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Has Pakistan's 2 nation theory been vindicated with the erosion of secularism in India & Bangladesh?

Cpt. Rishwat said:
He lives in his own bubble...in Australia. That should tell you quite a lot about the reality of booming India.
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Weird people. Praise India to moon but would do anything and everything possible to run outta India. Pakistani people are different gravy. Two nations indeed.
 
Slim said:
India did not even exist until the British came. Its a made up country. What are you even on about?
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When I said India, I meant the land that was originally under the native Hindus the original custodians, but weak argument as the point doesn't change.
Slim said:
Religions dont have birth right to a land. All abrahamic religions come from Middle East yet Europeans claim ownership over Christianity.
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Well as far as know Islam originated under the Arab influence, feel free to prove me wrong, if I am then I will stand corrected.
Slim said:
I understand your resentment since Hinduism is mainly a mono ethnic religion but your view is quite myopic and out of touch.
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This is where you are wrong, I do not hate any religions, my wife is a catholic, we raise our kids on Hindu/Christian values. However I say things like I see it, I always said Islamic world for the most part has been underwhelming to put it mildly. If the Arabs had no oil, they wouldnt amount to much either..
Slim said:
Muslims have co-existed since Prophet’s time with other religions. Ottoman empire, Ummayyad etc. there are multiple examples.
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Co-existing is one thing but not giving them equal rights and discriminating against the non believer is an other kettle of fish. Non Muslims had to pay Jizya and other restrictions.
Slim said:
You guys just cannot tolerate your Muslim population because it is a constant reminder of your religion’s failure -
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Yes agreed Hinduism has been a major failure, I notice this especially when I look at India's prosperous neighbor's like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh etc. all 3 countries have 2 things is common, Islam & total failure as nations by the converts.



Bold..
 
Slim said:
Glad to see you avoiding answering it since you have been called out. Took couple of posts to expose you.
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Here's one more for you. Wo/men together in celebration.

Pure hindu heritage and culture of our sindhis.

No black garbs/segregation found here.

1739353922023.png​
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
I don't usually like to talk about religions in detail, but this sort of stuff can only really be judged if we compare to the religion people converted from in the subcontinent, which was Hinduism mostly. Caste division and burning widows on the death of their husbands was common at that time. You talk about the teachings of Islam, are you as prepared to discuss the teachings of Hinduism which might give some background as to the growth of Islam and Christianity in the subcontinent?
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It would best to start a new thread if you wanted to discuss this Cap.

However yes I do agree with some points which are bad in Hinduism.

- Caste system,
- The wife burning thing was something none of my family or ancestors or anyone from where my part of town has ever practiced, however it may have been practiced in some other places across Bharat back in those times. However nowhere in Hindu teachings does it say the wife has to jump into a fire if a husband died..


I have no issues with Christianity or Judaism and neither has majority of the Hindu population. There's always only been one religion that has had trouble getting along with most other religions and we all know which one that is...
 
Romali_rotti said:
When I said India, I meant the land that was originally under the native Hindus the original custodians, but weak argument as the point doesn't change.


Well as far as know Islam originated under the Arab influence, feel free to prove me wrong, if I am then I will stand corrected.

This is where you are wrong, I do not hate any religions, my wife is a catholic, we raise our kids on Hindu/Christian values. However I say things like I see it, I always said Islamic world for the most part has been underwhelming to put it mildly. If the Arabs had no oil, they wouldnt amount to much either..


Co-existing is one thing but not giving them equal rights and discriminating against the non believer is an other kettle of fish. Non Muslims had to pay Jizya and other restrictions.


Yes agreed Hinduism has been a major failure, I notice this especially when I look at India's prosperous neighbor's like Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh etc. all 3 countries have 2 things is common, Islam & total failure as nations by the converts.



Bold..
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1) Native Hindus? That means nothing. There is no nativity when it comes to religion unless you believe your religion which has ZERO historical evidence showed up when the earth was formed then in that case whole world should be "native" hindu?

2) How do you even stand corrected if Islam originated in Arabia? Religions dont have birth right. Before Islam, people were idolaters in Arabia. There is no nativity.

How come such a basic thing is not able to get past your head or you just dont want to?

3) You raise your kids on hindu/christian values? Say what? You do realize Christians call your religion a "demonic" religion. There is literally ZERO common grounds between the two religion. Please explain me how you teach your kids, that makes me super curious.

You say Islamic world while marrying a catholic as if Islam and Christians are poles apart. You forget you are married to an Abrahamic, making you another traitor to your "native hinduism". Your wife has more in common with me religiously than she would ever have with you.

Your disdain for Islam is deep rooted in your upbringing as a Hindu Indian, its your generational trauma of getting dominated and obliterated by Muslims. And you would never be able to help it! Thats okay, most indians suffer from this, thats why they are the biggest flagbearers of anti Muslim sentiment across the world.

If Arabs had no oil, who would give jobs to you guys to be their drivers, toilet cleaners, uber eats drivers in the gulf states?
You make childish arguments, as if natural resources were a birthright to other religions but somehow Muslim got lucky. Do you realize how much oil USA or Canada have for instance? Christanity was not even "native" to those areas. Yet i dont hear you moaning or having a tearful session about it. This just brings me back to your generational trauma, you will never be able to let go of your deep seated hatred for Muslims. They will always be in your head rent free.

4) Muslims paid Zakat, which was a tax. Non-muslims paid Jizya, which was a tax. Whats the issue here? See you arguments remind me of boomer uncles, surface level arguments with ZERO depth.

You are mostly clueless and just make basic arguments filled with gibberish like this. Not very well thought.

5) I have already pointed on the greatness of India supa powa 2020 in another post, you can refer to that but i know it wouldnt matter to you. You will never change. You dont want to.
 
Slim said:
"What is Hindu about this? Where in Hindu religion people are asked to wear such dresses?"
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Much in common with gujrati attire below.

punjabi culture is decimated by black/white islam.

sindhis resisted. Consequently maintained their hindu heritage and culture.

1739355881349.png​
 
Romali_rotti said:
I have no issues with Christianity or Judaism and neither has majority of the Hindu population. There's always only been one religion that has had trouble getting along with most other religions and we all know which one that is...
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Tell that to your compatriots who migrate in hundreds of thousands to work in Muslim countries. These sort of false narratives would suggest the problems don't lie on the side you think they do...
 
Farhan The Man said:
We are talking about cultural similarities here.

sindhis in the interior parts don't follow islam anyways.

It's not compatible to their traditions.
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You are the one who is ascribing Hinduism to a regional dress sense. So when you follow that by saying Sindhis don't follow Islam, then presumably they follow Hinduism according to your logic.
 
Slim said:
2) How do you even stand corrected if Islam originated in Arabia? Religions dont have birth right. Before Islam, people were idolaters in Arabia. There is no nativity.

How come such a basic thing is not able to get past your head or you just dont want to?

3) You raise your kids on hindu/christian values? Say what? You do realize Christians call your religion a "demonic" religion. There is literally ZERO common grounds between the two religion. Please explain me how you teach your kids, that makes me super curious.
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Hindu teachings of Karma, spirituality and Christian teachings of forgiveness, love thy neighbor etc are some of the values we teach our kids, that's putting it mildly. Once the kids are grown up they can choose how they wish to live, we will not be interfering in their belief choices, it is upto them to choose. However, lol I am not going to give you a clinic on how I teach my kids purely because I don't care that you want to know..

Slim said:
You say Islamic world while marrying a catholic as if Islam and Christians are poles apart. You forget you are married to an Abrahamic, making you another traitor to your "native hinduism". Your wife has more in common with me religiously than she would ever have with you.
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Nowhere does it say I am a traitor to my religion because I married outside my belief system, this is not taught in any Hindu texts (again feel free to prove me wrong). Also my wife disagrees about the commonality with you, in her words: You as a muslim is a following plagiarized misrepresentation of her beliefs, so she outright rejects Islam ..:rolleyes:. But its ok, ppl of different faiths and beliefs can always respect their differences, example me and my wife, at the end of day it is just a belief, there are no scientific proof, no one has sent a post card from an Islamic Heaven or a Christian Hell or a Hindu salvation...
Slim said:
Your disdain for Islam is deep rooted in your upbringing as a Hindu Indian, its your generational trauma of getting dominated and obliterated by Muslims. And you would never be able to help it! Thats okay, most indians suffer from this, thats why they are the biggest flagbearers of anti Muslim sentiment across the world.
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You just do not get it, Ughhhhh, I am not even going to bother arguing about this, we gonna go round and round...

Yes, if it makes you sleep better at night thinking Indians suffer generational trauma then let it be, as long as in your pretty little head this brings you peace..

However, let me add a little clause, it wasn't the converts which the majority of you Pakistanis and Bangladeshi are of today that ruled over India...
Slim said:
If Arabs had no oil, who would give jobs to you guys to be their drivers, toilet cleaners, uber eats drivers in the gulf states?
You make childish arguments, as if natural resources were a birthright to other religions but somehow Muslim got lucky. Do you realize how much oil USA or Canada have for instance? Christanity was not even "native" to those areas. Yet i dont hear you moaning or having a tearful session about it. This just brings me back to your generational trauma, you will never be able to let go of your deep seated hatred for Muslims. They will always be in your head rent free.
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Yes Yes, Generation Trauma again.. What I don't get is, why are you converts in Pakistan and Bangladesh in such a diabolical mess without this 'trauma'.

Whilst India with this Trauma despite being a 3rd world country is the 5 largest economy and moving forward despite all its problems.

:apology

Slim said:
4) Muslims paid Zakat, which was a tax. Non-muslims paid Jizya, which was a tax. Whats the issue here? See you arguments remind me of boomer uncles, surface level arguments with ZERO depth.
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You are actually defending this nonsense. A Jizya tax being imposed pretty much shows you are not equal to a muslim, if that is not discriminatory, then nothing is.
Slim said:
You are mostly clueless and just make basic arguments filled with gibberish like this. Not very well thought.

5) I have already pointed on the greatness of India supa powa 2020 in another post, you can refer to that but i know it wouldnt matter to you. You will never change. You dont want to.
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I never said India was a Supa Powa, India is a 3rd world country however satisfied that we are not a hopeless cause like Pakistan, Afghanistan or Bangladesh...In 10 years time if we speak again about the condition of Pakistan I can bet my bottom dollar we would be talking about how much worse things have gotten, there is no redemption for Pakistan, it is doomed till the end of time, I have said this numerous times...
 
Nope. He said that. I only rebuked with a factual counternarrative.

sindhis is pakistan have more in common with india, genetically and culturally.
Slim said:
West of Pakistan has nothing in common with India, genetically and culturally.
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Cpt. Rishwat said:
Tell that to your compatriots who migrate in hundreds of thousands to work in Muslim countries. These sort of false narratives would suggest the problems don't lie on the side you think they do...
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Ahhh this argument again..


To be fair Cap, The Arabs in the gulf states are awakened, Arabs needs to get the jobs done like building their country's infrastructure, medical etc, whilst the converts are stuck in medieval times, back when Islam was in its glory, only problem is the world has moved on...
 
Romali_rotti said:
Yes Yes, Generation Trauma again.. What I don't get is, why are you converts in Pakistan and Bangladesh in such a diabolical mess without this 'trauma'.

Whilst India with this Trauma despite being a 3rd world country is the 5 largest economy and moving forward despite all its problems.
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Wow, that's proper obliteration..
 
I am seeing a lot of ignorance from Indian posters here which is not surprising. They get their knowledge from BJP WhatsApp University I guess.

Some of them say Islam is an Arab religion. In reality, it is a religion for all of humanity. Arabs themselves converted; they were Jews, pagans etc. before converting to Islam.

First person who converted to Islam was Prophet Muhammad's (PBUH) wife, Khadija (RA).

Religion is religion. Religion doesn't belong to any region.
 
ipog said:
Wow, that's proper obliteration..
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No it isn't. Being the 5th largest economy doesn't mean much if your people are living lives on the same level as Pakistan and Bangladesh. I'll bet you don't live in India for example, just like Romali bro you will be singing it's praises sitting on the outside.
 
Farhan The Man said:
Nope. He said that. I only rebuked with a factual counternarrative.

sindhis is pakistan have more in common with india, genetically and culturally.
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You said - and I quote:

"Pure hindu heritage and culture of our sindhis"

I don't know why you are backtracking now, it just makes you look like a liar.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
No it isn't. Being the 5th largest economy doesn't mean much if your people are living lives on the same level as Pakistan and Bangladesh. I'll bet you don't live in India for example, just like Romali bro you will be singing it's praises sitting on the outside.
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They brag about being 5th largest economy. Some questions come to mind:

- Why are Indians leaving India if India is becoming a superpower?

- Why are Indians putting their lives in danger by migrating illegally to USA? There are over 700K illegal Indians in USA (https://www.pewresearch.org/short-r...out-unauthorized-immigrants-living-in-the-us/).

- Where are there toilet shortages? 15% of country's population doesn't have toilet access --> https://www.france24.com/en/tv-show...still-struggling-to-provide-access-to-toilets.

- Why are 60% of India's population live on less than $3.10 per day? --> https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2017/10/world/i-on-india-income-gap/.

Something doesn't add up.
 
sweep_shot said:
They brag about being 5th largest economy. Some questions come to mind:

- Why are Indians leaving India if India is becoming a superpower?

- Why are Indians putting their lives in danger by migrating illegally to USA? There are over 700K illegal Indians in USA (https://www.pewresearch.org/short-r...out-unauthorized-immigrants-living-in-the-us/).

- Where are there toilet shortages? 15% of country's population doesn't have toilet access --> https://www.france24.com/en/tv-show...still-struggling-to-provide-access-to-toilets.

- Why are 60% of India's population live on less than $3.10 per day? --> https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2017/10/world/i-on-india-income-gap/.

Something doesn't add up.
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Since, you time and time again have an allergy to read the very links in detail. Just letting you know read the links again and not just the titles. There is an excel file link embedded in one of the links that will put a spanner in your concocted narrative.
 
Slim said:
Pakistanis and Indians are two different nations indeed with some amount of correlation due to few shared aspects of Punjabi culture and thats it.

Pakistanis have nothing in common with whole of South India that dwarfs Pakistan in population and size.

West of Pakistan has nothing in common with India, genetically and culturally.
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West of Pakistan also has nothing in common with Sindhis and Punjabis. Only religion is same.

No state in India has anything in common with other state other than religion and shared deities. Their celebrations, their festivals are different outside of some common ones like Diwali and Dussehra. They don’t even speak the same language. What unities them is that they are Indians and the much maligned Brahminical religion of Hinduism.

Pakistani Sindhis and Punjabis gave up the one thing that tied them to the mainland Indians. It’s the Hindu/Buddhist/Jain religions.

Afghanistan and Balochistan were not too alien for modern day India until 11th century. The Turk invasions completely changed their culture, language and Religion. Once they started converting locals, the thread that binded them to India was completely cut off.

Like many would say, history cannot be changed. But people, culture and religion can change quickly.
 
Champ_Pal said:
But people, culture and religion can change quickly.
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True. Look no further than persians -- and interior parts of sindh to a certain extent -- who are offloading islam en masse.

Arabic islam is entirely incompatible to cultural norms of persians and sindhis. These 2 cohorts prefer freewill over conformance.

On the contrary, punjabis owing to their landlocked status are docile species who'd willingly comply to authoritative diction simply to prolong their existence.
 
Farhan The Man said:
True. Look no further than persians -- and interior parts of sindh to a certain extent -- who are offloading islam en masse.

Arabic islam is entirely incompatible to cultural norms of persians and sindhis. These 2 cohorts prefer freewill over conformance.

On the contrary, punjabis owing to their landlocked status are docile species who'd willingly comply to authoritative diction simply to prolong their existence.
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Sindh offloading Islam en masse.
Persians and Sindhis being incompatible with Arabic culture (but presumably fine with English, Hindu or Greek).
Punjabis being docile because they are landlocked. Imagine if I said Sindhis are effeminate because they live near the sea.
 
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sweep_shot said:
This video is gold. LOL.

Great to see the guy didn't sugarcoat anything.
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India is highly polluted and extremely over populated. Most of these tourists visit cities which are extremely bad.
There are places in India where they can visit centuries old temples and structures and also wild life sanctuaries.

One has to mentally accept the pollution and dirt if they want to visit India. It’s not like these tourists do it know where they are traveling. They must have seen videos of other vloggers. If they wanted cleanliness and clean air, they can visit Eastern Europe or Australia.
 
sweep_shot said:
This video is gold. LOL.

Great to see the guy didn't sugarcoat anything.
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To be clear, most people are aware of the reality of developing countries, we shouldn't really need to remind them. It's only when inhabitants of said countries make condescending remarks about neighbours that they need a shot of some home truths.

Well I hope @Hitman watched that one all the way through because I think he needed reminding before getting too excited, and now he's tagged in all his Shining India friends and they will have to get that dose of reality too. :(
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
To be clear, most people are aware of the reality of developing countries, we shouldn't really need to remind them. It's only when inhabitants of said countries make condescending remarks about neighbours that they need a shot of some home truths.

Well I hope @Hitman watched that one all the way through because I think he needed reminding before getting too excited, and now he's tagged in all his Shining India friends and they will have to get that dose of reality too. :(
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Agree. Some of these Indian posters act like India is some appealing first world country. I am astonished by their attitude.

Anyway, another dude not very happy with Indian visit:

 
Pakistan is a failed nation which is surviving on IMF bailouts. It has no international standings and a global hub of terrorism. So not sure how the two nation theory is vindicated? Had it been a vibrant democracy and a thriving country which is setting an example to the world, this statement would have made sense. However the fact is they couldnt even tolerate with their East Bengal brothers and country had to divide again and yet after 70+ years of independence it is still an economic mess shows the two nation theory failed spectacularly.

However, what it had shown though is that muslims when in Majority want an Islamic republic but when in minority they play victim card and want secularism. This theory has been proven again and again.
 
People here are missing the point or are deliberately acting naive to pass (some of) the shame. We are not discussing about the hygene issues of India or what few American youtubers are saying. I mean I can provide 100s of such foreign youtubers talking smack about Pak and Joy Bangla. But the topic is about two nation theory. We must stick to that topic whether it had benefitted Pakistan or not and if its been vindicated. I mean we all know the answer but still worth discussing.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
Sindh offloading Islam en masse.
Persians and Sindhis being incompatible with Arabic culture (but presumably fine with English, Hindu or Greek).
Punjabis being docile because they are landlocked. Imagine if I said Sindhis are effeminate because they live near the sea.
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Here's a 2020 report on the persians with just 40% self-identifying as muslim. In recent times there's hardly any azaans heard in tehran or other major cities with abandoned mosques.

It's a similar sentiment if you travel to interior parts of sindh. The only thing keeping people within islamic fold are the hardline apostasy laws. Effectively remaining captive by force.

theconversation.com

Iran’s secular shift: new survey reveals huge changes in religious beliefs

A huge new online survey of Iranians reveals only 40% identify as Muslim.
theconversation.com theconversation.com
 
Pakistanis in 1947: “Hey Ya’ll ! Our 50% Muslim brothers population, We’re leaving this country, sorry for that. This will mean that while us 50% who are leaving will be 100% majority in the new country, but we sure as hell are going to reduce the Muslim population in Bharat from 25% to below 15% resulting in your political clout going for a toss forever. But don’t worry, from the other side we will keep raising our voice for ya’ll as you continue to fight your political battles till eternity. Good day Ya’ll. Ya Allah Ya Muhammad. Peace!”
 
Sectarian violence for decades has made Pakistan unsafe even for its own Muslims, with Shias, Ahmadis, and other minorities facing persecution. If Pakistan was meant to be a safe haven for Muslims, why has it failed to protect them?

Btw, who said secularism has eroded in Bharat? As bad as secularism is in its woke definition for Bharat which is the motherland of Sanatan Dharma, Bharat still remains constitutionally secular, with 200 million Muslims practicing their faith freely and excelling in politics, business, and entertainment.

Bangladesh situation is actually not just a slap on TNT but a slap on subcontinental Muslims for being utter failures at nation building. That whole project asks for an Undo.

What right does Pakistan has to even make such ridiculous claims? It’s a failed state today that is dependent on IMF bailouts and is plagued by internal violenc where Muslims are killing Muslims. As bad as things ever get in Bharat, Hindus aren’t murdering fellow hindus in cold blood like we see in Pakistan. Pakistanis have no right to talk about such things. Give your country a few good decades, bring the economy back on track, bring peace to the region and stop the internal wars then maybe in a few decades this would be something worth discussing. Before that, TNT remains the biggest blunder of muslim leadership in the subcontinent who created an inferior country and couldn’t do anything with it at the expense of what would have been the strongest secular nation in the world. TNT has only deprived millions of Muslims of the subcontinent of the riches, political power, prestige that they might have had being associated with the brand Bharat. Even the Mughals believed in the idea of Hindustan. They wanted to expand. They did try to dominate the Hindu religion but they weren’t silly enough to run away to form a smaller kingdom somewhere when they had the greatest empire ever in their hands. As stupid as Aurangzeb and his successors were, they didn’t run away.
 
Rajdeep said:
People here are missing the point or are deliberately acting naive to pass (some of) the shame. We are not discussing about the hygene issues of India or what few American youtubers are saying. I mean I can provide 100s of such foreign youtubers talking smack about Pak and Joy Bangla. But the topic is about two nation theory. We must stick to that topic whether it had benefitted Pakistan or not and if its been vindicated. I mean we all know the answer but still worth discussing.
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If Indian posters are going to make mocking comments about Pakistan or Bangladesh as if they are living in some Swiss utopia, then you have to expect some correction. They were even tagging in more Indians to join in the fun, so maybe they should take your advice on board.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
If Indian posters are going to make mocking comments about Pakistan or Bangladesh as if they are living in some Swiss utopia, then you have to expect some correction. They were even tagging in more Indians to join in the fun, so maybe they should take your advice on board.
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Exactly.

They can dish it out but whine when they get it back.

They should keep these things in mind before mocking other countries:

- Indians are leaving India in big numbers.

- There are over 700K illegal Indians in USA (https://www.pewresearch.org/short-r...out-unauthorized-immigrants-living-in-the-us/).

- 15% of India's population doesn't have toilet access --> https://www.france24.com/en/tv-show...still-struggling-to-provide-access-to-toilets.

- 60% of India's population live on less than $3.10 per day --> https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2017/10/world/i-on-india-income-gap/.
 
Farhan The Man said:
Here's a 2020 report on the persians with just 40% self-identifying as muslim. In recent times there's hardly any azaans heard in tehran or other major cities with abandoned mosques.

It's a similar sentiment if you travel to interior parts of sindh. The only thing keeping people within islamic fold are the hardline apostasy laws. Effectively remaining captive by force.

theconversation.com

Iran’s secular shift: new survey reveals huge changes in religious beliefs

A huge new online survey of Iranians reveals only 40% identify as Muslim.
theconversation.com theconversation.com
Click to expand...

I looked through that and it's basically a desire for secular rule, something which I also believe is important. Not surprised that Iranians are tired of living in a theocracy, but even then I would take that slant with a pinch of salt given you have already made such ludicrous claims re Sindh and Hindu culture.
 
Bhaijaan said:
Sectarian violence for decades has made Pakistan unsafe even for its own Muslims, with Shias, Ahmadis, and other minorities facing persecution. If Pakistan was meant to be a safe haven for Muslims, why has it failed to protect them?

Btw, who said secularism has eroded in Bharat? As bad as secularism is in its woke definition for Bharat which is the motherland of Sanatan Dharma, Bharat still remains constitutionally secular, with 200 million Muslims practicing their faith freely and excelling in politics, business, and entertainment.

Bangladesh situation is actually not just a slap on TNT but a slap on subcontinental Muslims for being utter failures at nation building. That whole project asks for an Undo.

What right does Pakistan has to even make such ridiculous claims? It’s a failed state today that is dependent on IMF bailouts and is plagued by internal violenc where Muslims are killing Muslims. As bad as things ever get in Bharat, Hindus aren’t murdering fellow hindus in cold blood like we see in Pakistan. Pakistanis have no right to talk about such things. Give your country a few good decades, bring the economy back on track, bring peace to the region and stop the internal wars then maybe in a few decades this would be something worth discussing. Before that, TNT remains the biggest blunder of muslim leadership in the subcontinent who created an inferior country and couldn’t do anything with it at the expense of what would have been the strongest secular nation in the world. TNT has only deprived millions of Muslims of the subcontinent of the riches, political power, prestige that they might have had being associated with the brand Bharat. Even the Mughals believed in the idea of Hindustan. They wanted to expand. They did try to dominate the Hindu religion but they weren’t silly enough to run away to form a smaller kingdom somewhere when they had the greatest empire ever in their hands. As stupid as Aurangzeb and his successors were, they didn’t run away.
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The relentless rise of RSS to eventual power via rule of BJP is a rejection of secularism. Many Indian posters started referring to it as sickularism let us not forget. You were probably one of them. 😄

When you take the path of bringing in religious statutes, then secularism is on the decline. We saw this already in Pakistan following Zia's ascendancy. I am not judging here either, maybe people in Pakistan are very happy with that turn. Just pointing out that you can't have it both ways.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
The relentless rise of RSS to eventual power via rule of BJP is a rejection of secularism. Many Indian posters started referring to it as sickularism let us not forget. You were probably one of them. 😄

When you take the path of bringing in religious statutes, then secularism is on the decline. We saw this already in Pakistan following Zia's ascendancy. I am not judging here either, maybe people in Pakistan are very happy with that turn. Just pointing out that you can't have it both ways.
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Yes. It seems like some of them want India to be both a Hindu theocracy and a secular state. It is not possible to be both.
 
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sweep_shot said:
Exactly.

They can dish it out but whine when they get it back.

They should keep these things in mind before mocking other countries:

- Indians are leaving India in big numbers.

- There are over 700K illegal Indians in USA (https://www.pewresearch.org/short-r...out-unauthorized-immigrants-living-in-the-us/).

- 15% of India's population doesn't have toilet access --> https://www.france24.com/en/tv-show...still-struggling-to-provide-access-to-toilets.

- 60% of India's population live on less than $3.10 per day --> https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2017/10/world/i-on-india-income-gap/.
Click to expand...

How many Indians live less than 3 dollars a day or how many Indians don't have toilet have nothing to do with this thread. The question asked in OP is whether two state nation i.e one seperate land for muslims created in 1947 aka Pakistan worked or not and whether M.Jinnah stands vindicated almost 80 years after partition. Not sure how difficult it is to just stick to this topic and give a viewpoint whether for or against it.
 
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tajikistan offloading islam in line with persians and sindhis. Maintaining native culture is paramount to survival.

President Emomali Rahmon, in power since 1992, has called the wearing of the Islamic hijab a “problem for society”, with authorities calling on women to “dress in the Tajik way”...has de-facto banned the wearing of long beards to combat “religious extremism”.​

www.dawn.com

Tajikistan to publish new dress ‘guidelines’ for women

Minister says guidelines will set out what women should wear "according to age", in various settings such as at home, at theatre or at ceremonial events.
www.dawn.com
 
Farhan The Man said:
tajikistan offloading islam in line with persians and sindhis. Maintaining native culture is paramount to survival.

President Emomali Rahmon, in power since 1992, has called the wearing of the Islamic hijab a “problem for society”, with authorities calling on women to “dress in the Tajik way”...has de-facto banned the wearing of long beards to combat “religious extremism”.​

www.dawn.com

Tajikistan to publish new dress ‘guidelines’ for women

Minister says guidelines will set out what women should wear "according to age", in various settings such as at home, at theatre or at ceremonial events.
www.dawn.com
Click to expand...
OMG the Hindutva brigade has spread its propaganda in Central Asia too. One must truly ask why the Hindutva ideology is so Islamophobic??
 
In many ways this would be a return to original Islam before the clergy started fixing their own rules and interpretations and we started seeing dress codes introduced based on hadiths which were never enforced at the time of the advent of Islam.

Although banning long beards is just as dumb, many non-Muslims want to wear really long beards these days as a fashion statement. This is just another form of dress code enforcement similar to so called Sharia dress code.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
In many ways this would be a return to original Islam before the clergy started fixing their own rules and interpretations and we started seeing dress codes introduced based on hadiths which were never enforced at the time of the advent of Islam.
Click to expand...
The enforcement is from islamic text. At advent of islam by prophet's youngest wife. No further interpretation required from clergy.

It was narrated from Safiyyah bint Shaybah that ‘Aishah (may Allah be pleased with her) used to say: “draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)” – they took their izars (a kind of garment) and tore them from the edges and covered their faces with them. Narrated by al-Bukhari, 4481.​
 
Farhan The Man said:
The enforcement is from islamic text. At advent of islam by prophet's youngest wife. No further interpretation required from clergy.

It was narrated from Safiyyah bint Shaybah that ‘Aishah (may Allah be pleased with her) used to say: “draw their veils all over Juyubihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms)” – they took their izars (a kind of garment) and tore them from the edges and covered their faces with them. Narrated by al-Bukhari, 4481.​
Click to expand...

Like I said, it came from hadiths produced over a century after the advent of Islam. That is why you were reduced to quoting hadith and not Quran for dress codes.

It is true that the Prophet's wives RA did used to veil, but that was not enforced on the general population. This is where clergy interference has gradually eroded the original Islam.

Although the Tajik govt seem to be doing the same as the clergy in forcing people to dress a certain way or measure beard lengths....what a bunch of neanderthal dimwits.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
Like I said, it came from hadiths produced over a century after the advent of Islam. That is why you were reduced to quoting hadith and not Quran for dress codes.
Click to expand...
Here you go below. Straight from quran. Remember the first word: iqra.

Calling others dimwit is certainly not your stature. It's self-preservation on their part. Protection from arabic islam.
​
“O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”​
[al-Ahzab 33:59]​
 
Farhan The Man said:
Here you go below. Straight from quran. Remember the first word: iqra.

Calling others dimwit is certainly not your stature. It's self-preservation on their part. Protection from arabic islam.
​
“O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”​
[al-Ahzab 33:59]​
Click to expand...

That is a general advice which is preferable for believing women to gain the favour of their Lord. I don't see anywhere it says it should be enforced or how that would be done.
 
Farhan The Man said:
Punishment for nonbelievers of these commandments.

Reiterating: read first. Your ignorance lets you down. Every time.

Who is more evil than one who is reminded of these revelations of his Lord, then insists upon disregarding them? We will certainly punish the guilty - Quran [32:22]​
Click to expand...

Now you are taking general verses and applying them to clothing. I am ignorant of holy text you are right in that, but I think ignorance and common sense is better than someone trying to present a narrative to fit their own purposes.

Don't bother bringing your Quran verses or hadiths to me, I don't care. Go back to Saudi Arabia if you want to study Islamic literature.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
In many ways this would be a return to original Islam before the clergy started fixing their own rules and interpretations and we started seeing dress codes introduced based on hadiths which were never enforced at the time of the advent of Islam.

Although banning long beards is just as dumb, many non-Muslims want to wear really long beards these days as a fashion statement. This is just another form of dress code enforcement similar to so called Sharia dress code.
Click to expand...
Good point. Original Islam in its purest form created good equality before it got corrupted by the ultra-conservatives for their personal gains.
 
Farhan The Man said:
Your distaste for authentic islamic texts is palpable.

Welcome to the club.
Click to expand...

The good news for you and your Indian chums here is that Pakistan and Afghanistan will soon be returning to their hindutva roots. Jai Hind!

Please send pics from Kabul of the girls in their saris when you get time.
 
Farhan The Man said:
I am afraid this fetish has "grooming" written all over it. Old habits die hard.

Please don't return to pind. We are better off.
Click to expand...

Lol, it's you who has been posting the pictures my slavering friend. Now wipe the drool off your chin and find a few more.
 
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