Evolution 101

[Devilsadvokat]

Firstly let's discuss the giraffe in the room. No I am not having a giraffe. It concerns it laryngeal nerve.

One of my favorite examples of evolution and how we can see it in living things today: The laryngeal nerve of the giraffe, linking larynx to brain, a few inches away — but because of evolutionary developments, instead dropping from the brain all the way down the neck to the heart, and then back up to the larynx. In giraffes the nerve can be as much as 15 feet long, to make a connection a few inches away.

https://timpanogos.wordpress.com/2011/10/08/evidence-of-evolution-giraffes-laryngeal-nerve/

The above is evidence of Evolution amongst a ton of other stuff

Also did you know giraffes numbers are dropping. Apparently there are 14 different species if giraffes and breeding is rather difficult.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Poor Giraffes

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Poor Giraffes

14 species if giraffes and Noah (A.S) saved two of I would guess would be the same species, I guess they'd be in the cabin with the kangaroos who managed to hop over from Australia. No I am not mocking thus is what you actually have to believe, if you don't believe The Fact of Evolution.

 

[tonmoy]

It was a local flood. Giraffes originated from Eurasia. Learn the basics before starting thread after thread to pursue your daily obsession against religon. Do you like cricket at all?

Quick question,
How does local flood elevate to the height of mountain?

 

[KingKhanWC]

14 species if giraffes and Noah (A.S) saved two of I would guess would be the same species, I guess they'd be in the cabin with the kangaroos who managed to hop over from Australia. No I am not mocking thus is what you actually have to believe, if you don't believe The Fact of Evolution.

lol what kangaroos? The story of Noah is regarding how evil the people were, which is why he only saved animals and those who believe. This has nothing to do with evolution as it was a local.

I find your debates boring and you are lacking knowledge of the basics(of Islam). So there is no point to continue this further.

 

[tonmoy]

lol what kangaroos? The story of Noah is regarding how evil the people were, which is why he only saved animals and those who believe. This has nothing to do with evolution as it was a local.

I find your debates boring and you are lacking knowledge of the basics(of Islam). So there is no point to continue this further.

Again... How does a local flood reach few thousand feet above sea level.

Only way this can happen is if water become as viscous as a rock!!!

 

[Azmi]

Noah's flood was not local, but Global.
This was the position of all Muslim till this century. But after the scientific questions arose, then the Quranic Global flood was changed into local flood.

 

[DeadBall]

Noah's flood was not local, but Global.
This was the position of all Muslim till this century. But after the scientific questions arose, then the Quranic Global flood was changed into local flood.

Even if it was local why kill the innocent children and animals? There must have been many evil amphibious and water based life form that got away scot free. Doesn't sound like a Divine plan to me.

 

[shortbread]

Pi Patel: “So tell me, since it makes no factual difference to you and you can’t prove the question either way, which story do you prefer? Which is the better story, the story with animals or the story without animals?”
Mr. Okamoto: “That’s an interesting question …”
Mr. Chiba: “The story with animals.”
Mr. Okamoto: “Yes. The story with animals is the better story.”
Pi Patel: “Thank you. And so it goes with God.”

— Yann Martel, Life of Pi

 

[Azmi]

Religious Evolution:"First Human Adam was 30 yards tall. Afterwards size of the humans started decreasing till Prophet Muhammad, where this evolution stopped" (Sahih Bukhari/Sahih Muslim).


Scientific Fact: "Scientists discovered thousands of human fossils which are way older than Prophet Muhammad's era (i.e. 1,450 years). They are going back to 200,000 years. But you know what, none of them was longer than normal human beings of today. The Pharoah's Mummy of Ramases II (about whom Muslim claims to be era of Moses) is only 5 feet and 7 inches long."

 

[DeadBall]

Religious Evolution:"First Human Adam was 30 yards tall. Afterwards size of the humans started decreasing till Prophet Muhammad, where this evolution stopped" (Sahih Bukhari/Sahih Muslim).


Scientific Fact: "Scientists discovered thousands of human fossils which are way older than Prophet Muhammad's era (i.e. 1,450 years). They are going back to 200,000 years. But you know what, none of them was longer than normal human beings of today. The Pharoah's Mummy of Ramases II (about whom Muslim claims to be era of Moses) is only 5 feet and 7 inches long."

30 yards is 90 feet. Humans who just reach the height of 8 feet usually dies of various complication of the heart or other causes. Just the high blood pressure in the legs, caused by the sheer volume of blood in the arteries, can burst blood vessels and cause varicose ulcers.

Not to mention the sheer mechanics of just taking a step, as Haldane point out

"...consider a man 60 feet high...Giant Pope and Giant Pagan in the illustrated Pilgrim's Progress.... These monsters...weighed 1000 times as much as Christian. Every square inch of a giant bone had to support 10 times the weight borne by a square inch of human bone. As the human thigh-bone breaks under about 10 times the human weight, Pope and Pagan would have broken their thighs every time they took a step."

And that's just at 60 feet..


Instead of shrinking we have been actually growing due to readily available resources and other factors, same thing with age where people are claimed to live 900 years before but the average was way below today depending on the region and social status.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

lol what kangaroos? The story of Noah is regarding how evil the people were, which is why he only saved animals and those who believe. This has nothing to do with evolution as it was a local.

I find your debates boring and you are lacking knowledge of the basics(of Islam). So there is no point to continue this further.

How long ago was the 'localised' flood? However long the time was, even with studies of the 'localised' flora and fauna there should be a DNA bottleneck in the evidence, these DNA bottlenecks ate shown when the population of said organism is drastically reduced, like as in Noah's two cows, two sheep, two chickens, two ducks, two goats etc.

Even if you say what about these animals in the rest if the unaffected world? They weren't many, Middle East was the centre of civilisation in terms of agriculture, it _would_ show up in DNA record.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

I won't be taking part in any more of these threads, my replies are being deleted anyway despite them being polite and very much on topic. I shall leave the floor to you and your chums, no doubt it will end up the same as the others with reams of passages from Islamic texts and perhaps some form of link with child abuse being established.

The only reason you not taking part is because you are out of your depth fella. No one talking about the giraffe in the thread. And still you haven't enlightened King of the Logical Fallacies and WC's as to human evolution.

Don't bother replying if you can't do, and I know they say that those that can't, should teach but I'd stay away from that too.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

30 yards is 90 feet. Humans who just reach the height of 8 feet usually dies of various complication of the heart or other causes. Just the high blood pressure in the legs, caused by the sheer volume of blood in the arteries, can burst blood vessels and cause varicose ulcers.

Not to mention the sheer mechanics of just taking a step, as Haldane point out

"...consider a man 60 feet high...Giant Pope and Giant Pagan in the illustrated Pilgrim's Progress.... These monsters...weighed 1000 times as much as Christian. Every square inch of a giant bone had to support 10 times the weight borne by a square inch of human bone. As the human thigh-bone breaks under about 10 times the human weight, Pope and Pagan would have broken their thighs every time they took a step."

And that's just at 60 feet..


Instead of shrinking we have been actually growing due to readily available resources and other factors, same thing with age where people are claimed to live 900 years before but the average was way below today depending on the region and social status.

Everything is backward with religion.

Complex to simple
Man to monkey/ape
Adam to Aborigine

Add your own, I will when and as

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Did you know that both chimpanzees and Homo sapiens (no tittering at the back KLF of the WC's) have five million hair follicles, just that the hair on chimps is heavier and coarser, and all over whereas mostly on man they are ultralight and fine and appear non existant.

Did you know that?

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Did you know that both chimpanzees and Homo sapiens (no tittering at the back KLF of the WC's) have five million hair follicles, just that the hair on chimps is heavier and coarser, and all over whereas mostly on man they are ultralight and fine and appear non existant.

Did you know that?

Musing whether to have new thread entitled Did you know? Like why are all polar bears right handed? But I will leave the evolution ones here, excuse my talking to myself.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Did you know.

Of all the world’s species, humans and chimpanzees are among the only ones who participate in coordinated attacks on other members of their own species. In other words, both species are able to deliberately provoke a war. And in the case of primates, attacks are not caused by interference with humans, which was for some time wrongly thought to be the cause of the signs of aggressiveness displayed by these animals. What moves them to commit violent acts is in fact an adaptive strategy, as was recently concluded by thirty primatologists, based on the analysis of data gathered during five decades of research on conflicts involving chimpanzees. Attacks increase in denser populations and in those in which there is a greater number of males. And the victims are usually members of rival communities.

https://www.bbvaopenmind.com/en/eight-striking-similarities-between-humans-and-chimpanzees/

 

[Devilsadvokat]

A descended larynx, which allows humans to speak, evolved roughly 350,000 year ago. Humans also possess a descended hyoid one, which allows humans to articulate words. In contrast, the larynx in a chimp, for example, sits higher in the throat than in a human.

 

[PetroDollars]

can someone write or post the whole chain that led to humans, i know its bacteria, then fish, then frogs, then lizards but what comes between that and the apes

 

[Devilsadvokat]

can someone write or post the whole chain that led to humans, i know its bacteria, then fish, then frogs, then lizards but what comes between that and the apes

It's not a straight line from bacterium to human and as 99 per cent of all species ever existed are extinct, I don't have a few lifetimes to do the work for you.

Imagine a tree, with the upper branches having the apes, at the end of which are humans who don't need to evolve physically anymore because we can shape the environment to us, rather than us to the environment. Scientist do say that we will lose a little toe.

If you held hands with your father and he with his, it would work with my father and me, and everyone held the hand with their father and you went 70,000 generations back that mega granddad would be the common ancestor between us and chimps.

So from that mega grandad 70,000 or so generations along a different branch, you would get ti modern day chimp.

 

[KingKhanWC]

How long ago was the 'localised' flood? However long the time was, even with studies of the 'localised' flora and fauna there should be a DNA bottleneck in the evidence, these DNA bottlenecks ate shown when the population of said organism is drastically reduced, like as in Noah's two cows, two sheep, two chickens, two ducks, two goats etc.

Even if you say what about these animals in the rest if the unaffected world? They weren't many, Middle East was the centre of civilisation in terms of agriculture, it _would_ show up in DNA record.

Try working out when kangaroos were in the area.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Try working out when kangaroos were in the area.

Why kangaroos, let's stick to cows n sheep n chickens, DNA bottleneck, man you do have the temerity to poke fun when really you are displaying total ignorance if Evolution and proud if it, to boot, lol.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Do you reckon he saved only one rooster and one hen and all the fried chicken you eat were related to that rooster? The Genghis Khan of poultry.

 

[Bosanquet]

It's not a straight line from bacterium to human and as 99 per cent of all species ever existed are extinct, I don't have a few lifetimes to do the work for you.

Imagine a tree, with the upper branches having the apes, at the end of which are humans who don't need to evolve physically anymore because we can shape the environment to us, rather than us to the environment. Scientist do say that we will lose a little toe.

If you held hands with your father and he with his, it would work with my father and me, and everyone held the hand with their father and you went 70,000 generations back that mega granddad would be the common ancestor between us and chimps.

So from that mega grandad 70,000 or so generations along a different branch, you would get ti modern day chimp.

You wont need to "do the work". Others have done it already. The neatest exposition is "The Ancestor's Tale" by Richard Dawkins. This phenomenal book traces evolution backwards,ancestor by ancestor, starting with modern humans. When you read it you will also discover that the last common ancestor of chimps & humans existed 7 million years ago, which is far far more than 70,000 generations. Also, btw, there are just 4 giraffe species - The Northern, southern, reticulated & Masai. However there are a few sub-species.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Everyone on earth shares a single most common recent ancestor around 3500 years ago (source), and given the vast depth of time between this ancestor and the human/chimp split it seems reasonable to assume that the number of ancestors derived via this route vastly outweighs all other ancestors so it makes sense to conclude that the difference in number of ancestors between people is a small proportion of the total number.

I can link the source. What does Dawkins say?

Can sub species breed. I am asking, i dont know.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

You wont need to "do the work". Others have done it already. The neatest exposition is "The Ancestor's Tale" by Richard Dawkins. This phenomenal book traces evolution backwards,ancestor by ancestor, starting with modern humans. When you read it you will also discover that the last common ancestor of chimps & humans existed 7 million years ago, which is far far more than 70,000 generations. Also, btw, there are just 4 giraffe species - The Northern, southern, reticulated & Masai. However there are a few sub-species.

To be fair you werent saying i was wrong, just disputing how right i was. I should welcome your input, i can maintain my motto of never being knowingly wrong.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

You wont need to "do the work". Others have done it already. The neatest exposition is "The Ancestor's Tale" by Richard Dawkins. This phenomenal book traces evolution backwards,ancestor by ancestor, starting with modern humans. When you read it

KK of the WC's will be wanting each ancestor's name, address and email address. I don't feel proud but i have never read a non-fiction since i left university. I like to come to my own conclusions in my own time, everyday is a school day.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Tho admittedly I might have been wildly out with my figure of 70,000 perhaps it was 700,000 thousand as Google says 125,000 since first Homo species and that was 2 million years ago, still not a lot when you think about it, they say its only been 50 odd generations back to the fall of Roman empire.

 

[Bosanquet]

To be fair you werent saying i was wrong, just disputing how right i was. I should welcome your input, i can maintain my motto of never being knowingly wrong.

Sorry for the delay in reply, was busy with a lot of things; now on holiday.
Dawkins deals with evolution of species, not human ancestry. He is one of the leading rational thinkers alive today, a poster boy for the science of evolution & a total hate figure for the god-squad; one of my heroes for ages. It would indeed take about 700,000 generations to go from the last common ancestor with chimps till now (me & you!). Please read a few books by him or others eg Stephen Jay Gould & Daniel Dennett.
With regard to giraffes - some sub & even species have interbred in captivity. Not known to do so in the wild. Check out the Giraffe conservation website. Unfortunately they are definitely in decline. We see noticeably fewer now in South africa than I remember seeing even 20 years ago.
As far as most recent HUMAN fore-father (or fore-mother) is concerned the picture now being revealed by genomics is quite stunning. For a LOCAL population of a constant size it takes just 20 generations - 500 years - before you get a person who is the common ancestor of everybody in the population. You can read the entire article on the BBC website - by a biologist called Dr Yan Wong.

Happy reading.