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How can we replace usury-based banking system?

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Evil of interest cannot be overstated. It is something that has been poisoning our society for many years. It has unfortunately become a part of modern financial system and there is no escaping it. It is almost everywhere.

So, how can we replace this system with something that is more ethical and more effective?
 
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You bring bag of barley, I will bring a bag of rice, we will exchange and buy good like cars etc.....

In other words, we cannot replace this system as things stand now
 
You bring bag of barley, I will bring a bag of rice, we will exchange and buy good like cars etc.....

In other words, we cannot replace this system as things stand now

Barter system. It used to be like this. It was such a clean and ethical system.

Modern banking system is poisonous and evil.
 
Evil of interest cannot be overstated. It is something that has been poisoning our society for many years. It has unfortunately become a part of modern financial system and there is no escaping it. It is almost everywhere.

So, how can we replace this system with something that is more ethical and more effective?

Interest is ethical. If you lend 100 taka to someone, is it fair that he returns 100 taka after 5 years?
 
Interest is ethical. If you lend 100 taka to someone, is it fair that he returns 100 taka after 5 years?

depends on whether someone asking for money in his time of need or for luxury item that he can do without or for an investment (my view)
 
Understanding the main problem:

Interest creates an illusion that money increases over time.

Underlying fact:

A total fallacy. Money doesn't automatically increase over time.

The reason why this won't be abolished:

The root of commercialism stems from it. Money increasing over time and things becoming more and more abundant.

How can it be eliminated:

Abolish inflation. People think it's automatic and what not but inflation is totally controlled by the government. People work a year, at the end of the year they expect increase in the salaries. Now they have more buying power, and the prices need to go up too otherwise there will be shortage of stuff.

The excel sheet economy, the future trades, the stock exchanges, and other such items really create a lot of money for some people. If you read about the stock exchange and I'm not talking from a conspiracy theory point of view but authentic books about the life of Warren Buffet you will see the evolution of stock exchange and how it developed based on the principles of gambling.

The worst is, third world and poor countries are effected immensely by inflation. Countries that have stable economies don't have such yearly price increase and the affluent people just move from a cheaper commodity to a more expensive one as their lifestyle improves.

Commercialism is a cancer. It's gotten the whole world in its grip. Interest is a major weapon for this and there's no way it's gonna be easily replaced. However, replacing it is really simple. All it needs is one leader who says, no more and that's that. (Like all things devious, it looks very strong 'ankaboot' but when you really want to get rid of it, all it takes is one strike)
 
It is fair to me. Yes.

I lend out of good faith. I don't seek profit from it.

He is taking account for Inflation, so For him it is ethical, Obviously We need to Get rid of Inflation but that is impossible with the current Financial system.
 
He is taking account for Inflation, so For him it is ethical, Obviously We need to Get rid of Inflation but that is impossible with the current Financial system.

You are right. Inflation is always one excuse people use to justify usury.

I think one of the ways to deal with inflation is to go back to gold standard. Fiat currency is not backed by anything and hence it causes overspending and inflation.
 
Understanding the main problem:

Interest creates an illusion that money increases over time.

Underlying fact:

A total fallacy. Money doesn't automatically increase over time.

The reason why this won't be abolished:

The root of commercialism stems from it. Money increasing over time and things becoming more and more abundant.

How can it be eliminated:

Abolish inflation. People think it's automatic and what not but inflation is totally controlled by the government. People work a year, at the end of the year they expect increase in the salaries. Now they have more buying power, and the prices need to go up too otherwise there will be shortage of stuff.

The excel sheet economy, the future trades, the stock exchanges, and other such items really create a lot of money for some people. If you read about the stock exchange and I'm not talking from a conspiracy theory point of view but authentic books about the life of Warren Buffet you will see the evolution of stock exchange and how it developed based on the principles of gambling.

The worst is, third world and poor countries are effected immensely by inflation. Countries that have stable economies don't have such yearly price increase and the affluent people just move from a cheaper commodity to a more expensive one as their lifestyle improves.

Commercialism is a cancer. It's gotten the whole world in its grip. Interest is a major weapon for this and there's no way it's gonna be easily replaced. However, replacing it is really simple. All it needs is one leader who says, no more and that's that. (Like all things devious, it looks very strong 'ankaboot' but when you really want to get rid of it, all it takes is one strike)

Great post. POTW candidate.

Interest is pretty much robbing Peter to pay Paul.
 
Great post. POTW candidate.

Interest is pretty much robbing Peter to pay Paul.

"The Snowball" is a beautiful book to go through. The origin of stock exchange away from the hoopla of conspiracy theorists. There are others as well, "Confessions of a financial hitman" is one of the many that comes to mind but then that is on a slightly different tangent and one can argue that it was meant to sell copies and needed such a catchy name and spicy theories.

But just look at what this commercialism has given us. Our animals are dying, forests are being eradicated faster than ever, clean water is an issue, oceans look like a cesspool, and global climate is a total mess. Even now we are waiting for the North pole to melt so Russia and USA can mine the resources hidden below the sheets of ice.

This is the 'beautiful' world that the champions of humanity have built. I mean is there even anything left to say on this anymore. Long live the excel sheet economy!!
 
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Evil of interest cannot be overstated. It is something that has been poisoning our society for many years. It has unfortunately become a part of modern financial system and there is no escaping it. It is almost everywhere.

So, how can we replace this system with something that is more ethical and more effective?

I am no economic specialist, neither is anyone here. I would recommend reading about the wealth of the early Muslim dynasties and the systems that were in place then, which did not depend on usury yet created immense wealth.
 
what happens in an interest based economy.

I loan you cash to start a buisness. I expect payment based on the principle amount lended, multiplied by interest rate (in percent) and the time duration. i.e money = P*R*T/100

The above is haram

What happens in a Halal Profit/Loss system.
I loan an amount of cash as an investment in your buisness. I am to receive payment as a percentage of profit made from the buisness over a period of time.

the difference between the two is that Interest is a percentage of the principle, which is haram.
Profit/loss is a percent of the profits/losses, which is halal.
I give you cash this cash is an investment in your buisness
 
what happens in an interest based economy.

I loan you cash to start a buisness. I expect payment based on the principle amount lended, multiplied by interest rate (in percent) and the time duration. i.e money = P*R*T/100

The above is haram

What happens in a Halal Profit/Loss system.
I loan an amount of cash as an investment in your buisness. I am to receive payment as a percentage of profit made from the buisness over a period of time.

the difference between the two is that Interest is a percentage of the principle, which is haram.
Profit/loss is a percent of the profits/losses, which is halal.
I give you cash this cash is an investment in your buisness

You are right.

Biggest problem with interest is the fact there is no limit. $100 can turn into $1,000,000 and will still continue to grow. It is something that makes rich richer and poor poorer.
 
"The Snowball" is a beautiful book to go through. The origin of stock exchange away from the hoopla of conspiracy theorists. There are others as well, "Confessions of a financial hitman" is one of the many that comes to mind but then that is on a slightly different tangent and one can argue that it was meant to sell copies and needed such a catchy name and spicy theories.

But just look at what this commercialism has given us. Our animals are dying, forests are being eradicated faster than ever, clean water is an issue, oceans look like a cesspool, and global climate is a total mess. Even now we are waiting for the North pole to melt so Russia and USA can mine the resources hidden below the sheets of ice.

This is the 'beautiful' world that the champions of humanity have built. I mean is there even anything left to say on this anymore. Long live the excel sheet economy!!

Consumerism is indeed a massive threat not just to humans but to the entire planet. A lot of our animal species are going extinct; trees are disappearing; everything is going down the drain. I think media plays a great role in promoting consumerism; media makes people purchase things that they don't really need.

Consumerism causes inflation and that inflation causes usury-based system to thrive. I think one of the ways we can reverse/eliminate this is by replacing consumerism with minimalism.
 
Simple. Abolish central banking allowing governments to issue currency with zero interest. This is a proven method to promote an economy.
 
Consumerism causes inflation and that inflation causes usury-based system to thrive. I think one of the ways we can reverse/eliminate this is by replacing consumerism with minimalism.

Excess supply of currency causes inflation.
 
A lot of people, sadly "good" Muslims, are confused about the difference between interest and usury. I'm not religious so have no interest (excuse the pun) in whether interest is halal or haram. However, instead of trying to invent a new system of money, perhaps we should use the one that works and instead devote our intellectual efforts to improving living standards...

With that in mind; a brief summary of why interest is an indispensable concept in the modern world.

Everyone at some point in their life will borrow money. People will borrow to buy houses, buy cars or to see them through tough times. Businesses borrow to invest or meet a shortfall in cashflow. Governments borrow to fund expenditure. Without borrowing a lot of modern economic activity would grind to a halt. Your life, along with the life of most people on earth, would be a lot worse off.

No prizes for guessing who the biggest lenders in the world are: banks and the bond market. A few posters have said they wouldn't mind lending someone £100 and expect them to pay back £100 a few years later. Well that is very nice of you!

But a bank has to worry about a number of things.

1. Not everyone will pay back the amount they borrow. In the UK the through the cycle default rate is approximately 1%.
2. A bank also has operating costs; staff salaries, branches, payment systems, online platforms, IT processing, HQ etc.
3. Banks are also required to hold a certain amount of capital which means if the bank experiences losses; the losses are absorbed by this capital base and depositors are protected. The capital is provided by shareholders. They don't agree to take on loss risk out of the goodness of their hearts, and typically demand a return for their investment.

You put these three things together and you can see straight away that no large scale private lending would ever take place if banks were forced to lend £100 and recoup £100. Now, if I was being disingenuous, I could get around the problem by saying I will lend £100; you repay me £100 and I will charge you a fee of £5 to cover my costs. No interest! Or, to make things easier, I could say I'll lend you £100 at 5% interest.

Usury is different. It is taking advantage of someone in a desperate situation and charging them eye wateringly high rates. Payday loans have an effective annual interest rate of 100s of percents. Guarantor loans charge 50% interest. This is a difficult area because the people who use payday or guarantor loans typically present a much higher default risk. The Financial Conduct Authority (the UK regulator) has a tough choice. Do they ban these high interest providers because it is morally reprehensible to charge someone 500% interest? Sound like a good idea to me. But if the borrower is desperate enough, do they go to a loanshark who will come around with baseball bats later? It is a thorny issue and one without an easy answer.

However, the key point to hammer home is, charging interest interest (i.e. the legitimise cost of covering defaults, operating costs, and providing a return on capital) is not usury. Nothing morally wrong about it. Tell your friends!
 
Current economic order will self destruct, as the recession of 2008 shows. Its only a matter of time and when it does it will be replaced by Sharia.
 
Current economic order will self destruct, as the recession of 2008 shows. Its only a matter of time and when it does it will be replaced by Sharia.

Why this perfect economic practice is not followed even in Islamic countries then?
 
Why this perfect economic practice is not followed even in Islamic countries then?

Because current economic system is based on interest based capitalism. Muslim countries are part of the global economy so they have to make allowance for usury in central banking.
However capitalism is based on greed and that will be its downfall. Islamic economics with its fundamental ethics and virtues is a viable alternative to capitalism.
Islamic economics enabled vast Muslim empires of the wast to generate an immense amount of wealth and through equitable distribution poverty was eliminated, not like crony capitalism where the rich gets richer and the poor poorer.
 
Why this perfect economic practice is not followed even in Islamic countries then?

It is very simple. Modern Muslim leaders don't have spines.

Any interest-free banking system (doesn't necessarily have to be Sharia banking) is better than the current poisonous system. It is all about implementation.
 
A lot of people, sadly "good" Muslims, are confused about the difference between interest and usury. I'm not religious so have no interest (excuse the pun) in whether interest is halal or haram. However, instead of trying to invent a new system of money, perhaps we should use the one that works and instead devote our intellectual efforts to improving living standards...

With that in mind; a brief summary of why interest is an indispensable concept in the modern world.

Everyone at some point in their life will borrow money. People will borrow to buy houses, buy cars or to see them through tough times. Businesses borrow to invest or meet a shortfall in cashflow. Governments borrow to fund expenditure. Without borrowing a lot of modern economic activity would grind to a halt. Your life, along with the life of most people on earth, would be a lot worse off.

No prizes for guessing who the biggest lenders in the world are: banks and the bond market. A few posters have said they wouldn't mind lending someone £100 and expect them to pay back £100 a few years later. Well that is very nice of you!

But a bank has to worry about a number of things.

1. Not everyone will pay back the amount they borrow. In the UK the through the cycle default rate is approximately 1%.
2. A bank also has operating costs; staff salaries, branches, payment systems, online platforms, IT processing, HQ etc.
3. Banks are also required to hold a certain amount of capital which means if the bank experiences losses; the losses are absorbed by this capital base and depositors are protected. The capital is provided by shareholders. They don't agree to take on loss risk out of the goodness of their hearts, and typically demand a return for their investment.

You put these three things together and you can see straight away that no large scale private lending would ever take place if banks were forced to lend £100 and recoup £100. Now, if I was being disingenuous, I could get around the problem by saying I will lend £100; you repay me £100 and I will charge you a fee of £5 to cover my costs. No interest! Or, to make things easier, I could say I'll lend you £100 at 5% interest.

Usury is different. It is taking advantage of someone in a desperate situation and charging them eye wateringly high rates. Payday loans have an effective annual interest rate of 100s of percents. Guarantor loans charge 50% interest. This is a difficult area because the people who use payday or guarantor loans typically present a much higher default risk. The Financial Conduct Authority (the UK regulator) has a tough choice. Do they ban these high interest providers because it is morally reprehensible to charge someone 500% interest? Sound like a good idea to me. But if the borrower is desperate enough, do they go to a loanshark who will come around with baseball bats later? It is a thorny issue and one without an easy answer.

However, the key point to hammer home is, charging interest interest (i.e. the legitimise cost of covering defaults, operating costs, and providing a return on capital) is not usury. Nothing morally wrong about it. Tell your friends!

What do you think about Islamic banking? Pure Islamic banking doesn't deal with interest.
 
One word.

Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is not backed by anything though. Also, value of Bitcoin fluctuates too much. It is not reliable.

Security is also a factor. Tech-savvy hackers can easily hack innocent folks and steal money. Bitcoin transactions are irreversible.
 
Because current economic system is based on interest based capitalism. Muslim countries are part of the global economy so they have to make allowance for usury in central banking.
However capitalism is based on greed and that will be its downfall. Islamic economics with its fundamental ethics and virtues is a viable alternative to capitalism.
Islamic economics enabled vast Muslim empires of the wast to generate an immense amount of wealth and through equitable distribution poverty was eliminated, not like crony capitalism where the rich gets richer and the poor poorer.


But greed does play its part in ethics and morality. Going by human psychology, a platform based upon pure ethics and moral thoughts can't survive because everyone has to be perfect. And if they are perfect, they will attain the level of God.

But people aren't perfect. How do you realize what's the intention of a person? What if you judge wrong?
 
It is very simple. Modern Muslim leaders don't have spines.

Any interest-free banking system (doesn't necessarily have to be Sharia banking) is better than the current poisonous system. It is all about implementation.

Please go ahead and tell us how you would implement this in this day and age. Assume that you are the Khalif and have all the powers to implement the changes.
 
One recent example is of course Thomas Cook going bust. How can a company making $billions a year suddenly collapse?

One major issue was that selling a mammoth 3 million holidays per year covered only the interest payments to their creditors.

The Thomas Cook story is symptomatic of an interest based economy.
 
One recent example is of course Thomas Cook going bust. How can a company making $billions a year suddenly collapse?

One major issue was that selling a mammoth 3 million holidays per year covered only the interest payments to their creditors.

The Thomas Cook story is symptomatic of an interest based economy.

That is why crony capitalism will collapse.
 
But greed does play its part in ethics and morality. Going by human psychology, a platform based upon pure ethics and moral thoughts can't survive because everyone has to be perfect. And if they are perfect, they will attain the level of God.

But people aren't perfect. How do you realize what's the intention of a person? What if you judge wrong?

In Islam you have to give charity(its mandatory for everyone who has the means). Sure greedy people will always be there but islamic system ensures that top 1 % of a nation doesn't own 80 % of its wealth like its the case these days in many countries. Wealth should be distributed more equally under islamic rules.
 
Please go ahead and tell us how you would implement this in this day and age. Assume that you are the Khalif and have all the powers to implement the changes.

I think this video should answer your question:


Here's another example: https://bofjoy.net/.

Bank of Joy is not an official bank yet but it has a concept similar to Islamic banking.
 
I think this video should answer your question:


Here's another example: https://bofjoy.net/.

Bank of Joy is not an official bank yet but it has a concept similar to Islamic banking.

So if I have to own a house I will have to put up the entire cost of the property upfront ? If I have to pay for emergencies this bank will lend me money interest free and will wait for years/decades for me to pay it back ?
 
To learn about Islamic mortgage, see this video:


To learn about Islamic personal loan, check this link: https://www.comparehero.my/personal-loan/articles/how-does-an-islamic-personal-loan-work/.

That sounds like interest charged without calling it interest.

from the personal loan link:
Bai’ Al-‘Inah is a concept which involves the selling and buying back transaction by a seller (bank) on a deferred payment basis. A seller will sell to a buyer (client) on a cash basis. The seller will later buy back on a deferred payment basis where the price is higher than the cash price. It can also be applied when a seller sells to a buyer on a differed basis. A seller will later buy back on a cash basis at a price which is lower than the deferred price, thus the transaction amounts to a loan. In personal financing, the asset involved in the Bai’Al-‘Inah concept of buying and selling would be the cash.
 
That sounds like interest charged without calling it interest.

from the personal loan link:

There is a difference between compound interest and fixed fee.

Compound interest has no limit. $1 can turn into $10,000 and it can still continue to grow.

No such issue with fee as fee is fixed.
 
There is a difference between compound interest and fixed fee.

Compound interest has no limit. $1 can turn into $10,000 and it can still continue to grow.

No such issue with fee as fee is fixed.

Not if the fixed "fee" amounts to $10,000. So the devil is in the details. Prove to me that the costs of homeownership or personal loans in the USA are significantly less if I use this method using some verifiable real examples.
 
Not if the fixed "fee" amounts to $10,000. So the devil is in the details. Prove to me that the costs of homeownership or personal loans in the USA are significantly less if I use this method using some verifiable real examples.

Fee is generally reasonable. There are rules and regulations. Islamic banks are not supposed to rip people off like conventional banks do; pure Islamic banks have to abide by strict Islamic laws and have to follow high ethics.

Reason why Sharia/Islamic mortgage is better than conventional mortgage is because 100% of your monthly payment goes toward principal. You can finish paying the loan faster.

With conventional bank, a large chunk of your monthly mortgage payment is interest payment.
 
Fee is generally reasonable. There are rules and regulations. Islamic banks are not supposed to rip people off like conventional banks do; pure Islamic banks have to abide by strict Islamic laws and have to follow high ethics.

Reason why Sharia/Islamic mortgage is better than conventional mortgage is because 100% of your monthly payment goes toward principal. You can finish paying the loan faster.

With conventional bank, a large chunk of your monthly mortgage payment is interest payment.

That is simply unsustainable and economically un-viable because the bank is not a charitable organization. It is a business in itself and has bills and salaries to pay. Where do the funds for the Islamic bank come from if interest is not charged on loans ?
 
You moved from BD TO Canada to tell how the Canadian current system is evil?
 
That is simply unsustainable and economically un-viable because the bank is not a charitable organization. It is a business in itself and has bills and salaries to pay. Where do the funds for the Islamic bank come from if interest is not charged on loans ?

It is quite sustainable and also very ethical. Nobody ends up paying ridiculous amount of interest fees. Nobody gets ripped off. One of the biggest themes of Islamic banking is transparency.

To understand how Islamic banks make money, read the article below:

Islamic Banking refers to a system of Banking or Banking activity that is based on the principles of the Shari'ah (Islamic rulings). According to the principles of Shari'ah the bank is not allowed to enter into or any act that involves (give and take of) interest. The prohibition on paying or receiving fixed interest is based on the Islamic tenet that money is only a medium of exchange; it has no value in itself, and therefore should not be allowed to give rise to more money, via fixed interest payments, simply by being put in a bank or by lending to someone else.

Hence, a frequently asked question is - how do Islamic banks make money if they cannot charge interests? The principal means of Islamic finance are based on trading, hence, banks can profit from the buying and selling of Shari'ah Compliant goods and services. Islamic financial institutions trade in Shari'ah-compliant investments with the money deposited by customers, sharing the risks and the profits between them.

Several structures that help Islamic Banks make profit are:

a) Ijara: Here, the bank buys an asset on behalf of the customer and leases it out to the same customer. Ownership of the asset remains with the bank, which is also responsible for its maintenance. The lease agreement is made for a certain period and after the time period gets over (and all the lease is paid off); the asset is transferred to the customer.

b) Murabaha: Here the bank acts as an intermediary and buys an asset like motor vehicle. This property is then sold to the customer at cost plus profit which is known and agreed. The customer pays back the value in deferred payments.

c) Wakala: The term wakala is used in Islamic finance to describe a contract of agency or delegated authority pursuant to which the principal (muwakkil) appoints an agent (wakeel) to carry out a specific task on its behalf (Source). Here, the bank works like an individual agent. The bank lends its expertise and manages investments of the customer on behalf of the customer for a particular duration, in order to generate an agreed upon profit return.

d) Salam: As per the Salam structure, the Bank pays a purchase price to the customer for an upfront purchase of a fungible commodity which will be delivered on a deferred basis by the customer. The commodity that is to be delivered to the Bank will be purchased by customer through a commodity broker and the Bank in turn, will assign another commodity broker to sell the commodity.

The above-mentioned points help a bank generate revenue through Islamic Banking. These days, more and more people are moving towards Islamic Banking and consumers worldwide are appreciating the principles of Islamic Banking.

Source: https://rakbank.ae/blog/posts/how-do-islamic-banks-work.
 
You moved from BD TO Canada to tell how the Canadian current system is evil?

Worldwide banking system is evil. Not just Canada.

Central banks and globalists are enslaving humanity.

Debt is slavery.
 
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It is quite sustainable and also very ethical. Nobody ends up paying ridiculous amount of interest fees. Nobody gets ripped off. One of the biggest themes of Islamic banking is transparency.

To understand how Islamic banks make money, read the article below:



Source: https://rakbank.ae/blog/posts/how-do-islamic-banks-work.


How is this different from charging interest ?


b) Murabaha: Here the bank acts as an intermediary and buys an asset like motor vehicle. This property is then sold to the customer at cost plus profit which is known and agreed. The customer pays back the value in deferred payments.


If the car dealership is selling me a car at $20K and the Islamic bank charges me $25K that $5K extra ( presumably paid over a period of time ) is the same as me paying interest to a conventional bank.
 
How is this different from charging interest ?

If the car dealership is selling me a car at $20K and the Islamic bank charges me $25K that $5K extra ( presumably paid over a period of time ) is the same as me paying interest to a conventional bank.

You are mixing up fixed fee with interest.

Interest generally compounds. Fee doesn't compound.

If buyer is not happy with the fee, he/she doesn't buy. Simple.

Like I mentioned, fee is generally reasonable because Islamic banks are not allowed to rip people off.
 
You are mixing up fixed fee with interest.

Interest generally compounds. Fee doesn't compound.

If buyer is not happy with the fee, he/she doesn't buy. Simple.

Like I mentioned, fee is generally reasonable because Islamic banks are not allowed to rip people off.

Not all interest compounds in a conventional bank loan the interest is decided upfront (Yes it is toploaded) and it never changes unless you default. So in normal circumstances there is no rip off. Therefore my question is how is the fee charged by Islamic bank different from the interest charged by the conventional bank ? Unless the fee is significantly less than the interest charged I see no difference.
 
You are mixing up fixed fee with interest.

Interest generally compounds. Fee doesn't compound.

If buyer is not happy with the fee, he/she doesn't buy. Simple.

Like I mentioned, fee is generally reasonable because Islamic banks are not allowed to rip people off.

You can refuse the car even now , no one is asking you to buy it also keep the money in current account as u said you do. So all good here..
 
Not all interest compounds in a conventional bank loan the interest is decided upfront (Yes it is toploaded) and it never changes unless you default. So in normal circumstances there is no rip off. Therefore my question is how is the fee charged by Islamic bank different from the interest charged by the conventional bank ? Unless the fee is significantly less than the interest charged I see no difference.

Let's just say Islamic banks don't make money from interests. They make money from trades, investments, and fees. The fees may appear like interest but it is not really interest.

There is no Islamic bank in Canada. So, I can't currently give you a practical example with actual rates.
 
Islamic system banking is only practical as profit/loss system as mentioned by somebody above.

They have to be shareholder over the house we are buying as long as loan is still being paid. Once the loan is paid off, the remaining profit that has gained over the house value should be paid to the shareholder. It is win-win. If it is loss, then shareholders get to keep the house.
 
You are mixing up fixed fee with interest.

Interest generally compounds. Fee doesn't compound.

If buyer is not happy with the fee, he/she doesn't buy. Simple.

Like I mentioned, fee is generally reasonable because Islamic banks are not allowed to rip people off.

You are just calling simple interest as non interest. It is STILL an interest.

Even if it is compound, it isn't unlimited. If you don't pay in time, it is your fault.
 
You are just calling simple interest as non interest. It is STILL an interest.

Even if it is compound, it isn't unlimited. If you don't pay in time, it is your fault.

Just because you call it so doesn't make it so.

There is clear difference between a fixed fee and interest. I don't know why I have to repeat it over and over.
 
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Just so you know, it is not just Muslims who oppose usury.

Christians used to give death penalty to those who used to charge interests.

Both Islam and Christianity oppose usury. I believe Judaism opposes it too.
 
Just because you call it so doesn't make it so.

There is clear difference between a fixed fee and interest. I don't know why I have to repeat it over and over.

Tell me how to calculate the fixed amount in Islamic banking system?
 
Evil of interest cannot be overstated. It is something that has been poisoning our society for many years. It has unfortunately become a part of modern financial system and there is no escaping it. It is almost everywhere.

So, how can we replace this system with something that is more ethical and more effective?

What makes you think charging interest is evil?
 
Just because you call it so doesn't make it so.

There is clear difference between a fixed fee and interest. I don't know why I have to repeat it over and over.

What if the interest rate drops during the period of the fixed fee? Suddenly the borrower will be disadvantaged. I suppose she could get a low interest usury loan instead and pay off the fixed fee rip-off rate with it.
 
Islamic banking is completely haraam, remember there were no such things as banks in the muslim world this is a Jewish invention, secondly with a so called Islamic bank they sell you the property at way above the market rate, if that is not Usuary, then what is? Since when is ripping people of 'Shariah compliant'.
 
Islamic banking is completely haraam, remember there were no such things as banks in the muslim world this is a Jewish invention, secondly with a so called Islamic bank they sell you the property at way above the market rate, if that is not Usuary, then what is? Since when is ripping people of 'Shariah compliant'.

Yes interest based banking is forbidden but do look at the model of Islamic finance presented by Mufti Taqi Usmani. Its great.
 
Islamic banking is completely haraam, remember there were no such things as banks in the muslim world this is a Jewish invention, secondly with a so called Islamic bank they sell you the property at way above the market rate, if that is not Usuary, then what is? Since when is ripping people of 'Shariah compliant'.

What's the best system then?
 
There's no method to calculate the fixed fee in the link.

All I am asking is, how to calculate the fixed fee?

There is no specific method. Fee can be anything but needs to be fixed. It can't be interest. Please see the article. I don't think you read it.
 
What makes you think charging interest is evil?

You have a Christian background. You know Usury is prohibited in all Abrahamic faiths. Why do you think that is the case?

Do you think central banks have the best interest for people in mind?
 
There is no specific method. Fee can be anything but needs to be fixed. It can't be interest. Please see the article. I don't think you read it.

.... In other words, no regulation except good will and faith.
 
There are some banks who claim to be Islamic banks but are not. Watch out for fraud.

Here's an interesting video from Zakir Naik:

 
Life was so much better back in the day. Being all by yourself, your camel and a pocket full of ripe khajoors being nothing but thankful to the almighty for the gift that is life.
 
You have a Christian background. You know Usury is prohibited in all Abrahamic faiths. Why do you think that is the case?

Do you think central banks have the best interest for people in mind?

You didn’t answer my question. And the Christian faith says having a leather handbag is evil.
 
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You think charging interest is evil because a book says so.

My definition of evil, not arrived at through books, is “to knowingly cause another harm”.

You didn’t answer my question. And the Christian faith says having a leather handbag is evil.

I believe leather handbag is evil because you are killing an animal for a stupid bag. There are other ways to make bags. So, Christianity is not wrong there.

Your question was what makes interest evil. Here's my answer:

Interest is evil because it increases the gap between rich and poor. Rich gets richer and poor gets poorer. A wealthy person can stop working and just live off interests.

Problem with that scenario is, those interests have to come from other sources because there is limited supplies of money. As interests keep on adding up, rich gets richer and money shortage takes place. Banks then have to print out more money and it eventually causes inflation. This cycle keeps on repeating.

Interest is a great thing for rich people as they can keep on getting richer without working. But, it is like a vampire for regular folks. It is why Abrahamic religions prohibit it. Islam promotes distribution of wealth and encourages charity.
 
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I believe leather handbag is evil because you are killing an animal for a stupid bag. There are other ways to make bags. So, Christianity is not wrong there.

Your question was what makes interest evil. Here's my answer:

Interest is evil because it increases the gap between rich and poor. Rich gets richer and poor gets poorer. A wealthy person can stop working and just live off interests.

Problem with that scenario is, those interests have to come from other sources because there is limited supplies of money. As interests keep on adding up, rich gets richer and money shortage takes place. Banks then have to print out more money and it eventually causes inflation. This cycle keeps on repeating.

Interest is a great thing for rich people as they can keep on getting richer without working. But, it is like a vampire for regular folks. It is why Abrahamic religions prohibit it. Islam promotes distribution of wealth and encourages charity.
What is the procedure when one doesn't pay the installment to the Islamic bank for a longer period of time?

Suppose I pay 10 out 60 installments in a personal loan and then for next 3 years, I didn't pay the installment. What will bank do in that case?
 
What is the procedure when one doesn't pay the installment to the Islamic bank for a longer period of time?

Suppose I pay 10 out 60 installments in a personal loan and then for next 3 years, I didn't pay the installment. What will bank do in that case?

Please read the article below:

It is necessary to bear in mind that there are basically two categories of financing, loans and investments. Under loans there is basically one type that is provided for by the Shariah which is Qard Al Hasan - a loan granted on compassionate grounds free of interest or service charge. Only certain categories of people qualify. The other category includes mudaraba, murabaha, ijarah, musharakah etc.

Islam makes a distinction between two categories of defaulting debtors. One type is he who defaults by necessity, i.e. a person whose financial situation is such that with the best of intentions he simply lacks the means of paying. The Qur'an is explicit that this is the debtor who deserves compassion and to be given a grace period. It is required that the defaulter be given respite until he is able to pay. The Holy Qur'an expressly states:

"And if the debtor is in difficulty, grant a delay until a time of ease. But if ye remit it (the debt) by way of charity, that is best for you if ye only knew. (2:280)

This verse suggests that creditors should readily grant pressed debtors additional time to pay. Islam does not encourage a creditor to give an extension to every debtor who defaults. The extension is for debtors in genuinely dire straits.

As for the second type, the debtor who refuses to pay even though he has the

means, he is a perpetrator of injustice (zulm) who, far from deserving alms, exposes himself to possible punishment.

The Holy Prophet SAW condemns the person who delays the payment of his dues without a valid cause. He said in a hadith "The well off person who delays the payment of his debt subjects himself to punishment and disgrace".

The fulfilment of one's obligation under all contracts is a religious duty for every Muslim. Allah says:

"O ye who believe! Fulfil (all) your undertakings." (5:1) And He says:"...and keep the covenant. Lo! of the covenant it will be asked." (17:34)

So he who defaults deliberately contravenes Allah's law. The Prophet S.A.W. for this reason said in a hadith: " the defaulting (matl) of a man of means (ghaniyy) is wickedness (zulm)."

With regards to enforcement of the debt, the contract entered into between the Islamic financial institution and its client is legal and valid and in the event of default the Islamic financial institution can exercise its right in court to enforce the contract based on a creditor and debtor relationship.Some Islamic jurists hold that that which is compulsory in religion is enforceable in law. Also there is a majority view that anything prohibited in the Shari'ah if committed can be punished under what is called ta'zeer, where the punishment is not specified.

On the penalty to be imposed on the defaulter, the Judge exercises his discretion depending on the nature of default. He can admonish, threaten, disgrace or even jail the defaulter and if necessary dispose of his asset to pay the debt. However, it is generally agreed by Islamic jurists that a monetary fine is not one of the options open to the Judge in this case as this would amount to a monetary penalty for delayed payment, which is riba or interest.

Some contemporary views suggest that such a fine is permissible if it is applied to charity as a deterrent, but this seems to some as, at best, doubtful in its validity.

On what measures an Islamic bank can take to protect itself from defaulting clients, firstly, Islamic banks operating in a non-Islamic environment will need to ensure that the laws of the land punish defaulters on commercial contracts or have deterrents as a fall-back. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly the onus is higher in an Islamic bank for establishing the character of the borrower, by obtaining a character reference, possibly a credit check of the client's past borrowings. The primary assumption is that this situation should not arise as every true Muslim should pay his debts when due as a religious obligation.

And Allah knows best

Source: https://www.islamic-banking.com/exp...-banking-finance#Debtor defaulting in payment.
 
The idea that interest is "usury" is a medieval notion that doesn't fit with modern capitalism.

Here are some facts about the way the modern world works:

1) Entrepreneurs need investors to bring new products into this world. Investors may finance entrepreneurs by buying either debt or equity.

2) Investors have different goals, some require a fixed return (for example retired folks) while others are willing to take on more risk for the possibility of a higher return. A fixed return with less risk earns a lower average return, this is the risk return tradeoff of modern finance.

3) Other than appetite for risk, investors may also differ from each other in their ability to assess the prospects of new projects. In a world of imperfect information, those who have a poor ability to assess risk will prefer debt while those with superior ability will prefer equity.

Debt and equity are broadly the two methods by which projects are financed, there are rational reasons why debt may be used.
 
The idea that interest is "usury" is a medieval notion that doesn't fit with modern capitalism.

Here are some facts about the way the modern world works:

1) Entrepreneurs need investors to bring new products into this world. Investors may finance entrepreneurs by buying either debt or equity.

2) Investors have different goals, some require a fixed return (for example retired folks) while others are willing to take on more risk for the possibility of a higher return. A fixed return with less risk earns a lower average return, this is the risk return tradeoff of modern finance.

3) Other than appetite for risk, investors may also differ from each other in their ability to assess the prospects of new projects. In a world of imperfect information, those who have a poor ability to assess risk will prefer debt while those with superior ability will prefer equity.

Debt and equity are broadly the two methods by which projects are financed, there are rational reasons why debt may be used.

Capitalism is cancer. It promotes greed and encourages unhealthy consumerism. It also increases the gap between rich and poor.

Debt is never a good thing to have. Equity is the way forward.
 
The idea that interest is "usury" is a medieval notion that doesn't fit with modern capitalism.

Here are some facts about the way the modern world works:

1) Entrepreneurs need investors to bring new products into this world. Investors may finance entrepreneurs by buying either debt or equity.

2) Investors have different goals, some require a fixed return (for example retired folks) while others are willing to take on more risk for the possibility of a higher return. A fixed return with less risk earns a lower average return, this is the risk return tradeoff of modern finance.

3) Other than appetite for risk, investors may also differ from each other in their ability to assess the prospects of new projects. In a world of imperfect information, those who have a poor ability to assess risk will prefer debt while those with superior ability will prefer equity.

Debt and equity are broadly the two methods by which projects are financed, there are rational reasons why debt may be used.

Investment is perfectly fine as long as you (the investor) shares the risk of loss.

Suppose you invest in a start up and they give you an equity stake in it. The start up does well, the value increases and you make money. However if it goes belly up, you lose your investment. Similarly if fixed income if tied to the profit a company makes that is fine. Same if the company goes under, you lose your investment.

Issue arises if you are given a loan with an interest clause which you have to pay, even if your project goes bankrupt.
 
Investment is perfectly fine as long as you (the investor) shares the risk of loss.

Suppose you invest in a start up and they give you an equity stake in it. The start up does well, the value increases and you make money. However if it goes belly up, you lose your investment. Similarly if fixed income if tied to the profit a company makes that is fine. Same if the company goes under, you lose your investment.

Issue arises if you are given a loan with an interest clause which you have to pay, even if your project goes bankrupt.

Actually you don't have to pay anything if your project goes bankrupt and you set up your firm as a "Limited Liability". Only the firm is liable, not you.

The firm may be taken over by the debtors if it is unable to pay the debtors. There is a large literature on the most efficient capital structure (mix of debt and equity) in finance journals.

The starting point of understanding these issues is the (most famous in corporate finance) Modigliani-Miller Theorem, which says that in the absence of transaction costs, taxes and information asymmetry, borrowers and lenders should be indifferent between debt and equity. Then there is a large literature about what happens in the real world when Modigliani-Miller assumptions are not true.
 
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Investment is perfectly fine as long as you (the investor) shares the risk of loss.

Capitalism is cancer. It promotes greed and encourages unhealthy consumerism. It also increases the gap between rich and poor.

Debt is never a good thing to have. Equity is the way forward.


You do not understand modern finance.

There may be an investor who doesn't want to share the risk. Who would be such an investor? Could be someone in their 60s who are looking to live out the rest of their lives in moderate comfort.

There may be an entrepreneur who believes that the market doesn't understand the value of his project (imperfect information) so is willing to sell only debt and not equity (as equity will be underpriced by the market).

Bringing this investor and entrepreneur together in a debt contract is economically efficient.

"you are given a loan with an interest clause which you have to pay, even if your project goes bankrupt". The Europeans solved this obstacle to efficient contracts over 500 years ago when they invented "limited liability".
 
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You do not understand modern finance.

There may be an investor who doesn't want to share the risk. Who would be such an investor? Could be someone in their 60s who are looking to live out the rest of their lives in moderate comfort.

There may be an entrepreneur who believes that the market doesn't understand the value of his project (imperfect information) so is willing to sell only debt and not equity (as equity will be underpriced by the market).

Bringing this investor and entrepreneur together in a debt contract is economically efficient.

"you are given a loan with an interest clause which you have to pay, even if your project goes bankrupt". The Europeans solved this obstacle to efficient contracts over 500 years ago when they invented "limited liability".

Modern finance is not rocket science. Also, you are making it sound like modern finance is some kind of perfect holy grail. It is not.

Modern system is broken and it is about time we burn it to the ground and come up with something more efficient.

I bet you consider central banks as filled with lovely people. Don't you?
 
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Modern finance is not rocket science. Also, you are making it sound like modern finance is some kind of perfect holy grail. It is not.

Modern system is broken and it is about time we burn it to the ground and come up with something more efficient.

I bet you consider central banks as filled with lovely people. Don't you?
When there is no regulation about the "fixed" amount, when you'll be hold liable based upon judgement from the authorities about whether you are intentionally not paying the monthly installment or your circumstances are forcing you.... It is a mess. You are giving too much power to the authorities and it could yield more drastic effect than capitalism. Because there's no fixed rules in the place

When you default an installment, you exactly know what the interest will be, what will be the next principal in the next financial year and what will be the overdue if there is any.

Atleast you can prepare yourself and make it a NPA where by you can actually negotiate with the bank to lower the amount. Your credit score will take a hit but it's not like that will be the end of the world.

Modern finance is evil because people don't pay attention to terms and conditions and then cry later.
 
Modern finance is not rocket science. Also, you are making it sound like modern finance is some kind of perfect holy grail. It is not.

Modern system is broken and it is about time we burn it to the ground and come up with something more efficient.

I bet you consider central banks as filled with lovely people. Don't you?

Your kind of thinking is the reason why you (or your ancestors) left the subcontinent and ended up in North America.

Modern capitalism has made the European, North American and East Asian countries very desirable places to live in compared to non-capitalist societies. Capitalism is not perfect but it is way better than government control.

It is not only central bankers who use debt, but the vast majority of common folks in capitalist countries use various kinds of financial securities (debt, equity etc.) to do life cycle planning. If you ever plan to retire, you better use the capitalist system to pay for your retirement years. You certainly won't say "about time we burn it to the ground" then.

If you think different kinds of financial securities that are created due to market demand is not economic efficiency, it is best that I exit this thread now.
 
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When there is no regulation about the "fixed" amount, when you'll be hold liable based upon judgement from the authorities about whether you are intentionally not paying the monthly installment or your circumstances are forcing you.... It is a mess. You are giving too much power to the authorities and it could yield more drastic effect than capitalism. Because there's no fixed rules in the place

When you default an installment, you exactly know what the interest will be, what will be the next principal in the next financial year and what will be the overdue if there is any.

Atleast you can prepare yourself and make it a NPA where by you can actually negotiate with the bank to lower the amount. Your credit score will take a hit but it's not like that will be the end of the world.

Modern finance is evil because people don't pay attention to terms and conditions and then cry later.

Solution is very simple. Don't take unnecessary loan. Stay within your means.

Problem with today's society is the fact many people don't have good money management skills. Greed and consumerism consume them.

Any literate person can read what the terms and conditions are. That's not the issue. Issue is with the system itself.
 
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