From the heady heights of the 2017 Champions Trophy win on June 18 to today - what's gone wrong? how will it (ever) be fixed?

I feel we have become bit too negative regarding Pak cricket.
Babar is not captain material.
All we need is someone who can identify talent and be a little fearless in team selection and things like batting order and rotation policy.
And be a little strict on fitness, inshallah things will fall back in place
 
Luck plays a part. We had it in CT17 and lost it in WC24. The two games we lost against USA and India, we were in winning positions. With a bit more luck we could've been playing super 8s. It's also got to do with expectations. We played a semi final and final in the last 2 t20 world cups so the fans were expecting that we would go one step further. Ct17, fans didn't have those expectations.
 
Luck plays a part. We had it in CT17 and lost it in WC24. The two games we lost against USA and India, we were in winning positions. With a bit more luck we could've been playing super 8s. It's also got to do with expectations. We played a semi final and final in the last 2 t20 world cups so the fans were expecting that we would go one step further. Ct17, fans didn't have those expectations.
Lol, It's not luck.

2017 team washes this team 5-0, in all formats irrespective of whether they play odi, t20 or test.

The usa game only went to a super over for the same reason Nepal lost to SA from a winning position. Usa was schooling Pakistan left and right but ended up losing the plot in the final 5, Even then the fielding is so god damn poor, and the captaincy is terrible. Babar can't read the game at all.

It had nothing to do with luck, 2017 ct had luck in the early stages, but the semi's and finals were a breeze. This 2024 team isn't capable of dominating any team. It didn't even beat Ireland convincingly.
 
Lol, It's not luck.

2017 team washes this team 5-0, in all formats irrespective of whether they play odi, t20 or test.

The usa game only went to a super over for the same reason Nepal lost to SA from a winning position. Usa was schooling Pakistan left and right but ended up losing the plot in the final 5, Even then the fielding is so god damn poor, and the captaincy is terrible. Babar can't read the game at all.

It had nothing to do with luck, 2017 ct had luck in the early stages, but the semi's and finals were a breeze. This 2024 team isn't capable of dominating any team. It didn't even beat Ireland convincingly.

But what happened to the same team in the next tournament they played?
 
But what happened to the same team in the next tournament they played?
Wasn't the same team.

Imam is a massive downgrade from azhar. Azhar isn't that bad, he use to be and hence his stats were 21 avg with 65 sr. When he came back he was striking at 80+ and had an avg of 50 which boosted his career avg of 38 when he retired. Azhar maintained this consistency for a year against top sides whike imam stat padded against weak sides and got exposed everyone against half quality attacks.

We also had newer players like shaheen etc.

Lastly, 2017 had luck elements, I'm not denying them, however everyone was inform and you can see why they managed to win. They were a capable side that could have won. 2019 was the same, they were a capable side which could have won the cup, but barely managed to not make it into semi's.

Again key word is  Capable, Otherwise not possible to win every tournament.

2024 Pakistan isn't capable of winning anything by any means. Its a crap team with horrible openers, no middle order, the tail starts at no 3 lol, and bowlers are all run machines excluding Naseem who found his stride.
 
Think about it…one key difference in this journey of glory to ultimate humiliation

One player.

Think about it.
 
Hassan Ali ran riot in 2017 backed up by some other players.

It was one of the most complete performances in a tournament by a Pakistani bowler.
 
Misbah ul Haq did everything in his power to finish off the career of one player, in order to make his incompetent replacement work.

Here is the result. You all supported this injustice, you all deserve this humiliation now
 
It's simple, Wrong Selections -

when you select team based on favouritism/nepotism, social media pressure etc ,. what else performance do you expect.

I don't watch much cricket now, when I heard all the buzz around Usman Khan, I watched highlights of PSL, I never got impressed.

Iftikhar Ahmad, whoever thinks that this man is international material, I doubt his Cricket sensing abilities.

Shadab Khan, he was good at start of his career, looked genuine spinner - not anymore, he shouldn't be in the team, and what we did, we made him number 5 batsman.

Imad Wasim, these bits and pieces cricketers are mostly failures -- we selected unfit player for world cup.

Haris Rauf, he is a tape bowl bowler, I commend him for what he has achieved, but it's time to drop him.

Amir, I have always liked his bowling, but he wasn't fit to play world cup -- super over is testimony to this --
 
Great memories but what's happened after that?


And before people jump in with stuff about the current issues, let me remind you about what happened when Pakistan played the 2018 Asia Cup with very much the same team.
Pakistan cricket has been in decline for more than a decade now. CT17 was just pure luck and the stars aligned. Such things happen in sports Greece in Euro 04, Brawn GP in 09 in Formula 1 but the fundamental problems persist.
Pakistan has one of the worst W/L record among major teams in Tests and ODI. Overall strength wise Pakistan falls among SL and WI in the bottom tier of the established teams, which is getting encroached by Bangladesh and Afghanistan at a rapid pace. Gap between Pakistan and the next higher team is too large to ignore as a statical error
1718709458586.png
For ODI
1718709484979.png

For T20s, it slightly better because rest of the teams experiment in their T20 formats while Pakistan always go full strength
1718709541820.png
 
Misbah ul Haq did everything in his power to finish off the career of one player, in order to make his incompetent replacement work.

Here is the result. You all supported this injustice, you all deserve this humiliation now
Naw he did way worse.

Here are all his crimes as a coach.

1) Make Babar Azam Captain. He blamed the failures of Sri lanka on sarfraz even when in the interviews, the reporter outright claimed that it was Misbah's fault for changing the whole set up. To this misbah just replied, I am not telling right handers to bat left. Don't blame me.

If sarfraz wasn't a great captain in misbah's eyes then atleast replace him for someone competent, Babar azam has zero credibility in any situation? Even back then, what was on his resume?

Sarfraz's resume for Psl records and Under 19 win + various domestic league wins as captain?

2) Make rizwan an opener after fakhar was shoved to no 4, first with shehzad, then with imam and then with Rizwan.

Again why? It's not about stats or failures, it's about value, Fakhar's value is match wins if he kicks off so the focus should be to make him kick off more consistently. What's rizwan's value? What do you achieve by making or helping rizwan become more consistent?

If rizwan was failing in the MO, and fakhar was failing at opening then determine the value. Their is zero value in making rizzu consistent as he can't utilise pp or play to modern standards. Theirs more value in Fakhar becoming consistent.

3) Chacha as finisher. Again why? Chacha was a literal nobody in domestic or psl, no one knew who he was, if you mentioned chacha from 2015-2019, no one would know about him. Even devoted followers of domestic and psl wouldn't dream about chacha ever being selected.

So why was he made the ultimate finisher for Pakistan when he isn't even a finisher to begin with. Yes averages are not important batting at no 6 in t20, but SR is. His sr shpuld be astronomically higher for the position he bats in yet its surprisingly lower then even Bobby?

4) Also offtopic, this cake culture and players like jamshed getting bloated was started by Misbah as well.

Muhammad irfan, Rizwan, Chacha, Husnain and all these crapola players are Misbah's friends. That's why he promoted them.

As for Babar azam, he isn't Misbah's friend so I have no clue why he was made captain but my guess is, he just chose the famous star at the time cause sarfi was in Misbah's way.
 
We need a complete overhaul, go for the right selection -- show the door to unfit players, those who create division kick them out.

This is my personal views, we should go like this:

1) Fakhar Zaman ( he should grow up now)
2) Muhammad Rizwan
3) Babar Azam
4) Genuine Batsman (who can build innings)
5) Genuine Batsman ( who can build innings+ change gears quickly when required)
6) Batsman (hard hitter, who can bowl when required)
7) Bowler ( who can hit with bat as well)
8) Genuine Spinner (Abrar/ others ? )
9) Shaheen Afridi ( he should also grow up)
10) Naseem Shah
11) Amir ( if fit )

Reserves: I don't much about our pool of players. -- I know he failed big time, but I will still keep Saim Ayyub -- I watched Aamir Jamal in tests, he looks good. Muhammad Waseem looked good in last ODi world cup .(Rest I don't know)

We should select only those players who play 4 day games -- Selection based on 3- 4 sixes is totally unjustified.
 
2017 team was far more aggressive and positive. Pakistani body languages were better back then.

2024 team is quite timid. Team has become divided.
 
India Pakistan -ODI results since 2013 CT

CT 2013 - India won by 8 wkts
Asia cup 2014 - India lost by just 1 wkt in last over)
2015 WC Adelaide : India won by 76 runs
2017 CT league game : India won by 124 runs
2017 CT final : India lost by 180 runs (An anomaly if you look at results below and above)
2018 Asia cup (Dubai) : India won by 8 wkts (in 40th over)
2018 Asia cup (Dubai) : India won by 9 wkts ( in 40th over)
2019 WC (Manchester) : India won by 89 runs ( game result was obvious by 25th over)
2023 Asia Cup( SL) : Rain ..... no result
2023 Asia Cup( SL) : India won by 228 runs (Pakistan scored 128)
WC 2023 = India won by 7 wkts in 31 overs (Pakistan scored 192)
 
Hassan Ali ran riot in 2017 backed up by some other players.

It was one of the most complete performances in a tournament by a Pakistani bowler.
I am still amazed how that guy gave that performance, seems like a complete laddu bowler to me and he proved me wrong again in the last 50 over WC.
 
India Pakistan -ODI results since 2013 CT

CT 2013 - India won by 8 wkts
Asia cup 2014 - India lost by just 1 wkt in last over)
2015 WC Adelaide : India won by 76 runs
2017 CT league game : India won by 124 runs
2017 CT final : India lost by 180 runs (An anomaly if you look at results below and above)
2018 Asia cup (Dubai) : India won by 8 wkts (in 40th over)
2018 Asia cup (Dubai) : India won by 9 wkts ( in 40th over)
2019 WC (Manchester) : India won by 89 runs ( game result was obvious by 25th over)
2023 Asia Cup( SL) : Rain ..... no result
2023 Asia Cup( SL) : India won by 228 runs (Pakistan scored 128)
WC 2023 = India won by 7 wkts in 31 overs (Pakistan scored 192)

Anomaly just at the right time.

Anomaly that resulted in a silverware.

BTW, why did you start at 2013? Why not 2012 or before? LOL.
 
Cycle of a young Pakistani player:

Young humble innocent kid shows promise

performs in the odd series

Media hype him to the moon

Fans - this is the guy I tell you

Innocent kid sees $$$

No longer innocent, no longer humble this kid stops working on his game.

Fan base still glorify him

The now well off, delusional young man thinks he has a birthright to be in the team and/or captain

Fans still glorify him and are now forming cult.

The now delusional, petulant bratt is now a cancer to the team

The cult is stronger than ever

now older, less wiser and drunk on delusion leans on the cult to keep him going.

Pakistan waste another 10 years
 
No rocket science, that was a young team which was unknown and hungry for success. They became super stars and earned a lot of money, fame in the next 4-5 years. They were further spoilt by Ramiz Raja who facilitated the players too no end at the expense of the coaches and senior officials in the PCB and the players ultimately have become soft brats. It also didn't help having a paindu captain like Babar who created a feasting culture in the team where the team ate out at excusite resteraunts, cut cakes for every irrelevant achievement and the team's fitness has gone for a toss. Shadab used to be super fit in 2017 and now his fitness has declined very rapidly.

The team needs a stern headmaster approach which Gary Kirsten is promising. Our players are too dishonest, unprofessional to be trusted to their own devices in an honor system.
 
India Pakistan -ODI results since 2013 CT

CT 2013 - India won by 8 wkts
Asia cup 2014 - India lost by just 1 wkt in last over)
2015 WC Adelaide : India won by 76 runs
2017 CT league game : India won by 124 runs
2017 CT final : India lost by 180 runs (An anomaly if you look at results below and above)
2018 Asia cup (Dubai) : India won by 8 wkts (in 40th over)
2018 Asia cup (Dubai) : India won by 9 wkts ( in 40th over)
2019 WC (Manchester) : India won by 89 runs ( game result was obvious by 25th over)
2023 Asia Cup( SL) : Rain ..... no result
2023 Asia Cup( SL) : India won by 228 runs (Pakistan scored 128)
WC 2023 = India won by 7 wkts in 31 overs (Pakistan scored 192)
As a fan would you have rather had the anomaly or the other results?
 
2017 CT was actually a fluke. Bit like Chelsea winning 2012 UCL. Or Greece winning Euro 2004

I know many Pakistani fans take offence at this but it is what it is. Pakistan got lucky against Sri Lanka where Thisara Perera dropped a dolly. Also in the final Kohli inexplicably chose to field first - even though everyone knows Pakistan struggles to chase - and then Bumrah bowling that no ball. Also all was not well in the Indian dressing room - Anil Kumble was unceremoniously dumped as manager after the event - so there was definitely lot of friction between Kohli & Kumble

Of course Pakistan made the most of its good fortune but the thing is when luck plays such an important role, its difficult to replicate the same success repeatedly. As Pakistan found out in that 2018 Asia Cup

Unlike say Australia or England which won its ICC events on pure merit & hence maintained more prolonged duration of success
 
What a match it was! I still remember I was jumping all over the place after the game but never knew that the bad days of Pakistan cricket were just about to begin after that.
 
2017 CT was actually a fluke. Bit like Chelsea winning 2012 UCL. Or Greece winning Euro 2004

I know many Pakistani fans take offence at this but it is what it is. Pakistan got lucky against Sri Lanka where Thisara Perera dropped a dolly. Also in the final Kohli inexplicably chose to field first - even though everyone knows Pakistan struggles to chase - and then Bumrah bowling that no ball. Also all was not well in the Indian dressing room - Anil Kumble was unceremoniously dumped as manager after the event - so there was definitely lot of friction between Kohli & Kumble

Of course Pakistan made the most of its good fortune but the thing is when luck plays such an important role, its difficult to replicate the same success repeatedly. As Pakistan found out in that 2018 Asia Cup

Unlike say Australia or England which won its ICC events on pure merit & hence maintained more prolonged duration of success

Winning a trophy is never a fluke. By your logic, India's 1983 WC win was a fluke because Windies were the favorites.
 
2017 CT was actually a fluke. Bit like Chelsea winning 2012 UCL. Or Greece winning Euro 2004

I know many Pakistani fans take offence at this but it is what it is. Pakistan got lucky against Sri Lanka where Thisara Perera dropped a dolly. Also in the final Kohli inexplicably chose to field first - even though everyone knows Pakistan struggles to chase - and then Bumrah bowling that no ball. Also all was not well in the Indian dressing room - Anil Kumble was unceremoniously dumped as manager after the event - so there was definitely lot of friction between Kohli & Kumble

Of course Pakistan made the most of its good fortune but the thing is when luck plays such an important role, its difficult to replicate the same success repeatedly. As Pakistan found out in that 2018 Asia Cup

Unlike say Australia or England which won its ICC events on pure merit & hence maintained more prolonged duration of success

Luck favours the brave, Pakistan achieved momentum in the 2017 CT at the perfect time. The likes of Sehwag, Harbhajan mocked the Pakistani team after they lost by a big margin to the Indian team and Sehwag even made the baap, potta remarks and i am sure that lit a fire under the team. That victory was no fluke, we beat the red hot English team in the semis and then the red hot Indian team in the final.
 
Winning a trophy is never a fluke. By your logic, India's 1983 WC win was a fluke because Windies were the favorites.
1983 was definitely a fluke. Nobody expected it to happen. 1 year later West Indies toured India & just steamrollered them

See if that India team played West Indies 10 times, then West Indies wud have won 8 times out of 10

Same way if that Pakistan team played India 10 times, they wud have lost 8 times out of 10. Just like India did in 2018 Asia Cup & 2019 WC

That's why it was fluke
 
Luck favours the brave, Pakistan achieved momentum in the 2017 CT at the perfect time. The likes of Sehwag, Harbhajan mocked the Pakistani team after they lost by a big margin to the Indian team and Sehwag even made the baap, potta remarks and i am sure that lit a fire under the team. That victory was no fluke, we beat the red hot English team in the semis and then the red hot Indian team in the final.
There is nothing called " luck favours the brave "

Pakistan got lucky in 1992 WC due to that washed out game. Did that rain happen bcoz Pakistan was brave ?

Did Holland beat South Africa in 2022 WC bcoz Pakistan was brave ?

Did the USA - Ireland game get washed out bcoz Pakistan were cowardly ?

Luck is just luck. A random variable as we say in statistics

Again I understand why Pakistani fans will take offence as any suggestion that the win was fluke. But this thread is about understanding why Pakistani cricket failed to replicate that success again. SO this is dispassionate explanation. Might not seem palatable to hardcore Pakistani fans but it is what is !
 
It was a very bad day for India from toss decision to onfield approach. In a way that loss helped us doing some sould searching. That match allowed us to get rid of Ashwin/Jadeja and brought Kuldeep into the set up. Ever since Kuldeep became a part of Indian set up Pakistan is yet to beat India in any matches with kuldeep in the playing XI. He owned Fakhar every time..Bamboozled Babar too. India got more out of that match basically.
 
It was a very bad day for India from toss decision to onfield approach. In a way that loss helped us doing some sould searching. That match allowed us to get rid of Ashwin/Jadeja and brought Kuldeep into the set up. Ever since Kuldeep became a part of Indian set up Pakistan is yet to beat India in any matches with kuldeep in the playing XI. He owned Fakhar every time..Bamboozled Babar too. India got more out of that match basically.

Some good points but no ICC trophy since 2013 must hurt.
 
Some good points but no ICC trophy since 2013 must hurt.
Definitely hurts but beating Australia in Australia is adequate compensation

Test cricket is still pretty big in India & that win in Australia were heavily celebrated. That Gabba win was one of biggest moments in Indian cricket since 2011 WC win
 
Some good points but no ICC trophy since 2013 must hurt.
It doesn't matter. India has won ICC trophies before anybody else except Windies. Winning ICC tournament is icing on the cake. Not the cake itself. West Indies/Srilanka both won a tournament after 2013. WI did not even qualify for world cup 2023 and world T20 2022. WI sure would prefer a consistently performing team rather than winning an one off tournament.
 
Anomaly just at the right time.

Anomaly that resulted in a silverware.

BTW, why did you start at 2013? Why not 2012 or before? LOL.
Took last decade into perspective. That anomaly did result in silverware true but its still a fluke. A lucky fluke in other words
 
It was a very bad day for India from toss decision to onfield approach. In a way that loss helped us doing some sould searching. That match allowed us to get rid of Ashwin/Jadeja and brought Kuldeep into the set up. Ever since Kuldeep became a part of Indian set up Pakistan is yet to beat India in any matches with kuldeep in the playing XI. He owned Fakhar every time..Bamboozled Babar too. India got more out of that match basically.
It's probably the only loss that hurt me since Sachin's retirement. My perspective on cricket has greatly changed in the last 10-11 years. Loses don't hurt me anymore.
 
2017 CT was actually a fluke. Bit like Chelsea winning 2012 UCL. Or Greece winning Euro 2004

I know many Pakistani fans take offence at this but it is what it is. Pakistan got lucky against Sri Lanka where Thisara Perera dropped a dolly. Also in the final Kohli inexplicably chose to field first - even though everyone knows Pakistan struggles to chase - and then Bumrah bowling that no ball. Also all was not well in the Indian dressing room - Anil Kumble was unceremoniously dumped as manager after the event - so there was definitely lot of friction between Kohli & Kumble

Of course Pakistan made the most of its good fortune but the thing is when luck plays such an important role, its difficult to replicate the same success repeatedly. As Pakistan found out in that 2018 Asia Cup

Unlike say Australia or England which won its ICC events on pure merit & hence maintained more prolonged duration of success
Bro no offence india were dropped 8+ times in WC semis mohali and even in newyork 3 catches off amir alone were dropped

Going by yout theory Newyork and mohali were both flukes

So was 2007
 
The best part of the 2017 champions trophy was the absolute mauling Pakistan gave England in the semis and India in the final. The two supposed favourites.
Good captaincy and coaching goes along way.

What people don't realise that in 2017 everyone was switched on, whereas in 2024 90% of the side doesn't even look interested. Only naseem and rauf( yes ik he's a run machine but still) seem like they actually wanna play and win
 
Bro no offence india were dropped 8+ times in WC semis mohali and even in newyork 3 catches off amir alone were dropped

Going by yout theory Newyork and mohali were both flukes

So was 2007
It hardly matters. If in New York the target was 100, Pakistan wud have still fallen short by 5 runs. If India made 90 - Pakistan wud have folded up for 85

The problem for Pakistan is not dropped catches. Its their lack of confidence when they play India. Like Michael Vaughan said - they don't believe they can beat India
 
It hardly matters. If in New York the target was 100, Pakistan wud have still fallen short by 5 runs. If India made 90 - Pakistan wud have folded up for 85

The problem for Pakistan is not dropped catches. Its their lack of confidence when they play India. Like Michael Vaughan said - they don't believe they can beat India
You're going into hypotheticals and what ifs just saying.

What vaughan says isn't a word of God, he's a human and has his own opinion.

Theirs no hard and fast rule of Pakistan always failing and failing g short irrespective of what India makes
 
You're going into hypotheticals and what ifs just saying.

What vaughan says isn't a word of God, he's a human and has his own opinion.

Theirs no hard and fast rule of Pakistan always failing and failing g short irrespective of what India makes
Pakistan's strategy was to take the game into the last over. Pretty sure they wud have done the same if the target was 100 or 90. That was their undoing.

Had Pakistan just played freely - they wud have won with 2-3 overs to spare.
 
It hardly matters. If in New York the target was 100, Pakistan wud have still fallen short by 5 runs. If India made 90 - Pakistan wud have folded up for 85

The problem for Pakistan is not dropped catches. Its their lack of confidence when they play India. Like Michael Vaughan said - they don't believe they can beat India
That is based on probability not facts
 
We punched a bit above our weight and won ct 17 which was good. We were probably still behind the likes of India Australia England to whom we could lose 5 match white ball series 3-2 on average.

However, things didn't degrade right after, yes wed did have some losses and inconsistencies (something we have almost always had), even till world cup 2019 we were doing okay. We started posting 300+ regularly even if we didn't always win (series prior to world cup).

In world cup barring one shocker game, we did fine. We beat both finalists in league stage and also beat south Africa. We just missed semis due to one shocker and also SL rain game impact.

In my opinion there was no need for major surgery after 2019. Under Mickey we were finally developing, and fitness/fielding was much better with Steve Rixon, etc. He could have made few more changes and accommodated some more fresh blood in time.

Instead, we got rid of him, replaced Sarfraz (who was a much smarter captain for all his failings) and brought Babar as captain (much worse).

That's where the downfall started. From post 2019 world cup to all the shaningans till now. Multiple captaincy changes,
multiple coach changes,
one day amir fine one day out. Imad in then out then in.
Nawaz match winner. Shadab constantly played. Fakhar hitting 200 in odi as opener but somehow cannot open in t20.
Haris Rauf lost many games but no replacement.
Many useless bilateral series with associate or low ranked teams or C grade teams of top sides to boost stats and not giving fresh blood chance.
M Haris and even Shan did fine in 2022 t20 world cup but completely missing due to PSL and/or favoritism.
Team infighting instigated by dumb pcb decisions.
 
We punched a bit above our weight and won ct 17 which was good. We were probably still behind the likes of India Australia England to whom we could lose 5 match white ball series 3-2 on average.

However, things didn't degrade right after, yes wed did have some losses and inconsistencies (something we have almost always had), even till world cup 2019 we were doing okay. We started posting 300+ regularly even if we didn't always win (series prior to world cup).

In world cup barring one shocker game, we did fine. We beat both finalists in league stage and also beat south Africa. We just missed semis due to one shocker and also SL rain game impact.

In my opinion there was no need for major surgery after 2019. Under Mickey we were finally developing, and fitness/fielding was much better with Steve Rixon, etc. He could have made few more changes and accommodated some more fresh blood in time.

Instead, we got rid of him, replaced Sarfraz (who was a much smarter captain for all his failings) and brought Babar as captain (much worse).

That's where the downfall started. From post 2019 world cup to all the shaningans till now. Multiple captaincy changes,
multiple coach changes,
one day amir fine one day out. Imad in then out then in.
Nawaz match winner. Shadab constantly played. Fakhar hitting 200 in odi as opener but somehow cannot open in t20.
Haris Rauf lost many games but no replacement.
Many useless bilateral series with associate or low ranked teams or C grade teams of top sides to boost stats and not giving fresh blood chance.
M Haris and even Shan did fine in 2022 t20 world cup but completely missing due to PSL and/or favoritism.
Team infighting instigated by dumb pcb decisions.
Pakistan lost 10 games out 11 consecutive games with 1 No Result before the 2019 World Cup.
The team actually tends to overperform in ICC tournaments.
There in lies the problem, fans and admin with short memories and repeating mistakes.
1718744387762.png
 
Sarfraz is what went wrong.

He thought he was walking on water after the CT17 win, his attitude towards the players was poorer than his fitness , and that stump mic (racism) was probably the final straw.
 
Winning a trophy is never a fluke. By your logic, India's 1983 WC win was a fluke because Windies were the favorites.
People have called that win a fluke hopefully you correct them as well.

But just so you know India beat WI twice in that tournament, once even in group stage.(2-1)
 
Sarfraz is what went wrong.

He thought he was walking on water after the CT17 win, his attitude towards the players was poorer than his fitness , and that stump mic (racism) was probably the final straw.
Unfortunately true people are forgetting that success went to his head, but to play devil’s advocate atleast he had success unlike the current lot.

In social media Babar-Riz’s win against India and the final in 2022 is promoted so much more than CT 2017(which imo was bigger).

Irrespective of recent bias Sarfaraz did deserve the drop as well.
 
People have called that win a fluke hopefully you correct them as well.

But just so you know India beat WI twice in that tournament, once even in group stage.(2-1)
Acually India beat West Indies 3 out of 4 times . Once in West Indies before world cup. Twice in world cup. 3-1 India. West Indies became disconsolate after that loss. They came to India with vengence. The kind of Indian tracks suited West Indies more as they could take the pitch out of the equation. india just had Kapil Dev to offer. others were trundlers.
 
Acually India beat West Indies 3 out of 4 times . Once in West Indies before world cup. Twice in world cup. 3-1 India. West Indies became disconsolate after that loss. They came to India with vengence. The kind of Indian tracks suited West Indies more as they could take the pitch out of the equation. india just had Kapil Dev to offer. others were trundlers.
Also India again won in 1985.. that was equivalent of CT then
India was easily the top ODI team 1983-1985 way consistent
 
Winning a trophy is never a fluke. By your logic, India's 1983 WC win was a fluke because Windies were the favorites.
It is literally counted as one of the greatest upsets in sporting History. Everything just clicked for India when it needed most and Kapil's miracle. BUT.....

The point is India followed up with Benson and Hedges win in 85 and a SF appearance in 87. India actually improved in ODIs and sustained progress from what it was before 83.
 
It is literally counted as one of the greatest upsets in sporting History. Everything just clicked for India when it needed most and Kapil's miracle. BUT.....

The point is India followed up with Benson and Hedges win in 85 and a SF appearance in 87. India actually improved in ODIs and sustained progress from what it was before 83.
I had lesson on it in 9th grade inn Chennai from some English journalist how he left in first half and couldn’t believe what happened in second half.
 
It is literally counted as one of the greatest upsets in sporting History. Everything just clicked for India when it needed most and Kapil's miracle. BUT.....

The point is India followed up with Benson and Hedges win in 85 and a SF appearance in 87. India actually improved in ODIs and sustained progress from what it was before 83.
The conditions suited India's 120 kph trundlers perfectly. More than West Indies' fearsome pace brigade

Madan Lal & Roger Binny were more unplayable on those green seaming pitches under overcast conditions than Holding & Malcolm Marshall. Just look at the famous Gordon Greenidge dismissal to get an idea how much swing & seam movement they were getting

So on paper a huge upset but given the conditions & team line ups - not so much
 
The conditions suited India's 120 kph trundlers perfectly. More than West Indies' fearsome pace brigade

Madan Lal & Roger Binny were more unplayable on those green seaming pitches under overcast conditions than Holding & Malcolm Marshall. Just look at the famous Gordon Greenidge dismissal to get an idea how much swing & seam movement they were getting

So on paper a huge upset but given the conditions & team line ups - not so much
Having seen so many upsets over the years we make sense of what happened that day. In certain conditions you can beat even the mighy team. There was one rubbish spinner named Bob Holland took 10 wickets against West Indies and spun Australia to victory at the SCG. It is similar to how India imploded against sub standard spinners from Australia after making it overly spin friendly. I remember Amir sohail venting anger after Ireland beating Pakistan in 2007 in the commentary box. Bishop became totally silent. AMir was going "Do you think West Indies would have got a spicy pitch against ireland like Pakistan got" lol
 
Even the 2003 game, Razzaq dropped Tendulkar's dolly otherwise India would have been 55-3.
Too many ifs & buts

If Steve Bucknor had given Javed Miandad lbw when he was plumb in front in that 1992 WC final , Imran Khan wud have never become ur Prime Minister !
 
Seems like some Indian fans are still hurt over the CT17 final.

If there ever was a moment brining down a team and nation from cloud 9 (India), CT17 final was it.

Pity Sarfraz could not carry forward the momentum in the subsequent years!
 
Too many ifs & buts

If Steve Bucknor had given Javed Miandad lbw when he was plumb in front in that 1992 WC final , Imran Khan wud have never become ur Prime Minister !
Hey, you were the one who started with all these 'ifs' and 'buts.' You said CT17 was a fluke and brought up scenarios like 'if Kohli chose to bat first' and 'the no-ball incident.' And even mentioned perera dropping a dolly.

Looks like you don't enjoy getting a taste of your own medicine."
 
Lets not forget Misbah and Imran the distant cousins are behind the current crises.

Babar was made captain due to his one classy, slow innings aganist NZ in 2019 WC. Imran Khan wanted to remove Sarfraz because he refused to heed his advice to bowl or bat first against India.

Misbah successfully implemented that removal plan with the orchestrated 3-0 loss against SL at home. Sarfraz was still effective in T20s at that time, and that cannot be denied. It's evident that we lost the T20 World Cup at home (UAE) in 2021 due to that decision.
 
Lets not forget Misbah and Imran the distant cousins are behind the current crises.

Babar was made captain due to his one classy, slow innings aganist NZ in 2019 WC. Imran Khan wanted to remove Sarfraz because he refused to heed his advice to bowl or bat first against India.

Misbah successfully implemented that removal plan with the orchestrated 3-0 loss against SL at home. Sarfraz was still effective in T20s at that time, and that cannot be denied. It's evident that we lost the T20 World Cup at home (UAE) in 2021 due to that decision.
Since Khan left we have had 2 chairmen about 3 coaches and had the captain changed and then brought back under the current chairman but yes let's pretend this is on him.
 
Aaaaaaand, as usual most Pak fans getting defensive about the one CT win rather than acknowledging that there are systemic issues which have led to consistently poor performances outside of CT17 and T20WC '22 and which must be fixed if future silverware is to be won.
 
Lets not forget Misbah and Imran the distant cousins are behind the current crises.

Babar was made captain due to his one classy, slow innings aganist NZ in 2019 WC. Imran Khan wanted to remove Sarfraz because he refused to heed his advice to bowl or bat first against India.

Misbah successfully implemented that removal plan with the orchestrated 3-0 loss against SL at home. Sarfraz was still effective in T20s at that time, and that cannot be denied. It's evident that we lost the T20 World Cup at home (UAE) in 2021 due to that decision.

Orchestrated 3-0 loss?

And no.... He isn't the reason we lost the T20WC in the UAE. That team performed clinically in the group stages and lost due to choking under pressure in a knockout. Sure, Sarfraz has performed well in clutch moments but I doubt he'd have been bowling the overs where Shaheen got hit for 3 sixes vs. Mathew Wade or fielding at deep square when Hasan dropped that catch. So, no, I don't think his inclusion or exclusion would have had a significant effect on the final outcome.
 
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Since Khan left we have had 2 chairmen about 3 coaches and had the captain changed and then brought back under the current chairman but yes let's pretend this is on him.
The Imran fan boys will continue to remain in the dream world. Imran's cricket related policies and interferences messed up a very good T20 team. PCB has now become a joke and he gets the fair share of blame for that.
 
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Champions Trophy tends to throw up unexpected winners.

NZ were not expected to come anywhere near winning in 2000, West Indies winning in 2004 was a huge surprise as well.

Pakistan's ODI cricket was unimpressive both before and after that tournament.
 
Champions Trophy tends to throw up unexpected winners.

NZ were not expected to come anywhere near winning in 2000, West Indies winning in 2004 was a huge surprise as well.

Pakistan's ODI cricket was unimpressive both before and after that tournament.
SA winning the inaugural knock out format. They are never meant to win any trophy :p
 
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