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How do Pakistanis feel about playing a series in Bangladesh?

Junaids

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I grew up in the UK and identify as British. I felt anger when Argentina invaded the Falkland Islands, and I still feel guilt about the return of Hong Kong Island and Kowloon to China in 1997 when they had been ceded to the UK in perpetuity.

My father grew up in Pakistan, and my 1969 birth certificate (wrongly) records my father's place of birth as "Pakistan". But in reality, he was born and brought up in Dacca, in what is now Bangladesh.

Today Pakistan has started a Test series in Chittagong, Bangladesh.

Had Pakistan not fallen apart in 1971, this is what Pakistan's list of largest cities now would look like:

1. Dhaka 21 million
2. Karachi 16 million
3. Lahore 11 million
4. Chittagong 9 million
5. Islamabad / Rawalpindi 5 million

The stadium where Pakistan is playing right now is named after Zahur Ahmed Chowdhury, former Assistant Secretary of the Pakistan Trade Union Federation but later imprisoned for leading the Six Point movement for East Pakistani autonomy.

That in itself is worth reviewing. West Pakistan - modern Pakistan - from 1947 to 1971 had 36% of the population of Pakistan, while East Pakistan was 64% of the population.

But the government was controlled from what is now Pakistan, and lavished 71% of government spending on the 36% of the population which lived in modern Pakistan. In effect, they spent four times as much on themselves as on the majority of the population of Pakistan, which was Bengali.

I consider myself an outsider looking in. I don't identify with Bangladesh or Pakistan.

But the price that modern Pakistan paid for using Bangladesh to subsidise itself was extraordinary. Pakistan managed to lose 64% of its population in 1971.

Jump forward to 2021.

Pakistan - the former West Pakistan - has a population of 225 million sharing an economy of $296 billion, which is just $1,315 per person. Only 59.13% of Pakistanis are literate, and life expectancy is 67.27 years.

Bangladesh - the former East Pakistan - has controlled its fertility and now has a population of 161 million sharing an economy of $409 billion, which is $2,540 per person. 75.6% of Bangladeshis are literate, and life expectancy is 73.00 years.

In effect, when West Pakistan lost East Pakistan it started a long march into being the poorer, less educated, less developed of the two countries.

But of course Pakistan still has a far stronger cricket team!

So my question is this. How do you as Pakistanis feel returning to your lost territory, playing as foreigners in land that was yours? How do you feel about your elders alienating and losing the majority of your compatriots? And how do you feel about the Bangladeshis outperforming Pakistan in pretty much everything except cricket?

I'm not trying to rub it in. These are the same questions that Czechs must ask about Slovakia, and that Serbs must ask about Bosnians.
 
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India has progressed better than Pakistan too and the gap will most definitely increase in the future, does it mean the Pakistanis should regret the partition too?

There are some things in history which are irreversible and people just have to accept and get over it. It is pointless to feel regret over things that have happened in the past and I don't think Pakistanis need to feel regretful over the liberation of Bangladesh because I think it was always going to happen. West Pakistan and East Pakistan union was a bit of an artificial union, despite both being muslim states and the union never going to last. They were two different people separated by a huge distance, with a hostile country in between. Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are both muslim majority regions and that is why they were together after partition, but the similarities end with religion.

Ideologically, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are different people. Pakistanis use Islam as a way of uniting themselves and nationalism in Pakistan is a form of religious expression really. While religion is hugely important for Bangladeshis too, the nationalism in Bangladesh is heavily interlinked with their language. It is not that Pakistanis don't love their languages as much, but Bangladeshis (and just Bengalis in general are very passionate about their language). So while it was not hard for Punjabis or Pashtuns or Sindhis to adopt Urdu as their national language, that was never going to happen with the Bengalis and attempting to doing so in East Pakistan was misguided from the leaders in West Pakistan. This is not much different to the culture difference between north indians and south indians. The leaders in Delhi did try to do the same with hindi, but to their credit, they backtracked after protests against hindi imposition. The leaders in Pakistan weren't so clever and tried to impose Urdu on the Bengali population in East Pakistan come what may, which only aggravated the fractures in the union that was already vulnerable due to the reasons you mentioned in your opening post.

Secondly, politics in Bangladesh tends to be of socialist in nature, it's not so much the case in Pakistan. Socialist party did exist in Pakistan but was soon disbanded after independence. Leaders like Liaquat Ali Khan and Zulfikhar Ali Bhutto fiddled with socialism but they were not socialists in the real sense. Liaquat Ali Khan put forth the ideology of "islamic socialism" and within 2 years after independence, passed the Objectives resolution which established Islam as the state religion that changed the 'Republic of Pakistan' to the 'Islamic Republic of Pakistan'. Bhutto meanwhile started his own party the PPP which operated along the same lines of islamic socialism and its manifesto started with the lines "Islam is our religion..", and these small shifts only paved the way for the country to become a religious state under Zia. In comparison, there was a good presence of socialism and communist movements in East Pakistan (just like in West Bengal) and Suhrawardy argued that the word "muslim" be dropped from the Muslim League. He argued that since the Muslim League's objective of achieving a nation state under religion was achieved after partition, having the word muslim was no longer necessary and that the ideology should be based purely on nationalism under the sovereignty of Pakistan instead. He didn't find takers to his argument in West Pakistan though. However, in East Pakistan, the Awami Muslim league soon became the Awami league eventually after dropping the word muslim from the party name and aligning the ideology based on 4 principles that included nationalism, socialism, secularism and democracy.

In short, the ideology in West Pakistan increasingly transformed into the idea of a theocratic state while East Pakistanis were comparatively much more secular. These are just some of the minor ideological differences and combined with the economic deprivation and heavy handed action, the union was never going to last in any case. Whatever the ideological state that Pakistan wants to become is not for others to choose but only Pakistanis to decide, and Pakistan must aspire to advance itself economically and politically irrespective of whatever path its erstwhile partner in union, Bangladesh has taken and I don't see how dwelling on the past will do any good.
 
Nobody really cares or thinks about it in the detail that you have described, apart from outsiders looking in.
 
bro we have done many tours of Bangladesh in the past, why you didnt ask these questions thn ? this thread doesnt make any sense at all. if you create this thread to rub it. thn your are very late. but whatever . it was past. we have move on.
 
I see Bangladesh as a rightly separate country so nice to see cricket matches going on, even though I'm not following it as it's not on Sky. Don't really care about the financial stuff, Pakistanis live according to their own values and seems for them money isn't everything.

Incidentally when Argentina invaded the Falklands, I didn't feel anger, I was wondering how was a territory halfway across the world British in the first place. I'd never even heard of it before then.
 
I see Bangladesh as a rightly separate country so nice to see cricket matches going on, even though I'm not following it as it's not on Sky. Don't really care about the financial stuff, Pakistanis live according to their own values and seems for them money isn't everything.

Incidentally when Argentina invaded the Falklands, I didn't feel anger, I was wondering how was a territory halfway across the world British in the first place. I'd never even heard of it before then.

When I read of Junaid's statements of feeling severely disappointed on losing territories halfway across the world from Britain in Falklands and Hong Kong, I thought how very British:91:
 
Most Pakistanis don't care, the financial and political stuff you mentioned is oversimplified and can be disputed. I personally think Bengal shouldn't have been part of Pakistan from the beginning, there should've been an independent United Bengal, an idea that was floated around the time of partition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Bengal
 
Bangladesh toured Pakistan in 2019 and 2020. It was only ethical and morally correct to tour them in exchange.
 
Most pakistanis today dont see bengalis as ex countrymen or people they have much in common with apart from religion Maybe because there was no land border and very little similarity in genetics, culture or langauge

They just see it as another south asian country Nothing more or less
 
No one cares.

How do you as Pakistanis feel returning to your lost territory, playing as foreigners in land that was yours?
It was never "our" land. It was always land of people who lived inside it. Not everyone has a colonial mindset.

How do you feel about your elders alienating and losing the majority of your compatriots?
My elders did not. I never ever felt that way.

And how do you feel about the Bangladeshis outperforming Pakistan in pretty much everything except cricket?
Great for them. Pak should learn from it and improve.
 
Most pakistanis today dont see bengalis as ex countrymen or people they have much in common with apart from religion Maybe because there was no land border and very little similarity in genetics, culture or langauge

They just see it as another south asian country Nothing more or less

I would say there is a lot of similarity in food and to an extent in culture and language (Indo-European language conncetion) but Bangladeshis no longer have that connection to a sort of pan-south asian identity or the type of connection you forge being members of a multi-ethnic country so that have become more different in the past 50 years, I think Indian Bengalis have been more influenced by North Indians than Bangladeshis cause they didn't split. IF every single state and province in south Asia became independent then I think there would be very little similarities between neighboring populations.
 
I think Indian Bengalis have been more influenced by North Indians than Bangladeshis cause they didn't split. IF every single state and province in south Asia became independent then I think there would be very little similarities between neighboring populations.

You have no ideas what Indians are like. There is practically no difference between, say the Kayasthas and Brahmins of West Bengal and the Kayasthas and Brahmins of UP, Bihar, MP, Orissa etc. Similarly, when you meet someone from an educated community, unless you know the person's name, you probably won't be able to tell whether he is from Maharashtra, UP or Bengal.

I may be wrong, I would guess that if you met someone from the upper class of Punjab or Sindh you would not be able to tell from where they are unless you heard them speak or knew their name.
 
I grew up in the UK and identify as British. I felt anger when Argentina invaded the Falkland Islands, and I still feel guilt about the return of Hong Kong Island and Kowloon to China in 1997 when they had been ceded to the UK in perpetuity.

My father grew up in Pakistan, and my 1969 birth certificate (wrongly) records my father's place of birth as "Pakistan". But in reality, he was born and brought up in Dacca, in what is now Bangladesh.

Today Pakistan has started a Test series in Chittagong, Bangladesh.

Had Pakistan not fallen apart in 1971, this is what Pakistan's list of largest cities now would look like:

1. Dhaka 21 million
2. Karachi 16 million
3. Lahore 11 million
4. Chittagong 9 million
5. Islamabad / Rawalpindi 5 million

The stadium where Pakistan is playing right now is named after Zahur Ahmed Chowdhury, former Assistant Secretary of the Pakistan Trade Union Federation but later imprisoned for leading the Six Point movement for East Pakistani autonomy.

That in itself is worth reviewing. West Pakistan - modern Pakistan - from 1947 to 1971 had 36% of the population of Pakistan, while East Pakistan was 64% of the population.

But the government was controlled from what is now Pakistan, and lavished 71% of government spending on the 36% of the population which lived in modern Pakistan. In effect, they spent four times as much on themselves as on the majority of the population of Pakistan, which was Bengali.

I consider myself an outsider looking in. I don't identify with Bangladesh or Pakistan.

But the price that modern Pakistan paid for using Bangladesh to subsidise itself was extraordinary. Pakistan managed to lose 64% of its population in 1971.

Jump forward to 2021.

Pakistan - the former West Pakistan - has a population of 225 million sharing an economy of $296 billion, which is just $1,315 per person. Only 59.13% of Pakistanis are literate, and life expectancy is 67.27 years.

Bangladesh - the former East Pakistan - has controlled its fertility and now has a population of 161 million sharing an economy of $409 billion, which is $2,540 per person. 75.6% of Bangladeshis are literate, and life expectancy is 73.00 years.

In effect, when West Pakistan lost East Pakistan it started a long march into being the poorer, less educated, less developed of the two countries.

But of course Pakistan still has a far stronger cricket team!

So my question is this. How do you as Pakistanis feel returning to your lost territory, playing as foreigners in land that was yours? How do you feel about your elders alienating and losing the majority of your compatriots? And how do you feel about the Bangladeshis outperforming Pakistan in pretty much everything except cricket?

I'm not trying to rub it in. These are the same questions that Czechs must ask about Slovakia, and that Serbs must ask about Bosnians.

Good post, but one bit of information is not accurate.

"On July 1, 1898, Britain was granted an additional 99 years of rule over the Hong Kong colony under the Second Convention of Peking."

As per the above, Britain negotiated a "one country two systems" agreement with the Mainland Chinese government and exited in 1997 (99 years after the Second Convention of Peking.

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/britain-agrees-to-return-hong-kong-to-china

Probably also worth noting that till Hasina started her current spell, Bangladesh was doing much better economically than Pakistan. Kudos to her.
 
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Good post, but one bit of information is not accurate.

"On July 1, 1898, Britain was granted an additional 99 years of rule over the Hong Kong colony under the Second Convention of Peking."

As per the above, Britain negotiated a "one country two systems" agreement with the Mainland Chinese government and exited in 1997 (99 years after the Second Convention of Peking.

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/britain-agrees-to-return-hong-kong-to-china

Probably also worth noting that till Hasina started her current spell, Bangladesh was doing much better economically than Pakistan. Kudos to her.

*wasn't doing much better economically than Pakistan
 
I have read somewhere that Pakistan govt is poor but people are rich and vice versa for India & BD.

Number you posted are double that of Pakistan and impressive.

Regarding partition, people only regret bloodshed. Every sane person knows it was inevitable.

Land belongs to no-one, people move all the time, Pashtuns have tribes who were ex-jews, Jatts and Rajputs originated from Rajasthan and today they are in Punjab (inc. Pakistani Punjab & Haryana). Kashmiri Pandits assimilated in plains of India, Khatri's (Kohli's, Kapoor's) uprooted from Peshawar region settled in Delhi, Muhajirs uprooted from UP and settled in Karachi, Afghan Sikhs moved to UK n India.
 
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I have read somewhere that Pakistan govt is poor but people are rich and vice versa for India & BD.

Number you posted are double that of Pakistan and impressive.

Regarding partition, people only regret bloodshed. Every sane person knows it was inevitable.

Land belongs to no-one, people move all the time, Pashtuns have tribes who were ex-jews, Jatts and Rajputs originated from Rajasthan and today they are in Punjab (inc. Pakistani Punjab & Haryana). Kashmiri Pandits assimilated in plains of India, Khatri's (Kohli's, Kapoor's) uprooted from Peshawar region settled in Delhi, Muhajirs uprooted from UP and settled in Karachi, Afghan Sikhs moved to UK n India.

Pashtuns are not "ex-jews" that's a myth, Pashtuns are Indo-European people like everyone else in the Indus valley and highlands, they have no genetic nor linguistic connection to semitic people. Also the Kahtris you mentioned aren't exactly native to Peshawar, they migrated from central Punjab to the city of Peshawar within the last century but the natives of Peshawar are a Hindko-speaking population. Afghan Sikhs were Punjabi settlers in Afghanistan, they weren't natives.

I don't want to further derail this thread but had to correct some misinformation.
 
Don't really give a sh*t, as a British Pakistani, I'm more concerned about my life here. Also, 1971 was way before the posters time on these boards or would be too young to comprehend or remember it so they won't give a damn either.

However, I would say the state of Pakistan today is an absolute disgrace. I've just spent 3 months there and I'm still scratching my head how it's still continuing to survive on a day to day basis.
 
Don't really give a sh*t, as a British Pakistani, I'm more concerned about my life here. Also, 1971 was way before the posters time on these boards or would be too young to comprehend or remember it so they won't give a damn either.

However, I would say the state of Pakistan today is an absolute disgrace. I've just spent 3 months there and I'm still scratching my head how it's still continuing to survive on a day to day basis.

3 months is a long time man, what were you doing there? :afridi
 
3 months is a long time man, what were you doing there? :afridi

During the hot season as well! Just some personal reasons, the plan was to come back earlier but then you have relations badgering to stay on for big Eid as well. So ended up doing both Eid's there before my return.
 
All indications are that the new gen BD supporters are happy to see Pakistan play in Bangladesh.
 
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