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Do you see any point of an honourable defeat?

BreadPakoda

First Class Captain
Joined
Feb 8, 2018
Runs
5,411
Looking at Dhoni batting these days, he looks ok losing while chasing. Nudges around, misses a few, gets to a 30-40, meanwhile allowing the team to lose the game. He shows no urgency even if the RRR reaches 15+.

I remember Tamil Iqbal scoring a slow 100 against India in 2011 WC and being content with a loss.

Do you see any point of an honourable defeat?
 
Well, the way I play sports is, you do what you can to win until it's no longer possible to win. At that point, reduce the deficit, and take an honourable defeat.
 
Only if the difference between the quality of teams is too big.. E.g. Pakistan football team losing 1-0 to full strength German football team is a very honourable defeat..

In any other case there is no such tmhingnas honourable defeat.. Either you win or you lose margin does not matter..
 
NRR is a huge factor in the IPL as invariably teams finish on the same number of points as it's a pretty long tournament.

Secondly, the insane thing about Dhoni's innings was that he was actually backing himself to knock those runs off and win the thing. Almost did it too, and if not for Jadeja and his back, he would have.

Apart from that a honorable defeat is ALWAYS preferable to the alternative. Ask you Indian buds about the CT Final if you'd like a definitive answer on that.
 
Looking at Dhoni batting these days, he looks ok losing while chasing. Nudges around, misses a few, gets to a 30-40, meanwhile allowing the team to lose the game. He shows no urgency even if the RRR reaches 15+.

I remember Tamil Iqbal scoring a slow 100 against India in 2011 WC and being content with a loss.

Do you see any point of an honourable defeat?

An honourable defeat is one that is competitive, the scenarios you describe are selfish, not competitive.

A true honourable defeat, for example Sri Lanka v Pak in the CT, is absolutely fine. If you try your best and don't succeed, so what? There is no harm and no shame in that.
 
NRR is a huge factor in the IPL as invariably teams finish on the same number of points as it's a pretty long tournament.

Secondly, the insane thing about Dhoni's innings was that he was actually backing himself to knock those runs off and win the thing. Almost did it too, and if not for Jadeja and his back, he would have.

Apart from that a honorable defeat is ALWAYS preferable to the alternative. Ask you Indian buds about the CT Final if you'd like a definitive answer on that.

Interesting bit in the end. Would Indians have preferred a 280-6 in 50 overs (with no intention to win) over what transpired that day? It would still have been a defeat.
 
An honourable defeat is one that is competitive, the scenarios you describe are selfish, not competitive.

A true honourable defeat, for example Sri Lanka v Pak in the CT, is absolutely fine. If you try your best and don't succeed, so what? There is no harm and no shame in that.

I’m referring to the other ones. The ones where the batsman show no attempts to chase the target but prefer getting close in the end with wickets in hand. Something like a 280-5 chasing 360.
 
I’m referring to the other ones. The ones where the batsman show no attempts to chase the target but prefer getting close in the end with wickets in hand. Something like a 280-5 chasing 360.

That isn't honourable, it is literally opposite the definition of the word haha

I think you mean selfish defeats.
 
Interesting bit in the end. Would Indians have preferred a 280-6 in 50 overs (with no intention to win) over what transpired that day? It would still have been a defeat.

I’m referring to the other ones. The ones where the batsman show no attempts to chase the target but prefer getting close in the end with wickets in hand. Something like a 280-5 chasing 360.

It's tough to say. Gotta probably ask the Indians. In fact, I actually think that if they had played conservatively for 20 overs and then took things on, they might have chased it. They have the hitting power later to even score 100 off the last 10 easy peasy.

They definitely underestimated Pakistan that day; there was this telling moment for me in the second or third ball that Kohli faced off Amir before he knicked the first one. He played it back to Amir, who took it and mock-threw it towards the batsman's stumps. Kohli was just smiling looking at him like 'why the drama bro', almost casually while Amir looked like Kohli had slapped him mom. The intensity difference was stark. Don't think India countenanced the kind of Pakistan that turned up that day; a polar opposite of the meek version that almost looked at the Indian stars in awe over the past few meetings. It was great to see that fire that tells me that India-Pakistan contests are now back on even-keel after a period in which we just made up the numbers simply because of our attitudes.

I guess that's the shift from Dhoni to Kohli. Dhoni would have chosen to take the game deep, Kohli looks to dominate. It's great when it comes off, but there was a reason India rarely got humiliated very often under Dhoni. He was a percentage master who would back himself to take it to a quasi-impossible situation and then hold his nerve. That's why what happened in the IPL today was truly vintage.

Anyways sorry I went on a tangent but felt that was an illustrative point.
 
It's tough to say. Gotta probably ask the Indians. In fact, I actually think that if they had played conservatively for 20 overs and then took things on, they might have chased it. They have the hitting power later to even score 100 off the last 10 easy peasy.

They definitely underestimated Pakistan that day; there was this telling moment for me in the second or third ball that Kohli faced off Amir before he knicked the first one. He played it back to Amir, who took it and mock-threw it towards the batsman's stumps. Kohli was just smiling looking at him like 'why the drama bro', almost casually while Amir looked like Kohli had slapped him mom. The intensity difference was stark. Don't think India countenanced the kind of Pakistan that turned up that day; a polar opposite of the meek version that almost looked at the Indian stars in awe over the past few meetings. It was great to see that fire that tells me that India-Pakistan contests are now back on even-keel after a period in which we just made up the numbers simply because of our attitudes.

I guess that's the shift from Dhoni to Kohli. Dhoni would have chosen to take the game deep, Kohli looks to dominate. It's great when it comes off, but there was a reason India rarely got humiliated very often under Dhoni. He was a percentage master who would back himself to take it to a quasi-impossible situation and then hold his nerve. That's why what happened in the IPL today was truly vintage.

Anyways sorry I went on a tangent but felt that was an illustrative point.

commentary:

Mohammad Amir to Kohli, no run, pitches it up on off stump, Kohli drills it back to the bowler and Amir collects it himself and aims a throw. The Indian captain, grinning all the way, brings up a hand to say "stop, let's not go overboard".

Next ball he edged once twice and gone. It was truly a day when it all went our way, cause India were overwhelming favorites even with the 338 on board as the pedigree ODI side in the world. The fact that we beat the odds is what makes that even more special.
 
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It's tough to say. Gotta probably ask the Indians. In fact, I actually think that if they had played conservatively for 20 overs and then took things on, they might have chased it. They have the hitting power later to even score 100 off the last 10 easy peasy.

They definitely underestimated Pakistan that day; there was this telling moment for me in the second or third ball that Kohli faced off Amir before he knicked the first one. He played it back to Amir, who took it and mock-threw it towards the batsman's stumps. Kohli was just smiling looking at him like 'why the drama bro', almost casually while Amir looked like Kohli had slapped him mom. The intensity difference was stark. Don't think India countenanced the kind of Pakistan that turned up that day; a polar opposite of the meek version that almost looked at the Indian stars in awe over the past few meetings. It was great to see that fire that tells me that India-Pakistan contests are now back on even-keel after a period in which we just made up the numbers simply because of our attitudes.

I guess that's the shift from Dhoni to Kohli. Dhoni would have chosen to take the game deep, Kohli looks to dominate. It's great when it comes off, but there was a reason India rarely got humiliated very often under Dhoni. He was a percentage master who would back himself to take it to a quasi-impossible situation and then hold his nerve. That's why what happened in the IPL today was truly vintage.

Anyways sorry I went on a tangent but felt that was an illustrative point.
Two wrong points.
1st tell me a match where india chased 100 in last 10 overs easily.
2nd kohli also takes the game deep. He is way better chaser than dhoni.
 
Unless NRR matters, I don't buy it. If you are chasing 400 in 50 overs, I would prefer to be 265 all out in 35 overs rather than 330/6 in 50 overs. If you lose, you lose, but go for the target and force the opposition to defeat you, don't throw the towel in halfway through to lower the deficit. Kevin O'Brien could have gone for a selfish 50 and accept defeat in 2011 vs England, but he went guns blazing and it paid off.
 
Honorable defeat is when you try your maximum to win and come up short. There is no shame in that. You've just been bested and that happens to the best and that's sport and life. Dhoni just came up short by a stroke and a ball today. He had every intention to win and it was his classic template to keep his wicket till the end and launch. He did and just came up short.
 
1.In tournaments NRR.Example in yesterday’s IPL matches both RCB & CSK we’re out of match by 15th over but they took the match to very end and salvaged NRR which will become crucial at end.

2.It will give more confidence to players.Getting beaten badly may demoralise players.
 
Honorable defeat is when you try your maximum to win and come up short. There is no shame in that. You've just been bested and that happens to the best and that's sport and life. Dhoni just came up short by a stroke and a ball today. He had every intention to win and it was his classic template to keep his wicket till the end and launch. He did and just came up short.

Honourable defeat is most of times you salvage a hopeless situation into close fight at the end.
 
Yes in a tournament like IPL it does matter. With so many evenly matched teams, there is very good chance that you will end up on equal points. It is better to have a good NRR rather than losing by huge margins.
 
MSD is as washed up as it gets. One fluke innings against the legendary pace attack of Mohit, Sran and trundler Tyr does not make him the best finisher.
MSD has been washed up for almost 4 yrs now. He can play a fluke innings once every 10 games. Rest of the times he will score 20’s and 30’s at 100 S/R.
 
MSD is as washed up as it gets. One fluke innings against the legendary pace attack of Mohit, Sran and trundler Tyr does not make him the best finisher.
MSD has been washed up for almost 4 yrs now. He can play a fluke innings once every 10 games. Rest of the times he will score 20’s and 30’s at 100 S/R.

Almost all of his "legendary" innings in the recent times have ended in a loss . And 90% of that losses is because of that "ATG finisher taking his time to launch " .
 
Almost all of his "legendary" innings in the recent times have ended in a loss . And 90% of that losses is because of that "ATG finisher taking his time to launch " .
I am saying for three years that Dhoni should bat at number 4 in odi, he has became old but still bowlers find him hard to dismiss, take his time then lauch for big.
I don't know why team management wants him to bat number 6 when we don't have decent number 4 and five.
 
Shameful display of batting from a rank 2 team. Are we gaining anything from saving wickets?
 
Boos ringing out now I dont think the fans see it thay way The commies certainly dont

Dhoni should have kept tuk tuking to the end to irritate them even more. How dare they disrespect the legend! :yk
 
he's getting some batting practice there.. he didn't much these days ��
 
Looking at Dhoni batting these days, he looks ok losing while chasing. Nudges around, misses a few, gets to a 30-40, meanwhile allowing the team to lose the game. He shows no urgency even if the RRR reaches 15+.

I remember Tamil Iqbal scoring a slow 100 against India in 2011 WC and being content with a loss.

Do you see any point of an honourable defeat?

That was anything but an honorable defeat
 
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