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Do you want Afghanistan to merge with Pakistan in the near future?

Lol both countries largely hate each other. Only way it can happen is if there’s forced occupation like British with india
 
Afghans are nationalistic people more so than many Indians and Pakistanis to a violent level, Desis are full talk , Afghans aren’t, merge with them at your own cost.
 
The urdu letter "alif" in Pakistan stands for Afghanistan. So this was a basic idea but it did not materialize.
 
Afghanistan no, but the Pashtun areas of Afghanistan yes. The "A" in Pakistan was for Afghania. There are more Pashtuns in Pakistan anyway, so it will be better for the Afghan Pashtuns to be part of Pakistan instead of Afghanistan. Benefit for Pakistan is a troublesome neighbor is gone.

Best way for Pakistan to annex the Pashtun areas of Afghanistan is to offer a referendum in the Pakistani Pashtun areas giving them a chance to join Afghanistan or stay with Pakistan. In return Afghanistan has to hold one on there side as well. There is zero chance Pakistani Pashtuns want to leave Pakistan but maybe Afghan Pashtuns might choose Pakistan.
 
Afghans are nationalistic people more so than many Indians and Pakistanis to a violent level, Desis are full talk , Afghans aren’t, merge with them at your own cost.

Historically Afghan only referred to Pashtun (pathan) people. The Tajiks, Uzebks, Hazaras, etc are not real Afghans. Besides from the Pashto speaking Pashtuns in Pakistan there are millions of non pashto speaking pathans or people of mixed pathan heritage in Pakistan. Most famous example would be Imran Khan.

So there could be a chance that the Pashtuns would want to join Pakistan.
 
Don't see it happening soon. Relation between two nations aren't great currently.
 
No, but some kinda US-Canada type relationship would be nice and for that there would need to be a lot of work and trust-building.
 
The urdu letter "alif" in Pakistan stands for Afghanistan. So this was a basic idea but it did not materialize.

Afghania didn't signify Afghanistan but the Northwest Province which went on to become KP.
 
Afghanistan as a seoarate entity existed long before pakistan. Why will they let go off their identity?
 
Heck no, we already shot ourselves on the foot by taking in so many Afghan refugees. Why can't Pakistan just think about improving the life of its citizens for once.
 
Not with the current status quo. If the Afghans learn to be non violent and civil then some sort of union can be considered. Generally even the Pak Pathans in KPK are very backward and have a very oppressive culture. For this reason it will take a lot of convincing for Pak to consider such a scenario. The benefits will be that Central Asia will open up to us. There are many Tajiks and Uzbeks in Pak as well which can create further problems for Pak.
 
The urdu letter "alif" in Pakistan stands for Afghanistan. So this was a basic idea but it did not materialize.

Does that mean Laila stood for Pakistan.

Amazing never knew that

It used to be my favourite show as a kid
 
Some responses are so patronizing it is funny. As if Afghanistan is desperate to merge with us and we are playing hard to get.
 
Afghanistan as a seoarate entity existed long before pakistan. Why will they let go off their identity?

when people are trying to decentralize within countries - why go the opposite way.

Nation state idea was good once. Now its every man for himself.
 
Some responses are so patronizing it is funny. As if Afghanistan is desperate to merge with us and we are playing hard to get.

Do you even know what Afghanistan is like nowadays?
It's a war torn country
They proposed to join pakistan in 1954. If the situation there worsens, they'll ask again
 
Do you even know what Afghanistan is like nowadays?
It's a war torn country
They proposed to join pakistan in 1954. If the situation there worsens, they'll ask again

They are more likely to demand abolition of Durand line and claim areas which are now part of Pakistan than ask for a merger (which has been their official position all along). As for the situation in Afghanistan getting worse, how much worse can it get than it already is or has been since the soviet invasion and how would merging with Pakistan help? Nations states don’t merge with others just because they are war-torn or impoverished and Afghans have a separate identity for which they have fought for the last 50 years.
 
No thanks, Pakistan and Afghanistan shouldn't merge. Afghanis are proud people so let them stay in their own country.

I think Indian Punjab should merge with Pakistan instead. At least the sikh majority areas. Most Pakistanis have more in common with sikhs. And Pakistan Punjab has sikh holy sites.
 
Afghanistan as a seoarate entity existed long before pakistan. Why will they let go off their identity?

They're talking about a merger not Pakistan absorbing Afghanistan, something like the Austro-Hungarian empire. Speaking of identity, Sikkim among many other states in India had identities long before they were annexed by India.
 
Why? Pakistan has gone through terrorism for so many years, and you want to merge it with an even more violent an chaotic nation?

It's like adding fuel to fire.
 
Afghanistan as a seoarate entity existed long before pakistan. Why will they let go off their identity?

If you go by that logic, then the other parts of Pakistan which weren't considered Afghanistan would be India. Are you happy to see Punjab and Sindh rejoin India along with of course Bangladesh?

Do tell.
 
Afghans are nationalistic people more so than many Indians and Pakistanis to a violent level, Desis are full talk , Afghans aren’t, merge with them at your own cost.

Growing up amongst many Afghans, I've observed that most Afghan nationalists are usually Pashtuns. I've met Afghan Tajiks, Uzbeks and Hazaras who do identify themselves as Afghans but aren't particularly nationalistic.
 
If you go by that logic, then the other parts of Pakistan which weren't considered Afghanistan would be India. Are you happy to see Punjab and Sindh rejoin India along with of course Bangladesh?

Do tell.

Those regions had an independent identity long before the indian federation formed
 
Why are people so surprised with my question??
It could actually happen in the next 100 years
The idea has already been proposed.
It's not something that I've completely made up
 
Wel, this will happen in future, Afghanistan will merge with Pakistan. Pashtuns will always be a part of Pakistan- I have nothing but respect for them (Don't get tricked by these PTM types).
 
I guess taking in teh Pushtun areas won't be so bad.The pashtuns wont feet so under represented and will finally bring prosperity to their region . The way things are , right now is probably the best time to make a move .
 
Some responses are so patronizing it is funny. As if Afghanistan is desperate to merge with us and we are playing hard to get.

Millions more Afghans will be willing to join Pak then the other way around. They are hundreds times in a greater mess then we are living in that landlocked hell hole and war zone. Millions of them are already in Pak, by comparison how many of our people live there? Other then a route to Central Asia that we can do without they have nothing else to offer us.
 
Pakistan has to make Afghanistan part of Greater Pakistan. It is needed now more than ever. Afghanistan as nation is unfit and has been used as pad for offensive attacks to undermine the economy of Pakistan.

Afghanistan as nation can’t be trusted for its survival. It is not fantasy but rather necessary.
 
Yesterday I watched marathon Afghanistan documentaries for like 6 hours.

What I understood is that leave Afghans alone. They will never accept any kind of foreign rule. They are okay with only a Pashtun leader from their own land.

It’s in the interest of every country to not meddle in Afghanistan people.
 
Yesterday I watched marathon Afghanistan documentaries for like 6 hours.

What I understood is that leave Afghans alone. They will never accept any kind of foreign rule. They are okay with only a Pashtun leader from their own land.

It’s in the interest of every country to not meddle in Afghanistan people.

The Tajiks, Hazaras and other ethnic groups who make up 50-60% of the pop. wouldn't be happy with just a pashtun leader. I'm not sure if you're aware but Afghanistan is a very multi-ethnic country.
 
The Tajiks, Hazaras and other ethnic groups who make up 50-60% of the pop. wouldn't be happy with just a pashtun leader. I'm not sure if you're aware but Afghanistan is a very multi-ethnic country.

I understand that part. But what Pashtuns did to British in 18th century and then to Soviets in 80’s shows that they are ultra patriotic and their pride in their tribal culture far exceeds everything.

Hazaras and Tajiks seemed to be very mellow type laid back fellas. Pashtuns are a different beast.
 
Just like how Pakistanis laugh at akhand bharat dreams from some indians, afghans would laugh at this pipe dream from some pakistanis.

Different nations altogether.

Afghans dont like pakistan or pakistanis at all. Likewise, pakistanis now dont like afghans much.

Best case scenario there are friendly relations and visa free travel between the two countries like between canada and the states.
 
I understand that part. But what Pashtuns did to British in 18th century and then to Soviets in 80’s shows that they are ultra patriotic and their pride in their tribal culture far exceeds everything.

Hazaras and Tajiks seemed to be very mellow type laid back fellas. Pashtuns are a different beast.

Well you're far from wrong, Tajiks and Hazaras are also very aggressive and can hold their own - the civil wars in Afghanistan have been very violent, Afghanistan's own warheroes like Ahmad Shah Massoud were Tajik, the PDPA was mostly Tajik and with the soviets they committed many warcrimes in southern and eastern Afghanistan against Pashtuns. The Hazaras had their own militias that fought and were responsible for a couple of massacres, the Uzbeks have always had their own militant groups - Dostum who is currently the Vice President of Afghanistan was a warlord - many of them are guilty of mass murder and rape (of both genders).
 
Well you're far from wrong, Tajiks and Hazaras are also very aggressive and can hold their own - the civil wars in Afghanistan have been very violent, Afghanistan's own warheroes like Ahmad Shah Massoud were Tajik, the PDPA was mostly Tajik and with the soviets they committed many warcrimes in southern and eastern Afghanistan against Pashtuns. The Hazaras had their own militias that fought and were responsible for a couple of massacres, the Uzbeks have always had their own militant groups - Dostum who is currently the Vice President of Afghanistan was a warlord - many of them are guilty of mass murder and rape (of both genders).

Thanks. The documentaries I saw primarily focused on Taliban and Pashtuns. They did show about Hazaras and Tajiks. But not in a fierce way. You guys know more about Afghanistan than a Southie like me.
 
Why would any Pakistani want that? Afghanistan is in a mess surely if a merge happens and borders open then it will create 1000 times bigger mess in Pakistan than what's it is currently. Why would any Pakistani want that?

100 years from now assuming both countries are stable and have good relationship, then why would there be a need for a merge if both are doing good?

I know it's hypothetical question, just trying to find logic in it.
 
Pakistan has to make Afghanistan part of Greater Pakistan. It is needed now more than ever. Afghanistan as nation is unfit and has been used as pad for offensive attacks to undermine the economy of Pakistan.

Afghanistan as nation can’t be trusted for its survival. It is not fantasy but rather necessary.

Not really, that's what our establishment was thinking in the 80s and 90s and it ruined our country. We need to get out of this mind set that world is out to get us and focus on human development of our people so they can compete in the global economy. Right now we have dwindling exports which is causing havoc to our economy and we don't even know how to fix that because we do not make enough items that can beat what China and other developing countries make.
 
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Yesterday I watched marathon Afghanistan documentaries for like 6 hours.

What I understood is that leave Afghans alone. They will never accept any kind of foreign rule. They are okay with only a Pashtun leader from their own land.

It’s in the interest of every country to not meddle in Afghanistan people.

I agree. Take all your refugee's in Pak back then shut the door permanently. Pak gets involved coz these Afghans keep coming across the border. Pak will reciprocate if Afghans stop terrorism and take all their people back.
 
Hell no!

But yes, good relations and visa-free travel would be great with a STABLE Afghanistan.
 
Not really, that's what our establishment was thinking in the 80s and 90s and it ruined our country. We need to get out of this mind set that world is out to get us and focus on human development of our people so they can compete in the global economy. Right now we have dwindling exports which is causing havoc to our economy and we don't even know how to fix that because we do not make enough items that can beat what China and other developing countries make.

If Pakistan hadn’t gotten involved, Afghanistan would be speaking Russian today and Pakistan would have been next. Both India and USSR back then had eyes on Balochistan for the long time. They needed Balochistan for their long-term pipeline plan and that backfired on them as Pakistan-USA cooperated together to collapse USSR into pieces which some of them got freedom happen to be Muslim dominated regions now.


When USSR decided to invade Afghanistan, the choice was made for Pakistan. Even now, the battle for Balochistan is still for grab but Russia is on board with Pakistan due to China’s interference that will see Gawadar Port as major link in the foreseeable future.

Plus with the involvement of USSR during 1971 that helped India to weaken Pakistan position and lose strategic regions like Bangladesh, there was no way Pakistan wouldn’t miss opportunity to take revenge. Indeed the revenge was poetic and Afghanistan is still speaking their local languages to this day, Alhamdulillah.
 
If Pakistan hadn’t gotten involved, Afghanistan would be speaking Russian today and Pakistan would have been next. Both India and USSR back then had eyes on Balochistan for the long time. They needed Balochistan for their long-term pipeline plan and that backfired on them as Pakistan-USA cooperated together to collapse USSR into pieces which some of them got freedom happen to be Muslim dominated regions now.


When USSR decided to invade Afghanistan, the choice was made for Pakistan. Even now, the battle for Balochistan is still for grab but Russia is on board with Pakistan due to China’s interference that will see Gawadar Port as major link in the foreseeable future.

Plus with the involvement of USSR during 1971 that helped India to weaken Pakistan position and lose strategic regions like Bangladesh, there was no way Pakistan wouldn’t miss opportunity to take revenge. Indeed the revenge was poetic and Afghanistan is still speaking their local languages to this day, Alhamdulillah.

I still think we could have cut a deal with the soviets.

They wanted a warm water port in balochistan. we could have built a russo pak economic corridor from gwadar to moscow, similar to we have done with the chinese.

in exchange they would not interfere in balochistan and invest in pakistan, like what they did in pakistan steel and have a more balanced approach to india pakistani relations

we could also have asked to split afghanistan, into two. one half with the soviets and the other half with us as a buffer zone, as part of an economic deal.
 
Afghans are proud people and I don't think they want to join Pakistan or any other country. They just need to stop the civil war so that they can rebuild the country.
 
Afghans are proud people and I don't think they want to join Pakistan or any other country. They just need to stop the civil war so that they can rebuild the country.

They have always been against the creation of Pak. Even before the Soviet invasion they were hostile towards Pak over their claim of the KPK region. Most Pak's do not want any merger with them either just stop all the RAW backed terrorism coming from there. These people will always keep fighting even when the Americans leave coz it''s in their DNA. In future years once the American's leave all their warlords will start killing each other for power.
 
I'm beginning to think this could be a serious solution to problems in the region. An Af-Pak confederation, two separate countries but common market, currency, free trade and movement of people without visa and maybe a military alliance. People in border regions can have a choice between Pakistani or Afghan citizenship like the Northern Irish have a choice between being Irish or British citizens.

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80R01443R000300080015-6.pdf
 
Afghans are proud people and I don't think they want to join Pakistan or any other country. They just need to stop the civil war so that they can rebuild the country.

The problem is, it's being a proud country that leads to civil wars. They are all different factions who are too proud to work under a different one. They don't want to join Pakistan because they want to claim half of it belongs to them, and the other half should go to India.

But actually it is Afghans who would have more to gain from union than Pakistan, I can't imagine any of the cities they want to claim would like to be run by an Afghan administration.
 
They have a separate nation. It's better for them, and mostly for us if they stay there.
 
No, but we should try to increase our influence in Pashtun majority provinces of Eastern Afghanistan so that it can become a buffer region between Pakistan and the anti Pakistan Uzbek, Tajiks and other persian speeking tribes of Western Afghanistan.

In future when our economy permits, we should deploy our troops in Eastern Afghanistan so that we can fight wars outside of our territory enabling us to keep peace and stability at home just like Turkey and Iran are doing in a volatile region.
 
No, but we should try to increase our influence in Pashtun majority provinces of Eastern Afghanistan so that it can become a buffer region between Pakistan and the anti Pakistan Uzbek, Tajiks and other persian speeking tribes of Western Afghanistan.

In future when our economy permits, we should deploy our troops in Eastern Afghanistan so that we can fight wars outside of our territory enabling us to keep peace and stability at home just like Turkey and Iran are doing in a volatile region.

What are you saying. It’s the Pashtun areas who are most rabidly anti Pakistan and don’t accept Durand lkns
 
We have already destroyed the social fabric of Afghanistan for USD. If our aim is to ensure that it wipes of the face of the earth, we should definitely push for this.

From Afghanistan’s perceptive, they need to look at Bangladesh and how they have thrived after getting rid of the Pakistan baggage. If Afghanistan wants a bright and prosperous future, they have to stay away from Pakistan as far as possible.
 
For anyone to want to join with Pak, Pak would need to improve their own economic situation.
 
What are you saying. It’s the Pashtun areas who are most rabidly anti Pakistan and don’t accept Durand lkns

Afghan Pashtuns are the only group who have relatively soft stance towards Pakistan and Afghan taliban largely refrained from attacking Pakistan despite our involvement in WOT. The hoopla that you see regarding Durand line and occasional clashes on border are because of RAW and NDS combo which is backed by non-Pashtun Afghan government. Afghan army is mainly non-Pashtun and they are the ones who are involved in skirmishes against Pakistan Army.
You will hardly see Afghan Pashtun tribesmen carrying out attacks on Pakistani checkposts at Durand line. Furthermore, relationship between Pakistan and Afghanistan were at its best when Pashtun(Afghan taliban) were ruling Kabul.
 
https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP79R00890A000300010019-3.pdf

saw this.

pretty interesting.

Maybe in the next 20-30 years, who knows?

1954 was a different time

pak has nothing to gain from merging with afghanistan, maybe some natural resources, but with it a grossly underdeveloped economy that would be a massive drain on the rest of Pakistan, a weak economy as it is.

pak should focus on self improvement, and some level of proxy control of afg to keep Indian interests at bay is the only strategic goal in the medium term.
 
1954 was a different time

pak has nothing to gain from merging with afghanistan, maybe some natural resources, but with it a grossly underdeveloped economy that would be a massive drain on the rest of Pakistan, a weak economy as it is.

pak should focus on self improvement, and some level of proxy control of afg to keep Indian interests at bay is the only strategic goal in the medium term.

problem is that stable civlization in Afghanistan needs breadbasket of Indus and access to seaport ,Pakistan needs a stable Afghanistan and some sort of loose confideration might be a good idea in ideal sitution but on ground there are many complexities including Afghanistan being a multi ethnic country , Pashtuns are just 40% , rest of Afghan groups are quite alien to Pakistan.
 
problem is that stable civlization in Afghanistan needs breadbasket of Indus and access to seaport ,Pakistan needs a stable Afghanistan and some sort of loose confideration might be a good idea in ideal sitution but on ground there are many complexities including Afghanistan being a multi ethnic country , Pashtuns are just 40% , rest of Afghan groups are quite alien to Pakistan.

people may disagree with my on this but in my experience afghan pathans and pakistani pathans are a world apart. most afghan pathans i have interacted with a deep hatred of pakistan and punjabis in particular.
 
Pakistan’s relationship with the various Afghan ethnic groups has been a fascinating journey since independence.

During Zahir Shah’s rule, Daud Khan was the real power behind the throne, and soon enough he overthrew Zahir Shah altogether. During this period, it was the Tajiks who were the pro-Pakistan ethnicity. Daud Khan was a bit of a Pashtun nationalist, was popular among the predominantly Pashtun officer cadre in the Afghan forces, and with NAP (the predecessor of the ANP) popular in the erstwhile NWFP and Bacha Khan still alive, the Tajiks in Afghanistan and the Pakistani state had something of a common foe. There was even a Persian element to this, because before the Arabization of the 70s and 80s and before the Iranian revolution, Pakistan and Iran had cordial relations, Pakistan was far prouder of the Persian influence it inherited from subcontinental Muslim empires, and the Tajiks saw themselves as a bastion of Persian culture in Afghanistan.

This of course changed following the Saur revolution, the Iranian revolution, Zia’s coup and the Soviet invasion all happening in quick succession. It was then that the Pakistani state managed to pacify and neutralize the nationalist Pashtun element, but also at the cost of antagonizing the Tajiks. Religion obviously played a major role, and the roots of this go back to at least the early Bhutto years: the state recognized the potential of using religion in Afghanistan as a counterweight to nationalism and the communism that was beginning to make inroads into Afghan political life. There’s the famous case of Gulbudin Hikmatyar and Ahmed Shah Massoud, one Pashtun and the other Tajik, belonging to the same same outfit at that time before their acrimonious falling out, being brought to Pakistan during Bhutto era for training.

Lately, there’s been talk of a fascinating development, and that is the rumors of Abdullah Abdullah, former Massoud ally and the most prominent Tajik politician of recent times, having made overtures and having achieved some sort of rapprochement with Pakistan. Have we gone full circle fifty years or so, with the Tajiks again being the Pakistani counterweight in Afghanistan while the likes of the PTM are the Afghan pressure group in Pakistan? Probably not entirely, but these recent developments add an intriguing subtext to Pak-Afghan relations.

As always, tagging the legendary @KB for his insight...
 
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Speaking of Abdullah Abdullah, I don’t know if he’s stepped down from his talk of establishing a parallel government after the disputed recent election, but when he made that announcement on Twitter, there were Pakistanis and Afghan Tajiks exchanging cordial, almost fawning pleasantries in the comments. This would’ve been unthinkable in, say, 2002.

Perhaps I’m reading too much into this, but when coupled with the rumors of Abdullah being in our good books again, maybe not.

If true, how do the boys plan on balancing him with the Taliban after the recent developments? Can they orchestrate a rapprochement between the two, or play off one against the other while Ghani is completely sidelined? It’ll be a fascinating few years up ahead.
 
people may disagree with my on this but in my experience afghan pathans and pakistani pathans are a world apart. most afghan pathans i have interacted with a deep hatred of pakistan and punjabis in particular.

Well my experience is different. I have seen all of these differences fall apart pretty quickly when taken out of their limited prejudices. I suppose that is the advantage of living in a multiculrural society.
 
Not even a single Afghan likes Pakistan govt. It's like asking for a war which would result in nothing but bloodshed. Afghanistan would have nothing to lose but Pakistan would have a lot and Pakistan is in a pathetic economic position atm and can't take over another street forget about a wholesome country with terrorists breeding in it.
 
If true, how do the boys plan on balancing him with the Taliban after the recent developments? Can they orchestrate a rapprochement between the two, or play off one against the other while Ghani is completely sidelined? It’ll be a fascinating few years up ahead.

Fascinating possibly to students of politics. For the common people it will be more deprivation, fear and violence.
 
Pakistan’s relationship with the various Afghan ethnic groups has been a fascinating journey since independence.

During Zahir Shah’s rule, Daud Khan was the real power behind the throne, and soon enough he overthrew Zahir Shah altogether. During this period, it was the Tajiks who were the pro-Pakistan ethnicity. Daud Khan was a bit of a Pashtun nationalist, was popular among the predominantly Pashtun officer cadre in the Afghan forces, and with NAP (the predecessor of the ANP) popular in the erstwhile NWFP and Bacha Khan still alive, the Tajiks in Afghanistan and the Pakistani state had something of a common foe. There was even a Persian element to this, because before the Arabization of the 70s and 80s and before the Iranian revolution, Pakistan and Iran had cordial relations, Pakistan was far prouder of the Persian influence it inherited from subcontinental Muslim empires, and the Tajiks saw themselves as a bastion of Persian culture in Afghanistan.

This of course changed following the Saur revolution, the Iranian revolution, Zia’s coup and the Soviet invasion all happening in quick succession. It was then that the Pakistani state managed to pacify and neutralize the nationalist Pashtun element, but also at the cost of antagonizing the Tajiks. Religion obviously played a major role, and the roots of this go back to at least the early Bhutto years: the state recognized the potential of using religion in Afghanistan as a counterweight to nationalism and the communism that was beginning to make inroads into Afghan political life. There’s the famous case of Gulbudin Hikmatyar and Ahmed Shah Massoud, one Pashtun and the other Tajik, belonging to the same same outfit at that time before their acrimonious falling out, being brought to Pakistan during Bhutto era for training.

Lately, there’s been talk of a fascinating development, and that is the rumors of Abdullah Abdullah, former Massoud ally and the most prominent Tajik politician of recent times, having made overtures and having achieved some sort of rapprochement with Pakistan. Have we gone full circle fifty years or so, with the Tajiks again being the Pakistani counterweight in Afghanistan while the likes of the PTM are the Afghan pressure group in Pakistan? Probably not entirely, but these recent developments add an intriguing subtext to Pak-Afghan relations.

This is a an excellent post. It is alert to the complexities of the Pakistan-Afghanistan relationship and the changing contexts which have shaped Pakistani strategic thinking. It also hints to the sense of anxiety on part of the Pakistan state that has influenced its policies.

But what I want to pick up on is the following:

There was even a Persian element to this, because before the Arabization of the 70s and 80s and before the Iranian revolution, Pakistan and Iran had cordial relations, Pakistan was far prouder of the Persian influence it inherited from subcontinental Muslim empires, and the Tajiks saw themselves as a bastion of Persian culture in Afghanistan.

This is a perceptive and interesting point.

I appreciate that I am going off-topic but it is worth adding here that we can also see the decline of Persian high culture in South Asia over a longer historical period.

We may turn as far back as the eighteenth century when the leading intellectual of Islamic revivalism in the century, Shah Wali Allah, declared ‘We are an Arab people whose fathers have fallen in exile in the country of Hindustan, and Arabic genealogy and Arabic language are our pride.’ It is in the eighteenth century that we see the first great flowering of Urdu literature which eventually paved the way for it to supplant Persian as a pillar of Muslim high culture. (This is, of course, notwithstanding that Urdu itself draws heavily on Persian). ‘No cultured North Indian Muslim before the beginning of the eighteenth century’ wrote the great Urdu scholar, Ralph Russell, ‘would have dreamed of writing poetry in any other language [than Persian]’. But in the eighteenth century there emerged amongst others, writing in Urdu, such eminent personalities as, Sauda, Dard, Mushafi and of course, above all, Mir.

It was a trend confirmed in the nineteenth century. Ghalib took the greatest pride in his Persian poetry but became most famous for his Urdu verse. As the reality of British power became an inescapable fact of life, Persian was replaced as the language of government and administration. The colonial challenge inspired movements for revival and reform including those associated with Deoband and Aligarh. Many Muslims began to look to the Arab world for religious inspiration. The ulama of Deoband, in the absence of Muslim state power, sought to fashion an individual moral conscience and knowledge of God’s word. There was, in this context, a greater emphasis on the revealed sciences and less on what had become associated with Persianate culture - rational sciences.

Turning to Aligarh: many of the early modernists of the nineteenth century were familiar with Persian high culture. But the winds of change were blowing. In the college Sayyid Ahmad Khan founded, he became aware that students were more interested in learning English than Persian. The next generation of modernists would not have the same grasp of Persian culture. Iqbal, though not an Aligarh product, was amongst modernists of his age an exception in that his doctoral dissertation was on ‘The Development of Metaphysics in Persia’ and in that he wrote some of his profoundest poetry in Persian.

Yet, even Iqbal argued that ‘the conquest of Persia meant not the conversion of Persia to Islam, but the conversion of Islam to Persianism.’ It was Persian influenced mysticism that Iqbal attacked the most for ‘the spirit of Islam…aimed at the conquest of matter’ whereas mysticism too often led to a ‘flight from it’.
 
This is a an excellent post. It is alert to the complexities of the Pakistan-Afghanistan relationship and the changing contexts which have shaped Pakistani strategic thinking. It also hints to the sense of anxiety on part of the Pakistan state that has influenced its policies.

But what I want to pick up on is the following:



This is a perceptive and interesting point.

I appreciate that I am going off-topic but it is worth adding here that we can also see the decline of Persian high culture in South Asia over a longer historical period.

We may turn as far back as the eighteenth century when the leading intellectual of Islamic revivalism in the century, Shah Wali Allah, declared ‘We are an Arab people whose fathers have fallen in exile in the country of Hindustan, and Arabic genealogy and Arabic language are our pride.’ It is in the eighteenth century that we see the first great flowering of Urdu literature which eventually paved the way for it to supplant Persian as a pillar of Muslim high culture. (This is, of course, notwithstanding that Urdu itself draws heavily on Persian). ‘No cultured North Indian Muslim before the beginning of the eighteenth century’ wrote the great Urdu scholar, Ralph Russell, ‘would have dreamed of writing poetry in any other language [than Persian]’. But in the eighteenth century there emerged amongst others, writing in Urdu, such eminent personalities as, Sauda, Dard, Mushafi and of course, above all, Mir.

It was a trend confirmed in the nineteenth century. Ghalib took the greatest pride in his Persian poetry but became most famous for his Urdu verse. As the reality of British power became an inescapable fact of life, Persian was replaced as the language of government and administration. The colonial challenge inspired movements for revival and reform including those associated with Deoband and Aligarh. Many Muslims began to look to the Arab world for religious inspiration. The ulama of Deoband, in the absence of Muslim state power, sought to fashion an individual moral conscience and knowledge of God’s word. There was, in this context, a greater emphasis on the revealed sciences and less on what had become associated with Persianate culture - rational sciences.

Turning to Aligarh: many of the early modernists of the nineteenth century were familiar with Persian high culture. But the winds of change were blowing. In the college Sayyid Ahmad Khan founded, he became aware that students were more interested in learning English than Persian. The next generation of modernists would not have the same grasp of Persian culture. Iqbal, though not an Aligarh product, was amongst modernists of his age an exception in that his doctoral dissertation was on ‘The Development of Metaphysics in Persia’ and in that he wrote some of his profoundest poetry in Persian.

Yet, even Iqbal argued that ‘the conquest of Persia meant not the conversion of Persia to Islam, but the conversion of Islam to Persianism.’ It was Persian influenced mysticism that Iqbal attacked the most for ‘the spirit of Islam…aimed at the conquest of matter’ whereas mysticism too often led to a ‘flight from it’.

Thanks. There's much to learn from this post. I'm curious though, are we sure Shah Wali Ullah was speaking for subcontinental Muslims in general, or more specifically about his own roots? He was Farooqi if I remember correctly, tracing his descent back to the caliph Umar. I suppose Urdu/Rekhta was still in the process of supplanting Farsi as the language of the educated Muslim classes in his era, or he may have been remembered for producing the first Urdu translation of the Quran instead of the first Farsi one.

I do see the point of Aligarh, Deoband and Iqbal all distancing themselves from Persian-inspired mysticism, at a time when they perhaps all yearned for a more practical, worldly-wise, almost militant (without the current baggage of the term) interpretation and application of the faith. I was immediately reminded of the Iqbal couplet:

Zara see baat thee, andesha-e-ajam nein usay
Barhha diya hai faqat zeb-e-dastaan ke liyay

We used to marvel at Iqbal's use of the term "andesha" here: it isn't fear, as it would usually be translated. It suggests an almost obsessive introspective analysis, the insinuation being that such an analysis introduced layers of complexity that distanced the faith from its practical origins, and had more to do with the Persian national makeup rather than the faith's more straightforward Arab reality?
 
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Another detail that came to mind just now: there was widespread goodwill for Pakistan in Soviet Central Asia prior to the collapse of the Soviet Union. I recall reading Olaf Caroe's book on this region, and while it was published well before the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, Caroe mentioned that the Muslims there perceived Pakistan as being an independent Muslim nation charting its own course, in contrast to Afghanistan which even before the invasion was inexorably falling under Soviet sway. I suppose they either disregarded the American influence on Pakistan at that time, or dismissed it as Soviet propaganda, or considered it by far the lesser evil.

The reason this is important in the Pakistan-Afghanistan context is because so many of the Central Asian peoples had ethnic kin in Afghanistan, and unlike the Soviet Union's Western borders, the links between, say, the Tajiks of Tajikistan and the Tajiks of Afghanistan weren't totally cut off: there was even a term frequently used, "Paar Darya," i.e. "From across the river," for Soviet Central Asians who had very recently made the move to Afghanistan across the Oxus/Amu Darya. Word got around, even across the Iron Curtain.

However, the Soviet retreat from Afghanistan and the subsequent collapse of the Soviet Union coincided with Pakistani influence in Afghanistan shifting from the non-Pashtuns to the Pashtuns, this goodwill dissipated quickly, among the non-Pashtun ethnicities on either side of the Oxus.

I guess everything comes at a cost.
 
Another detail that came to mind just now: there was widespread goodwill for Pakistan in Soviet Central Asia prior to the collapse of the Soviet Union. I recall reading Olaf Caroe's book on this region, and while it was published well before the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, Caroe mentioned that the Muslims there perceived Pakistan as being an independent Muslim nation charting its own course, in contrast to Afghanistan which even before the invasion was inexorably falling under Soviet sway. I suppose they either disregarded the American influence on Pakistan at that time, or dismissed it as Soviet propaganda, or considered it by far the lesser evil.

The reason this is important in the Pakistan-Afghanistan context is because so many of the Central Asian peoples had ethnic kin in Afghanistan, and unlike the Soviet Union's Western borders, the links between, say, the Tajiks of Tajikistan and the Tajiks of Afghanistan weren't totally cut off: there was even a term frequently used, "Paar Darya," i.e. "From across the river," for Soviet Central Asians who had very recently made the move to Afghanistan across the Oxus/Amu Darya. Word got around, even across the Iron Curtain.

However, the Soviet retreat from Afghanistan and the subsequent collapse of the Soviet Union coincided with Pakistani influence in Afghanistan shifting from the non-Pashtuns to the Pashtuns, this goodwill dissipated quickly, among the non-Pashtun ethnicities on either side of the Oxus.

I guess everything comes at a cost.

It is interesting to know that goodwill existed even before Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Brig Yousaf in the book Bear Trap mentioned that during Afghan jihad, mujaheddin under the command of SSG officers used to conduct hit and run operations inside the Soviet territory(bordering Afghanistan) and I used to attribute their goodwill to those acts.
 
It is interesting to know that goodwill existed even before Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Brig Yousaf in the book Bear Trap mentioned that during Afghan jihad, mujaheddin under the command of SSG officers used to conduct hit and run operations inside the Soviet territory(bordering Afghanistan) and I used to attribute their goodwill to those acts.

A strategic blunder the Soviets made during the early years of the invasion was the heavy use of Central Asian troops. Russian, Ukrainian and Belarusian troops arrived much later. Initially, the units sent over from across the border had Slavic officers, but the rank and file were heavily made up of Central Asians, which was of course because these were the units posted closest to the border. Not only were these soldiers Muslim, they were ethnic kin of the people in Northern Afghanistan. Furthermore, they had not had much training, and weren't exactly well armed. Consequently, they had little incentive to fight, and it wasn't unknown for a young Muslim Central Asian recruit to either sell his firearm or to defect outright.
 
Thanks. There's much to learn from this post. I'm curious though, are we sure Shah Wali Ullah was speaking for subcontinental Muslims in general, or more specifically about his own roots? He was Farooqi if I remember correctly, tracing his descent back to the caliph Umar. I suppose Urdu/Rekhta was still in the process of supplanting Farsi as the language of the educated Muslim classes in his era, or he may have been remembered for producing the first Urdu translation of the Quran instead of the first Farsi one.

I do see the point of Aligarh, Deoband and Iqbal all distancing themselves from Persian-inspired mysticism, at a time when they perhaps all yearned for a more practical, worldly-wise, almost militant (without the current baggage of the term) interpretation and application of the faith. I was immediately reminded of the Iqbal couplet:

Zara see baat thee, andesha-e-ajam nein usay
Barhha diya hai faqat zeb-e-dastaan ke liyay

We used to marvel at Iqbal's use of the term "andesha" here: it isn't fear, as it would usually be translated. It suggests an almost obsessive introspective analysis, the insinuation being that such an analysis introduced layers of complexity that distanced the faith from its practical origins, and had more to do with the Persian national makeup rather than the faith's more straightforward Arab reality?

On Walli Ullah, it would seem he was writing of the community more broadly. Annemarie Schimmel noted that "he always stressed the Arabic aspect of Islam." That he also "demanded...that the customs of the Arabs should be substituted for foreign customs."

On Iqbal, this is an apt couplet, with an elegant explanation of the term andesha.
 
On Walli Ullah, it would seem he was writing of the community more broadly. Annemarie Schimmel noted that "he always stressed the Arabic aspect of Islam." That he also "demanded...that the customs of the Arabs should be substituted for foreign customs”

Wow, that’s news to me. My (admittedly scant) reading of him was of someone firmly rooted in Delhi, the Quran translation (while still in a language of the elite) suggesting he was a proponent of indigenization.
 
We have already destroyed the social fabric of Afghanistan for USD. If our aim is to ensure that it wipes of the face of the earth, we should definitely push for this.

From Afghanistan’s perceptive, they need to look at Bangladesh and how they have thrived after getting rid of the Pakistan baggage. If Afghanistan wants a bright and prosperous future, they have to stay away from Pakistan as far as possible.

Bangladesh has achieved consistently high economic growth and has managed to establish a strong economy but there's no guarantee that will improve standard of living. Because the wealth gap in Bangladesh has risen heavily while there are still massive levels of poverty. Bangladesh is also effectively a police state that tramples on civil liberties, which partially explains how they got their economy in order. And then ofcourse it is riddled with existential problems like overpopulation, climate change-related dangers, natural disasters, an impending refugee crisis. Problems that are unique to Bangladesh due to its geography and very large population.
 
Question should be, is Pakistan able to control a region of multi culture that isn't ingrained from Inception?
 
Question should be, is Pakistan able to control a region of multi culture that isn't ingrained from Inception?

Pakistan has no need to merge with Afghanistan, simply having good relations and a co-operative govt in Afghanistan would do nicely. Some intelligence sharing to wipe out hostile proxy elements would go a long way to re-establishing a stable environment on the border.
 
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