Do recent events make you question the narrative of historic Indo-Pak battles?

[ElRaja]

To be honest this is the first time i've actually been old enough to critically analyse any information when it comes to Pakistan and India direct military conflicts as it happens. Kargil time i was barely 10 years old.

And to be honest i have been staggered by the audacity of Indian misdirection when it comes to reporting of the recent conflict. In my wildest i never imagined they would lie with such little concern of the consequences of being disproven, whether it be the Indian army, media or politicians.

Makes me think of all the stuff that was given as fact with respect to historic conflicts between both countries where i judged the recollections of my military relatives in respect of what i assumed was an inherent bias, but maybe there was some truth, at least more than i gave them credit for in light of the generally accepted indian narrative of those passages of history.

 

[a_tahir]

My question is, Are we really at the brink of the war?
Or are situations before war much worse than is currently?

 

[Finisher]

Yes
Every one of indian claims.
93000 pak soldiers surrendering etc

 

[Zhasan]

Yup, PAF consistently has outperformed IAF in each war. Shot down twice as many planes in '65 as IAF, but no Indian worth their salt will ever accept that fact.

 

[Pak Warrior]

We have one of the best air forces in the world, and better than IAf. Out of 40,000 soldiers we choose 1 pilot, because we want only the best. We give them jets that are worth 18 million dollars, we cant afford to put such expensive thing in the hands of just anyone.

In 1965 we had the worlds largest tank battle since ww2 and we destroyed the indians very thoroughly. Anything we read and hear from india about pakistan, war etc... should taken with a Himalayan amount of salt

 

[PetroDollars]

lol, even indian generals have now admitted the lies they fed the indian people during kargil - take a look at this from the general who india into kargil

---------

Not convinced we won Kargil: Lt Gen Kishan Pal to NDTV

NEW DELHI: kishanpalstory a General who led the Indian Army on ground in the Kargil conflict, has broken his 11-year silence to say that he believes India actually lost the war in strategic terms.

In an exclusive interview to NDTV, Lieutenant-General Kishan Pal, who was then the head of the Srinagar-based 15 Corps, says India has failed to consolidate its tactical gains.

Asked for his assessment of the conflict 11 years later, Gen Pal told NDTV: "Well for 11 years I did not speak at all...I did not speak because I was never convinced about this war, whether we really won it...We did gain some tactical victories, we regained the territories we lost, we lost 587 precious lives. I consider this loss of war because whatever we gained from the war has not been consolidated, either politically or diplomatically. It has not been consolidated militarily."

Gen Pal was recently in a controversy involving the battle performance report of one of his juniors, Brigadier Devinder Singh.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/not-convinced-we-won-kargil-lt-gen-kishan-pal-to-ndtv-419433

 

[Pak Warrior]

lol, even indian generals have now admitted the lies they fed the indian people during kargil - take a look at this from the general who india into kargil

---------

Not convinced we won Kargil: Lt Gen Kishan Pal to NDTV

NEW DELHI: kishanpalstory a General who led the Indian Army on ground in the Kargil conflict, has broken his 11-year silence to say that he believes India actually lost the war in strategic terms.

In an exclusive interview to NDTV, Lieutenant-General Kishan Pal, who was then the head of the Srinagar-based 15 Corps, says India has failed to consolidate its tactical gains.

Asked for his assessment of the conflict 11 years later, Gen Pal told NDTV: "Well for 11 years I did not speak at all...I did not speak because I was never convinced about this war, whether we really won it...We did gain some tactical victories, we regained the territories we lost, we lost 587 precious lives. I consider this loss of war because whatever we gained from the war has not been consolidated, either politically or diplomatically. It has not been consolidated militarily."

Gen Pal was recently in a controversy involving the battle performance report of one of his juniors, Brigadier Devinder Singh.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/not-convinced-we-won-kargil-lt-gen-kishan-pal-to-ndtv-419433

Wow that is amazing find. I know Musharraf always claim we won kargil, but indians say reverse. I never knew who to believe because of obvious reasons, but this is great news for us. I hope our indian pp on here can read and open their eyes

 

[sjahmed23]

Yes, just like you this has been my first experience and realizing how the Indian side manipulates their public and tries to muscle their narrative through. I used to also be on the fence because I thought both sides had biases but this week I realized that I am on the right side.

 

[Greenstorm]

Never had any doubt to begin with. Indian/International propaganda against Pakistan is very effective and some Pakistanis fall for it. It is our fault as well because we do not present our narrative properly.

 

[Pakistanian]

Yeah I doubt all of india's history and the claims they made in past wars. There was much less transparency prior to the social media era, so they must have gotten away with a lot more.

 

[Bilal_103]

When I younger I used to believe everything I saw on the internet but the older me realizes that most of it is half truths and you just have to come up with the conclusion. There really is no such thing as free media, everything you see has a spin to it.

 

[Haroon786]

There is a reason why there's the quote, "history is always written by the victors".

 

[Pak Warrior]

There is a reason why there's the quote, "history is always written by the victors".

And in india and pakistan both have different written history because both have always won lol

 

[ElRaja]

In 1965 we had the worlds largest tank battle since ww2 and we destroyed the indians very thoroughly. Anything we read and hear from india about pakistan, war etc... should taken with a Himalayan amount of salt

this is one of the things ive heard passed down a lot when i was younger, but i havnt ever been able to piece together what actually happened. unfortunately i think its very hard to corroborate evidence nearly 50 years later.

any info on this would be appreciated.

also what is the solution, the current battle notwithstanding, what is the best way to formalise the pakistani side of the narrative.

even the debunking of the original surginal strike was a bbc piece.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

I don't have knowledge; neither do I have read any literature on this matter.

There is no way in hell that Pakistan would have moved forward in time had India won any of these wars. They would've immediately invaded if it were to them.

Even in older times Mughals, Ghazanvis etc. defeated their larger numbers. And I'm not dissing Hindu ancients here. Just saying that a smaller army can "win" against a larger adversary. It's been done. In older times, Pakistani army knew for a fact that of they "lost" it is game over.

By that logic, Pakistan didn't lose. Or India didn't win jack, even with their larger numbers.

 

[Sachin136]

I don't have knowledge; neither do I have read any literature on this matter.

There is no way in hell that Pakistan would have moved forward in time had India won any of these wars. They would've immediately invaded if it were to them.

I suggest you read up about those conflicts first. Then you'll understand what happened. Winning a conflict doesn't suddenly mean you can annex a country.

 

[Pak Warrior]

this is one of the things ive heard passed down a lot when i was younger, but i havnt ever been able to piece together what actually happened. unfortunately i think its very hard to corroborate evidence nearly 50 years later.

any info on this would be appreciated.

also what is the solution, the current battle notwithstanding, what is the best way to formalise the pakistani side of the narrative.

even the debunking of the original surginal strike was a bbc piece.

Brother I will try to get some more evidence for you but I swear on the Almighty, what I say is true. My family has long history of being in Pakistan Army and Airforce. During 1965 when Indian tanks were coming towards Pakistan, it was Ayub Khan said to our brave soldiers, "Agey indian/enemy tanks hain, aur peechay tumahri Maa aur bhanein." He was ready to lay down his life and strap explosives to his chest and lay down under the oncoming tanks. The soldiers said No you are our leader, and then they went and strapped their chest with explosives and bravely laid down under the enemy tanks and shaheed huey. They blew up India tanks and made them collide with eachother creating a huge blockade. The indians could not move forward and left their tanks and ran away like dogs. I think it is over 200 tanks they had left their. It looked like a tank graveyard. We have many indian tanks on display now for people to go and see from that time

 

[Jin Chacha]

The major difference between the current conflict and the previous ones is that this is the first Indo-Pak conflict of the internet age. Both the amount of information and disinformation has grown enormously compared to any previous wars. In the past people had no choice but to rely on official sources whether it was ptv in case of Pakistan or Indian state TV. In effect both sides fed their public the official narrative. Occasionally people tried to get an outside viewpoint from foreign radio like BBC or VOA or foreign newspapers but the majority had no access to even those.

The problem right now is the opposite. Everyone has greater access to information from unofficial sources like social media (the videos of Abhinandan being beaten by the locals or villagers at Balakot filming the strike area being current examples) but it is drowned in a flood of disinformation and only the relatively educated and tech savvy are able to differentiate it from the fake news. I am amazed at how gullible an average person can be when some of my friends and family share obviously fake videos and pics on facebook or whatsapp. I personally don't believe the official versions of the previous Indo-Pak wars (both Indian and Pakistani versions). I just try to look at the claims of both sides and assume the truth is somewhere in the middle. Having said that I do believe that while truth about the specifics may be hard to uncover, the truth about the overall picture does eventually come out and cannot be hidden.

 

[ElRaja]

Brother I will try to get some more evidence for you but I swear on the Almighty, what I say is true. My family has long history of being in Pakistan Army and Airforce. During 1965 when Indian tanks were coming towards Pakistan, it was Ayub Khan said to our brave soldiers, "Agey indian/enemy tanks hain, aur peechay tumahri Maa aur bhanein." He was ready to lay down his life and strap explosives to his chest and lay down under the oncoming tanks. The soldiers said No you are our leader, and then they went and strapped their chest with explosives and bravely laid down under the enemy tanks and shaheed huey. They blew up India tanks and made them collide with eachother creating a huge blockade. The indians could not move forward and left their tanks and ran away like dogs. I think it is over 200 tanks they had left their. It looked like a tank graveyard. We have many indian tanks on display now for people to go and see from that time

i don't doubt you bro, those exact same recollections, virtually verbatim (sans ayub khan) have been told to me when i was younger by family members who served in the war.

 

[Pak Warrior]

i don't doubt you bro, those exact same recollections, virtually verbatim (sans ayub khan) have been told to me when i was younger by family members who served in the war.

I'm going off memory here about the story. The story is accurate but I will double check the part of Ayub Khan as the one who said that. I know it was one of the leaders at the time.

 

[a_tahir]

Can someone tell me how this situation corresponds to the 1999 one?
Was the situation before the war similar?
Which one was worse?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

100%. The blatant fake news from India is only being exposed due to the internet and social media. Who knows what lies they got away with in the past??

 

[Syed1]

We are lucky that we have actual video evidence otherwise none of the following would have ever happened:


1. Maindad last bowl six
2. Constant phainti for India in Sharjah
3. Waqar Younis dismissing some rotlu Indian batsman only for IK to call him back and get dismissed very next ball
4. Chennai test
5. Akhtar two wickets of Sachin and Dravid in consecutive balls
6. Akhtar breaking Ganguly's ribs
7. Afridi 4 sixes of Harbajhan
8. Afridi 2 sixes of Ashwin
9. Aane Do series
10. Jeet lo Dil series (or whatever it was called where we beat them 4-2 in their own home)
11. Winning the test match after being 29-6
12. Champions Trophy final


And many many many more




If it were left to the Indian media they would have spinned all of the above events as Indian victory.

 

[Pakpak]

We were fed some lies too about previous wars but Indians have turned out to be bigger liars. Its clear what the GOI's thinking was. They can't attack us, so why not invent attacks. This nonsense was exposed in 2016 too but we didn't do anything. Now we did, so the next time they invent something else they will think twice.

 

[Pak Warrior]

We are lucky that we have actual video evidence otherwise none of the following would have ever happened:


1. Maindad last bowl six
2. Constant phainti for India in Sharjah
3. Waqar Younis dismissing some rotlu Indian batsman only for IK to call him back and get dismissed very next ball
4. Chennai test
5. Akhtar two wickets of Sachin and Dravid in consecutive balls
6. Akhtar breaking Ganguly's ribs
7. Afridi 4 sixes of Harbajhan
8. Afridi 2 sixes of Ashwin
9. Aane Do series
10. Jeet lo Dil series (or whatever it was called where we beat them 4-2 in their own home)
11. Winning the test match after being 29-6
12. Champions Trophy final


And many many many more




If it were left to the Indian media they would have spinned all of the above events as Indian victory.

Feeling proud as a Pakistani after seeing your post and remembering such great events. Dil kush kardia hai bhai.

 

[Darkrai]

I have realized how pathetic and deceitful these people are.

 

[Syed1]

Feeling proud as a Pakistani after seeing your post and remembering such great events. Dil kush kardia hai bhai.

These are just from the top of my head... etched in memory. I'm sure there are other wonderful moments that I may remember if I do a little digging.

 

[ElRaja]

We were fed some lies too about previous wars but Indians have turned out to be bigger liars. Its clear what the GOI's thinking was. They can't attack us, so why not invent attacks. This nonsense was exposed in 2016 too but we didn't do anything. Now we did, so the next time they invent something else they will think twice.

this was my stance before, i thought they both lied, like nearly every state does to spin the narrative, but as i said before the audacity of Indian fabrications are completely on another level.

 

[Mamoon]

The bravado of Pakistani posters in this thread is bemusing.

Since 1947, we have not won an inch of J&K and we managed to surrender the entire East Pakistan.

So what narrative are we talking about?

What defines winning a war anyway? Achieving the end goal, or is it simply a numbers game?

If it is the former, we have lost every war and comprehensively. If it is the latter, which I don’t think it is, we can claim superiority based our version of events and conforming to our biases.

We celebrate the 1965 war because we successfully “defended” Lahore, but what we don’t tell our children is that we had to retreat from Kashmir because we didn’t have the manpower and the resources to engage on two fronts.

Indian government lies, Pakistani government lies, India media lies and Pakistani media lies.

People on both sides of the border are taken for a ride, and they believe what they want to believed depending on which side of the border they were born.

Both sides are equally hilarious though - India wants the world to believe that they wiped out 300 terrorists and an F-16 with a jet from the 60s without a shred of evidence.

Pakistan wants the world to believe that they have pounded India in every war, but yet somehow, have failed to penetrate J&K and lost a big chunk of the country.

 

[ElRaja]

The bravado of Pakistani posters in this thread is bemusing.

Since 1947, we have not won an inch of J&K and we managed to surrender the entire East Pakistan.

So what narrative are we talking about?

What defines winning a war anyway? Achieving the end goal, or is it simply a numbers game?

If it is the former, we have lost every war and comprehensively. If it is the latter, which I don’t think it is, we can claim superiority based our version of events and conforming to our biases.

We celebrate the 1965 war because we successfully “defended” Lahore, but what we don’t tell our children is that we had to retreat from Kashmir because we didn’t have the manpower and the resources to engage on two fronts.

Indian government lies, Pakistani government lies, India media lies and Pakistani media lies.

People on both sides of the border are taken for a ride, and they believe what they want to believed depending on which side of the border they were born.

Both sides are equally hilarious though - India wants the world to believe that they wiped out 300 terrorists and an F-16 with a jet from the 60s without a shred of evidence.

Pakistan wants the world to believe that they have pounded India in every war, but yet somehow, have failed to penetrate J&K and lost a big chunk of the country.

if you had read the original post i never mentioned wars, i mentioned battles. there is an argument to say 65 was a stalemate, but thats not the point of the thread.

india is 4 to 5 times larger than pakistan in every metric (martial or economic), pakistan can only ever hope to defend its territory, no pakistani truthfully in this day and age would expect pakistan to win an expansionary territorial war.

i dont wanna derail the thread but pakistan lost bangladesh long before the army admitted defeat to india.

 

[Last Monetarist]

lol, even indian generals have now admitted the lies they fed the indian people during kargil - take a look at this from the general who india into kargil

---------

Not convinced we won Kargil: Lt Gen Kishan Pal to NDTV

NEW DELHI: kishanpalstory a General who led the Indian Army on ground in the Kargil conflict, has broken his 11-year silence to say that he believes India actually lost the war in strategic terms.

In an exclusive interview to NDTV, Lieutenant-General Kishan Pal, who was then the head of the Srinagar-based 15 Corps, says India has failed to consolidate its tactical gains.

Asked for his assessment of the conflict 11 years later, Gen Pal told NDTV: "Well for 11 years I did not speak at all...I did not speak because I was never convinced about this war, whether we really won it...We did gain some tactical victories, we regained the territories we lost, we lost 587 precious lives. I consider this loss of war because whatever we gained from the war has not been consolidated, either politically or diplomatically. It has not been consolidated militarily."

Gen Pal was recently in a controversy involving the battle performance report of one of his juniors, Brigadier Devinder Singh.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/not-convinced-we-won-kargil-lt-gen-kishan-pal-to-ndtv-419433

This to me typifies the human suffering in the aftermath of a war, no one wins in a war. I have heard from people who fought on the Pakistan side of this conflict, and their reactions have been very similar.

All lives lost are human lives, regardless of nationality, religion, and race. The general is displaying elements of survivor's guilt as well, and understandably lashing out at the politicians for their failure.

You might have seen this story play out hundreds of times before, if you care to analyze the impact of war on the mindset of its primary actors. It's futile and heartbreaking.

The warmongers on both sides of the border are revolting, despicable, pathetic excuses for humanity.

 

[Stalin]

Yes . Pakistan won all wars against India but it was covered up by the biased Indian media.
Not only that, pakistan have already occupied the whole of J&K way back in 1948 but the biased indian media is not showing the truth.
And also Pakistan won the 1971 war and captured almost 100,000 indian soldiers.
Till today, they are controlling East Pakistan but indian media is showing fake news about a non existent country called Bangladesh.

Hindustan media murdabad.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

If I am right, [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] is a doctor, the son of a Pakistani civil servant. Any country, including India of course, would benefit from having him. Unfortunately for us, and fortunately for Pakistan, though he has the habit of calling a spade a spade, his loyalties clearly lie with Pakistan. What he says about Pakistan may not please Pakistanis, but is the way forward for the country.

No. In all his posts, be it regarding Cricket or any external matter, he always downplays Pakistan whilst bravado-ing India, consistently. Since day 1.


"Calling spade a spade"

The guy is a comedy gold, for goodness sake )

An example: in hindsight. If someone had posted a month ago that Pakistan have capability to defend its aerial border and God forbid capture an Indian pilot... I have no doubt that he would have written a mini-thesis assuring us all that PAF is crap

I said this in another thread: whether he likes it or not, [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] is a living legacy of those people who hated the idea of creation of Pakistan. And I am glad he posts at PP, this way, at least me and we all have a confirmation that people like him existed and still do exist.

Quaid and the creators of Pakistan Zindabad.

Pakistan army Zindabad.

IK Zindabad.

Also, I can feel that each day Pakistan achieves something, it's hard for the likes of him and they suffer real physical pain and have to recurr to mental gymnastics to assure that Pak will fail... soon

Yet here we are 1947 - infinity. Plus Ultra

In Sha Allah.

 

[Napa]

No. In all his posts, be it regarding Cricket or any external matter, he always downplays Pakistan whilst bravado-ing India, consistently. Since day 1.


"Calling spade a spade"

The guy is a comedy gold, for goodness sake )

An example: in hindsight. If someone had posted a month ago that Pakistan have capability to defend its aerial border and God forbid capture an Indian pilot... I have no doubt that he would have written a mini-thesis assuring us all that PAF is crap

I said this in another thread: whether he likes it or not, [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] is a living legacy of those people who hated the idea of creation of Pakistan. And I am glad he posts at PP, this way, at least me and we all have a confirmation that people like him existed and still do exist.

Quaid and the creators of Pakistan Zindabad.

Pakistan army Zindabad.

IK Zindabad.

Also, I can feel that each day Pakistan achieves something, it's hard for the likes of him and they suffer real physical pain and have to recurr to mental gymnastics to assure that Pak will fail... soon

Yet here we are 1947 - infinity. Plus Ultra ��

In Sha Allah.

You are being a drama queen. Saying "zindabad" while the country's economy goes down the drain is not being patriotic.

The F-16 is probably the best non-stealth plane in the world. Shooting down a 1960s era Mig-21 is expected. No doubt the Indian Air Force should never have sent Mig-21s to confront F-16s.

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

You are being a drama queen. Saying "zindabad" while the country's economy goes down the drain is not being patriotic.

The F-16 is probably the best non-stealth plane in the world. Shooting down a 1960s era Mig-21 is expected. No doubt the Indian Air Force should never have sent Mig-21s to confront F-16s.

The economy part: we already got some Arab money flowing in

Regarding F16 part. In the spirit of this thread, I leave the verdict to posters and lurkers
That said, your whole history is a meme. Chapeau to Indian propaganda machine tho

 

[Bhaijaan]

As an Indian, i will be most happy to concede defeat in all previous wars if that means we can move forward and have cordial peaceful relationships. As civilians we should not boast about wars. There is no win in any war when you lose so much money, resources and human life on both sides. This endless obsession with wars and claiming victories is why we are here today. I take absolutely no pride in any war fought other than defending my country's sovereignty and freedom of my people.

- Bhaijaan

 

[amax]

8 times larger country , but cant have a decisive victory on western front add to this young and limping Pakistan was able to cut India from central asia in 1948.

 

[Mamoon]

if you had read the original post i never mentioned wars, i mentioned battles. there is an argument to say 65 was a stalemate, but thats not the point of the thread.

india is 4 to 5 times larger than pakistan in every metric (martial or economic), pakistan can only ever hope to defend its territory, no pakistani truthfully in this day and age would expect pakistan to win an expansionary territorial war.

i dont wanna derail the thread but pakistan lost bangladesh long before the army admitted defeat to india.

India's Armed Forces are huge in number, but we need to realise that they are not the U.S., Russia or China. The three greatest armed forces in the world with the capability to thrash all other countries to a pulp.

Technologically, India is not far ahead of Pakistan. It is still a third world country with massive, massive poverty.

 

[Mamoon]

No. In all his posts, be it regarding Cricket or any external matter, he always downplays Pakistan whilst bravado-ing India, consistently. Since day 1.


"Calling spade a spade"

The guy is a comedy gold, for goodness sake )

An example: in hindsight. If someone had posted a month ago that Pakistan have capability to defend its aerial border and God forbid capture an Indian pilot... I have no doubt that he would have written a mini-thesis assuring us all that PAF is crap

I said this in another thread: whether he likes it or not, [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] is a living legacy of those people who hated the idea of creation of Pakistan. And I am glad he posts at PP, this way, at least me and we all have a confirmation that people like him existed and still do exist.

Quaid and the creators of Pakistan Zindabad.

Pakistan army Zindabad.

IK Zindabad.

Also, I can feel that each day Pakistan achieves something, it's hard for the likes of him and they suffer real physical pain and have to recurr to mental gymnastics to assure that Pak will fail... soon

Yet here we are 1947 - infinity. Plus Ultra

In Sha Allah.

Pakistan can match India pound for pound in a stand-off/mini war (whatever you want to call it). PAF is one of the strongest in the world with a very high rejection rate. In terms of skill, PAF pilots are as good as anyone. In terms of technology and equipment, India is not far ahead of Pakistan.

The difference lies in India's massive man force. As a result, in an outright war, India would outlast every country except the three biggest military powers in the world - U.S., Russia and China.

Furthermore, typing Pakistan Zindabad and Imran Khan Zindabad from your keyboard somewhere in Spain/EU does not make you a patriot. If you want to be a patriot, come back to Pakistan and provide your services here. This country has suffered a lot due to brain-drain. The best brains in nearly all the fields end up working abroad, resulting in Pakistan losing its intellectual capital.

Based on your PP posts, you seem adequately educated and I think this country could use you. So when are you packing your bags and returning to serve the country that you claim to love so much over the Internet?

 

[Pak Warrior]

You are being a drama queen. Saying "zindabad" while the country's economy goes down the drain is not being patriotic.

The F-16 is probably the best non-stealth plane in the world. Shooting down a 1960s era Mig-21 is expected. No doubt the Indian Air Force should never have sent Mig-21s to confront F-16s.

Drama Queen for saying zindabad? That's ridiculous, maybe it stings to hear.

Pakistan Zindabad!
Pakistan Army Zindabad!
Imran Khan Zindabad!

 

[Junaid_ahmed]

Experience is a best teacher.
Unfortunately we do not have a trend of reading & writing.
How many of us have read a 'Witness to Surrender' & Haman Yaran e Dozakh' by Siddiq Salik. There is so much in both these books for any keyboard warrior to defend his country on Internet.
Lack of education & poor english skills is also the reason behind that we do not have stuff on our war history.
Let the civilians our Army men are too falling behind on this path. Most of the retired high profiles either left the country or may be just looking after their businesses, lands or cattle.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Ironically I read today in the UK Times today that when Pakistan took the Kargil heights in 1990's Vajpayee, first BJP PM of India, had to appeal to Clinton to pressure Pakistan to withdraw. Pakistan military always claimed they got the better of that exchange before Nawaz buckled under US pressure, but if you listened to the Indian media and watched Bollywood films, they turned that into a military triumph and derring do.

Having seen the media twist everything back to front in this one, does anyone really doubt that they embellished the recounting of the Kargil conflict as well?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I should add that the Kargil affair was a seriously stupid misadventure by the Pakistan military regardless of any short term successes they may have scored, I wouldn't defend it in any shape or form, just pointing out that India to tend to fuel misinformation.

 

[Salma_T]

Pakistan can match India pound for pound in a stand-off/mini war (whatever you want to call it). PAF is one of the strongest in the world with a very high rejection rate. In terms of skill, PAF pilots are as good as anyone. In terms of technology and equipment, India is not far ahead of Pakistan.

The difference lies in India's massive man force. As a result, in an outright war, India would outlast every country except the three biggest military powers in the world - U.S., Russia and China.

Furthermore, typing Pakistan Zindabad and Imran Khan Zindabad from your keyboard somewhere in Spain/EU does not make you a patriot. If you want to be a patriot, come back to Pakistan and provide your services here. This country has suffered a lot due to brain-drain. The best brains in nearly all the fields end up working abroad, resulting in Pakistan losing its intellectual capital.

Based on your PP posts, you seem adequately educated and I think this country could use you. So when are you packing your bags and returning to serve the country that you claim to love so much over the Internet?

[MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] is spot on in both posts re India and Pakistan.
What I would like to add is yes 71 lost East Pakistan but it became an independent nation and not joined India. That was the whole reason for supporting the movement as some said to me we lost East Bengal twice.

 

[Akki malhotra]

Drama Queen for saying zindabad? That's ridiculous, maybe it stings to hear.

Pakistan Zindabad!
Pakistan Army Zindabad!
Imran Khan Zindabad!

Ashraf Ali..! Yeh aisa khel kyu khel kr re hi ap.....

Pakistan zindabad hi isse Hume koi aitraj ni...
Lekin Hindustan zindabad tha.. Zindabad hi or zindabad rhega...
Hindustan zindabad... Hindustan zindabad... Hindustan zindabad

 

[ElRaja]

Technologically, India is not far ahead of Pakistan. It is still a third world country with massive, massive poverty.

but its economy can sustain war longer than pakistan's. hence why i don't believe pak can win an expansionary territorial war against india, which would require swift gains and very resource intensive deployment of supply lines.

fwiw as shown by recent events i dont think india could win an expansionist war against pakistan either.

 

[Napa]

Drama Queen for saying zindabad? That's ridiculous, maybe it stings to hear.

Pakistan Zindabad!
Pakistan Army Zindabad!
Imran Khan Zindabad!

Drama queen for saying "I said this in another thread: whether he likes it or not, [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] is a living legacy of those people who hated the idea of creation of Pakistan. And I am glad he posts at PP, this way, at least me and we all have a confirmation that people like him existed and still do exist."

Saying Zindabad is fine, but actions have to follow which will create a positive change. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results. IK is just the latest political figurehead put into power by the military like NS was in the early 1990s. At least NS showed some guts and refused to be the military's puppet, but IK shows no such tendencies.

 

[Junaid_ahmed]

The bravado of Pakistani posters in this thread is bemusing.

Since 1947, we have not won an inch of J&K and we managed to surrender the entire East Pakistan.

So what narrative are we talking about?

What defines winning a war anyway? Achieving the end goal, or is it simply a numbers game?

If it is the former, we have lost every war and comprehensively. If it is the latter, which I don’t think it is, we can claim superiority based our version of events and conforming to our biases.

We celebrate the 1965 war because we successfully “defended” Lahore, but what we don’t tell our children is that we had to retreat from Kashmir because we didn’t have the manpower and the resources to engage on two fronts.

Indian government lies, Pakistani government lies, India media lies and Pakistani media lies.

People on both sides of the border are taken for a ride, and they believe what they want to believed depending on which side of the border they were born.

Both sides are equally hilarious though - India wants the world to believe that they wiped out 300 terrorists and an F-16 with a jet from the 60s without a shred of evidence.

Pakistan wants the world to believe that they have pounded India in every war, but yet somehow, have failed to penetrate J&K and lost a big chunk of the country.

jo dekhtā huuñ vahī bolne kā aadī huuñ

maiñ apne shahr kā sab se badā fasādī huuñ...

For your brutal trueness.

 

[K4Kohli]

Yes . Pakistan won all wars against India but it was covered up by the biased Indian media.
Not only that, pakistan have already occupied the whole of J&K way back in 1948 but the biased indian media is not showing the truth.
And also Pakistan won the 1971 war and captured almost 100,000 indian soldiers.
Till today, they are controlling East Pakistan but indian media is showing fake news about a non existent country called Bangladesh.

Hindustan media murdabad.

 

[ILcricket]

Yes
Every one of indian claims.
93000 pak soldiers surrendering etc

This must be POTW

 

[Pak Warrior]

Ashraf Ali..! Yeh aisa khel kyu khel kr re hi ap.....

Pakistan zindabad hi isse Hume koi aitraj ni...
Lekin Hindustan zindabad tha.. Zindabad hi or zindabad rhega...
Hindustan zindabad... Hindustan zindabad... Hindustan zindabad

Seriously lol ? I dont want to go off in this tangent as it's off the point I was making

 

[Pak Warrior]

Drama queen for saying "I said this in another thread: whether he likes it or not, [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] is a living legacy of those people who hated the idea of creation of Pakistan. And I am glad he posts at PP, this way, at least me and we all have a confirmation that people like him existed and still do exist."

Saying Zindabad is fine, but actions have to follow which will create a positive change. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results. IK is just the latest political figurehead put into power by the military like NS was in the early 1990s. At least NS showed some guts and refused to be the military's puppet, but IK shows no such tendencies.

No that's wrong, one should not be allowed to say Pakistan Zindabad based on Pakistans progress or change. Rather if one loves their country and is proud of it, it will bring a desire to progress and change the country for better. One should always say zindabad to their country. IK is not like NS and not like Modi. Both of them are flawed in huge ways. IK is the best thing to happened to Pakistan in a long time, the mans not corrupt, hes brave, has a bright vision, smart and has a positive world image. Pakistan Zindabad! Pakistan Paendabad!

 

[Napa]

No that's wrong, one should not be allowed to say Pakistan Zindabad based on Pakistans progress or change. Rather if one loves their country and is proud of it, it will bring a desire to progress and change the country for better. One should always say zindabad to their country. IK is not like NS and not like Modi. Both of them are flawed in huge ways. IK is the best thing to happened to Pakistan in a long time, the mans not corrupt, hes brave, has a bright vision, smart and has a positive world image. Pakistan Zindabad! Pakistan Paendabad!

You obviously want the best for your country and have great expectations from IK. I wish you well.

 

[Pak Warrior]

You obviously want the best for your country and have great expectations from IK. I wish you well.

Thank you, I wish you well also.

 

[Finisher]

This must be POTW

Thanks
Your military+Government+Media have been caught with their pants down in the age of social media.
Every single lie has been exposed.

 

[JoshNotHigh]

The bravado of Pakistani posters in this thread is bemusing.

Since 1947, we have not won an inch of J&K and we managed to surrender the entire East Pakistan.

So what narrative are we talking about?

What defines winning a war anyway? Achieving the end goal, or is it simply a numbers game?

If it is the former, we have lost every war and comprehensively. If it is the latter, which I don’t think it is, we can claim superiority based our version of events and conforming to our biases.

We celebrate the 1965 war because we successfully “defended” Lahore, but what we don’t tell our children is that we had to retreat from Kashmir because we didn’t have the manpower and the resources to engage on two fronts.

Indian government lies, Pakistani government lies, India media lies and Pakistani media lies.

People on both sides of the border are taken for a ride, and they believe what they want to believed depending on which side of the border they were born.

Both sides are equally hilarious though - India wants the world to believe that they wiped out 300 terrorists and an F-16 with a jet from the 60s without a shred of evidence.

Pakistan wants the world to believe that they have pounded India in every war, but yet somehow, have failed to penetrate J&K and lost a big chunk of the country.

Mammon you are one of my favorite posters here and you increase the quality of this forum by ten folds.
Its laughable how two countries which cant even feed half their population properly waste money on armed conflicts.

 

[Bilal_103]

As an Indian, i will be most happy to concede defeat in all previous wars if that means we can move forward and have cordial peaceful relationships. As civilians we should not boast about wars. There is no win in any war when you lose so much money, resources and human life on both sides. This endless obsession with wars and claiming victories is why we are here today. I take absolutely no pride in any war fought other than defending my country's sovereignty and freedom of my people.

- Bhaijaan

The people in the sub continent havent evolved yet imo. I think they will one day but who knows when that will be. Look at Europe and all the fighting they went through. Give it another 100 years.

 

[Stewie]

It looks like we are going backwards compared to europe though. Extremism and religious intolerance is getting worse with time. India is no better than Pakistan now. If Modi and BJP stay in power, its bound to get worse. I just pray that Pakistan continues to focus on economic development and do not fall to war mongering. I dont see the situation improving anytime soon.

 

[classic]

I truly believe that in the past 30 years India has had the upper hand in terms of creating a good image for its country throughout the world and it shows by the number of its citizens in top paid jobs etc. But somehow the tide is starting to change in Pakistan favour especially after having Imran Khan as PM.
Pakistan under him is in a better place for future growth and prosperity. InshaAllah. The tide is turning and India and Modi know it.

 

[slipcatch]

Why does it matter?

What will it achieve for a generation who is under 30’s, which is 60% of Pak population.

Absolutely nothing.

We as Pakistani need to stop talking about all of that.

Train yourself to be better than this.

This illegal aggression was brought upon us by a despicable, deranged, unqualified, ignorant and racist elected PM of a country to safe his seat.

As Pakistani that is all we need to highlight over and over while promoting a message of peace from both side of the border.

 

[troodon]

A little skirmish that Pak won and you guys question the result of all previous wars

 

[Finisher]

A little skirmish that Pak won and you guys question the result of all previous wars

Yes because of the enormity of the lies peddled by the GOI and its media.

 

[troodon]

Yes because of the enormity of the lies peddled by the GOI and its media.

Your own guy najam sethi exposed Pak lies and it’s on YouTube.

 

[Finisher]

Your own guy najam sethi exposed Pak lies and it’s on YouTube.

Proof?

 

[WhenSultansBowled]

A little skirmish that Pak won and you guys question the result of all previous wars

The first thing Pakistani army spokesperson said was along these lines: " we are not celebrating any victories ... there are no victors in wars ... " The look on his face was dead serious. You can Youtube it.

This thread was never about this skirmish or who won.

It is all about the accuracy perception that media/historians (both sides) create.

An evolution of mentality is needed for Pak/Ind people.

 

[Romali_rotti]

Ok let's all be happy:

Pakistanis: Yes you guys have taken down our Sukhoi MKI even though you have ZERO proof.

Indians: Yes we have taken out their F-16 per the photos of the F-16 missile, and bombed their terrorist camp even though we have no photos of this.

We are both right, GOOD, now lets move on.


Now to Reality:

It is now obvious that the BJP government wont sit still if a terrorists attack takes place in India like Pulwama like previous Indian governments. If something like this happens again in the future, it could escalate to an all out war. So what do we do here ? How do we stop this from happening ? Is it possible to build a friendship between the 2 countries so in case something like this happens again the issue can be defused without terrible after effects ?

 

[ecstatic_freak]

[MENTION=56933]ElRaja[/MENTION] being an army kid, I can tell you not to believe in all the propaganda that is being spewed these days.

My father, still alive Alhamdolullah, part of PAF 14th Squarden. He took part in the 65 war and was a colleague of MM Alam(also 14th Squarden). Oh, he is an eye witness to Alam's shoot out too.

Be proud of PAF. As my father says, "we took care of them". Oh did I tell you bout the Indian fighter jet that PAF brought down along with the pilot( some singh was flying it. I will confirm his name in the morming) Alive? And a Pakistani pilot took the plane to the base after downing it? Be proud of PAF !!

Now addressing your question, PAF pretty much neautrazlied their airforce in 65 and it dented their ego. I can confirm in the morning what base was it, pathankot or another but as far as I remember my father telling me, they attacked and destroyed most of the planes at that base, before they even took off !!

I grew up on stories of Alam and Siddiqui and all I can tell ya brother, it's a great feeling. PAF is something to be proud of and was the difference between them wanting " breakfast in lahore" and licking their wounds.

Latest war, extremely unfortunate but when it unfolded and PAF hit back? I woke up my father in the middle of the night. Yes I am not proud of it but that passion took over. You should have seen his face when he heard bout Hasan taking the mig down. I am not going to say what he said but let's tone it down lol it was along the lines " Ham laraye naheen chahte, 65 mien bhi naheen chahie lakin kia yeh Alam k beto k hotay hoay phir maghroor ho gaye hain? 65 bhool gaye"? Right after they caught the Indian pilot, when the videos surfaced? He wasnt happy man. Hes like they should return him. We are PAF. We defend !!

Now addressing the ugly side of war, my father still suffers from PTSD. I know it's not easy but we deal with it.

Hopefully, sanity prevails and they de-escalate but it if they are going to impose another war on us? PAF is still there and quiet capable. Be proud of PAF brother!

 

[ILcricket]

Thanks
Your military+Government+Media have been caught with their pants down in the age of social media.
Every single lie has been exposed.

including 93000 POW in 1971 & Bangladesh

 

[a_tahir]

including 93000 POW in 1971 & Bangladesh

Pakistani - "INDIA lost the match "
Indian "93,000"
Pakistani - "what do u want to eat?"
Indian - "93,000"
Pakistani - "u have cancer."
Indian - "93,000"

That's the only reply u have. Lol
Were u even born before 1971??

 

[ILcricket]

Pakistani - "INDIA lost the match "
Indian "93,000"
Pakistani - "what do u want to eat?"
Indian - "93,000"
Pakistani - "u have cancer."
Indian - "93,000"

That's the only reply u have. Lol
Were u even born before 1971??

Did you even read the post & person i was replying to ?lol
Are you still wearing diapers ? If yes, please let me help , go to post #3 .

 

[sshakir411]

The first thing you learn in a college history class (in the US at least) is to take all narratives with a pinch of salt.

 

[ILcricket]

The bravado of Pakistani posters in this thread is bemusing.

Since 1947, we have not won an inch of J&K and we managed to surrender the entire East Pakistan.

So what narrative are we talking about?

What defines winning a war anyway? Achieving the end goal, or is it simply a numbers game?

If it is the former, we have lost every war and comprehensively. If it is the latter, which I don’t think it is, we can claim superiority based our version of events and conforming to our biases.

We celebrate the 1965 war because we successfully “defended” Lahore, but what we don’t tell our children is that we had to retreat from Kashmir because we didn’t have the manpower and the resources to engage on two fronts.

Indian government lies, Pakistani government lies, India media lies and Pakistani media lies.

People on both sides of the border are taken for a ride, and they believe what they want to believed depending on which side of the border they were born.

Both sides are equally hilarious though - India wants the world to believe that they wiped out 300 terrorists and an F-16 with a jet from the 60s without a shred of evidence.

Pakistan wants the world to believe that they have pounded India in every war, but yet somehow, have failed to penetrate J&K and lost a big chunk of the country.

You are a spoilsport [MENTION=131701]Mamoon[/MENTION] . Pakistan 's credibility is at all time high now & every act of valor by PA which posters here say is NOT the Establishment since 1947 is a false narrative . Not just J & K , but i predict BD too being conquered under fearless IK & PA in next few months . Cheers .

 

[Badsha]

The bravado of Pakistani posters in this thread is bemusing.

Since 1947, we have not won an inch of J&K and we managed to surrender the entire East Pakistan.

So what narrative are we talking about?

What defines winning a war anyway? Achieving the end goal, or is it simply a numbers game?

If it is the former, we have lost every war and comprehensively. If it is the latter, which I don’t think it is, we can claim superiority based our version of events and conforming to our biases.

We celebrate the 1965 war because we successfully “defended” Lahore, but what we don’t tell our children is that we had to retreat from Kashmir because we didn’t have the manpower and the resources to engage on two fronts.

Indian government lies, Pakistani government lies, India media lies and Pakistani media lies.

People on both sides of the border are taken for a ride, and they believe what they want to believed depending on which side of the border they were born.

Both sides are equally hilarious though - India wants the world to believe that they wiped out 300 terrorists and an F-16 with a jet from the 60s without a shred of evidence.

Pakistan wants the world to believe that they have pounded India in every war, but yet somehow, have failed to penetrate J&K and lost a big chunk of the country.

I don't think most sensible Pakistanis claim they have thumped India but we have defended our nation so far well enough.

Yes we lost in 71 but that was more of an internal loss as much as anything. Besides, the idea of a country split like that wasn't natural to begin with.

We have done well to have defended our nation. India is a much bigger country, with a much larger force. Holding our own against them is a massive achievement.

 

[Finisher]

Did you even read the post & person i was replying to ?lol
Are you still wearing diapers ? If yes, please let me help , go to post #3 .

“……In 1971, it was certainly not possible for the 35,000 Pakistani troops in Dhaka to fight against the combined strength of 200,000 Indian army and the more than 100,000 Indian-trained Bengali guerillas.”

Another US congressman, Stephen Solarz, commenting on the War of 1971 in June 1989, remarked,

 

[ElRaja]

Why does it matter?

What will it achieve for a generation who is under 30’s, which is 60% of Pak population.

Absolutely nothing.

We as Pakistani need to stop talking about all of that.

Train yourself to be better than this.

This illegal aggression was brought upon us by a despicable, deranged, unqualified, ignorant and racist elected PM of a country to safe his seat.

As Pakistani that is all we need to highlight over and over while promoting a message of peace from both side of the border.

i think it will achieve something, a nation and peoples image is built by the history that is portrayed of them. i know black guys who hate that the dominant narrative of black history is supposed savagery and slavery, and how that effects the thinking of black youth today.

people build self images for themselves and strive to make them real. if young pakistanis grow up purely on the indian narrative of every nuance of that shared history, their self image will be warped by the influence of the narrative designed to boost the Indian self image.

there is a reason why so much money is spent on propaganda and promotion of specific historical narratives.

this thread is a great example, i simply asked a question whether Pakistanis might question the validity of certain elements of battles and engagements given how much the dominant narrator (in this instance at least) was found to fabricating, and literally every Indian has come on here and pretty much said you lost every war, shut up!!!!

there was no factual argument, simply a question of a shift in perception and look at the reaction of Indian posters, thus clearly some think controlling the narrative is important.

[MENTION=56933]ElRaja[/MENTION] being an army kid, I can tell you not to believe in all the propaganda that is being spewed these days.

My father, still alive Alhamdolullah, part of PAF 14th Squarden. He took part in the 65 war and was a colleague of MM Alam(also 14th Squarden). Oh, he is an eye witness to Alam's shoot out too.

Be proud of PAF. As my father says, "we took care of them". Oh did I tell you bout the Indian fighter jet that PAF brought down along with the pilot( some singh was flying it. I will confirm his name in the morming) Alive? And a Pakistani pilot took the plane to the base after downing it? Be proud of PAF !!

Now addressing your question, PAF pretty much neautrazlied their airforce in 65 and it dented their ego. I can confirm in the morning what base was it, pathankot or another but as far as I remember my father telling me, they attacked and destroyed most of the planes at that base, before they even took off !!

I grew up on stories of Alam and Siddiqui and all I can tell ya brother, it's a great feeling. PAF is something to be proud of and was the difference between them wanting " breakfast in lahore" and licking their wounds.

Latest war, extremely unfortunate but when it unfolded and PAF hit back? I woke up my father in the middle of the night. Yes I am not proud of it but that passion took over. You should have seen his face when he heard bout Hasan taking the mig down. I am not going to say what he said but let's tone it down lol it was along the lines " Ham laraye naheen chahte, 65 mien bhi naheen chahie lakin kia yeh Alam k beto k hotay hoay phir maghroor ho gaye hain? 65 bhool gaye"? Right after they caught the Indian pilot, when the videos surfaced? He wasnt happy man. Hes like they should return him. We are PAF. We defend !!

Now addressing the ugly side of war, my father still suffers from PTSD. I know it's not easy but we deal with it.

Hopefully, sanity prevails and they de-escalate but it if they are going to impose another war on us? PAF is still there and quiet capable. Be proud of PAF brother!

thanks for that mate. it would be amazing if all this anecdotal evidence could be collated to systematically illustrate this side of the story.

 

[cric_man]

As an Indian, i will be most happy to concede defeat in all previous wars if that means we can move forward and have cordial peaceful relationships. As civilians we should not boast about wars. There is no win in any war when you lose so much money, resources and human life on both sides. This endless obsession with wars and claiming victories is why we are here today. I take absolutely no pride in any war fought other than defending my country's sovereignty and freedom of my people.

- Bhaijaan

Amen to that brother.

 

[cric_man]

[MENTION=56933]ElRaja[/MENTION] being an army kid, I can tell you not to believe in all the propaganda that is being spewed these days.

My father, still alive Alhamdolullah, part of PAF 14th Squarden. He took part in the 65 war and was a colleague of MM Alam(also 14th Squarden). Oh, he is an eye witness to Alam's shoot out too.

Be proud of PAF. As my father says, "we took care of them". Oh did I tell you bout the Indian fighter jet that PAF brought down along with the pilot( some singh was flying it. I will confirm his name in the morming) Alive? And a Pakistani pilot took the plane to the base after downing it? Be proud of PAF !!

Now addressing your question, PAF pretty much neautrazlied their airforce in 65 and it dented their ego. I can confirm in the morning what base was it, pathankot or another but as far as I remember my father telling me, they attacked and destroyed most of the planes at that base, before they even took off !!

I grew up on stories of Alam and Siddiqui and all I can tell ya brother, it's a great feeling. PAF is something to be proud of and was the difference between them wanting " breakfast in lahore" and licking their wounds.

Latest war, extremely unfortunate but when it unfolded and PAF hit back? I woke up my father in the middle of the night. Yes I am not proud of it but that passion took over. You should have seen his face when he heard bout Hasan taking the mig down. I am not going to say what he said but let's tone it down lol it was along the lines " Ham laraye naheen chahte, 65 mien bhi naheen chahie lakin kia yeh Alam k beto k hotay hoay phir maghroor ho gaye hain? 65 bhool gaye"? Right after they caught the Indian pilot, when the videos surfaced? He wasnt happy man. Hes like they should return him. We are PAF. We defend !!

Now addressing the ugly side of war, my father still suffers from PTSD. I know it's not easy but we deal with it.

Hopefully, sanity prevails and they de-escalate but it if they are going to impose another war on us? PAF is still there and quiet capable. Be proud of PAF brother!

MM Alam commanded 11 sqn in '65. 14 Sqn was based in Dhaka East Pakistan both 65 & 71. Tail Choppers look up Kalaikunda 65. S/L Shabbir led that raid.

 

[ecstatic_freak]

MM Alam commanded 11 sqn in '65. 14 Sqn was based in Dhaka East Pakistan both 65 & 71. Tail Choppers look up Kalaikunda 65. S/L Shabbir led that raid.

You are absolutely right. I got carried away and mixed it up. In 60s, my father worked with him at Mauripur base. Alam was flying commandar (14 Squarden) at that time.

 

[cric_man]

You are absolutely right. I got carried away and mixed it up. In 60s, my father worked with him at Mauripur base. Alam was flying commandar (14 Squarden) at that time.

I am an Airforce Brat as well. Please give my salaam to uncle (your dad)

 

[Pete Rose]

whats there to question.
we won 65
lost 71, badly
lost a few skirmishes in the middle including losing the siachen glacier
we won the latest skirmish