How long ago did Adam come to the Earth? Why did humans stay in the Stone Age for 95% of their time?

[Azmi]

Bible shows that Adam came about 6,000 years ago. But modern science contradicted this claim as it already found the fossils of modern human which are about 200,000 years old.

But what about the Muslims?

There are Islamic traditions too which claim that Adam came about 6000 years ago (just like bible). The earlier Muslim Scholars were of this opinion too. But after scientists found human fossils which are much more older than 6000 years, then modern Muslims denied their earlier claim, and their new claim was this that Adam came to earth several hundred thousands of years ago.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Bible shows that Adam came about 6,000 years ago. But modern science contradicted this claim as it already found the fossils of modern human which are about 200,000 years old.

But what about the Muslims?

There are Islamic traditions too which claim that Adam came about 6000 years ago (just like bible). The earlier Muslim Scholars were of this opinion too. But after scientists found human fossils which are much more older than 6000 years, then modern Muslims denied their earlier claim, and their new claim was this that Adam came to earth several hundred thousands of years ago.

Can you please point where it states in Islam that humans came down 6000 years ago?

What I do know is that Muslims believe More than 120,000 prophets (aside from Muhammad pbuh) came to mankind, even accounting for concurrency in later stages of humans and gap between the arrival of prophets say 50 years.... you can account for humans being older than 6000 years in Islam.

 

[Azmi]

Now let us see the latest claim by Muslims that Adam came 200,000 (or more) years ago while oldest human fossil is 200,000 years old.

But problem is this all the scientific proofs are showing that "Stone AGE" ended only 10,00 years ago, which means Human stayed in stone age at least for 195,000 years (i.e. 95% of time).

http://www.ancient.eu/Stone_Age/

Stone age means that human was only able to make tools from stones and bones.

It is easy for science to explain this phenomenon in name of Evolution.

But how Muslims could explain it?

According to Islam, Adam came with full wisdom. Adam and his sons also started the "cultivation" (as the story is present in Quran where one son of Adam i.e. Qabeel presented the crop as sacrifice, while his brother presented a sheep as sacrifice).

But here comes another problem for Muslims. According to the scientific proofs, human started cultivation only and only 10,000 years ago (i.e. after the stone age). See here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic


This is a big big contradiction than in Quran and Science.

 

[Azmi]

Problem with the Ship of Noah for Muslims:

Gap between Adam and Noah:
10 Centuries i.e. 1000 years (Reference: Authentic Tradition in Sahih Ibn Habban. Saudi Mufti also authenticated this tradition)
Bible confirms the same i.e. 1056 years (link).
Then question arises, how Noah was able to make such a grand Ship with the Stone Age tools?

 

[Eagle_Eye]

What about the 120,000+ messengers sent to mankind?

Adam came full knowledge of cultivation? You are assigning Muslims positions as certainties to prove your point.

If you going to use "full wisdom" as loaded term then in theory why didn't Adam build modern machinery as he had "full knowledge"... make his life easy and not use rudimentary tools.

 

[Azmi]

Can you please point where it states in Islam that humans came down 6000 years ago?

From Haroon Yahyah's Website:

https://www.harun-yahya.net/en/Ahir...g-that-the-life-of-the-world-lasts-7000-years

In his book the great Sunni scholar Suyuti relates trustworthy hadith regarding that the life of the world lasts 7000 years​

1. Ibn Asaqir says: Abu Said Ahmed ibn Muhammad Baghdadi (with the full history of its transmission) narrated. He said from Anas ibn Malik (ra) that The Messenger of Allah (saas) said:
Allah will ascribe the equivalent of good deeds of the seven thousand years of the age of this worldto the one who meets the need of any of his brothers in the faith on the path of Allah as if he spends his days in fasting and his nights in worship.

2. Ibn Abiyy says: Abu Ishak narrated from Ibrahim b. Abdullah Nabt (with the full history of that transmission) narrated. He said from Anas ibn Malik (ra) that The Messenger of Allah (saas) said:
The life span of the world is seven days in the afterlife days. Almighty Allah said, “a day with your Lord is equivalent to a thousand years in the way you count”.

3. Ibn Abi ad-Dunya says that: Ali ibn Said narrated from Hamza ibn Hisham and he from Said ibn Jubair that,
The world is one week of the weeks of the Hereafter.

4. Ibn Abi Hatam narrates from Ibn Abbas in the Commentary that:
The world is one week of the weeks of the Hereafter, it is seven thousand years, of which six thousand have already gone by.

5. There is this account reliably narrated from Ibn Abbas:
He said: The world is seven days. Each day is like a thousand years.And The Messenger of Allah (saas) was sent at the end of that.

6. At-Tabarani in al-Mu'jam al-Kabir says: Ahmad ibn Nadr al-Askari and Jaffar Ibn Muhammad al-Faryabi (with the full history of its transmission) narrated. They said from Daqqaq Ibn Zaid Al-Juhani that,
I had a dream and told it to Messenger of Allah (saas). He spoke the words inside him: O Messenger of Allah, I am with you on a seven-stepped pulpit, and you are on its highest degree.He (saas) said: As for the seven-stepped pulpit, I am on the highest step, the life of the world is seven thousand years.And I shall be in the last thousand.

7. Ibn Abd al-Hamid says in the Commentary; Muhammad ibn Fadl narrates from Hammad bin Zayd, and he from Yahya ibn Atik, and he from Muhammad ibn Sirin and he from one of the People of the Book who became a Muslim that,
Allah created the earth and sky in six days. A day with your Lord is equivalent to a thousand years in the way you count. And the life span of the world is six days, and the Day of Reckoning will fall on the seventh. Six days have gone by, and you are in the seventh.

8. According to a hadith narrated by many scholars, including Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, the great hadith scholar and founder of the Hanbali school, in his ‘Ilal, our Prophet (saas) refers to the beginning of a new calendar, saying, the time that had passed in the world up until him was 5,600 years. Ismail bin Abdul Karim said from Abdussamed and he from Vahb that:
Five thousand six hundred years have passed from this world.
Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Al-Burhan fi Alamat al-Mahdi Akhir az-Zaman, p. 88.

 

[Azmi]

The Tradition of 124,000 Prophets is weak:

What I do know is that Muslims believe More than 120,000 prophets (aside from Muhammad pbuh) came to mankind, even accounting for concurrency in later stages of humans and gap between the arrival of prophets say 50 years.... you can account for humans being older than 6000 years in Islam.

This tradition is weak according to the Saudi Grand Muftis (link).
Not only this tradition is weak, but it also goes against other traditions which are telling different numbers of the prophets.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

And there is nothing in the Quran? Then it's not a set in stone as you are making out...

You are quoting :
A said to B, that he heard the prophet say......... this is not divine words.

Try again.

What my point is that there is no such certainty of point of view till it's unequivocally mentioned in Quran

 

[Azmi]

Adam came full knowledge of cultivation? You are assigning Muslims positions as certainties to prove your point.

No, it is not me who is saying this, but it is the Muslim claim that Adam started the cultivation.

See Quranic Verse 5:27 and it's commentary by Ibn Kathir (link)

 

[Azmi]

And there is nothing in the Quran? Then it's not a set in stone as you are making out...

You are quoting :
A said to B, that he heard the prophet say......... this is not divine words.

Try again.

What my point is that there is no such certainty of point of view till it's unequivocally mentioned in Quran

You say you don't believe in the Ahadith when it comes to the age of the earth.

But at the same time you have yourself presented the Hadith of 124,000 Prophets as your proof.

Are these not the Double Standards?

 

[Eagle_Eye]

No, it is not me who is saying this, but it is the Muslim claim that Adam started the cultivation.

See Quranic Verse 5:27 and it's commentary by Ibn Kathir (link)

Ibn Khatir is just a guy with a point of view.... interestingly he was a student of Ibn Taymiyyah, the favourite shaykh of the wahabis.



What if human cultivation started more than 10k years ago?...... again there is no certainty here.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

You say you don't believe in the Ahadith when it comes to the age of the earth.

But at the same time you have yourself presented the Hadith of 124,000 Prophets as your proof.

Are these not the Double Standards?

I have not presented any Hadith..... you did.

I merely mentioned something of the top of my head about 120k prophets.... which I don't know if it's from Quran or Hadith...


But my point that I am trying to make over and over is that there is no unquestionable position in this unless it's directly mentioned in Quran.... which I don't believe it is.

Whereas you are ascribing "interpretation" as fixed position, when it's just a point of view of different people.

 

[Azmi]

What if human cultivation started more than 10k years ago?...... again there is no certainty here.

Off course there is certainty according to science:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic

Ibn Khatir is just a guy with a point of view.... interestingly he was a student of Ibn Taymiyyah, the favourite shaykh of the wahabis.

What if 100% early Quranic Commentators wrote the same thing about cultivation by Adam?

You say you are not Wahabi. May I ask you what you are then?

Are you a Quranist who reject all Ahadith?

 

[Azmi]

[MENTION=44089]Eagle_Eye[/MENTION],
Please confirm that according to your Religion+Science theory:

(1) Adam came at least 200,000 years ago.

(2) But Adam and his progeny didn't know how to cultivate, and they stayed in Stone Age for the next 195,000 years.
Stone Age means, they were only the hunter gatherers and didn't know how to sew the clothes and didn't know how to cultivate the crops.

(3) What about Noah's big big ship with all the animals?
Do you believe that Noah was able to build such grand ship with the stone tools?

First Navel Ship is only 5,000 years old:

According to Scientific proofs, human started building the first Ships only 5,000 years ago, but that ship too was very small and very primitive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship#History

 

[Eagle_Eye]

[MENTION=44089]Eagle_Eye[/MENTION],
Please confirm that according to your Religion+Science theory:

(1) Adam came at least 200,000 years ago.

(2) But Adam and his progeny didn't know how to cultivate, and they stayed in Stone Age for the next 195,000 years.
Stone Age means, they were only the hunter gatherers and didn't know how to sew the clothes and didn't know how to cultivate the crops.

(3) What about Noah's big big ship with all the animals?
Do you believe that Noah was able to build such grand ship with the stone tools?

First Navel Ship is only 5,000 years old:

According to Scientific proofs, human started building the first Ships only 5,000 years ago, but that ship too was very small and very primitive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship#History

Not a theory.... for a theory, you need mechanism. More appropriate wording would be, thoughts/ questions.

1. The arrival of Adam is open ended. God tells you in Quran that we told you you about some prophets but not others.

2. Prove to me from Quran that he came with full knowledge about agricultural. What is more likely, for someone who is banished from heaven, where he didn't presumably need knowledge of cultivation, is to not have complete knowledge of agriculture. Then why didn't we have complete knowledge about everything from the outset. We would be at zenith from the arrival of Adam and God needn't had told us to go and seek knowledge.

If he came with full knowledge then why rudimentary tools?

3. Is it a certainty that Noah and his clan and the animals n his area were the only living beings on the planet?

What we know about stone age is what we have found so far... and let me emphasise "what we found so far".... what if we find tools in future that date back far longer... can you say for certainty that we will not?

 

[CricFan2012]

More reasons why religion was just a tool, and not required anymore.

 

[Azmi]

1. The arrival of Adam is open ended.

I am not asking you regarding Quran, but according to the science, the earliest human fossils are at least 200,000 years old. Do you believe in Science? At maximum, science could discover more older fossils, but this is not going to change the fact that humans existed on the planet earth for at least 200,000 years.

Do you believe in it?

God tells you in Quran that we told you you about some prophets but not others.

Are you claiming that Adam was not the first human/Prophet? Then Quran is refuting you.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_in_Islam#Adam_in_the_Qur'an

2. Prove to me from Quran that he came with full knowledge about agricultural. What is more likely, for someone who is banished from heaven, where he didn't presumably need knowledge of cultivation, is to not have complete knowledge of agriculture. Then why didn't we have complete knowledge about everything from the outset. We would be at zenith from the arrival of Adam and God needn't had told us to go and seek knowledge.

Your demand of "Only Quran" is illogical here. I have already shown you all the Muslims believed that Adam knew about the agriculture and Qabeel cultivated the crops. While your sect of Quranist (rejecters of the Hadith) is new one and not even 0.01% of Muslim population. This means Quran is such a book of misguidance which misguided 99.99% Muslims while Quran failed to tell them that Hadith is evil and they should not believe in Hadith.

Thus my question for you would be, why then you claim Quran to be book of guidance when it misguided 99.99% of those Muslims who believed in Quran with true heart, but still believed in the Hadith?

 

[Azmi]

3. Is it a certainty that Noah and his clan and the animals n his area were the only living beings on the planet?

Off course the flood was GLOBAL according to Quran and not a single human being left alive except those on the ship.


Read it at Islamqa:

//

https://islamqa.info/en/answers/130...t-flood-at-the-time-of-nooh-peace-be-upon-him

The clear text of the Qur’an indicates that everyone who was on earth drowned in the flood, and no humans or animals were saved except those whom Nooh took with him on board the ark.

Allah, may He be exalted, said (interpretation of the meaning):

“And We saved him and those with him in the laden ship.

Then We drowned the rest (disbelievers) thereafter”

[ash-Shu‘ara’ 26:119-120].

“(So it was) till then there came Our Command and the oven gushed forth (water like fountains from the earth). We said: ‘Embark therein, of each kind two (male and female), and your family, except him against whom the Word has already gone forth, and those who believe. And none believed with him, except a few.’”

[Hood 11:40].

“They denied him, but We delivered him, and those with him in the ship, and We made them generations replacing one after another, while We drowned those who belied Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.). Then see what was the end of those who were warned”

[Yoonus 10:73].

The Qur’anic text also indicates that the earth was only populated after that by the descendants of Nooh (peace be upon him). As for the believers who were saved with him in the ark, none of their descendants were left. So all the people on earth now are descended from Nooh (peace be upon him).

Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And indeed Nooh (Noah) invoked Us, and We are the Best of those who answer (the request).

And We rescued him and his family from the great distress (i.e. drowning),

And, his progeny, them We made the survivors (i.e. Shem, Ham and Japheth).

And left for him (a goodly remembrance) among generations to come in later times.

Salamun (peace) be upon Nooh (Noah) (from Us) among the Alameen (mankind, jinns and all that exists)!"

Verily, thus We reward the Muhsinoon (good-doers)

Verily, he (Nooh (Noah) ) was one of Our believing slaves.

Then We drowned the other (disbelievers and polytheists, etc.)”

[as-Saaffaat 37:75-82].

//

Therefore, question remains how Noah was able to make such a huge Navel Ship with the help of stone tools?

According to Quran, all the animals in pairs were able to board the ship.

Are you able to imagine how much Water and Grass and Meat the animals need if they have to stay in the ship for couple of months?

 

[Azmi]

"Iron Age" and "Bronze Age" and "Ancient Paintings" also refuting Islamic Stories

What we know about stone age is what we have found so far... and let me emphasise "what we found so far".... what if we find tools in future that date back far longer... can you say for certainty that we will not?

Off course, if any evidences come, then one has to accept them.

But you have to understand the "Probability Theory" here. What is the probability of this thing to happen?

Answer is, it is not even 0.001%, while:

(1) Tools from iron and bronze have much better chance to survive for much longer periods than the Bone Tools which existed during stone age.

(2) We have many bone tools which are up to 30,000 years old or even older, but not a single bronze tool which is older than 5,500 years, while there exist not a single IRON TOOL which is older than 3500 years old.

Why?

Here you have to read about the Bronze Age (link), which is only 5,500 years old.

And here you have to read about the Iron Age (link) which is only 3,500 years old.


Therefore, there is 99.99% probability if Iron tools existed earlier than 3,500 years ago, then we would have certainly found them and iron tools could survive much better than bone tools.


Another proof comes in form of "Paintings".

Humans have been making paintings in the caves and we could find painting which dates back up to 60,000 to 70,000 years back.

And till end of stone age, Humans were able to make very beautiful paintings of every thing, along with statues of all things.

But there exist not a single painting or sculptures which shows any bronze tool or iron tool older than 5,500 years. And there is no painting or sculpture which shows any navel ship that is older than 5000 years.

There are hundreds of paintings of small boats, but not a single painting of any ship.

For example, following painting from Egypt is 5,000 years old.

You can see how advanced the Art of that era was, but still no paintings of iron tools or navel ships.


And following painting is 20,000 years old and found in Spain.

Again you could see how advance the art of painting was 20,000 years ago.

And the following painting is 30,000 years old and found in France:

In presence of all these proofs, there is not even a 0.01% probability of finding of any iron tools which are older than 3,500 years old.

 

[tonmoy]

It is futile to argue about the authenticity of the information presented in the religious texts. Trust me, I tried it in the past and it never works.

I am a disbeliever myself and some of the reason for that is already presented in this thread (thanks to azmi). However I have no issue with people believing in fantastical stories and being religious. My problem is when others who do not believe is threatened with death, banishment etc etc. Hope that was not the case

 

[troodon]

Adam and Eve is just another myth that sheep and goat herders perpetrated. All part of religion to control masses.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Adam and Eve is just another myth that sheep and goat herders perpetrated. All part of religion to control masses.

How did sheep and goat herders control masses?

 

[tonmoy]

How did sheep and goat herders control masses?

By claiming that they have direct one on one access with God!!

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

By claiming that they have direct one on one access with God!!

Controlling your family and village isn't controlling the masses. Name me one goat herder that controlled people outside his own locality.

 

[Azmi]

Controlling your family and village isn't controlling the masses. Name me one goat herder that controlled people outside his own locality.

Please don't be so naive. In name of God, many goat herders unite in order to wage war against the other tribes and loot them in name of Mal-e-Ghanimat (war booty).

But this is not the topic here.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Please don't be so naive. In name of God, many goat herders unite in order to wage war against the other tribes and loot them in name of Mal-e-Ghanimat (war booty).

But this is not the topic here.

So they weren't goat herders, they were in fact war captains? This sheep herder controlling the masses wasn't my description, but if you want it to stick then just name one who controlled the masses.

 

[troodon]

So they weren't goat herders, they were in fact war captains? This sheep herder controlling the masses wasn't my description, but if you want it to stick then just name one who controlled the masses.

They are Goat herders through and through. First they convince a few who are willing to blindly follow them. If they get lucky and more fools follow them and they have enough numbers, they can stop being Goat herders and become warlords.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Still waiting for a name of goat herder who became a warlord and controlled the masses. I don't know Hindu mythology that well, are we talking about Shiva or Ganesh? Or kali maybe?

 

[Azmi]

Still waiting for a name of goat herder who became a warlord and controlled the masses. I don't know Hindu mythology that well, are we talking about Shiva or Ganesh? Or kali maybe?

For example, Abraham was the one who was a sheep herder, but later gathered the people around him in name of God and became a warlord.

But why is it important for you to indulge in this debate, while the topic of this thread is Adam and Scientific proofs?

 

[troodon]

Still waiting for a name of goat herder who became a warlord and controlled the masses. I don't know Hindu mythology that well, are we talking about Shiva or Ganesh? Or kali maybe?

Moses.

Shiva, Kali, Ganesh are considered part of Indian Mytholology. They are not Goat herders. They never said follow me or burn in hell.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

For example, Abraham was the one who was a sheep herder, but later gathered the people around him in name of God and became a warlord.

But why is it important for you to indulge in this debate, while the topic of this thread is Adam and Scientific proofs?

I wasn't the one who brought goat herders into the debate, apologies for getting dragged into a diversionary side issue.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Moses.

Shiva, Kali, Ganesh are considered part of Indian Mytholology. They are not Goat herders. They never said follow me or burn in hell.

So your disrespect was aimed at non-Indian prophets, hence the focus on sheep/goat herders. Interesting.

 

[enkidu_]

The Qur'an is not a science book, the likes of Zakir Naik are wrong on this issue as well, and it's a capitulation towards the modernistic framework to feel obligated to witness some scientific miracles there. In fact the Bible scholars themselves fell to that after the Enlightenment (even if Origen/St Augustine/etc were already trying to offer interpretations to please audiences at ease with Greek thought, but it was more speculative philosophy than purely materialistic science). It's not without reason that there's no real spatio temporalization of the prophetic figures in the Qur'an, their lives are meant to be perpetually relevant reminders about faith and worship, not theorems and scientific discoveries.

 

[troodon]

So your disrespect was aimed at non-Indian prophets, hence the focus on sheep/goat herders. Interesting.

Anyone who claims to be God or Spoken to God or Angels etc..

India never had any prophets. I do not believe in Indian Mythology. I am a skeptic when it comes to Religion and claims of God men.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Bible shows that Adam came about 6,000 years ago. But modern science contradicted this claim as it already found the fossils of modern human which are about 200,000 years old.

But what about the Muslims?

There are Islamic traditions too which claim that Adam came about 6000 years ago (just like bible). The earlier Muslim Scholars were of this opinion too. But after scientists found human fossils which are much more older than 6000 years, then modern Muslims denied their earlier claim, and their new claim was this that Adam came to earth several hundred thousands of years ago.

Another atheist on a crusade. You and your friends have signed up for this sole reason?

There is no date for Adam and the flood in Noah's time was local. There have been much smarter people than you who can't debate this, not sure why you reading from hates sites will be any different? If you dont like cricket ,find a new hobby because this one isn't for you.

 

[troodon]

The Qur'an is not a science book, the likes of Zakir Naik are wrong on this issue as well, and it's a capitulation towards the modernistic framework to feel obligated to witness some scientific miracles there. In fact the Bible scholars themselves fell to that after the Enlightenment (even if Origen/St Augustine/etc were already trying to offer interpretations to please audiences at ease with Greek thought, but it was more speculative philosophy than purely materialistic science). It's not without reason that there's no real spatio temporalization of the prophetic figures in the Qur'an, their lives are meant to be perpetually relevant reminders about faith and worship, not theorems and scientific discoveries.

Is it? Religious people affirm their faith by claiming the books contain Scientific info which is only being discovered now. Its a way for many to reaffirm their faith.

This is exactly the issue. Why worry about faith and worship when there is no proof of any super natural? Isn't praying a waste of time when there is no proof for the super natural existence?

 

[troodon]

Another atheist on a crusade. You and your friends have signed up for this sole reason?

There is no date for Adam and the flood in Noah's time was local. There have been much smarter people than you who can't debate this, not sure why you reading from hates sites will be any different? If you dont like cricket ,find a new hobby because this one isn't for you.

When there is a claim, it is only natural for soem to challenge it. You don't bring any proof to the table, then anyone can claim anything. Even a 5 year old.

 

[KingKhanWC]

When there is a claim, it is only natural for soem to challenge it. You don't bring any proof to the table, then anyone can claim anything. Even a 5 year old.

Nobody is asking you to accept anything. If someone wants to debate theology then at least get right what the particular religion believes, the OP has no clue but is parading as a great thinker lol.

 

[enkidu_]

Is it? Religious people affirm their faith by claiming the books contain Scientific info which is only being discovered now. Its a way for many to reaffirm their faith.

This is exactly the issue. Why worry about faith and worship when there is no proof of any super natural? Isn't praying a waste of time when there is no proof for the super natural existence?

These peoples have fallen to "spiritual materialism" as Tibetan scholar Chogyam Trungpa used to say, all the prophets sent by God were of humble backgrounds (no PhDs in physics) and their followers throughout the centuries have believed without "scientific miracles". It's modernism which puts them to absorbs such thoughts.

When you look proofs for the supernatural it means you don't have an idea of what the supernatural is, and no praying isn't a waste of time if you have faith like breathing isn't either if you have life.

 

[troodon]

These peoples have fallen to "spiritual materialism" as Tibetan scholar Chogyam Trungpa used to say, all the prophets sent by God were of humble backgrounds (no PhDs in physics) and their followers throughout the centuries have believed without "scientific miracles". It's modernism which puts them to absorbs such thoughts.

When you look proofs for the supernatural it means you don't have an idea of what the supernatural is, and no praying isn't a waste of time if you have faith like breathing isn't either if you have life.

More like I don't have any proof, So i resort to some verbiage which can confuse the topic.

All the prophets were humble until they belonged to humble background. Once they had enough money and man power, it was sparta!!!

 

[slipcatch]

Nationalism and capitalism has killed more people than any religion conflicts.

No one is getting mass murdered for not believing in religion.

But for monetary gain and to sustain a economic system, thousands and thousands have been killed directly and indirectly.

So, if someone wants to believe in particular religion then let them, why is every Atheist on a mission to make a world religion free, why can't they practice what they believe in their own place of worship, home, or in private?

Eliminating religion from the world will not end mass killing.

 

[enkidu_]

More like I don't have any proof, So i resort to some verbiage which can confuse the topic.

All the prophets were humble until they belonged to humble background. Once they had enough money and man power, it was sparta!!!

You atheists/agnostics have no verbiage because you have nothing to say, and you have nothing to say because you're unable to assume a definite position, let alone a belief system. It's metaphysical escapism all around.

 

[Eagle_Eye]

1. Nowhere did it mentions 'world' in the text with regard to Noah. Could mean that Noah and his tribe and ofcourse you need two of a kind of you want make use of animals.....

2. 200 hundred years ago, if you were working out probabilities of finding ancient tools, what would it be? Its laughable to be actually mentioning probabilities and that too of 0.001... was that just an attempt of making your argument so plausible?

My point in this thread is that you started with ascribing a certain position to Muslims so that you can start your rant.

 

[ahmedzee]

Another thread that is trying to undermine Islam

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

Bible shows that Adam came about 6,000 years ago. But modern science contradicted this claim as it already found the fossils of modern human which are about 200,000 years old.

But what about the Muslims?

There are Islamic traditions too which claim that Adam came about 6000 years ago (just like bible). The earlier Muslim Scholars were of this opinion too. But after scientists found human fossils which are much more older than 6000 years, then modern Muslims denied their earlier claim, and their new claim was this that Adam came to earth several hundred thousands of years ago.

The main problem with this assumption is that it makes out Adam as the first human. Take that out of the equation and you’ll make better sense of the whole thing.

 

[Azmi]

If someone wants to debate theology then at least get right what the particular religion believes, the OP has no clue but is parading as a great thinker lol.

I am sorry to see your empty blame game.

What proofs I provided above, they were not from my own pockets, but all these Ahadith are found in your Islamic Books which were compiled by your grand Muhaditheen, and your earlier Ulama wrote all that and it is Harun Yahya who is quoting them.

Please blame your Muhaditheen (hadith compilers), all of your Quran Mufasireen (commentators), your Ulama of Ahadith for not knowing about their religion.

Again your empty blame games will take you to no where. If you were really truthful, then you would have come up with the "proofs".

 

[tonmoy]

1. Nowhere did it mentions 'world' in the text with regard to Noah. Could mean that Noah and his tribe and ofcourse you need two of a kind of you want make use of animals.....

2. 200 hundred years ago, if you were working out probabilities of finding ancient tools, what would it be? Its laughable to be actually mentioning probabilities and that too of 0.001... was that just an attempt of making your argument so plausible?

My point in this thread is that you started with ascribing a certain position to Muslims so that you can start your rant.

Treat this information however you want. Here are some of the facts

1/ There is no geological evidence of the flood as described in Noah story!!
2/ Flood was a result of God realizing that every person in the world became corrupt and evil. Including babies!! Although God created all of them!!
3/ Noah was only man remaining who was righteous so God asked him to build the ark (450 feet long). Also note, he was 600 years old.
4/ The fact that Noah was 600 years old and based on the age of his sons (Japeth Ham Shem) at the time, Noah must have concieved at the age of 500 + .
5/ God wanted Noah to put 2 of each animal in the ark..
6/ So Noah apparently managed to gather 2 of each animal from all over the world !!! across all continents and put them in his 450 feet arc.
7/ The animals were friendly and became vegetarian inside the ark so no damage done!! Although not sure how he managed all the different dietary needs for all the species to fit into the arc.
8/ Once everything drowned and arc rested in mountains or ararat, Noah sent dove to find land!! God somehow was not in communication terms with Noah anymore.
9/ Now that God managed to do a successful reboot, it was time for Noah and his family to perform incest and repopulate the earth!!...

Does the above sound logical to anyone???

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

Treat this information however you want. Here are some of the facts

1/ There is no geological evidence of the flood as described in Noah story!!
2/ Flood was a result of God realizing that every person in the world became corrupt and evil. Including babies!! Although God created all of them!!
3/ Noah was only man remaining who was righteous so God asked him to build the ark (450 feet long). Also note, he was 600 years old.
4/ The fact that Noah was 600 years old and based on the age of his sons (Japeth Ham Shem) at the time, Noah must have concieved at the age of 500 + .
5/ God wanted Noah to put 2 of each animal in the ark..
6/ So Noah apparently managed to gather 2 of each animal from all over the world !!! across all continents and put them in his 450 feet arc.
7/ The animals were friendly and became vegetarian inside the ark so no damage done!! Although not sure how he managed all the different dietary needs for all the species to fit into the arc.
8/ Once everything drowned and arc rested in mountains or ararat, Noah sent dove to find land!! God somehow was not in communication terms with Noah anymore.
9/ Now that God managed to do a successful reboot, it was time for Noah and his family to perform incest and repopulate the earth!!...

Does the above sound logical to anyone???

Think ark is a metaphor for a community. By gathering animals and humans it provides a larger massage Of inclusivity that is pure of decedanc and corruption. Doves are probably used symbolically as the messengers of peace. But all of it is just speculative.

 

[Azmi]

Nationalism and capitalism has killed more people than any religion conflicts.

No one is getting mass murdered for not believing in religion.

But for monetary gain and to sustain a economic system, thousands and thousands have been killed directly and indirectly.

So, if someone wants to believe in particular religion then let them, why is every Atheist on a mission to make a world religion free, why can't they practice what they believe in their own place of worship, home, or in private?

Eliminating religion from the world will not end mass killing.

These are only double standards when you demand full rights to preach Islam, but get every type of problems when we criticize the religion.

Please do criticize nationalism and capitalism, and we are with you. It is the only way to understand things and to reform them or to eradicate them.

But why do you want to end up any criticism of the religion by making such lame excuses?

If your religion is truthful, then it will not only sustain all the criticism, but it will also flourish. So, why then to ban this criticism?

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Think ark is a metaphor for a community. By gathering animals and humans it provides a larger massage Of inclusivity that is pure of decedanc and corruption. Doves are probably used symbolically as the messengers of peace. But all of it is just speculative.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh_flood_myth

All the stories are based on the above flood myth, please read and use critical thinking.

 

[KingKhanWC]

I am sorry to see your empty blame game.

What proofs I provided above, they were not from my own pockets, but all these Ahadith are found in your Islamic Books which were compiled by your grand Muhaditheen, and your earlier Ulama wrote all that and it is Harun Yahya who is quoting them.

Please blame your Muhaditheen (hadith compilers), all of your Quran Mufasireen (commentators), your Ulama of Ahadith for not knowing about their religion.

Again your empty blame games will take you to no where. If you were really truthful, then you would have come up with the "proofs".

You start your op by saying Islam also believes Adam was around 6000 years ago like Christianity, when it does not. You failed at the first attempt without any reference. Hadiths are weak and strong, you dont have the education to understand each hadith in relation to this. Stick to the Quran first, lets see if you can make strides with the main text in the religion.

 

[DeadBall]

Treat this information however you want. Here are some of the facts

1/ There is no geological evidence of the flood as described in Noah story!!
2/ Flood was a result of God realizing that every person in the world became corrupt and evil. Including babies!! Although God created all of them!!
3/ Noah was only man remaining who was righteous so God asked him to build the ark (450 feet long). Also note, he was 600 years old.
4/ The fact that Noah was 600 years old and based on the age of his sons (Japeth Ham Shem) at the time, Noah must have concieved at the age of 500 + .
5/ God wanted Noah to put 2 of each animal in the ark..
6/ So Noah apparently managed to gather 2 of each animal from all over the world !!! across all continents and put them in his 450 feet arc.
7/ The animals were friendly and became vegetarian inside the ark so no damage done!! Although not sure how he managed all the different dietary needs for all the species to fit into the arc.
8/ Once everything drowned and arc rested in mountains or ararat, Noah sent dove to find land!! God somehow was not in communication terms with Noah anymore.
9/ Now that God managed to do a successful reboot, it was time for Noah and his family to perform incest and repopulate the earth!!...

Does the above sound logical to anyone???

What always bothered me was those conniving evil fish and water based creatures got away scott free.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

What always bothered me was those conniving evil fish and water based creatures got away scott free.

They had a whale of a time.

 

[Azmi]

Was Noah's Flood Local or Global?

1. Nowhere did it mentions 'world' in the text with regard to Noah. Could mean that Noah and his tribe and ofcourse you need two of a kind of you want make use of animals.....

I already presented the proofs from the Islam question answer website that Islamic Ulama till this century believed Noah's flood to be Universal in light of Quran.

And these are only the modern Muslims who started denying it being universal. But they could not run from their own Quran, which is clearly telling it was Universal, and there not even a slight hint of it being local.

​

Let us first examine the Quranic witness to the universality of Noah's flood:

"At length, behold! There came Our Command, and the fountains of the earth gushed forth! We said: `Embark therein, of each two, male and female, and your family- except those against whom the Word has already gone forth,- and the believers.' But only a few believed with him." S. 11:40
"Then the word went forth: `O earth! Swallow up thy water, and O sky! withhold (thy rain)! And the water abated, and the matter was ended. The Ark rested on Mount Judi, and the word went forth: `Away with those who do wrong!'" S. 11:44

These verses state that the earth gushed forth with water, implying that the flood was universal. It does not say that only the land where Noah lived gushed forth with flood waters.


"So We inspired him (with this message): `Construct the Ark within Our sight and under Our guidance: then when comes Our command, and the oven gushes forth, take thou on board pairs of every species, male and female, and thy family- except those of whom the Word has already gone forth: and address Me not in favour of the wrong-doers: for they shall be drowned (in the Flood)." S. 23:27

One might ask that if the flood was merely local, why the need to take two kinds of every species seeing that a local flood would not wipe out the entire animal life globally? This again implicitly affirms the universality of Noah's flood.

"So We opened the gates of heaven, with water pouring forth. And we caused the earth to gush forth with springs. So the waters met (and rose) to the extent decreed. But We bore him on an (Ark) made of broad planks and caulked with palm-fibre: She floats under Our eyes (and care): a recompense to one who had been rejected (with scorn)!" S. 54:11-14

Again, heaven pouring forth and the earth gushing springs seem to imply a universal event.

"And Noah said: `O my Lord! Leave not of the Unbelievers, a single one on earth! For if Thou dost leave (any of them), they will but mislead Thy devotees, and they will breed none but wicked ungrateful ones.'" S. 71:26-27

Noah's plea does not fit in well with a local flood since his request was that no evildoer be left on the earth, not just locally within close proximity of his land. A local flood would entail the fact that not only did evildoers survive but that they also possibly had offspring who were "wicked ungrateful ones," something Noah prayed against.

 

[DeadBall]

They had a whale of a time.

Better scale it down. This is neither the time nor the plaice for this.

 

[Azmi]

You start your op by saying Islam also believes Adam was around 6000 years ago like Christianity, when it does not. You failed at the first attempt without any reference. Hadiths are weak and strong, you dont have the education to understand each hadith in relation to this. Stick to the Quran first, lets see if you can make strides with the main text in the religion.

You must have patience to read the further posts for the proofs, or even ask for them if you don't see them. Your excuse of first attempt makes no logic.

And you have to tell it to your earlier Ulama that these Ahadith are not Sahih but week (if you have the ability to judge them better than your own Ulama). And if you have problems, then please tell it to your Ulama to stick to the Quran only and throw away the Ahadith. I have absolutely nothing to do with the proofs. They all are from your own Ulama who have much more knowledge than you.

That is why it is so ugly to see your empty blame game.

 

[Azmi]

2. 200 hundred years ago, if you were working out probabilities of finding ancient tools, what would it be? Its laughable to be actually mentioning probabilities and that too of 0.001... was that just an attempt of making your argument so plausible?

Please tell us what we have to do with 200 years ago?

We have much more knowledge to judge the authenticity of any religious claims today than 200 years ago. Therefore, if today science is proving the religious stories wrong, why then we have to deny science today while it was unable to proof anything against the religious stories 200 years ago?

Your logic is making absolutely no logic.

 

[KingKhanWC]

You must have patience to read the further posts for the proofs, or even ask for them if you don't see them. Your excuse of first attempt makes no logic.

And you have to tell it to your earlier Ulama that these Ahadith are not Sahih but week (if you have the ability to judge them better than your own Ulama). And if you have problems, then please tell it to your Ulama to stick to the Quran only and throw away the Ahadith. I have absolutely nothing to do with the proofs. They all are from your own Ulama who have much more knowledge than you.

That is why it is so ugly to see your empty blame game.

I have no issues with the religion, you do. You made a claim which is not accepted by the majority of scholars which you didn't realise. This is why I am suggesting you first stick to the most authentic text the Quran and see where it gets you but reading hate sites and copying them is all you are capable of.

Do you now accept your OP suggesting Muslims also believe Adam was around 6000 years ago is not true?

 

[slipcatch]

These are only double standards when you demand full rights to preach Islam, but get every type of problems when we criticize the religion.

You are criticizing Islam (only) and no one has banned you from this site.

Please do criticize nationalism and capitalism, and we are with you. It is the only way to understand things and to reform them or to eradicate them.

But why do you want to end up any criticism of the religion by making such lame excuses?

Lame excuse? It isn't, usually the first point is raised by promoter of religion (it is a religion because it is a belief that their is no GOD, Atheist can't prove that their isn't one) Atheist, "how the world would be better place and how the killing would stop if there was no religion and how Human kind will excel in science, Islam has never stop anyone from excelling in science", which is false and has little to do with modern day mass murders.
If your religion is truthful, then it will not only sustain all the criticism, but it will also flourish. So, why then to ban this criticism?

Islam is flourishing and growing at a pace.

Atheist wants to eliminate religion and want the world without any religion.

When they get the majority they can change the rule of the land until then majority rules. Majority of that land belief in their respective religion and in those same countries majority believe that no one should talk ill about their belief.

 

[Azmi]

Atheist wants to eliminate religion and want the world without any religion.

And religious people want to impose their religion, and in many cases not even through preaching, but even by using the sword.

When they get the majority they can change the rule of the land until then majority rules. Majority of that land belief in their respective religion and in those same countries majority believe that no one should talk ill about their belief.

Please mind it that there exist no such rule of majority when it comes to the Basic Human Rights.
Thus it is your basic human right to preach your religion, even if you are in minority in the non-religious Western societies.
While it is our basic human right to criticize the religion, even if we are in any muslim majority country.

 

[tonmoy]

Atheist wants to eliminate religion and want the world without any religion.

When they get the majority they can change the rule of the land until then majority rules. Majority of that land belief in their respective religion and in those same countries majority believe that no one should talk ill about their belief.

Majority once believed that the sun revolved around earth. It was heresy to say otherwise.
Majority can believe whatever they want but facts remain.
Also majority amongst the majority does not know or understand everything written in the text. Ignorance does not equate to being in an agreement .

 

[Azmi]

I have no issues with the religion, you do. You made a claim which is not accepted by the majority of scholars which you didn't realise.

Again an empt claim, without any proof.
Bring your proof that majority of your earlier Ulama denied these Ahadith.

Do you now accept your OP suggesting Muslims also believe Adam was around 6000 years ago is not true?

Read the OP post again with open eyes. It is clear that earlier Muslim Ulama believed in it, while the modern Muslims have to refute it while science already found human fossils which are much older than 6000 years.

I am done with your empty blame game, and not going to answer you any more.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Again an empt claim, without any proof.
Bring your proof that majority of your earlier Ulama denied these Ahadith.




Read the OP post again with open eyes. It is clear that earlier Muslim Ulama believed in it, while the modern Muslims have to refute it while science already found human fossils which are much older than 6000 years.

I am done with your empty blame game, and not going to answer you any more.

Aww im heartbroken. You want me to bring proof but where is your proof early scholars believed this? It doesnt matter if fossils were found as there is no date for Adam in Islam.

 

[slipcatch]

Majority once believed that the sun revolved around earth. It was heresy to say otherwise.
Majority can believe whatever they want but facts remain.
Also majority amongst the majority does not know or understand everything written in the text. Ignorance does not equate to being in an agreement .

That is completely different discussion.


Atheist trying to promote their religion and the respective majority trying to promote their religion. SO far, majority is winning.

Atheist can't prove that there is no GOD, nothing has been factually proven, has it?

 

[Eagle_Eye]

Please tell us what we have to do with 200 years ago?

We have much more knowledge to judge the authenticity of any religious claims today than 200 years ago. Therefore, if today science is proving the religious stories wrong, why then we have to deny science today while it was unable to proof anything against the religious stories 200 years ago?

Your logic is making absolutely no logic.

200 years ago or even 100 years ago, the age of man would be what? What 100 years ago we should have closed our minds and not look for anything....none of this is science at all.

What you can say is that right now we only have evidence for tools to be of ex years old.

You are desperate to set the premise for Muslims to prove a point. When challenged, Using wiki and right wing sites are not going to get you looked upon favourably.

 

[Azmi]

Ahmadi Muslims also believe that Adam came only 6000 years ago and whole age of the earth is only 7000 years

The main problem with this assumption is that it makes out Adam as the first human. Take that out of the equation and you’ll make better sense of the whole thing.

[MENTION=145569]Angrez Pakistani[/MENTION], are you an Ahmadi Muslim?

Anyhow, Ahmadi Muslims also don't have any escape door. Even if they keep on claiming that Adam was not the first human, while their own books are proving without any doubt that the total age of the earth is not more than 7,000 years.

So, what would you do with these Sahih (authentic Ahadith) of 7,000 years when according to science this earth is about 4.8 million years old?

 

[troodon]

You atheists/agnostics have no verbiage because you have nothing to say, and you have nothing to say because you're unable to assume a definite position, let alone a belief system. It's metaphysical escapism all around.

There is no confusion when it comes to proof.

Beating around the bush and twisting topics is what people with weak stance do.

All I am asking is for a simple proof and instead of proving, we get to hear a lot of mumbo jumbo stuff and never answer the question straight.

 

[Azmi]

Aww im heartbroken. You want me to bring proof but where is your proof early scholars believed this?

I already posted the link to Harun Yahya website, who posted Authentic Ahadith which were collected by the ultimate Hadith Master Imam Jalaluluddin Syuti, who was a Hafidh of Hadith. What else proof do you need?

Here is Imam Jarir Tabari, the another grand Alim, who is again confirming in light of Sahih Ahadith that earth's age is only 7,000 years:




Imam Ghazali also wrote the same about earth being 7,000 years in his book Ahya-e-Uloom (see English Translation, page 183).

It doesnt matter if fossils were found as there is no date for Adam in Islam.

This is the changed claim of Muslims.
And this also becomes refutable due to the Islamic stories associated to Adam and Noah's Arch, as has been shown above in light of Stone Age, Date of Agriculture, Ice Age (which all are 10,000 years ago). And also due to the reason that first naval ship was built only 5,000 years ago, which was very small, and consisted of only primitive technology, and no way able to contain pair of every animal, along with grass or meat as their food for the next many months.

 

[slipcatch]

And religious people want to impose their religion, and in many cases not even through preaching, but even by using the sword.



Please mind it that there exist no such rule of majority when it comes to the Basic Human Rights.
Thus it is your basic human right to preach your religion, even if you are in minority in the non-religious Western societies.
While it is our basic human right to criticize the religion, even if we are in any muslim majority country.

You are trying to promote your religion (belief), Atheism that GOD does not exist and trying to disprove other religion, particularly, Islam. And I do not think you can disprove a belief.

You used bad example which you can't back it up.

Another thing that you are trying to argue that you should be able to criticize. Which, I agree, you should. But that has nothing to do with belief, it has to do with the law of the land.

 

[Azmi]

You are trying to promote your religion (belief), Atheism that GOD does not exist and trying to disprove other religion, particularly, Islam. And I do not think you can disprove a belief.

I need not to disprove anything. Science is in itself enough to disprove the religious stories. No religion could stand against the science if it is going against the science.

Another thing that you are trying to argue that you should be able to criticize. Which, I agree, you should. But that has nothing to do with belief, it has to do with the law of the land.

So you agree with me that the law of the land is wrong when it prohibits the criticism of the religion?

Please remember this too that this wrong law of the land is basically based upon the religions law, which ultimately makes religion wrong for introducing this law.

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh_flood_myth

All the stories are based on the above flood myth, please read and use critical thinking.

Don’t flaunt that critical thinking ** on to me. Myths are there to aggrandise the events that are seemingly important but aren’t grand enough to capture the imagination of the ppl at the time.

 

[DeadBall]

You are trying to promote your religion (belief), Atheism that GOD does not exist and trying to disprove other religion, particularly, Islam. And I do not think you can disprove a belief.

You keep on repeating that but Atheism is not a religion or belief and is in fact the exact opposite of it.

atheism
/ˈeɪθɪɪz(ə)m/Submit
noun
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

In fact I think most people arguing against organized religions here are anti theists, i,e the lack of belief in religion (the established ones, anyway) all together.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

You are trying to promote your religion (belief), Atheism that GOD does not exist and trying to disprove other religion,

Yeah me and sorry, start again, Deadball and I attend regular meetings and seminars and go door to door, we set up stalls with tons of our literature.

particularly, Islam.

Not really, talking about the logic of God is one thing, discussing anything substantial about the Prophet is a completely different matter.

And I do not think you can disprove a belief.

Like the belief in fairies? That has same provable evidence that other faiths have. Can't disprove it. Must be true.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Don’t flaunt that critical thinking ** on to me. Myths are there to aggrandise the events that are seemingly important but aren’t grand enough to capture the imagination of the ppl at the time.

I literally have no idea what that means. Tis late, and gotta get past episode 7 of Haunting of Hill House...

 

[Angrez Pakistani]

I literally have no idea what that means. Tis late, and gotta get past episode 7 of Haunting of Hill House...

Would you recommend it?

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Don’t flaunt that critical thinking ** on to me. Myths are there to aggrandise the events that are seemingly important but aren’t grand enough to capture the imagination of the ppl at the time.

Lol.

Now I understand it. It was a whoosh before that hardly happens to me, guess we are all human.

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Would you recommend it?

Bit afraid to give my opinion, could start a flame war, whatever that is, I got enough fires to deal with. Suffice to say it leads to episode 6, pioneering stuff, makes up for humdrum, well executed but nonetheless, standard haunted house, mental women seeing things, I will get to the end and then I can ascertain if I would whole heartedly recommend. It's less infuriating than Money Heist, that's not faint praise.

 

[slipcatch]

I need not to disprove anything. Science is in itself enough to disprove the religious stories. No religion could stand against the science if it is going against the science.

Can Science disprove or prove that God exit?



So you agree with me that the law of the land is wrong when it prohibits the criticism of the religion?

Please remember this too that this wrong law of the land is basically based upon the religions law, which ultimately makes religion wrong for introducing this law.

Law of the land does but Islam does not, non-muslims on regular basis criticizing Islam.

You have to believe in belief.

I agree that those who do not believe should be able to criticize but when they start making up facts, like you did in your OP then you should be called out.

 

[slipcatch]

Yeah me and sorry, start again, Deadball and I attend regular meetings and seminars and go door to door, we set up stalls with tons of our literature.

I am sure there are those who do, join, maybe you'll get better at defending and promoting your belief on others.

Not really, talking about the logic of God is one thing, discussing anything substantial about the Prophet is a completely different matter.

Many people have and many will continue, countless video exist on internet where people have discussed Prophets'

Like the belief in fairies? That has same provable evidence that other faiths have. Can't disprove it. Must be true.

No! it is a belief, either you do or you don't, and it is a personal choice. Don't jump the gun, read slowly.

Regards

 

[Devilsadvokat]

Bit afraid to give my opinion, could start a flame war, whatever that is, I got enough fires to deal with. Suffice to say it leads to episode 6, pioneering stuff, makes up for humdrum, well executed but nonetheless, standard haunted house, mental women seeing things, I will get to the end and then I can ascertain if I would whole heartedly recommend. It's less infuriating than Money Heist, that's not faint praise.

Haunting of Hill House does have a lady who occupies this generations version of Angeline Jolie. Tis a highlight.