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How did you rate the late Bob Woolmer as a coach?

Slog

Slog

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Lets say the unfortunate incident had not happened and he was still alive today. Would Pakistan fans have remembered him fondly.

He got an embarrassing first round WC exit where his tactics were all over the place

He failed to have any control over the dressing room.

Particularly disappointing was the England 2006 tour for me. And 2006 home series 4-1 ODI loss to India.

Obv he was a great person. And for some individual players he was a great coach. But really he is remembered fondly as some ATG coach for Pakistan whereas his legacy in ICC tournaments is fairly poor for us. First round exits in 2006 ct and WC.
 
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a very good topic to discuss. Some people should stop making everything a taboo like those culture freaks.

This is a topic i always myself wondered about

Yes he died, but lets talk about reality over here.

Bob Woolmer's reputation was going downhill back in 2007. The champions trophy performance didnt look good. I remember people hated him and Inzi back in the day. And he most probably would had faced the heat after that Ireland loss
 
Major said:
a very good topic to discuss.

Yes he died, but lets talk about reality over here.

Bob Woolmer's reputation was going downhill back in 2007. The champions trophy performance didnt look good. I remember people hated him and Inzi back in the day. And he most probably would had faced the heat after that Ireland loss
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I genuinely think he would have been sacked post WC

I know its a sensitive topic which is why i put the disclaimer and im not even sure if its worth discussing if it hurts sentiments (mods can remove if they feel so). But it most def is a genuine question
 
For a guy who was a renowned coach, he allowed Inzamam and others to have such terrible fitness
 
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Major said:
For a guy who was a renowned coach, he allowed Inzamam and others to have such terrible fitness
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yes he was fairly lax on discipline and team culture.

Asif and akhtar would be in and out due to drugs, fitness etc whenever they wished it. And there were no repurcussions or standards set to stop their shenanigans.

But he was very popular with the players. And knowing our players arent the greatest workers it prolly was that he wasnt as tough on them as he needed to be like Mickey is these days
 
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He certainly would have had gotten the rough end of the stick from the Pakistani media for crashing out in the first round after losing to minnows Ireland and neither-here-nor-there Windies.
 
Title has been changed to preserve good taste.
 
I clearly remember Ramiz Raja on the eve of Pakistan' world cup exit to Ireland 'well this just sums up everything, Bob Woolmer putting the laptop in his bag, enough of the laptop!!' He had some very harsh words for Bob Woolmer after that, like the team has been steadily declining and this is the worst phase of Pakistan cricket.. etc etc.

Even before this Ramiz Raja has said some insulting remarks for Bob in the show 'Safar nahi hai asaan'.. what is Bob Woolmer trying to do as a coach?

Imran Khan went one step further said what does Bob Woolmer know about bowling 'in the Kerry Pecker series Bob Woolmer used to be the 12th man, how many games has he played? What does he know about cricket? If he knows so much what are we paying him so much money for?'

Inzi used to defend him on the show... saying nobody has time to teach basics to the players when they don't know them.

I'm pointing out all this, that no matter what we think of Bob Woolmer, I as a viewer from the TV was made to believe Bob Woolmer was the s**ttiest coach on this planet, and he didn't know 2 cents on cricket from our cricketing greats... who just stood there and spewed rubbish on TV.

It was only after his death did his perception change... for fans and ex cricketers alike
 
Syed1 said:
He certainly would have had gotten the rough end of the stick from the Pakistani media for crashing out in the first round after losing to minnows Ireland and neither-here-nor-there Windies.
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He was already in media and lobby bad books... specially our ex cricketers who made no secret of their remarks against him
 
Woolmer was a very good coach and Pakistan was high in the rankings under his and Inzi's reign. The damage started after Woolmer passed away and Inzamam retired and the dressing room lost its leaders. Then players like Malik, Yousuf and Akhtar turned it into a Game of Thrones season.
 
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Asif and Akhtar were banned in 2006 start initially. However for almost 18 months they were allowed to treat the team as their property going and coming when they wished. There was no planning done to ensure that if they werent there we had a good plan B. And any one couldve known they will bail out in WC when there needed to be a dope test.
 
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Bilal7 said:
Woolmer was a very good coach and Pakistan was high in the rankings under his and Inzi's reign. The damage started after Woolmer passed away and Inzamam retired and the dressing room lost its leaders. Then players like Malik, Yousuf and Akhtar turned it into a Game of Thrones season.
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Yes damage started after WC 2007.

But we lost to Ireland and WI in WC 2007 and got knocked out first round

We lost 4-1 at home to India.

First round knockout in 2006 CT

I am ONLY talking cricket here
 
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He was a great coach, his career was more than Pakistan coach. He worked with children a lot too. When was in South Africa he also was a hockey coach and chose a mixed club over an all white club. He coached various counties too and was a great analyst using computer data to assist his coaching when many coaches at this time weren't familiar with such coaching methods. As a coach he will remain one of the very best of all time.

Pakistan fans might see his tenure as not very successful but he had to deal with Pakistan politics and a poor board which gave him some serious rubbish to work with.
 
KingKhanWC said:
He was a great coach, his career was more than Pakistan coach. He worked with children a lot too. When was in South Africa he also was a hockey coach and chose a mixed club over an all white club. He coached various counties too and was a great analyst using computer data to assist his coaching when many coaches at this time weren't familiar with such coaching methods. As a coach he will remain one of the very best of all time.

Pakistan fans might see his tenure as not very successful but he had to deal with Pakistan politics and a poor board which gave him some serious rubbish to work with.
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Obviously he was a great cricketing mind and that is why we got him in the first place.

And tbf he worked wonders for first 20 months or so. But overall the results were average
 
He was a brilliant coach and very insightful, anyone who reads his books will tell you he was ahead of his time. The problem was our ageing stars, and their attitude to work, Sir Alex ferguson wouldn't have fared any better with this bad bunch. Give him a team of hungry youngsters like we are developing today and things would have been a lot different.
 
silentkiller187 said:
He was a brilliant coach and very insightful, anyone who reads his books will tell you he was ahead of his time. The problem was our ageing stars, and their attitude to work, Sir Alex ferguson wouldn't have fared any better with this bad bunch. Give him a team of hungry youngsters like we are developing today and things would have been a lot different.
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So did he not have enough power to cull lazy seniors?

I think he had a great cricketing brain and was good with tactics but was not a strong man manager
 
He was a father figure and someone who got the best out of many cricketers. But there in lay the issue as well. During his tenure Inzi + friends feasted and meritocracy, discipline became rare. The reason guys like Asim Kamal, Misbah ul Haq did not get a place despite better FC performances than Malik, Afridi etc.

Someone like Umar Akmal would have played every game under Woolmer despite his belly by just doing Inzi bhai, Inzi bhai all the time.
 
Slog said:
Yes damage started after WC 2007.

But we lost to Ireland and WI in WC 2007 and got knocked out first round

We lost 4-1 at home to India.

First round knockout in 2006 CT

I am ONLY talking cricket here
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It was the end of an era. Inzamam had declined, our bowlers were always banned or injured and the that is without considering how difficult it is to replace guys like Wasim and Waqar. Same was the case with our openers, none of whom was anywhere close to Anwar and Saqlain Mushtaq was crippled as well.

2007 was the point from which Pakistan cricket had to be rebooted with fresh blood, a strong captain and coach but things went completely south because until Misbah, there was no a single captain who was as strong and morally straight as Inzamam ul Haq. Woolmer's death of course was another shock that hit our cricket hard.
 
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Prince of Pakistan said:
Someone like Umar Akmal would have played every game under Woolmer despite his belly by just doing Inzi bhai, Inzi bhai all the time.
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This is true. And therein lies the problem

In fact Najam Sethi or Sheheryar said that Misbah didnt get a chance under Inzi because of this exact reason. Though tbh i dont put much stock in what those 2 say
 
Don't let his untimely death lead you into thinking he was elevated to martyrdom. Woolmer was a top coach who would've achieved more with Pakistan had he worked in a more professional environment.

It's true the three ICC tournament displays (blighted by collapses on greentops to WI, SAF and IRE which never are seen in ICC events nowadays) under him are a blot on his record. However the preparations for the 2006 CT and 2007 WC were far from ideal.

The 2006 CT was marred by the aftermath of Ovalgate, Younis initially rejecting the captaincy and Akhtar and Asif's Nandrolone affair.

Both were out of control at this point, doping then faking injuries to avoid drug testing robbing us of our two best pacers at the 2007 WC. Akhtar was recorded even pushing Woolmer at one point - shows you what kind of man he is.

It was Woolmer's record in bilateral series that he's fondly remembered for. If you can draw a Test series away to India and then come from 2-0 to beat them 4-2 in an ODI series, with frickin' Rana Naved and Rao Iftikhar as your pace spearheads then you're a miracle worker.

We beat Sri Lanka away in 2006, who had a strong side then, and an Ashes winning England at home in both formats. Infact we were unbeaten in home Test series
which was important given how many home series we shelled in the late 1990s and early 2000s.

Its not just results but his record in player identification and development that was exemplary. Inzamam, Yousuf, Butt, Akmal, Asif, Naved, Rao, Afridi and Malik all enjoyed their peaks under him.
 
Prince of Pakistan said:
He was a father figure and someone who got the best out of many cricketers. But there in lay the issue as well. During his tenure Inzi + friends feasted and meritocracy, discipline became rare. The reason guys like Asim Kamal, Misbah ul Haq did not get a place despite better FC performances than Malik, Afridi etc.

Someone like Umar Akmal would have played every game under Woolmer despite his belly by just doing Inzi bhai, Inzi bhai all the time.
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Misbah has himself said that he wasn't good enough for international cricket until 2007-08. The stats reflect that. At that point he was basically an Umar Amin and unlike Umar Amin, had to compete with three of Pakistan's greatest batsmen of all time. Considering that #6 was the all-rounder's position, Misbah wasn't getting in that team on merit.
 
Prince of Pakistan said:
The reason guys like Asim Kamal, Misbah ul Haq did not get a place despite better FC performances than Malik, Afridi etc.
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Woolmer wanted a 5th bowler - that's why Malik, Razzaq amd Afridi all had stints at #6. There was no conspiracy against Asim Kamal or Misbah - our middle order was stacked then.

I remember Misbah thanking Inzamam at his retirement press conference in 2015 for helping his career which he didn't have to do, nor would've done if there was any animosity. He had no issues with Inzamam's appointment as Chief Selector either so I think these rumours of bad blood between them is exaggerated.
 
Markhor said:
Woolmer wanted a 5th bowler - that's why Malik, Razzaq amd Afridi all had stints at #6. There was no conspiracy against Asim Kamal or Misbah - our middle order was stacked then.

I remember Misbah thanking Inzamam at his retirement press conference in 2015 for helping his career which he didn't have to do, nor would've done if there was any animosity. He had no issues with Inzamam's appointment as Chief Selector either so I think these rumours of bad blood between them is exaggerated.
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We did give many matches to Faisal Iqbal and Hasan Raza at that position
 
I feel he was overrated.

Pakistan had disasters in the 2006 Champions Trophy and 2007 World Cup under his coaching.
Lost an ODI series 4-1 to India at home in 2006.
Got humiliated in the ODI series in South Africa before the World Cup of 2007.
 
He galvanised a team full of egos and worked with them despite power struggles.

Wasim Akram and Waqar Younis just gone and the void they left caused the likes of Afridi, Akhtar, Inzi, Mohammed Yousaf and Younis Khan all wanting to stake a claim. Inzi was clearly the senior but politics was rife.

I felt Woolmer did well and made Pakistan likeable on an international level. We were all on Pak Passion distraught at the time of his death, very much like we lost a close loved uncle.
 
Bob was a good coach. I have read his articles and it was apparent he relied on systematic analysis many factors to prepare the team well. He was successful with South Africa. But that team had so many super players.

When Bob was appointed as Pakistan's coach, I had a chance conversation with an Indian sports journalist. He was not hopeful if Bob could replicate the same success with Pakistan. He believed the lack of professionalism and discipline in Pakistan team would be a major hurdle to see a progress. And he was right. Except in odd cases/series, the team continued to play in their own inconsistent ways.
 
Pakistan setup was not right for him, he was in the twilight of his career and as such probably overlooked a lot of things he should have contained, like the dressing room. As a coach overall he was ahead of his time lots of analytical work and his man management skills were second to none hearing other players talk about him.
 
He is probably the father of modern day coaching. He used to be called "laptop coach".

Great coach and I rate him highly.
 
Woolmer would have done well coaching the side minus Inzamams presence
 
Good County player. Moderate test player. Excellent coach at Warwickshire, SA and then Pakistan.
 
The last 15 months of his stint was disastrous for Pakistan. Considering that Pakistan had to replace ODI giants like Waqar, Wasim , Saqi, Anwar and still were highly competitive in ODIs says quite a bit about him imo. Although , like I said , 2006 onwards it all fell apart and Pakistan never really recovered in ODIs after that period
 
Nobody has broken down technique in simple terms better than Bob Woolmer has in his coaching videos. He was a brilliant 'explainer' with a good eye for talent.
 
Bob was a cricketing mastermind and in addition to his technical insight what stood out for me is his emphasis on the psychological side of cricket, he put equal emphasis on the fundamentals and the state of ones mind, this allowed him to manage some seriously testing personalities. Quiet frankly I am shocked to read some of the posts in this thread, Woolmer for the most part bought a very rare level of consistency to the Pakistan team and this was reflected in the ODI and Test rankings; in ICC events things didn't go our way but people need to use the little brain cells they have left to read about how our preparations were seriously damaged each time on short notice. Bob's resume at the domestic and national level is there for all to see he is the greatest coach in history, Pak fans who are being disrespectful in this moment should be smacked; be thankful he was able to achieve notable success in your extremely toxic environment where behaving like a chaprasi village idiot was the norm.
 
He was interviewing for England’s HC position pre-CWC 2007. Someone needs to verify this but I heard ECB approached him in 2007 for HC.
 
Shouldn’t be blamed for 2007. Fixing was clearly afoot. If he is to be blamed, it is because he fixed (wouldn’t he surprised given he coached Hansie Cronje’s team) and that doesn’t correspond to his coaching ability.

As a coach, he was a true genius, but much the same way that Wasim Akram was.
 
Bob's birthday today - How good was he as a Coach?
 
I was quite a vocal critic of Bob Woolmer at the time. I think he had some great points but his general “sum of the parts” mentality was all wrong for a Pakistan team.

He wanted all round cricketers, and something like that could work with a disciplined outfit who’s out cricket was great like the South African team he coached.

He would be great for Pakistan as a long term academy coach to improve out cricket and discipline. But trying to apply that formula was not quite what the team needed who were out on the field. Bob wanted to build a team who didn’t rely on matchwinners. He wanted control bowlers opposed to attacking bowlers

Bob Woolmer wasn’t very fond of Shoaib Akhtar and his lack of discipline. shoaib himself was probably to blame here too. He was almost forced to pick shoaib for the England 2005 series. Even after the first test he didn’t give shoaib much credit. Eventually he accepted it and they seemed to have a decent relationship.

However, Bob’s finest hour was that England series and it required match winning outstanding performances from both of his matchwinners shoaib and inzamam and to a lesser extent yousuf in the final test. So it kind of went against his fundamental principles of team over matchwinners.

I think around 2005/6 he was starting to get the balance right, but when shoaib and Asif were injured / banned he had to rely on a lot of the bowlers he nurtured based on his cricketing beliefs. This turned out to be a disaster.

Both he and inzamam almost neutered Sami by reducing his run up and getting him to slow down. So much so that the scared little Sami that toured England in 2006 was unrecognisable from the tearaway, confident quick that toured in the 2003 ODI series. If you don’t believe me watch the difference in Sami’s pace and body language in those two series and compare.

Having said all that, he did make the team a tougher outfit with the backs to the wall drawn series against india in 2005 without shoaib and co. Bob will always be synonymous with Pakistan cricket and I believe he did improve players such as yousuf and younis. He had a great love for Pakistan which whether you liked his coaching or not you can appreciate the person.

Overall good guy and right now if he was an option for the current team they could learn much from him. We have had some truly woeful coaches of late. So compared to them give me Bob any day of the week.
 
Younis and Yousaf made giant leaps in test cricket under him. Afridi's bowling developed greatly and his batting was at its most consistent under him. Shoaib Malik's batting improved massively as well.

In short, some individuals experienced good growth and maturity under him but he was unable to curb Inzamam's rigid philosophy and ever growing power which held the team back. Plus the clique of players had lasting influence in Pak Cricket for the next few years and not in a good way. I guess he made the players coachable with his techniques which in the past deserted us. Our players had always had reluctance to learn from coaches (especially the not great players of their day). As a team, our team kept blowing hot and cold and was under delivered majority of the time. It had become painful to see us set totals. We became good chasers under him though.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/OnThisDay?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#OnThisDay</a> in 2007. The much-loved and highly respected Bob Woolmer sadly passed away <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cricket</a> <a href="https://t.co/fmGLjHhJeQ">pic.twitter.com/fmGLjHhJeQ</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@SajSadiqCricket) <a href="https://twitter.com/SajSadiqCricket/status/1637002759042916353?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 18, 2023</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
Firebat said:
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-partner="tweetdeck"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/OnThisDay?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#OnThisDay</a> in 2007. The much-loved and highly respected Bob Woolmer sadly passed away <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Cricket?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#Cricket</a> <a href="https://t.co/fmGLjHhJeQ">pic.twitter.com/fmGLjHhJeQ</a></p>— Saj Sadiq (@SajSadiqCricket) <a href="https://twitter.com/SajSadiqCricket/status/1637002759042916353?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 18, 2023</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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I’d argue that he’s Pakistan’s best ever coach, in terms of player development. Was fully invested in his role and really brought through and developed multiple players.

Was unfortunate to be handling the egos of the post 90s era.

Put Bob Woolmer in charge of the current set of Pakistani talent, and we would have won a world title by now.
 
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