl and every woman aims for the best possible mate. Unknowingly they are selecting how their children should look like. If it were the wild, only the best man will be able to mate with most women in his tribe or the neighboring tribe.

Thanks to arranged marriages and community rules, short, fat and bald men like me can aim high if we can work hard and have enough bank balance. Civilization has brought some parity to the playing field. Without these community rules, we wouldn’t stand a chance in open market. :inti

Its great to be a high earning desi man. I was at a Pakistani restaurant right before Covid started and i saw this gorgeous women, who i would rate a 9.5/10, with a man who was at minimum 10 years older than her. The guy had thinning hair, was short, scrwany build, but he was able to score big time thanks to arrange marriage.
 
I feel this above class thing applies more to women in general than men, Pakistani or otherwise. I have a few friends that could have done better and as for desires... Everyone desires the best. What gives anyone the right to criticize someone's desires. What a weird world we live in.
 
It's not a man thing, I definitely agree. But a lot of Pakistani men seem to thirst women from higher classes and treat those from the same one or below with contempt.
And if you mean "desires the best person" in terms of class, then, yeah, I don't agree with you there ngl. We need to stop perceiving those belonging to the upper strata as more desirable, morally righteous or untouchable. They are the same as the rest of us - so why the extra attraction?

And I know having a second wife isn't un-Islamic, thats why I put pseudo-islamic reasons - as in, their reasons stem from zina, but veiled as Islami.

As someone posted above, it goes both ways BUT unfortunately in most cases, females in Pakistan can only "wish" for a guy above their own socio economic status.

Tough subject to handle as it has some granularity and various shades of gray but in my personal opinion it's the general social (and sick) norms of our culture where male gender is considered "better" or by default, has the upper hand.

Before I touch the actual topic, I would say that there is a big misconception not only in Pakistan but all over the world.

We usually don't have a correct understanding of the scenarios when we push for gender equality.

If I have to put it in simple terms then,

Men and women are equal BUT they are not identical.

The underline above is the missing piece that we MUST acknowledge.

Say there is a test that has 10 questions, and each question has 10 points.

A man answers 9 questions right but his # 2 was wrong so he gets 90 points.
The female also gets 9 right but her # 7 is wrong, she also gets 90 points.

In the end, both are equal at 90, but they are not identical.

Nature has put qualities in men where they have an upper hand IN SOME aspects of life.

And in the same way, nature has blessed women with qualities where they have an upper hand on men, in some other aspects of life.

Here is an example, you probably have never heard of a country sending an army of all females to fight a war with an army of men.

But at the same time, when a baby cries, the father cannot stand it. It hit's his nerves. The mother on the hand has been blessed by nature to be able to absorb the baby's cries as if it's a walk in the park.

The same woman will jump up and down in panic if she sees a mouse or a cockroach in the bathroom while man will pick a shoe and squash it at the spot.

Once we understand that our very basic understanding (and fully start believing) that "man and woman being equal in rights" but it also has a fine print (the underlined above) then perhaps things may start to change for good.

Now mind you,
Not all men are bad, and not all women are angels.

There are gold diggers for women and there are scumbag for guys.

There are good decent, smart, intelligent and truly faithful girls and there are hardworking "Mazloom and shareef shohars" (like myself :P:22: )".

However, the general perception in our lower and middle class society where male gender is given a carte blanche is the root cause of the issue.

And it's not only limited to the male himself when it comes to finding a life partner.
It's the entire family of the male, ESPECIALLY his mother who blindly believes in it.

She wants a girl that looks like Lady Diana, Bill Gates to be her Father, and a physician to be her profession and then she must be ready to perform "Jhaaru and Bartan", for her chouthi jamaat fail bandar looking, nalaiq, nikamma and awara son.

And the worst part is, everyone is OK with this notion. The guy himself, his sisters, his entire family.

The poor middle/lower class girl and his family on the other hand, has limited say.
The parents eagerly wait for a rishta and ready to make HUGE compromises because they must off load this responsibility before the girl gets "over age" or they pass away.


The results of such union is usually not always a truly happy marital life.

Girls usually get their dreams shattered when they are kinda forced to get married to a guy and his family who is lesser in socio economic status.

By her nature to compromise, she does what she can but the hurt almost always remains there.
So "Happy wife, Happy Life", hardly ever happens in such unions. It's mostly a huge compromise from both parties due to social pressure.

There is obviously no guarantee in either way whether you have found a life partner through personal choice, love marriage, arrange marriage etc but I think it must start with the guys to truly understand that in order to increase their chances to live a happy marital life, they should look for a suited match where the girl should be one degree less than him in education, family, and socio economic status.

When you bring such girl to your home after Nikkah, she generally takes it as a blessing and goes above and beyond to keep you happy.

This will also resolve the problem of a lot of lower class families where the girls are unable to get married.

The mothers of the boy, and boy himself MUST understand that, if you want a doctor girl, then you MUST be a specialist physician yourself to begin with.

If you want a lovely looking girl, then you MUST be a good looking young and handsome man.
If you want a "shareef girl", then you MUST have an exemplary moral character.
If you want a girl from a rich family, then you MUST have a family richer then her family.

But in our society, the situation is totally opposite.
Nalaiq and Nikkma guy (and his family) will look for a highly educated girl.

Guy will have some education and perhaps a job but may be missing two frontal tooth, and a severe hair loss but he and his mother would want an extremely pretty looking girl 10 years younger than him.

The guy would have a sketchy life style with subah shaam poondi and slew of online and offline girlfriends and a party lifestyle, but when it comes to marriage? Ohhhh, now he wants a " som-o-salaat ki paaband shareef girl".


So males must "look at their shakkal in a mirror" and acknowledge their aukaat to truly evaluate themselves and find out exactly what they are. And only then, look for a girl that should do justice to this union.
The mothers of such guys do it too.

And then we must also put a stop on this extremely SICK cultural trait where mothers of the boys shop around to visit other people's homes and look at their daughters as if they are here in a bakra mandi, shopping for an animal.

I have a very good friend from Rawalpindi who immigrated to United States a few years ago.
The guy was a Major and a physician in the Pak army, his both parents are also retired physicians from the army as well. This guys also holds an engineering degree. And he is one heckuva smart and a humble guy.

In their family, they have what I call an exemplary way for matrimonial unions.

If they hear about a girl for their sons, or if someone recommends a girl, they do their own investigation to verify the basic information without letting the girl's family know. Then they ask the guy to secretly take a look at the girl (visit her college etc) without making any verbal contact and without letting her know.

If they boy approves, the family simply visits the girl's house and don't ask to see the girl. They simply put the matrimonial offer on the table, and then give full autonomy to let the girl's family start their research on the guy and take the final decision.

I truly wish if other families start doing this in Pakistan as well.

----------------------

The other piece where you touched a little in OP is religious angle.

And my God! Where should I begin?

In a vast majority of our religious education, religious understanding and religious implementation, our entire Islam ends at female.

Sara ka sara Islaam aurat pe aa kar rukta hai.

For example,
Lots and lots of emphasis on parda, head covers, and dressing up with modesty for females but hardly ANYWAHERE you will hear a sermon where the Mullah sahib tells the males to "LOWER THEIR GAZE" as it's an order of Quran.

In the name of honor, a father may take the life of his daughter for having a questionable character, but the same father will turn his face the other way, if his son is a fornicator.

And then we have another polar extreme on the other side which is perhaps the side effect of this injustice, where you will see "Mera Jisam meri Marzi" type upper class females beating their chests in support of the middle/lower class females. These upper and high class women, actually don't give a flying flock about the poor lower class females. They have them work as slaves in their lavish homes.

Three times divorced females on TV giving advices to other females as how to run their home affairs.

Aaaway ka aawa he plata huva hai.
 
For example,
Lots and lots of emphasis on parda, head covers, and dressing up with modesty for females but hardly ANYWAHERE you will hear a sermon where the Mullah sahib tells the males to "LOWER THEIR GAZE" as it's an order of Quran.

In the name of honor, a father may take the life of his daughter for having a questionable character, but the same father will turn his face the other way, if his son is a fornicator.

Is this really true though? I've heard mullahs say that in many khutbahs, and on Islamic tv shows. Also idk about yours or others parents but mine would go just as hard as me if I was doing that stuff.

You're pedaling to extremes. Sure, these things may happen on rare occasions, but it's not the barometer for the whole country.
 
Is this really true though? I've heard mullahs say that in many khutbahs, and on Islamic tv shows. Also idk about yours or others parents but mine would go just as hard as me if I was doing that stuff.

You're pedaling to extremes. Sure, these things may happen on rare occasions, but it's not the barometer for the whole country.

Obviously there are example such as yours. I even gave one if you read my post again where I wrote about a close friend and his family.

But tell me, how many times have you heard in Pakistan where a father took the life of his son cuz he was formicating or kidnapped someone's daughter for a forced marriage?

How many times have your heard acid is splashed on a guy's face by his wife cuz he had physical relationships with another female?

Again, not all guys are bad and not all women are angels, but in our society, generally there is a bias and in many cases, injustice hurled upon females in the lower and middle class.

I am not supporting mera jisam meri marzi type notions but I do feel that in our lower and middle class social setup, sometimes women don't have much of a say in how things are done. They can only wish.

However, I would encourage you to reply to OP with your thoughts.
In my opinion, what OP has pointed out, has some truth to it, and my reply is not meant to be a "barometer for the ENTIRE country". I repeatedly said middle and lower class in general.

You may think differently. And it's good to have a difference in opinion.
 
Obviously there are example such as yours. I even gave one if you read my post again where I wrote about a close friend and his family.

But tell me, how many times have you heard in Pakistan where a father took the life of his son cuz he was formicating or kidnapped someone's daughter for a forced marriage?

How many times have your heard acid is splashed on a guy's face by his wife cuz he had physical relationships with another female?


Again, not all guys are bad and not all women are angels, but in our society, generally there is a bias and in many cases, injustice hurled upon females in the lower and middle class.

I am not supporting mera jisam meri marzi type notions but I do feel that in our lower and middle class social setup, sometimes women don't have much of a say in how things are done. They can only wish.

However, I would encourage you to reply to OP with your thoughts.
In my opinion, what OP has pointed out, has some truth to it, and my reply is not meant to be a "barometer for the ENTIRE country". I repeatedly said middle and lower class in general.

You may think differently. And it's good to have a difference in opinion.

Well how many times have I heard a father do that to their daughter? Or a man do that to his wife? Not many times either. Most parents are normal enough to just scold their children when they do wrong, not kill them. Most people are normal enough to just get a divorce.

I do agree, there is a little hypocrisy, but things like this are very rare.
 
The mothers of the boy, and boy himself MUST understand that, if you want a doctor girl, then you MUST be a specialist physician yourself to begin with.

Lets get real. Guys already know that females dont want a man who makes way less than them. And if some family sends a rishta to those type of girls it results in rejection for the most part. Until that girl gets past a certain age and starts getting desperate.

If you want a lovely looking girl, then you MUST be a good looking young and handsome man.

Sure a guy should be good looking if he wants a good looking girl, however if the guy is willing to marry down, like you suggested in your post, then why should he not get a good looking girl. Girls are not entitled to men who make more than then. Plenty of good looking girl who are ready to marry men below them in looks as long as they are above them in status.

If you want a "shareef girl", then you MUST have an exemplary moral character.

Plenty of shareef girls dont mind marrying guys who dont have a exemplary moral character. As long as they make good money that is. However regardless of how much money a girl makes a shareef family wont send her a rishta if she is known to drink, slept around, takes drugs etc.

If you want a girl from a rich family, then you MUST have a family richer then her family.

But in our society, the situation is totally opposite.
Nalaiq and Nikkma guy (and his family) will look for a highly educated girl.

Everyone wants the best. Families should reject these rishtas if they think they are no good. And most do.

Guy will have some education and perhaps a job but may be missing two frontal tooth, and a severe hair loss but he and his mother would want an extremely pretty looking girl 10 years younger than him.

The only way that type of guy will get a extemely pretty girl, is if he has a high paying job, or potential to make a lot of money. Its greed on part of girls and their families.

The hoor pari type girls are limited. Most Pakistani girls are average, and they do fraud in the rishta game by sending pictures with filters, changing their skin tone, etc. Most average girls think they are hot, and thats why they think they are settling on looks. No doubt helped by society, who always tell women regardless of what they look like that they are attractive.

The guy would have a sketchy life style with subah shaam poondi and slew of online and offline girlfriends and a party lifestyle, but when it comes to marriage? Ohhhh, now he wants a " som-o-salaat ki paaband shareef girl"..

If she shareef girl has no problem with it whats your takleef. Again they might be willing to marry that type of guy for money. As long as he was transparent than their should be no problem

Badmash girls are not wanted by traditional families.

So males must "look at their shakkal in a mirror" and acknowledge their aukaat to truly evaluate themselves and find out exactly what they are. And only then, look for a girl that should do justice to this union.
The mothers of such guys do it too.

That applies to females too. Look at their shakal without makeup in a mirror. They should acknowledge their aukaat as well. If you are an average looking girl with no job, dont dream about the good looking tall high earning man sending you a rishta. This goes for mothers and fathers of such girls as well.
 
[MENTION=151861]Colorblind Genius[/MENTION] I read your essay (:P), and will now give my opinion. But first I have a bit to say about what you said

I think your generalizations are slightly off. For the most part, your post is correct. What you say though, happens to both genders. The problem is not that parents are too forceful when it comes to the marriage of their daughters, rather it's parents being too forceful when it comes to the marriage of their children in general. Many guys, just like girls, are forced/blackmailed into marriages they don't want to be in, predominantly by mothers. Both my mom and dad say they agreed to wherever their moms wanted to get them married. My parents do get along fine thankfully, but that's just luck. I know relatives who have had unsuccessful marriages for this reason, but my mom will still say it's fine "because they're still together", even though one, or both of them are unhappy.

My mom says to me all the time "tum to meri marzi sey shaadi karogey naa?", and I just dodge the topic because I'm still young so there is no reason to talk about marriage right now. But when the time comes, there's no way I'm just blindly agreeing to wherever my mom wants me to get married, just like she, and many of our parents, and grandparents had to. I'm the one who'll be getting married, and while I should take their opinions into account, I should not have to just accept whatever they decree upon me.

That's the true issue. It's less to do with men vs women, more to do with overzealous parents. Our parents always lecture us about the rights of parents, which are obviously important, but they rarely consider the rights of children. Thankfully this culture is slowly changing, and the onus is upon us to continue that.

Now onto my opinion on the topic:

It is merely human nature to want the best spouse. If someone offered me a girl who is a 10/10 in looks, is very nice, has no faults, and truly loves me, I'll take up on their offer straight away. It's no different for women, although the criteria may be slightly different, we all want that fantasy partner. The truth is, that no such person exists in reality, hence, why it's a fantasy person. We all have to "settle" for someone. I don't even mean that in a derogatory way. No matter how much we love the people in our lives, there are things we'd change about them.

And as I said above many times, women do the same. So I don't understand why we should shame men in particular for it.
 
[MENTION=151861]Colorblind Genius[/MENTION] I read your essay (:P), and will now give my opinion. But first I have a bit to say about what you said

I think your generalizations are slightly off. For the most part, your post is correct. What you say though, happens to both genders. The problem is not that parents are too forceful when it comes to the marriage of their daughters, rather it's parents being too forceful when it comes to the marriage of their children in general. Many guys, just like girls, are forced/blackmailed into marriages they don't want to be in, predominantly by mothers. Both my mom and dad say they agreed to wherever their moms wanted to get them married. My parents do get along fine thankfully, but that's just luck. I know relatives who have had unsuccessful marriages for this reason, but my mom will still say it's fine "because they're still together", even though one, or both of them are unhappy.

My mom says to me all the time "tum to meri marzi sey shaadi karogey naa?", and I just dodge the topic because I'm still young so there is no reason to talk about marriage right now. But when the time comes, there's no way I'm just blindly agreeing to wherever my mom wants me to get married, just like she, and many of our parents, and grandparents had to. I'm the one who'll be getting married, and while I should take their opinions into account, I should not have to just accept whatever they decree upon me.

That's the true issue. It's less to do with men vs women, more to do with overzealous parents. Our parents always lecture us about the rights of parents, which are obviously important, but they rarely consider the rights of children. Thankfully this culture is slowly changing, and the onus is upon us to continue that.

Now onto my opinion on the topic:

It is merely human nature to want the best spouse. If someone offered me a girl who is a 10/10 in looks, is very nice, has no faults, and truly loves me, I'll take up on their offer straight away. It's no different for women, although the criteria may be slightly different, we all want that fantasy partner. The truth is, that no such person exists in reality, hence, why it's a fantasy person. We all have to "settle" for someone. I don't even mean that in a derogatory way. No matter how much we love the people in our lives, there are things we'd change about them.

And as I said above many times, women do the same. So I don't understand why we should shame men in particular for it.

Shame men?
I don’t think you fully read the “essay”, did you?

I clearly stated that there are good men and not all women are mazloom and miskeen.

Your personal example may not directly relate to the demographics of the lower and middles class in general in Pakistani social setup that I was taking about. (Assuming that you are based in Canada) but you did come up with an interesting example

— If a 10/10 girl is “OFFERED” to you, you will cash out on the opportunity. —

Think about it, are YOU 10/10 for that girl?

Would it be justice to her if she would reject you if she was 100% free and at total library to make her own choice?

Did she approach you on her own and expressed her interest? Probably never.

Notice that your mother TELLS you with some hope, that you should be getting married per her choice, but you already think otherwise - but in many cases in our lower and middle class families in Pakistan, many girls are not even told this.

They simply have to make a compromise and agree with what parents choose cuz in many cases, they are a considered as a huge “responsibility” on the parents.
 
And mind you, I am not even talking about the rural demographics where about 70% of Pakistani populations lives.

In those demographics, a woman is mostly looked as a child producing machine and hardly anything else. She has no say in anything.

So if you talk about addressing the topic in majority our of population demographics, then the situation may look even more grim.
 
And mind you, I am not even talking about the rural demographics where about 70% of Pakistani populations lives.

In those demographics, a woman is mostly looked as a child producing machine and hardly anything else. She has no say in anything.

So if you talk about addressing the topic in majority our of population demographics, then the situation may look even more grim.

And a man is looked as a money producing machine and hardly anything else.
 
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