How is it that likes of Shan and Haris failed on tour of NZ, but are doing well in domestic cricket?

[MenInG]

There could be an easy answer - namely, the standard of domestic cricket is pretty low

OR

could it be possible that players like Haris/Shan/Abbas have done work to improve themselves?

So in today's Pakistan Cup games:

Haris Sohail 109*
Shan Masood 91
Mohammad Abbas 4 wickets

 

[Firebat]

Haris Sohail scoring an unbeaten century, after he played like he did in NZ just a few weeks ago? A little damning of our domestic cricket.

 

[BreadPakoda]

Maybe they are the best of the lot?

 

[silentkiller187]

mental fragility, in alien conditions i don't know what overcomes our players minds, we are just happy to be in the game rather than trying to take the initiatives.

 

[ChTab]

There could be an easy answer - namely, the standard of domestic cricket is pretty low

OR

could it be possible that players like Haris/Shan/Abbas have done work to improve themselves?

So in today's Pakistan Cup games:

Haris Sohail 109*
Shan Masood 91
Mohammad Abbas 4 wickets

IMO it clearly shows the poor standards of our domestic cricket.

 

[Last Monetarist]

The quality of bowling in Pakistan is at its worst ebb since arguably the sixties. It's no surprise that batsmen that have played international cricket are filling their boots.

We are demonstrably scraping the barrel when it comes to identifying any quality bowlers.

 

[Ahmed216]

These are roads not cricket pitches. Haris Sohail has the worst technique ever for bouncy conditions.

 

[Titan24]

White ball cricket offers different set of challenges altogether.

Haris Sohail is a pretty decent One Day player as he has shown at international level as well.

Regarding Shan, his team was chasing 244 so he was able to play his style of game scoring 91 at SR of 81.

Abbas only took Fakhar from top order and rest were no 7 onwards and when KPK was trying to go for runs. He has always been an intelligent bowler but, not sure with his current pace he can deceive international batsmen in white ball cricket.

So overall I dont think they did anything which is unexpected. Also not to forget international experience also gives any international player an edge in domestic cricket. In domestic cricket they should be able to show improvements on the aspects which they lack at international level but I guess few weeks time is a bit early for that.

 

[naseem]

There could be an easy answer - namely, the standard of domestic cricket is pretty low

OR

could it be possible that players like Haris/Shan/Abbas have done work to improve themselves?

So in today's Pakistan Cup games:

Haris Sohail 109*
Shan Masood 91
Mohammad Abbas 4 wickets

It's ODI nd relatively easier wickets n bowling....Haris Sohail is good in ODIS anyway.....

 

[Greenstorm]

Yes domestic standard is low but there is more to it in the case of these two.

Harris can't handle extra bounce (plays with straight bat and doesn't have a proper cut or pull shot at all) hence his woes in Southern Hemisphere. Shan isn't talented enough to succeed at international level, moreover, he is extra cautious and tends to over analyze while batting in international matches.

 

[shah_1]

I was watching Gohar Fiaz bowl today, he is truly one of the worst medium pacer I have seen. The bowling standards are pretty low and slow & low pitches help as well

 

[Shams123]

Three things are at play here.

There is a big gap between the quality of domestic and int cricket.

Also, he was playing the format in which he is at his best. Had he played in the QA trophy, the comparision would have been more approriate.

He was playing in completely different conditions compared to Nz.

 

[Titan24]

IMO it clearly shows the poor standards of our domestic cricket.

Gareth Batty an English international spinner is 43 year old and was still one of the important players for Surrey in last Natwest T20 blast and for few years now. There are numerous certain examples all around in County cricket and around the world which can easily be used to show to an extent marginalized standard of any domestic competiton. England cricket improved when they started to invest in the right players for right formats. Alastair Cook averaged more than Roy in List A cricket when Roy got his international debut but, Eng management knew what type of cricket they want to play.

My point is domestic cricket is a tool to identify such players and obviously the better the quality the better it is but, even if consider an ideal world where a domestic competition is pretty close to international cricket still a team cant perform at international level without identification of players suitable for that level and for particular formats. A good domestic structure can make it easier but, the step of identification and development cant be skipped irrespective of how top notch the domestic structure is.

 

[Forward Defensive Push]

Home conditions silly!

 

[Cric_lover4487]

A distant uncle of mine played Ranji cricket in 90s. For him it was a job just like my father had a govt. job. He had no motivation to push himself and give his best to get selected to play for India. I think most of domestic cricketers think the same way. Do bare minimum to stay in the team which explains why Harris is scoring runs in domestic but fails in international.

 

[moghul]

Every player has different issue

1-Shaan: no fitness issue, he just doesn't have class and talent to be successful at international level. he is an hardworking player, has had enough coaching, has done everything to be successful and has been given more than enough chances.

2-Harris : had natural talent and class , but he has not been a sportsman, never concentrated on his fitness and lacked hunger . Never been a hardworking player who would go extra miles to improve himself . He is way past his prime already and should not return to Pakistan team even he scores tons of runs in domestic cricket, where everyone can score runs.

3-Abbass: Same as Harris, lacks fitness and desire to work hard on fitness, looks much older than his stated age. Has served well to Pakistan team, but his time has come and gone as an international player.

 

[RyanRyan10]

Form in temporary, class is permanent

Champions have risen again

We will soon witness Shan Masood 3.0 and Haris Sohail 3.0 excelling at the international level.

 

[gazza619]

Form in temporary, class is permanent

Champions have risen again

We will soon witness Shan Masood 3.0 and Haris Sohail 3.0 excelling at the international level.

Dont look forward to that.

 

[Suleiman]

Anyone on this forum has a decent chance to score a 100 in Pak domestics if that is the case.

 

[HappyWarsFan]

This is one day, they failed on tests. Stop mixing up formats

 

[MenInG]

This is one day, they failed on tests. Stop mixing up formats

That's not the point.

Its the ease with which runs are being scored or wickets taken.

 

[Abdullah719]

These are roads not cricket pitches. Haris Sohail has the worst technique ever for bouncy conditions.

Only SBP is a complete road. Bowlers there are averaging ~45, economy of 6.3+. Spinners are averaging 70.

UBL is relatively balanced. Bowlers are averaging 34.xx, economy 5.6. Both pacers and spinners have similar numbers.

NBP is a spin-friendly ground. Overall average 30.xx, economy 5. Spinners are averaging 27, economy 4.5.

Of course, none of these pitches have the bounce that these guys recently faced in NZ. Nor are they playing red-ball cricket, so the aspect of swing is minimized too.

 

[JaDed]

A distant uncle of mine played Ranji cricket in 90s. For him it was a job just like my father had a govt. job. He had no motivation to push himself and give his best to get selected to play for India. I think most of domestic cricketers think the same way. Do bare minimum to stay in the team which explains why Harris is scoring runs in domestic but fails in international.

That absolutely doesn’t explain the good performance of his in domestics as they play International.

 

[Kaddy]

Different conditions
Different format
Different standard of competition
Different opposition

 

[Titan24]

A distant uncle of mine played Ranji cricket in 90s. For him it was a job just like my father had a govt. job. He had no motivation to push himself and give his best to get selected to play for India. I think most of domestic cricketers think the same way. Do bare minimum to stay in the team which explains why Harris is scoring runs in domestic but fails in international.

Currently averages 46 in ODIs with SR of 85 in 42 ODIs, I wont exactly call it a failure in 50 overs cricket. Yes in tests he has underperformed big time relative to expectations but, then he has played just 1 domestic 4 day match in 7 years. It again comes down to selecting players at the wrong time (In this case) or selecting wrong players for a format itself.

 

[TrentDevil]

Simple Answer
Never mix the formats

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Different conditions
Different format
Different standard of competition
Different opposition

It really is as simple as that. Not to mention NZ bowlers are one of the world's best pace attacks in their own conditions. The difference is night and day. I imagine these batsmen could probably score decent runs against the NZ bowlers if they were bowling on Pakistani pitches.

 

[shujaatraza]

Well Asad Shafiq isn’t doing much in domestics too..

 

[Savak]

Harris footwork is badly limited now because of his knees. He can get away with it in Asia but it will always catch up with him in SENA pitches. Maybe the selectors can adopt a horses for courses approach?

 

[UzmanBeast]

First of all, Shan Masood's biggest weakness is the moving ball. If the ball isn't moving, he generally tends to do okay. He's also really poor against deliveries that seam and bounce randomly off the pitch. His off-side game is extremely limited, hence the reason why teams are able to bowl poor deliveries in test cricket and he will leave them.

Haris Sohail, like a few of you mentioned, has a different set of challenges. His stance and bat angle means that if the ball is keeping low and there's no movement off the pitch, he will tend to do well. The moment there's some movement or bounce from the pitch, the angle with which his bat meets the ball will expose a thick outside edge.

Mohammad Abbas took most wickets of tailenders in that innings. His bowling is unlikely to trouble anyone, in some stages, Azhar Ali has looked more threatening with the ball. He can either get his fitness up and bowl quicker (I personally believe that his shoulder injury has had ample time to recover, almost a year and a month.) or he can keep bowling in domestic cricket, because I don't see a need for a bowler on the team who bowls in the 120kph and is a liability on the field as well. Very odd that nobody talks about his injury, we never got some information on it because Abbas didn't usually trundle down into the 120kph, he normally bowled around 132-135kph if I remember correctly.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Shan has always been a good player in List-A. His numbers are evident of that.

Haris on the other hand, is a very good ODI batsman. We saw what he is capable of in the World Cup in crunch games against New Zealand and South Africa. And I do hope that his terrible test form does not get him dropped from the ODI squad. Because that would just be silly.

 

[KingOfPakBreakfast]

Shan has always been a good player in List-A. His numbers are evident of that.

Haris on the other hand, is a very good ODI batsman. We saw what he is capable of in the World Cup in crunch games against New Zealand and South Africa. And I do hope that his terrible test form does not get him dropped from the ODI squad. Because that would just be silly.

A fit and in-form Haris Sohail is comfortably Pakistan's second most best ODI batsmen. However, a fit Haris Sohail is possibly a thing of the the past.

I believe his fitness is mainly a medical impediment, i.e. his surgically repaired knee. This stops him from training with any prolonged intensity, it seems. It shows in his inability to play long innings at the highest level, take quick singles and play with intensity. There *may* also be a lack of effort on his part, to make behavioural changes that will make hime more fit.

I'd like to see Haris actually commit to said behavioural changes, lose weight like Sarfraz did, to lessen the stress on his dodgy knee. This will demonstrate to the selectors about his seriousness in wanting to represent Pakistan and be the best version of himself.

This whole, "selection based on reputation" approach needs to get binned. It's the reason why we persisted with 5 years of Asad Shafiq whilst wasting Fawad Alam's prime years. Once Haris demonstrates better fitness and appreciable work against the short ball, he's welcomed back.

 

[Saj]

It's like a cycle - do well in domestic - play international cricket - fail in international cricket- get dropped - do well in domestic - recall to international cricket

Keep on repeating until retirement.

 

[Flat_Track_Bully]

There use to be a rumour Umar Amin paid for full tosses for a day. Not sure what is happening deep in the system or if the bowlers are very below par.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

A fit and in-form Haris Sohail is comfortably Pakistan's second most best ODI batsmen. However, a fit Haris Sohail is possibly a thing of the the past.

I believe his fitness is mainly a medical impediment, i.e. his surgically repaired knee. This stops him from training with any prolonged intensity, it seems. It shows in his inability to play long innings at the highest level, take quick singles and play with intensity. There *may* also be a lack of effort on his part, to make behavioural changes that will make hime more fit.

I'd like to see Haris actually commit to said behavioural changes, lose weight like Sarfraz did, to lessen the stress on his dodgy knee. This will demonstrate to the selectors about his seriousness in wanting to represent Pakistan and be the best version of himself.

This whole, "selection based on reputation" approach needs to get binned. It's the reason why we persisted with 5 years of Asad Shafiq whilst wasting Fawad Alam's prime years. Once Haris demonstrates better fitness and appreciable work against the short ball, he's welcomed back.

I think even at his current state he is Pakistan's second best ODI batsman. Though undoubtedly he needs to work on his fitness.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

A fit and in-form Haris Sohail is comfortably Pakistan's second most best ODI batsmen. However, a fit Haris Sohail is possibly a thing of the the past.

I believe his fitness is mainly a medical impediment, i.e. his surgically repaired knee. This stops him from training with any prolonged intensity, it seems. It shows in his inability to play long innings at the highest level, take quick singles and play with intensity. There *may* also be a lack of effort on his part, to make behavioural changes that will make hime more fit.

I'd like to see Haris actually commit to said behavioural changes, lose weight like Sarfraz did, to lessen the stress on his dodgy knee. This will demonstrate to the selectors about his seriousness in wanting to represent Pakistan and be the best version of himself.

This whole, "selection based on reputation" approach needs to get binned. It's the reason why we persisted with 5 years of Asad Shafiq whilst wasting Fawad Alam's prime years. Once Haris demonstrates better fitness and appreciable work against the short ball, he's welcomed back.

Could be. But then again he has played long innings from time to time. Like the patient 147 against New Zealand, or the his ODI best of 130 against Australia

 

[Bewal Express]

Less pressure, lower quality of bowlers and better batting tracks.

 

[Bewal Express]

It's like a cycle - do well in domestic - play international cricket - fail in international cricket- get dropped - do well in domestic - recall to international cricket

Keep on repeating until retirement.

That shows poor selection policies. If a player is dropped then he needs to show improvement on weaknesses otherwise he shouldn't be picked.

 

[unemployedgm]

They are not the only ones doing well in domestic cricket.

 

[hitthestump]

I think some people are forgetting that Haris Sohail is an extremely talented batsman.

I'm not surprised that trundling domestic bowling attacks on roads is extremely easy for him.

 

[Barragan]

This is the reason why Younis played 250+ ODI's because Pakistan has failed to distinguish between formats!

 

[ads101]

Because they are probably the best in Pakistan. We just don't have lots of good players right now.

There are other options for middle order, with some stand out performers. But openers and fast bowlers, there's next to nothing. That's why I dunno it was wise moving on from Masood especially. He performed the best out of the openers. No other opener has done enough to really demand a place. While he never deserved a chance when he debuted and played far too many games early on when he didn't perform, he actually had a few good years/games before being dumped after 2 bad series. Our standard isn't that high for openers, maybe Masood deserved one more series in asian conditions before throwing him away entirely.

Sometimes I think it's better to perhaps just let our average players have a longer run without pressure of being dropped. Maybe you'll get the best out of them that way and get at least average performance. Constant chopping and changing with players who aren't good enough (and are arguably even worse than the guys you dropped) will get even less performance.

 

[b.lesner]

This is the reason why Younis played 250+ ODI's because Pakistan has failed to distinguish between formats!

100% agree with you, these lines should be written in golden words for everyone to see.

Haris was second best batsman after Babar in WC and check his test performance is Australia same years he wasn't even entering double figures.

 

[Savak]

This has nothing to do with players being good or not good, our history is filled with players who have had purple patches for 1-2 seasons before they become worked out, mediocre i.e. Nasir Jamshaid, Imran Nazir, Imran Farhat and now Haris Sohail. Very rarely do we produce players like Yousaf, Younis, Inzamam who maintain a certain level of consistency throughout their careers.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

White ball cricket offers different set of challenges altogether.

Haris Sohail is a pretty decent One Day player as he has shown at international level as well.

Regarding Shan, his team was chasing 244 so he was able to play his style of game scoring 91 at SR of 81.

Abbas only took Fakhar from top order and rest were no 7 onwards and when KPK was trying to go for runs. He has always been an intelligent bowler but, not sure with his current pace he can deceive international batsmen in white ball cricket.

So overall I dont think they did anything which is unexpected. Also not to forget international experience also gives any international player an edge in domestic cricket. In domestic cricket they should be able to show improvements on the aspects which they lack at international level but I guess few weeks time is a bit early for that.

Precisely. I don’t think they performed as well as people are making them out to be.

Also short boundaries as far as both batsmen are concerned, while Haris is a pow bounce wicket specialist.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Saw highlights of Haris Sohail's innings. Classy innings full of classical cricketing shots. He was timing the ball so sweetly. Sometimes you almost forget how talented a batsman he is.

 

[Corridor of Uncertainty]

Wrong way to look at domestic cricket in my opinion.

There are some players who can make the leap to international cricket and there are others who can't. Some can make the leap in one format and not the other. Some can only do it at home.

Not an indictment of domestic cricket at all. There are domestic giants in Eng, Ind, Aus who can't make the jump to international.

 

[Madplayer]

I think mentioning Haris in the same breath as Shan is wrong.

Haris actually has decent and consistent performances at the international level. Him failing on the NZ tour doesnt mean he is bad. We all have seen him bat previously and he is indeed talented.

Shan on the other hand has nothing to show at the international level apart from a couple of innings. And everybody knows that he is the most talentless player in the team.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Shan has always been a good player in List-A. His numbers are evident of that.

Haris on the other hand, is a very good ODI batsman. We saw what he is capable of in the World Cup in crunch games against New Zealand and South Africa. And I do hope that his terrible test form does not get him dropped from the ODI squad. Because that would just be silly.

Shan is a player who would be very hard to dismiss on low, dry pitches, but he has no answers when outside of Asia where the ball bounces and seams more.

Haris has shown that he has the natural ability to perform outside of Asia, and not only that, but to attack pace bowlers in seaming conditions.

Domestic cricket is an important grounding for international players, but until pitches in Pakistan are more favourable to pace bowling, the stats will never tell the full story.

 

[RedwoodOriginal]

Shan is a player who would be very hard to dismiss on low, dry pitches, but he has no answers when outside of Asia where the ball bounces and seams more.

Haris has shown that he has the natural ability to perform outside of Asia, and not only that, but to attack pace bowlers in seaming conditions.

Domestic cricket is an important grounding for international players, but until pitches in Pakistan are more favourable to pace bowling, the stats will never tell the full story.

I agree. Shan has many limitations which is why he wasn't able to make the most of his chances in ODIs against Australia. Even though the games were on slow, low UAE pitches.

Haris for me, is a much more important player in ODIs. I think focus should be on getting him to play as many ODI matches as possible. Because without him in there the Pakistani batting becomes too heavily dependent on Babar.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

There could be an easy answer - namely, the standard of domestic cricket is pretty low

OR

could it be possible that players like Haris/Shan/Abbas have done work to improve themselves?

So in today's Pakistan Cup games:

Haris Sohail 109*
Shan Masood 91
Mohammad Abbas 4 wickets

How many Jamiesons do we have in our domestic who are bowling to Harris and Shan?

Put these batsmen against a little accurate and tight bowling and they start acting like clowns.

 

[mon858]

1. bowlers
2. pitch conditions
3. lack of pressure

lastly, i still feel Haris is more suited to white ball game than red ball game anyway. red ball requires higher concentration level and fitness which he seems to lack.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

And now, they will make their way back into the National team based on such performances in domestic and fail again, and the vicious cycle will continue.

We have already seen it repeated in front of us a million times.

So the whole philosophy of “Player XY and Z needs to go back into the domestic and improve before being called back into the national team” is a piece of junk.

Our domestic standard can groom a player only to a very low standard before it reaches its limit. And this standard is way the off from the international quality.

Improving domestic standard is mandatory; however, it’s a very long shot before we start seeing the results.

But for now, selectors must understand that jumping into the domestic scorecards and picking up the top performers should not be THE ONLY criteria.

We need to find at least one or two batsmen whose domestic record may not look very impressive but he must have some good natural talent.
We should fast track them into the List A team and make him play more n more international games and have a good effective batting coach that could help in the transition.

 

[shamaan]

IMO it clearly shows the poor standards of our domestic cricket.

Different format pluss the conditions

 

[ask_analyse_act]

Shan and Haris have better avgs in List-A , it means they are good white ball players

Comparatively their FC avg is not as good as the List-A so they are chosen to represent the national team in the wrong format. Red ball cricket is not their forte.

 

[Hasan123]

Standard of bowling isn't that great but Haris is a good list A player. Think he is worth playing in ODIs.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

For those of you who said Shan was doing well:

Opening partnership, makes 19(44) while Mukhtar Ahmed made 30(32). Mukhtar gets out, Sohaib Maqsood comes in.

Some time later:
Shan Masood: 33(60)
Sohaib Maqsood: 40(33)

Some more time later:
Sohaib Maqsood: 130(76)
Shan Masood: 85(105)

Sohaib gets out. Hussain Talat comes in. Shan makes a century.

When Shan gets out:
Shan Masood: 125(141)
Hussain Talat: 42(30)

 

[Flat_Track_Bully]

Perhaps the new domestic structure has exposed a lot of players and now by natural selection will be replaced and we will see skill levels rise.

 

[MenInG]

So Shan 125 and Fakhar with 92 today....

 

[Saj]

What should be happening is that the guys who flopped in NZ like Shan and Haris should be working with the likes of Yousuf at the NHPC on the issues they had on tour.

Instead they go back to domestic cricket with the same problems and technical issues, score runs against mediocre opposition and think they are back in form again.

Then they come back to international cricket with the same problems and get found out again.

 

[Ertugrul_Bey]

What should be happening is that the guys who flopped in NZ like Shan and Haris should be working with the likes of Yousuf at the NHPC on the issues they had on tour.

Instead they go back to domestic cricket with the same problems and technical issues, score runs against mediocre opposition and think they are back in form again.

Then they come back to international cricket with the same problems and get found out again.

Great point but we also have to factor in the flat and low bounce wickets that are only available in Pakistan. Unless something is done to improve the domestic pitches, we will continue to domestic bowlers being bullied by the likes of Khuram Manzoor and Shan Masood.

 

[Thunderbolt14]

What should be happening is that the guys who flopped in NZ like Shan and Haris should be working with the likes of Yousuf at the NHPC on the issues they had on tour.

Instead they go back to domestic cricket with the same problems and technical issues, score runs against mediocre opposition and think they are back in form again.

Then they come back to international cricket with the same problems and get found out again.

Shan said that he feels his team was 20 runs short. I’m sure he realizes he’s the reason for the loss. Btw Haris Sohail got out for 10 to a 19 year old.