How safe is it for women to be on the streets in UK?

[MenInG]

Human remains have been found in the search for missing Sarah Everard, Met Commissioner Cressida Dick has said.

Ms Everard, 33, was last seen on 3 March in Clapham, south London, on her way home from a friend's house.

Detectives have not yet been able to confirm the identity of the remains, which were discovered in woodland near Ashford, Kent.

It comes after a serving Met Police officer was arrested on suspicion of Ms Everard's kidnap and murder.

The officer, who has not been named by police, was arrested in Kent and is also being questioned about a separate allegation of indecent exposure.

Ms Everard, a marketing executive, was last seen in doorbell video footage walking alone down a main road near Clapham at 21:30 GMT, with police saying it was unclear if she reached her home in Brixton.

In a televised statement, Dame Cressida confirmed officers searching an area near Ashford had "found, very sadly, what appears to be human remains".

The Met Police commissioner said specialist officers had updated Ms Everard's family on the investigation.

Dame Cressida continued: "Sarah's disappearance in these awful and wicked circumstances is every family's worst nightmare.

"I know Londoners will want to know that it is thankfully incredibly rare for a woman to be abducted from our streets.

"But I completely understand that despite this, women in London and the wider public - particularly those in the area where Sarah went missing - will be worried and may well be feeling scared."

Dame Cressida said the arrest of a serving Met Police officer on suspicion of murder "has sent waves of shock and anger through the public and through the whole of the Met".

"I speak on behalf of all my colleagues in the Met when I say we are utterly appalled at this dreadful news," she added. "Our job is to patrol the streets and to protect people."

Hundreds of officers have been drafted in to help with the investigation as searches continue in south London and Kent.

The arrested officer was responsible for uniformed patrolling of diplomatic premises - including Downing Street and the Palace of Westminster, as well as foreign embassies in London.

He was off duty at the time of Ms Everard's disappearance.

A woman in her 30s was also arrested in Kent on Tuesday evening on suspicion of assisting an offender.

Prime Minister Boris Johnson said his thoughts were with Ms Everard and her friends and family.

The former Durham University student, who is originally from York, was last seen wearing a green rain jacket, navy blue trousers with a white diamond pattern, and turquoise and orange trainers.

She is also thought to have been wearing green earphones and a white beanie hat.

The case has been referred to the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) because it involves a police officer.

A spokesman said it had been decided that the Met Police would investigate any potential conduct issues linked to the kidnap and murder allegations itself.

The IOPC is currently assessing whether any further measures should be taken in relation to the actions of police after Ms Everard was reported missing.

The BBC's home affairs correspondent Daniel Sandford said that if it did turn out that a Met Police officer had been involved then there would be a "very strong sense of betrayal from the very top of [the organisation] down to the rank and file".

He said the force would also feel the people of London "above all" will have been betrayed "because they feel a deep sense of pride that their job is to protect the people of London and now here is one of their own officers suspected of doing the exact opposite in the worst possible way".

Disappearance timeline:

3 March: Sarah Everard vanishes after leaving a friend's house on Leathwaite Road, Clapham, about 21:00 GMT

5 March: Met Police are "increasingly concerned" for Ms Everard and make an appeal on Twitter

6 March: Ms Everard's family say her disappearance is "totally out of character" as officers search Clapham Common's ponds

7 March: Footage taken from a doorbell camera shows Ms Everard walking alone along the A205 Poynder Road towards Tulse Hill at 21:30. Police say it is unclear whether or not she reached her house in Brixton

8 March: More than 120 calls are made from the public on the case and more than 750 homes are visited as part of the investigation

9 March: A serving officer is arrested in Kent along with a woman who is held on suspicion of assisting an offender

10 March: Met Police Assistant Commissioner Nick Ephgrave describes the arrest as "shocking and deeply disturbing". Extensive searches are carried out in parts of Kent. Later in the evening Commissioner Dame Cressida Dick said human remains have been found in a woodland in Kent


https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-56355019

 

[MenInG]

The police officer arrested on suspicion of the murder of Sarah Everard has been treated in hospital for a head injury sustained while in custody.

The man has since been returned to a police station, the Metropolitan Police said.

 

[MenInG]

Prime Minister Boris Johnson has tweeted: "I am shocked and deeply saddened by the developments in the Sarah Everard investigation. Like the whole country my thoughts are with her family and friends.

"We must work fast to find all the answers to this horrifying crime."

 

[MenInG]

Organisers of a vigil for Sarah Everard are launching a legal challenge after the Metropolitan Police said that the gathering would be unlawful.

The Reclaim These Streets group were planning to meet at 6pm on Saturday at Clapham Common - not far from where the 33-year-old went missing on Wednesday 3 March.

Although the police initially gave a "positive response" to the planned vigil, the women behind the event claim the Met later reversed their position.

 

[MenInG]

A body found by police in woodland on Wednesday has been confirmed as that of Sarah Everard.

The 33-year-old marketing executive disappeared as she walked home in south London last week.

A serving Met officer remains in custody having been held on suspicion of Ms Everard's kidnap and murder.

Speaking outside New Scotland Yard, Assistant Commissioner Nick Ephgrave confirmed the latest development in the investigation.

He said: "As you know, on Wednesday evening detectives investigating the disappearance of Sarah Everard discovered a body secreted in woodland in Kent.

"The body has now been recovered and formal identification procedure has now been undertaken."

BBC

 

[the Great Khan]

I never would never let my daughter out on her own after a certain time.

 

[Tubs]

The UK is relatively safe, probably one of the safest in the world (on average, obviously, as certain areas are far worse than others). Doesn't mean what happened wasn't a terrible thing, but the UK is certainly one of the safest places for women.

 

[The Viper]

There are some absolutely messed up creeps out there. Women shouldn't go out alone at night because you never know what could happen. This very sad incident further reinforces this.

 

[sa88]

UK is one of the safest societies for women. Sadly what happened to this lady can happen in any country and can happen to anyone. But the probability of it occurring in the UK is next to negligible.

 

[dildilpak]

There are some absolutely messed up creeps out there. Women shouldn't go out alone at night because you never know what could happen. This very sad incident further reinforces this.

Its a sad story, but you cant use it to justify cloistering women at home because of one stray incident. Men get mugged/murdered too, should we then not step out in the night too?

 

[KingKhanWC]

Its a sad story, but you cant use it to justify cloistering women at home because of one stray incident. Men get mugged/murdered too, should we then not step out in the night too?

Women are more likey to be attacked, not just to mug or murder but to sexually assault etc. But yes it doesnt warrant suggesting they shouldnt go out alone at night. Although a lot of women dont go out alone.

The issue in this case is a police officer being the alleged culprit. Sad case, RIP to the lady.

 

[TSA321]

Women are more likey to be attacked,

Wrong, men are significantly more likely to be attacked, mugged or killed on the street.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Wrong, men are significantly more likely to be attacked, mugged or killed on the street.

An alone woman in the middle of the night is more likey to be attacked than an alone man at night. Reason, there are more motives to attack women such as sexual assualt, rape etc. Mugging and killing arent the only motives for attacks.

 

[TSA321]

An alone woman in the middle of the night is more likey to be attacked than an alone man at night. .

Well if you go by recorded crime statistics that isn't true.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Well if you go by recorded crime statistics that isn't true.

Those mean little as most women do not report assualts. Acc to a Yougov poll 4 out of 10 have been touched, groped.

 

[Robert]

Women are more likey to be attacked, not just to mug or murder but to sexually assault etc. But yes it doesnt warrant suggesting they shouldnt go out alone at night. Although a lot of women dont go out alone.

The issue in this case is a police officer being the alleged culprit. Sad case, RIP to the lady.

An Officer attached to the diplomatic guarding service, yet. Quite alarming. Women will assume that not even Policemen are trustworthy, and that will make the good Officers’ jobs that much harder.

 

[MenInG]

A serving Metropolitan Police officer has been charged with kidnapping and murdering Sarah Everard, who went missing in south London last week.

Wayne Couzens will appear before Westminster Magistrates' Court later this morning.

Yesterday, the 48-year-old was taken to hospital for a second time in 48 hours for treatment on a fresh head injury sustained in custody.

A Met Police spokesman said: "He was being monitored by officers and received immediate first aid. He was discharged the same day and returned to custody."

Couzens was previously treated in hospital for a separate head wound on Thursday, which was sustained in custody when he was alone in his cell.

Meanwhile, a woman in her 30s who was previously arrested on suspicion of assisting an offender has been released on bail.

She is due to return to a police station in mid-April.

In a statement announcing charges against , the Met revealed his previous employment history in the force in the "interests of clarity".

Couzens joined the Met Police in September 2018, when he worked with a response team that covered Bromley.

He was later posted to the Parliamentary and Diplomatic Protection Command in February 2020.

Here, Couzens is said to have been mostly sent on uniformed patrol duties of diplomatic premises, including a range of embassies.

SKY

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

There are two different UKs for women. One during daylight when it is a perfectly safe place, at least in relatively urban areas. Then there is the UK at night, where it would be less than safe, especially in areas where there is not much traffic or public visibility.

I am not comparing to any other country, that is just my view on the UK, although I suspect it is similar in most other places.

 

[Robert]

There are two different UKs for women. One during daylight when it is a perfectly safe place, at least in relatively urban areas.

So I am on the bus in Brixton, standing on the stairs ready to get off for the Tube. Sunny afternoon. Two steps above me is a teenage girl. She looks scared, shrinking away from a youngish man a few steps up. She steps down toward me. He follows. She takes my arm, like she knows me. Briefly I wonder if she is a distraction for a pickpocket. But nobody else is close and I can feel both her hands on my arm. I get off the bus with the girl holding my arm. The man walks off. You OK Miss? - I ask. She nods and carries on her way.

 

[CricketCartoons]

So I am on the bus in Brixton, standing on the stairs ready to get off for the Tube. Sunny afternoon. Two steps above me is a teenage girl. She looks scared, shrinking away from a youngish man a few steps up. She steps down toward me. He follows. She takes my arm, like she knows me. Briefly I wonder if she is a distraction for a pickpocket. But nobody else is close and I can feel both her hands on my arm. I get off the bus with the girl holding my arm. The man walks off. You OK Miss? - I ask. She nods and carries on her way.

Always knew you are the sort of the person females feel protected to have around.

 

[The Viper]

Its a sad story, but you cant use it to justify cloistering women at home because of one stray incident. Men get mugged/murdered too, should we then not step out in the night too?

I don’t think women should stay home, rather if they want to go out they should be with at least one friend. Going by car or even taxi would be fine during late hours, but walking for a decent distance in the dark is risky. It’s true that men could get mugged as well, but the chances are lower. Naturally, women are the main targets for these predators as the physical difference is huge. I am not saying men can’t get abducted also, but it’s less likely that they would be targeted due to their physical build. And I mean late hours say past 10 pm.

 

[pillionrider]

Yesterday, the 48-year-old was taken to hospital for a second time in 48 hours for treatment on a fresh head injury sustained in custody.

A Met Police spokesman said: "He was being monitored by officers and received immediate first aid. He was discharged the same day and returned to custody."

Couzens was previously treated in hospital for a separate head wound on Thursday, which was sustained in custody when he was alone in his cell.

Is there some kind of entity in his cell that's giving him these head wounds?

In Indian movies, the police have traditionally been portrayed as a man's worst friend and a woman's worst nightmare.

 

[OMB]

Sarah Everard: Policeman Wayne Couzens charged with kidnap and murder to appear in court today

Wayne Couzens has been charged with kidnapping and murdering Sarah Everard who went missing in south London last week. Wayne Couzens will appear before Westminster Magistrates' Court later this morning.
Yesterday, the 48-year-old was taken to hospital for a second time in 48 hours for treatment on a fresh head injury sustained in custody.
A Met Police spokesman said: "He was being monitored by officers and received immediate first aid. He was discharged the same day and returned to custody."

Couzens was previously treated in hospital for a separate head wound on Thursday, which was sustained in custody when he was alone in his cell. A vigil planned to take place on Clapham Common on Saturday for Ms Everard has been cancelled by the organisers following discussions with police.

Meanwhile, a woman in her 30s who was previously arrested on suspicion of assisting an offender has been released on bail. She is due to return to a police station in mid-April.
In a statement announcing charges against , the Met revealed his previous employment history in the force in the "interests of clarity".

Couzens joined the Met Police in September 2018, when he worked with a response team that covered Bromley. He was later posted to the Parliamentary and Diplomatic Protection Command in February 2020. Here, Couzens is said to have been mostly sent on uniformed patrol duties of diplomatic premises, including a range of embassies.

Speaking outside New Scotland Yard on Friday, Metropolitan Police Assistant Commissioner Nick Ephgrave paid tribute to Ms Everard's family and friends for their "fortitude and forbearance" over the last few days of the investigation.
He added: "Our thoughts remain with them as this matter progresses. The investigation continues of course supported by hundreds of officers from across the Met as well as colleagues in Kent Police. I would also like to thank at this stage all members of the public who have come forward with information or support for the investigation and would use this opportunity to encourage anyone who thinks they might have useful information to give to get in contact with us."

Ms Everard, a marketing executive originally from York, vanished last Wednesday as she walked from the nearby Clapham Junction area to her home in Brixton. She had been at a friend's house when she left the property in Leathwaite Road around 9pm.

The last known sighting of the 33-year-old was captured on a doorbell camera just after 9.30pm showing her walking alone toward Tulse Hill. Her body was found in woodland near Ashford, Kent, a week later.

https://news.sky.com/story/police-officer-wayne-couzens-charged-with-murdering-and-kidnapping-sarah-everard-12241796

 

[OMB]

Police officer remanded in custody over death of Sarah Everard

The serving Metropolitan Police officer accused of murdering Sarah Everard has been remanded in custody after his first court appearance.

Police constable Wayne Couzens, 48, is charged with kidnapping and killing the 33-year-old marketing executive, who went missing while walking home from a friend’s flat in south London on March 3.

Her body was found hidden in an area of woodland in Ashford, Kent, on Wednesday.

Couzens appeared at Westminster Magistrates’ Court on Saturday morning for his first appearance following his arrest on Tuesday.

Couzens arrived at the central London court at 10am in a large blue police van, stepping into the dock around 10:30.

In the dock he wore a grey tracksuit and appeared to have a red wound on the top of his forehead.

Couzens spoke only to confirm his name and personal details, sitting between two plain clothes officers in the dock.

The court heard the officer is accused of kidnapping Ms Everard in the Poynders Road area of Clapham.

Ms Everard‘s body, found inside a builder’s bag in Kent, was identified through the use of dental records, the court also heard.

Chief Magistrate Paul Goldspring remanded Couzens in custody to appear at the Old Bailey on March 16.

The Metropolitan Police previously said Couzens joined the force in 2018, most recently serving in the Parliamentary and Diplomatic Protection Command, an armed unit responsible for guarding the Parliamentary estate and embassies in London.

His main job was uniformed patrol of diplomatic buildings, and Scotland Yard said he was not on duty at the time of Ms Everard’s disappearance.

The force said that Couzens, of Deal, in Kent, was taken to hospital for a second time in 48 hours on Friday for treatment to another head injury sustained in custody, before he was discharged and returned to a police station.

He was previously treated in hospital for a separate head wound on Thursday, also sustained in custody when he was alone in his cell.

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/uk-news/2021/03/13/police-officer-remanded-in-custody-over-death-of-sarah-everard/

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

So I am on the bus in Brixton, standing on the stairs ready to get off for the Tube. Sunny afternoon. Two steps above me is a teenage girl. She looks scared, shrinking away from a youngish man a few steps up. She steps down toward me. He follows. She takes my arm, like she knows me. Briefly I wonder if she is a distraction for a pickpocket. But nobody else is close and I can feel both her hands on my arm. I get off the bus with the girl holding my arm. The man walks off. You OK Miss? - I ask. She nods and carries on her way.

Brixton used to have a very bad reputation, there were the riots there during the 80's. Never been there, but it was a mainly black area and the black community were not well regarded at the time. Hopefully that's changed and Brixton is a lot better now, but there are going to be no go areas in rundown parts of Britain, and you can imagine women wouldn't feel safe in those places. Neither would men for that matter.

 

[Suleiman]

So I am on the bus in Brixton, standing on the stairs ready to get off for the Tube. Sunny afternoon. Two steps above me is a teenage girl. She looks scared, shrinking away from a youngish man a few steps up. She steps down toward me. He follows. She takes my arm, like she knows me. Briefly I wonder if she is a distraction for a pickpocket. But nobody else is close and I can feel both her hands on my arm. I get off the bus with the girl holding my arm. The man walks off. You OK Miss? - I ask. She nods and carries on her way.

Good on you for holding your ground. Much respect.

 

[Saj]

Sarah Everard's body was identified by her dental records after it was found in a large bag similar to ones used by builders to transport heavy loads, a court has heard.

.The details came at the initial hearing for a Metropolitan Police officer accused of the kidnap and murder of the 33-year-old marketing executive.

Wayne Couzens appeared in person before Westminster Magistrates' Court on Saturday following his arrest on Tuesday.

The 48-year-old was remanded in custody and the case will next be heard at the Old Bailey on 16 March.

He wore a grey tracksuit and stood as the charges were read.

Couzens is charged with kidnapping and killing Ms Everard, who went missing while walking from the nearby Clapham Junction area to her home in Brixton.

Ms Everard, originally from York, had left her friend's house in Leathwaite Road around 9pm on 3 March.

The last known sighting of Ms Everard was captured on a doorbell camera just after 9.30pm showing her walking alone toward Tulse Hill.

Her body was found in woodland near Ashford, Kent, a week later.

Yesterday, Couzens was taken to hospital for the second time in 48 hours for treatment on a fresh head injury sustained in custody.

He was previously treated in hospital for a separate head wound on Thursday, also sustained in custody.

In an earlier statement announcing the charges against Couzens, the Met revealed his previous employment history in the force in the "interests of clarity".

He joined the force in September 2018, when he worked with a response team that covered Bromley.

He was later posted to the Parliamentary and Diplomatic Protection Command in February 2020.

Here, Couzens is said to have been mostly sent on uniformed patrol duties of diplomatic premises, including a range of embassies.

Speaking outside New Scotland Yard on Friday, Metropolitan Police Assistant Commissioner Nick Ephgrave paid tribute to Ms Everard's family and friends for their "fortitude and forbearance through what can only have been the most intensely difficult few days".

He added: "Our thoughts remain with them as this matter progresses."

Ms Everard's death has prompted an outpouring of grief from the public, with many women and girls sharing stories online of their own traumatic experiences.

A vigil planned by Reclaim These Streets in Clapham on Saturday evening has been cancelled following discussions with police.

Organisers instead encouraged people to shine a light on their doorstep at 9.30pm.

https://news.sky.com/story/sarah-ev...court-charged-with-kidnap-and-murder-12244460

 

[Robert]

Met Police criticised for action at Clapham Common vigil for murdered woman

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56389824

The Metropolitan Police's handling of a vigil in south London to mourn Sarah Everard has been widely criticised across the political spectrum.

Liberal Democrat leader Sir Ed Davey called for Commissioner Dame Cressida Dick to resign over the "utterly disgraceful" scenes and Home Secretary Priti Patel has asked for a report.

Officers were seen handcuffing and leading women away from the event.
Police said four arrests were made at the vigil to "protect people's safety".
Several hundred people gathered on Clapham Common on Saturday evening to pay tribute to the 33-year-old - whose death has prompted a public debate over women's safety - despite Covid restrictions.

The official vigil, which was being organised by Reclaim These Streets, had been called off earlier in the day due to police warnings over coronavirus restrictions.

The group said they were "deeply saddened and angered" by the police's actions and criticised officers for "physically manhandling women at a vigil against male violence".

"It is their responsibility to protect public order, public health and the right to protest - they failed tonight on all accounts," the group added in a statement.

The Met said it was the "only responsible thing" for them to do to ensure public safety.
The force added that a review will be carried out to see if "lessons can be learned".

One video posted online showed officers removing women who were stood in the bandstand.

Cries of "shame on you" and "let them go" could be heard from onlookers. The video showed them being put in a police van and driven away.

Sir Ed Davey said in a tweet that Dame Cressida had "lost the confidence of the millions of women in London".
Ms Patel called footage on social media "upsetting" and said she had asked the Metropolitan Police for a "full report on what happened".
Sadiq Khan, the Labour Mayor of London, said the scenes were "unacceptable" and that he was "urgently seeking an explanation" from the commissioner.
"The police have a responsibility to enforce Covid laws but from images I've seen it's clear the response was at times neither appropriate nor proportionate," he tweeted.
Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer said the scenes were "deeply disturbing".
"Women came together to mourn Sarah Everard - they should have been able to do so peacefully.
"I share their anger and upset at how this has been handled. This was not the way to police this protest," Sir Keir tweeted.
Conservative MP Caroline Nokes, who chairs the Commons Women and Equalities Select Committee, said she was "truly shocked" at the scenes on Clapham Common.
"In this country we police by consent - not by trampling the tributes to a woman who was murdered and dragging other women to the ground. Badly misjudged by #metpolice," Ms Nokes tweeted.

Met Assistant Commissioner Helen Ball said hundreds of people were "packed tightly together", posing a risk of transmitting Covid-19.
"Police must act for people's safety, this is the only responsible thing to do," she said in a statement.
"We absolutely did not want to be in a position where enforcement action was necessary. But we were placed in this position because of the over-riding need to protect people's safety."
A tweet posted by Sisters Uncut alleged "male police officers waited for the sun to set before they started grabbing and manhandling women in the crowd".

Earlier, Reclaim These Streets said they had cancelled the official vigil because the Met Police had failed to "constructively engage" with plans to hold it in a Covid-secure way.

The group asked people not to gather at Clapham Common because it could put them "legally at risk".
Instead, it had urged mourners to light candles and shine other lights on their doorsteps at 21:30 GMT - to coincide with the time Ms Everard was last seen on 3 March.

Earlier, Mr Johnson tweeted that he would "be thinking of her family and friends", adding: "I will do everything I can to make sure the streets are safe."

Scotland's First Minister Nicola Sturgeon tweeted a picture of a candle in her home, which she said was "for Sarah", while Wales's First Minister Mark Drakeford encouraged people to "ignite a fire for change".
The clashes occurred on Saturday evening, but people had visited the bandstand to lay flowers and pay their respects throughout the day.
The Duchess of Cambridge made a private visit on Saturday afternoon, and was seen pausing at the bandstand.
It is understood that she wanted to pay her respects to Ms Everard and her family.
A candle is placed on the doorstep of 10 Downing Street
Earlier on Saturday, Met Police officer Wayne Couzens, 48, appeared at Westminster Magistrates' Court charged with Ms Everard's kidnap and murder.
The 33-year-old disappeared when walking home to Brixton from Clapham in south London on 3 March.
Her body was found in an area of woodland in Ashford, Kent, Westminster Magistrates Court heard.
Mr Couzens was remanded in custody to appear again at the Old Bailey on 16 March.

 

[MenInG]

The Metropolitan Police is facing fierce criticism for its handling of a vigil in memory of Sarah Everard - with Commissioner Dame Cressida Dick urged to resign.

Scuffles broke out at the gathering on Clapham Common as officers told attendees to go home - and at one stage, policemen were seen grabbing hold of several women and leading them away in handcuffs.

SKY

 

[James]

I never would never let my daughter out on her own after a certain time.

Agree. Only with a parent, a trusted partner, or with a group of good friends. Never alone after dark.

 

[Robert]

Good on you for holding your ground. Much respect.

Thanks. If I am walking on a deserted street with a woman ahead of me I will cross the road, to show I am looking out for her. If alone with a woman on a train carriage I will sit at the far end.

 

[ElRaja]

Thanks. If I am walking on a deserted street with a woman ahead of me I will cross the road, to show I am looking out for her. If alone with a woman on a train carriage I will sit at the far end.

whilst i understand the sentiment isn't this a bit extreme?

imo just avoiding held eye contact, and respecting someones personal space, man or woman, is good enough.

from what ive heard, short of unwanted physical contact the number 1 thing that freaks girls out is men who stare.

 

[Technics 1210]

Women have been raped and murdered in broad daylight too, and in London of all places as an example.

A killer/rapist doesn't care about the time of day or the location.

 

[shaykh]

The language being used is so unnecessarily incendiary ...

Some women literally tweeting about they can identify with a woman who was abducted and killed by having a moan about how a man was rude to them at a club and that needs to stop ...

As someone who has been attacked at night...I find it ludicrous how a tragic death of a women has both been co-opted and weaponised...

"I do have to think of all men as attackers," said Nimco Ali, the government's adviser on violence against women and girls.

Speaking to LBC's Nick Ferrari, she added that the onus should be shifted to men to be aware of the effects their behaviour may have on a young woman out walking along.

She said: "I can't sit there and try to assess which guy is the good guy and which one is not - it's for you guys to change your behaviour and the way you act in public spaces."

Another MP has suggested curfews against men...so men should be indoors by 6pm...

Imagine replacing the word men with a race or faith group...yet it appears absolutely fine to attack and stereotype a whole gender...

At the protests one of the organisers:

And the protest :

"We thought it would be nice to set something up to channel some of that anger and hurt and group collective grief as well.

"It's been a really difficult, heavy week. Violence against women is an epidemic, but sometimes it does take something like this, that hits a bit closer to home, to really bring it to the fore and certainly in people's minds and people's consciousness.

"There is a real sense of 'enough is enough'. We can't carry on like this."

So meaningless soundbites like ‘men need to change’ and ‘enough is enough’...

I’d love to see an example of how social change has been enacted through such means...

And let’s be frank...chat about an epidemic?...and epidemic of what?...women murdered?...well 24 have been murdered in London over the last year ...and most weren’t on the streets but in their homes by people they knew ...or is it just co-opting someone’s tragedy to become part of a collective...

The dialogue though is very incendiary ...you have the right wing defining people by their ethnicity and faith...and now we have a new batch of warriors defining people by their gender...nice way of continuing to strip people of their individuality ...

And the fact is in regards to the protests...they were told not to gather...just another set of selfish people who have a complete disregard for spreading covid ...

 

[shaykh]

If we are talking murder...

There have been 24 murders of women in the past year...majority have taken place at the woman’s home by someone she knows ...for example one women was murdered by her son...one woman was murdered with her husband and child...

Thus it comes from a very privileged place when English people talk about ‘femicide’ and ‘epidemic’ as was mentioned in Clapham yesterday ...

13% of women are murdered by strangers compared to 33% for men...over 80% of those murdered are men...which further makes the femicide comments look ridiculous...

This isn’t to say women don’t feel safe...nor should feel safe at night...I’ve been attacked at night...and I also am cautious and have to exercise caution at night...cos when it comes to life or death men are a bigger threat to me than they are to women ...

What women do have to deal with though is sexual assault or harassment and that isn’t time dependent...

An estimated 144,000 women were victims of rape or sexual assault last year...
55,000 were actually reported...
And 1,439 were convicted of rape ...rape is notoriously difficult to prosecute for obvious reasons...
It’s worth noting that again the idea of there being rapists around every street corner is a bit far fetched...for the most part according to surveys over 90% of those attacked know their attacker...

23% are by a family member...
24% by a boyfriend/partner/husband/ex
44% by someone else known to them ...

What is commonplace on the streets is things like being inappropriately touched, catcalled or approach...
Harassment numbers are against estimates based on surveys...
4 in 10 for example have said they have been groped ...

Does this make the streets unsafe...the reality essentially isn’t that important...what is important is the perception...ie if one feels unsafe...then it doesn’t really matter if somewhere is safe overall ...

I had a gun pulled on me once in an area that was statistically safe when I lived in Colombia ...and had nothing happened to me in some of the shadier areas...but ones own experiences colour ones perceptions ...

So if 40% of women have been groped, followed or catcalled in their life they won’t feel comfortable ...

I’m not sure what the incendiary rhetoric though by protesters and MP’s is designed to achieve though ...addressing men as a collective when the majority of whom don’t mistreat women...and asking us collectively to fix up and answer for the crimes of others ...an MP saying I see all men as predators doesn’t progress the issue at all...

 

[Robert]

whilst i understand the sentiment isn't this a bit extreme?

imo just avoiding held eye contact, and respecting someones personal space, man or woman, is good enough.

from what ive heard, short of unwanted physical contact the number 1 thing that freaks girls out is men who stare.

Just sitting a couple of metres away with no eye contact can scare a woman if she is by herself.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

I think the UK is probably one of the safest countries in the world for women. This incident, while of course unfortunate, has been hijacked by feminists pushing an agenda and attempting to link everything to toxic masculinity.

 

[shaykh]

I think the UK is probably one of the safest countries in the world for women. This incident, while of course unfortunate, has been hijacked by feminists pushing an agenda and attempting to link everything to toxic masculinity.

Suggestions of a curfew in Wales where men would have to be indoors by 6pm...

An MP can openly say she views all men as predators ...and it’s because of men being as they are that she views them through that lens...and along with that she gets praised for her courage to speak out ...

Swap men with any other group and it would be deemed discriminatory ...

Imagine saying ‘I see all Muslims as terrorists’ ...or ‘I see all black people as criminals.’...and then being praised for your courage to speak out openly and honestly ...

And to what end?...how does the vitriol and incendiary rhetoric actually fix the ‘problem’...

I find it interesting as well that apparently it is only men’s responsibility to fix other men...apparently women have absolutely no roles in this...yet there are plenty of women who also say ‘what was she wearing’, ‘why was she out late at night.’...

Supposedly only backward views exist amongst males...while women are all enlightened...

Does make you think though..criminality statistics are largely skewed when it comes to single parent households...I guess these mothers have no responsibility in the values their children are brought up with...of course not...let’s shift 100% of the blame onto the absentee father instead...

Absolutely nonsensical narrative...and quite a shameful exploitation and weaponisation of a tragedy...

 

[ElRaja]

Just sitting a couple of metres away with no eye contact can scare a woman if she is by herself.

logically there is no diff to you sitting 2 or 3 metres away or across the carriage, if a woman thinks you might attack her she will feel threatened regardless. how can u assume each women's tolerance for what constitutes a safe distance? the only consistent logical answer would be to not even sit in the same carriage.

i dont mean to sound ranty, but it sounds like trading common sense for an illusion of greater security here. yes women are more vulnerable than men, but they aren't children for whom special allowances must be made in regular social interactions imo.

if the onus of accounting for how women feel in the presence of men is made primarily the mans responsibility you will end up in a completely gender segregated society because the risk of offense or threat caused would in no way justify any gain form a standard social interaction.

I think the UK is probably one of the safest countries in the world for women. This incident, while of course unfortunate, has been hijacked by feminists pushing an agenda and attempting to link everything to toxic masculinity.

the term is so loaded, i mean who even defines what it constitutes, i dont even know what its meant to mean.

 

[Last Monetarist]

https://news.sky.com/story/london-mayor-not-satisfied-by-met-chiefs-explanation-for-completely-unacceptable-policing-at-vigil-12246023

The mayor of London has said the police handling of the vigil for Sarah Everard on Clapham Common was "unacceptable" - and that he is "not satisfied" with the explanation he has received from the head of the Metropolitan Police.

The scenes of officers grabbing several women at the Saturday evening gathering and leading them away in handcuffs were widely criticised, including by politicians of all sides.

A Home Office spokesperson also said that Home Secretary Priti Patel had read the police report and "feels there are still questions to be answered".

However, a Home Office source told Sky News that Ms Patel still has "full confidence" in Metropolitan Police Commissioner Dame Cressida Dick, despite calls for her resignation.

PA news agency reported that Prime Minister Boris Johnson also spoke to the commissioner on Sunday but there were no details on the content of their conversation.

The vigil had been planned by Reclaim These Streets, but the group cancelled the event after what they said were repeated attempts to negotiate with Scotland Yard about ways it could go ahead safely under coronavirus restrictions.

What had been a peaceful and sombre gathering during the afternoon turned sour and four arrests were made, with calls from London Mayor Sadiq Khan and Ms Patel for Dame Cressida to provide an explanation.

But, as hundreds of people gathered in protest outside Scotland Yard, Mr Khan said on Sunday: "I asked the commissioner and deputy commissioner to come into City Hall today to give me an explanation of yesterday's events and the days leading up to them. I am not satisfied with the explanation they have provided.

"I will now be asking Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary to conduct a full independent investigation of events yesterday evening and in previous days. I am also asking the Independent Office for Police Conduct to investigate the actions of police officers yesterday evening.

"It is vital that these events are not allowed to undermine the powerful calls since Sarah's murder for meaningful action to finally stop men inflicting violence on women. It was clear before yesterday that there isn't adequate trust and confidence from women and girls in the police and criminal justice system more widely. Further steps must now be taken to address this."

Mr Khan said the scenes arising from the policing of the vigil were "completely unacceptable", adding: "I received assurances from the Metropolitan Police last week that the vigil would be policed sensitively. In my view, this was not the case."

The home secretary has also asked Sir Thomas Winsor, Chief Inspector of Constabulary, to conduct a "lessons learned" review into the policing of the vigil.

Meanwhile, the woman who was pictured being pinned to the ground by police in Clapham on Saturday night has said she is determined to hold another gathering on Monday.

Speaking to LBC on Sunday afternoon, Patsy Stevenson said she did not feel she had done anything wrong and was planning to attend a gathering in Parliament Square on Monday.

She said she wanted to push for change in the way women are treated, adding: "That's the bare minimum we should feel the freedom to do, and I think it's appalling that it's gone on for this long and I think everyone needs to stand up to it and keep the ball rolling and get something actually changed.

"The main point is trying to get something changed within the system to educate people on how we can make women feel safe and just free to do what they want to do and live a normal life because there are so many things that we are unable to do without fear."

Ms Stevenson said she had been fined £200 after her arrest on Saturday but was unsure why, adding: "I can't speak for everyone that was there but I didn't throw anything... the recollection of the night is a bit blurry, as you can understand, but I don't recollect anyone pushing people unless it was in retaliation.

"They (the police) said something along the lines of 'for breaching COVID rules' but they didn't make it entirely clear to me from the start.

"The weird thing was, I wasn't actually surprised, which doesn't say much really about the police force."

 

[shaykh]

logically there is no diff to you sitting 2 or 3 metres away or across the carriage, if a woman thinks you might attack her she will feel threatened regardless. how can u assume each women's tolerance for what constitutes a safe distance? the only consistent logical answer would be to not even sit in the same carriage.

i dont mean to sound ranty, but it sounds like trading common sense for an illusion of greater security here. yes women are more vulnerable than men, but they aren't children for whom special allowances must be made in regular social interactions imo.

if the onus of accounting for how women feel in the presence of men is made primarily the mans responsibility you will end up in a completely gender segregated society because the risk of offense or threat caused would in no way justify any gain form a standard social interaction.



the term is so loaded, i mean who even defines what it constitutes, i dont even know what its meant to mean.

Well feelings trump truth these days ...

I mean look at the trans debate ...ironically women were being told they were transphobic cos they refused to acknowledge trans women’s as women...

Stating that sex is a fact and not a construct is bigoted apparently...this despite it being rejected by hard science...

Responses aren’t scientific but based on marginalisation...so sex has to be a construct otherwise it marginalises trans people...

How someone feels has no relevance to material truth...well it shouldn’t...but hey it does...

If you feel offended...then that means what was said to you was offensive...
If you feel like a woman...then that means you are a woman...
If you feel this man is a predator for being in your vicinity...then that means he is at fault...

That Ocasio-Cortez summed up today’s discourse...

‘I think that there’s a lot of people more concerned about being precisely, factually and semantically correct than about being morally right.‘

What’s true is actually irrelevant frankly...

 

[shaykh]

https://news.sky.com/story/london-mayor-not-satisfied-by-met-chiefs-explanation-for-completely-unacceptable-policing-at-vigil-12246023

Imagine the gall of the police to enforce covid rules...sack the lot of them...

And she wants changes in the system ...very detailed aims there...

 

[Robert]

I think the UK is probably one of the safest countries in the world for women. This incident, while of course unfortunate, has been hijacked by feminists pushing an agenda and attempting to link everything to toxic masculinity.

Murder of a woman is “unfortunate” ? Perhaps you would care to change your terminology?

Every woman I know has been sexually harassed at some point, ranging from catcalls to being followed to unwanted touching to sexual assault to rape.

If you don’t want your sisters and daughter to face that, then you are a feminist.

 

[Robert]

logically there is no diff to you sitting 2 or 3 metres away or across the carriage, if a woman thinks you might attack her she will feel threatened regardless. how can u assume each women's tolerance for what constitutes a safe distance? the only consistent logical answer would be to not even sit in the same carriage.

i dont mean to sound ranty, but it sounds like trading common sense for an illusion of greater security here. yes women are more vulnerable than men, but they aren't children for whom special allowances must be made in regular social interactions imo.

if the onus of accounting for how women feel in the presence of men is made primarily the mans responsibility you will end up in a completely gender segregated society because the risk of offense or threat caused would in no way justify any gain form a standard social interaction.



the term is so loaded, i mean who even defines what it constitutes, i dont even know what its meant to mean.

You think there is no logical difference in how a woman feels being alone just two metres away from a stranger who is bigger and stronger than you than being ten metres away.

I worked in a place where women outnumbered men by ten to one. Being 6’2” with a deep voice and a penetrating stare, I asked advice from HR on how not to perceived as a threat by my colleagues. I was told not to enter a room containing a lone woman. I could speak to her from the door. Or if I had to, sit down in a seat so I was not between her and the door. For asking the question, I was praised for my self-awareness.

 

[Technics 1210]

So in summary, it's dangerous for a women to walk alone, but men should keep their distance from women because men know how women are feeling.

What kind of a deluded world have we ended up in.

 

[Technics 1210]

Murder of a woman is “unfortunate” ? Perhaps you would care to change your terminology?

Every woman I know has been sexually harassed at some point, ranging from catcalls to being followed to unwanted touching to sexual assault to rape.

If you don’t want your sisters and daughter to face that, then you are a feminist.

Every woman you know?

So being followed is classified as sexual harassment? Seriously? If i'm walking from the train station near my home, towards my home, and a woman happens to be walking in front of me on the same route, that's sexual harassment because I'm technically following her?

This is nonsense. By your account almost every man is a sexual predator - which is simply not true.

Here's a thought, women walk on the left side of the road, and men walk on the right side of the road - or is this discrimination?

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Murder of a woman is “unfortunate” ? Perhaps you would care to change your terminology?

Every woman I know has been sexually harassed at some point, ranging from catcalls to being followed to unwanted touching to sexual assault to rape.

If you don’t want your sisters and daughter to face that, then you are a feminist.

You are quite right 'unfortunate' isnt the right word, there is no way for me to edit the post though but it wasnt my intention to in any way down play the murder.

Most people don't want women to face the types of things you have mentioned, but the loaded language of some feminist is alienating and more often than not blames all men.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

You think there is no logical difference in how a woman feels being alone just two metres away from a stranger who is bigger and stronger than you than being ten metres away.

I worked in a place where women outnumbered men by ten to one. Being 6’2” with a deep voice and a penetrating stare, I asked advice from HR on how not to perceived as a threat by my colleagues. I was told not to enter a room containing a lone woman. I could speak to her from the door. Or if I had to, sit down in a seat so I was not between her and the door. For asking the question, I was praised for my self-awareness.

I had a manager who when speaking to men would keep his office door closed but when a woman entered he would keep the door open. This was due to a combination of making sure that the young lady was comfortable but also because the climate around women in the workplace made him fear that something he said could be misconstrued.

Its quite sad that in the workplace a normal conversation can be considered threatening. On one hand most of us genuinley want women to feel equal to men and comfortable in the workplace yet at the same time men are having to modify their normal behaviour so it isnt perceived as threatening.

 

[shaykh]

Every woman you know?

So being followed is classified as sexual harassment? Seriously? If i'm walking from the train station near my home, towards my home, and a woman happens to be walking in front of me on the same route, that's sexual harassment because I'm technically following her?

This is nonsense. By your account almost every man is a sexual predator - which is simply not true.

Here's a thought, women walk on the left side of the road, and men walk on the right side of the road - or is this discrimination?

The difference between unwanted attention and wanted attention comes down to how you’re perceived...

You can approach a girl you find attractive, introduce yourself politely and either you’re well received because the girl likes you or get a cold response...

You can do exactly the same thing but be perceived differently ...the same girl may also welcome the exact same approach from someone else...

Approaching girls you see on the street, or on a train etc is how a lot of ppl meet each especially in certain age groups ...

 

[ElRaja]

You think there is no logical difference in how a woman feels being alone just two metres away from a stranger who is bigger and stronger than you than being ten metres away.

maybe i didn't phrase myself well, in an empty train carriage with doors locked in transit, there is every possibility that some women may still feel threatened if you choose to sit in the same carriage with them even if your on the other side, whereas others may be impervious to your presence even if your 2 or 3 metres away.

yes you may be trying your best to mitigate that threat, but your reasoning is based upon perceptions that are impossible to assume within the norms of social interactions imo. so if this was expected as a standard of all men the path of least resistance would be minimising the likelihood of being in such situations in the first place, i.e. greater segregation.

I worked in a place where women outnumbered men by ten to one. Being 6’2” with a deep voice and a penetrating stare, I asked advice from HR on how not to perceived as a threat by my colleagues. I was told not to enter a room containing a lone woman. I could speak to her from the door. Or if I had to, sit down in a seat so I was not between her and the door. For asking the question, I was praised for my self-awareness.

to me this sounds logical, i may not operate exactly as you do but in an office environment i usually ask permission to enter anyone's room, and ask if they are busy or free to talk, gives people an easy out if they feel uncomfortable.

also i appreciate that there are certain considerations which must be taken into account when interacting with a woman alone, as much as for my own protection (given the implications any allegations could have on me) as for ensuring not to threaten anyone.

 

[Technics 1210]

The difference between unwanted attention and wanted attention comes down to how you’re perceived...

You can approach a girl you find attractive, introduce yourself politely and either you’re well received because the girl likes you or get a cold response...

You can do exactly the same thing but be perceived differently ...the same girl may also welcome the exact same approach from someone else...

Approaching girls you see on the street, or on a train etc is how a lot of ppl meet each especially in certain age groups ...

I would go as far as saying the internet is far more dangerous for women (and children) than the streets these days. Online grooming, harassment, abuse etc - all behind the veil of anonymity.

 

[ElRaja]

Well feelings trump truth these days ...

I mean look at the trans debate ...ironically women were being told they were transphobic cos they refused to acknowledge trans women’s as women...

Stating that sex is a fact and not a construct is bigoted apparently...this despite it being rejected by hard science...

Responses aren’t scientific but based on marginalisation...so sex has to be a construct otherwise it marginalises trans people...

How someone feels has no relevance to material truth...well it shouldn’t...but hey it does...

If you feel offended...then that means what was said to you was offensive...
If you feel like a woman...then that means you are a woman...
If you feel this man is a predator for being in your vicinity...then that means he is at fault...

That Ocasio-Cortez summed up today’s discourse...

‘I think that there’s a lot of people more concerned about being precisely, factually and semantically correct than about being morally right.‘

What’s true is actually irrelevant frankly...

truth is what the majority of society agree is true, ive realised keeping my mouth shut is an excellent way to not involve myself in an argument i have no chance of winning.

 

[shaykh]

I would go as far as saying the internet is far more dangerous for women (and children) than the streets these days. Online grooming, harassment, abuse etc - all behind the veil of anonymity.

Well online I guess you swipe right ...so you get attention from who you want ...

But such a depressing way of meeting ppl...such artificial, contrived means ...

I approached what became my first girlfriend in the queue at the cinema...she happened to like me...with someone else it could have been the cold shoulder...

On of my friends when we were younger ...she would get approached regularly on the street...sometimes ppl were respectful...sometimes ppl were pushy...she could appreciate the difference ...

The posts by Robert are insanely depressing if that is what the UK is becoming now...where every male/female interaction involves so many considerations ...if that’s progress then I’m glad the UK isn’t my home anymore...

 

[shaykh]

truth is what the majority of society agree is true, ive realised keeping my mouth shut is an excellent way to not involve myself in an argument i have no chance of winning.

Or the loudest voices ...

Plenty of women I know have no problem with being approached at a bar for example...or don’t subscribe this current aggressive form of feminism...but when you don’t have a problem with something you generally don’t speak ...

It’s the ones who have a problem with something who are the ones who make themselves heard...and although they have their own individual views they act as spokesperson of a collective and claim to represent said group...

 

[Technics 1210]

Well online I guess you swipe right ...so you get attention from who you want ...

But such a depressing way of meeting ppl...such artificial, contrived means ...

I approached what became my first girlfriend in the queue at the cinema...she happened to like me...with someone else it could have been the cold shoulder...

On of my friends when we were younger ...she would get approached regularly on the street...sometimes ppl were respectful...sometimes ppl were pushy...she could appreciate the difference ...

The posts by Robert are insanely depressing if that is what the UK is becoming now...where every male/female interaction involves so many considerations ...if that’s progress then I’m glad the UK isn’t my home anymore...

Robert's posts in this thread represent the extreme cases, and by no means the case across all of UK or the norm.

Though saying this, there is no doubt, UK has changed. Now you have to look behind you, ahead of you, before you even speak or blink in fear of offending someone etc.

 

[ElRaja]

Or the loudest voices ...

Plenty of women I know have no problem with being approached at a bar for example...or don’t subscribe this current aggressive form of feminism...but when you don’t have a problem with something you generally don’t speak ...

It’s the ones who have a problem with something who are the ones who make themselves heard...and although they have their own individual views they act as spokesperson of a collective and claim to represent said group...

theres two issues here, one abt personal interaction and one political, the political one definitely has overtones of social planning. and i wouldn't put all the blame on women, there are a lot of men who have actively contributed towards ideologies of collectivism over history, this to me seems like a different flavour of similar ideologies.

im not exactly sure why this has happened, i always considered myself an old school small 'l' liberal, and thought the world would continue on a path to greater individualism, but its obvious that has left people empty in some way, and increased the attractive of such politics. perhaps the loss of religion and the emptiness of meaningless consumerism has something to do with it.

sorry about not really answering anything just writing, im honestly confused about what has happened over the last 10 years and don't know where its going.

 

[Technics 1210]

truth is what the majority of society agree is true, ive realised keeping my mouth shut is an excellent way to not involve myself in an argument i have no chance of winning.

Reality is perception.

The problem here is the perception is portrayed in extreme measures.

 

[Markhor]

If we are talking murder...

There have been 24 murders of women in the past year...majority have taken place at the woman’s home by someone she knows ...for example one women was murdered by her son...one woman was murdered with her husband and child...

Thus it comes from a very privileged place when English people talk about ‘femicide’ and ‘epidemic’ as was mentioned in Clapham yesterday ...

13% of women are murdered by strangers compared to 33% for men...over 80% of those murdered are men...which further makes the femicide comments look ridiculous...

This isn’t to say women don’t feel safe...nor should feel safe at night...I’ve been attacked at night...and I also am cautious and have to exercise caution at night...cos when it comes to life or death men are a bigger threat to me than they are to women ...

What women do have to deal with though is sexual assault or harassment and that isn’t time dependent...

An estimated 144,000 women were victims of rape or sexual assault last year...
55,000 were actually reported...
And 1,439 were convicted of rape ...rape is notoriously difficult to prosecute for obvious reasons...
It’s worth noting that again the idea of there being rapists around every street corner is a bit far fetched...for the most part according to surveys over 90% of those attacked know their attacker...

23% are by a family member...
24% by a boyfriend/partner/husband/ex
44% by someone else known to them ...

What is commonplace on the streets is things like being inappropriately touched, catcalled or approach...
Harassment numbers are against estimates based on surveys...
4 in 10 for example have said they have been groped ...

Does this make the streets unsafe...the reality essentially isn’t that important...what is important is the perception...ie if one feels unsafe...then it doesn’t really matter if somewhere is safe overall ...

I had a gun pulled on me once in an area that was statistically safe when I lived in Colombia ...and had nothing happened to me in some of the shadier areas...but ones own experiences colour ones perceptions ...

So if 40% of women have been groped, followed or catcalled in their life they won’t feel comfortable ...

I’m not sure what the incendiary rhetoric though by protesters and MP’s is designed to achieve though ...addressing men as a collective when the majority of whom don’t mistreat women...and asking us collectively to fix up and answer for the crimes of others ...an MP saying I see all men as predators doesn’t progress the issue at all...

Well said as usual. These culture wars are pointless, toxic and extremely divisive, amplified by online "callout" culture and media shock jocks.

Society has the lost the ability to discuss major issues in a civil and respectful manner, and this is another example. The issue of violence against women is very serious indeed. However such incendiary rhetoric and posturing does nothing for the victim of this heinous crime and their family.

From a political POV, I'm surprised Priti Patel has publicly rebuked the Met given she loves to furnish her law and order credentials.

 

[Technics 1210]

theres two issues here, one abt personal interaction and one political, the political one definitely has overtones of social planning. and i wouldn't put all the blame on women, there are a lot of men who have actively contributed towards ideologies of collectivism over history, this to me seems like a different flavour of similar ideologies.

im not exactly sure why this has happened, i always considered myself an old school small 'l' liberal, and thought the world would continue on a path to greater individualism, but its obvious that has left people empty in some way, and increased the attractive of such politics. perhaps the loss of religion and the emptiness of meaningless consumerism has something to do with it.

sorry about not really answering anything just writing, im honestly confused about what has happened over the last 10 years and don't know where its going.

Austerity has happened in the last 10 years and couple this with attempts at derailing democracy its the perfect recipe for disaster.

When people have nothing they quickly lose faith in themselves and the system only to start blaming others.

Just look at the mainstream news, it is one depressing story after the next. The media has to be blamed too.

On top of this, the system of capitalism has meant most people are working to pay off debt rather than enjoy the finer things in life, like spending time with the family. I mean, where in the world is buying a house considered a life time achievement? Only in the West.

State of mind is everything, and the person who sleeps peacefully at night is the winner of this world.

 

[shaykh]

Well said as usual. These culture wars are pointless, toxic and extremely divisive, amplified by online "callout" culture and media shock jocks.

Society has the lost the ability to discuss major issues in a civil and respectful manner, and this is another example. The issue of violence against women is very serious indeed. However such incendiary rhetoric and posturing does nothing for the victim of this heinous crime and their family.

From a political POV, I'm surprised Priti Patel has publicly rebuked the Met given she loves to furnish her law and order credentials.

Lol yeh Priti surprised me too ...

One of the girls friends came out and said it’s a shame that her death is being politicised...it’s quite shameful actually in just how it has been co-opted...

I think most people can have a discussion in an open and civilised manner...but it’s the social media age...in real life most people don’t behave like that ...and those who do tend to not be representative of the collectives...I genuinely know no women who are incendiary in the manner in which these women are...yet the ones who are angry about something are the ones who get heard...they represent themselves when they claim to represent a whole group...

And as I said to El Raja when you don’t have a problem with something you don’t exactly make yourself heard...cos frankly you have better things to do than go out to Clapham and have a moan about men...

I watched a discussion on feminism on YouTube..it was a Thomas Sowell debate from the 70s...and what was great about it was how good he was at presenting his points and how good the woman was...they were both respectful and exchanged ideas...it wasn’t about owning your opponent...to get clicks, likes and traction you have to put yourself against someone and be as aggressive as possible...and also as in nuanced as possible...

 

[shaykh]

theres two issues here, one abt personal interaction and one political, the political one definitely has overtones of social planning. and i wouldn't put all the blame on women, there are a lot of men who have actively contributed towards ideologies of collectivism over history, this to me seems like a different flavour of similar ideologies.

im not exactly sure why this has happened, i always considered myself an old school small 'l' liberal, and thought the world would continue on a path to greater individualism, but its obvious that has left people empty in some way, and increased the attractive of such politics. perhaps the loss of religion and the emptiness of meaningless consumerism has something to do with it.

sorry about not really answering anything just writing, im honestly confused about what has happened over the last 10 years and don't know where its going.

The thing which makes me less negative about where the world is going is on a personal level with people I know I still have civilised nuanced conversation ...and civil disagreement...

Most people aren’t as intellectually bankrupt as the ones who get airtime ...

 

[shaykh]

To put together my own personal opinion of why I feel the response to this tragic murder has been negative...

I don’t define myself by gender nor ethnicity...nor do I speak for any collective...I solely speak for myself...seeing myself as an individual also means that I treat others in the same manner rather than reducing them...

In that sense I’m always intrigued when individuals become self appointed spokesperson for a given collective ...

So a lot the last couple days about ‘men this, men that’...the exploitation of one woman’s tragedy to express ones own personal grievance...with extremely divisive and vitriolic rhetoric...

To give one such example...one Tweet spoke about men respecting women and for us men to stop approaching women at bars and respect their space etc...now I met my first girlfriend in the queue of a cinema, I’ve approached girls on the street and at places...

These girls didn’t share the perspective of this tweeter...nor do a lot of girls I actually know and am or have been friends with...

Fact is when you don’t have a problem with something you don’t really have a reason to speak...the ones who DO have a problem with something will be those who speak out...

That needn’t be an issue however it becomes one when one engages in group talk...ie you take your own grievance and then decide you are spokesperson for that group...so rather than it being ‘I don’t want to be treated like this’...it becomes ‘we don’t want to be treated like this.’...

This isn’t limited to gender...which voices tend to get heard when it comes to say religion...in terms of Islam for example it will be the extremist fringe that have the loudest voice because they have the most grievances...and also then claim to represent the collective...ie the Muslim voice...when you don’t have a problem you aren’t going to be on the frontlines expressing it...

Georgia still remains my favourite country...and on an English teaching forum someone asked ‘what is Georgia like?’...the poster prior to me had a serious hatred for the place and people and spoke in absolutes...Georgians are X...

My response was one of this wasn’t my experience...the people I met were great...I had a wonderful time etc...I didn’t claim my perspective to be THE truth...it was my truth...

And herein lies the issue...what is deemed an absolute truth in many case often isn’t...it’s simply ones perception borne of experience...yet those who are the most angry are claiming a monopoly over truth and claiming their experiences and grievances are everyone’s...and sadly those who complain the loudest are the ones who get to define truth...

 

[ElRaja]

Austerity has happened in the last 10 years and couple this with attempts at derailing democracy its the perfect recipe for disaster.

When people have nothing they quickly lose faith in themselves and the system only to start blaming others.

Just look at the mainstream news, it is one depressing story after the next. The media has to be blamed too.

On top of this, the system of capitalism has meant most people are working to pay off debt rather than enjoy the finer things in life, like spending time with the family. I mean, where in the world is buying a house considered a life time achievement? Only in the West.

State of mind is everything, and the person who sleeps peacefully at night is the winner of this world.

capitalism in of itself isnt compulsive, you can easily say no to what you cant afford, however social media has magnified the "keeping up with jones'" complex imo.

but i agree with you to some extent, and i think people have become more self centred esp with regular family structures breaking down, perhaps the collectivism is a means to compensate

The thing which makes me less negative about where the world is going is on a personal level with people I know I still have civilised nuanced conversation ...and civil disagreement...

Most people aren’t as intellectually bankrupt as the ones who get airtime ...

agree on this, for my close friends, but ive also seen plenty in extended circles who are not which is why im maybe not as optimistic as yourself

 

[Robert]

Well said as usual. These culture wars are pointless, toxic and extremely divisive, amplified by online "callout" culture and media shock jocks.

Society has the lost the ability to discuss major issues in a civil and respectful manner, and this is another example. The issue of violence against women is very serious indeed. However such incendiary rhetoric and posturing does nothing for the victim of this heinous crime and their family.

From a political POV, I'm surprised Priti Patel has publicly rebuked the Met given she loves to furnish her law and order credentials.

To take the heat off herself as her authoritarian bill criminalising most public protest goes through Parliament today.

 

[Robert]

Lol yeh Priti surprised me too ...

One of the girls friends came out and said it’s a shame that her death is being politicised...it’s quite shameful actually in just how it has been co-opted...

I think most people can have a discussion in an open and civilised manner...but it’s the social media age...in real life most people don’t behave like that ...and those who do tend to not be representative of the collectives...I genuinely know no women who are incendiary in the manner in which these women are...yet the ones who are angry about something are the ones who get heard...they represent themselves when they claim to represent a whole group...

And as I said to El Raja when you don’t have a problem with something you don’t exactly make yourself heard...cos frankly you have better things to do than go out to Clapham and have a moan about men...

I watched a discussion on feminism on YouTube..it was a Thomas Sowell debate from the 70s...and what was great about it was how good he was at presenting his points and how good the woman was...they were both respectful and exchanged ideas...it wasn’t about owning your opponent...to get clicks, likes and traction you have to put yourself against someone and be as aggressive as possible...and also as in nuanced as possible...

The personal is political. Those at the vigil were not there to “have a moan about men” but to express how they do not feel safe, anywhere.

 

[Technics 1210]

To take the heat off herself as her authoritarian bill criminalising most public protest goes through Parliament today.

You do realise the UK is still under lockdown rules which will begin to ease within a few weeks?

On one hand you criticise the government for not handling Covid 19, then on the other hand you want protesters to break lockdown rules aslong as they wear masks whilst ignoring the risks of C19.

You can't have it both ways.

 

[Technics 1210]

The personal is political. Those at the vigil were not there to “have a moan about men” but to express how they do not feel safe, anywhere.

Why now and not when other women have been murdered in the UK, especially during Covid19?

This case is receiving extra attention by the media/politicians since the accused murderer is a MET officer.

Lets not pretend the UK is an unsafe place for women. It's these type of generalisations that cause more damage than good.

What you should be asking is why don't all female victims of murder receive the same attention from the media/politicians in the UK.

 

[MenInG]

Boris Johnson to meet senior officers today after saying he is 'deeply concerned' about police handling of a vigil on Clapham Common over the weekend

Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill to be debated in Commons that would give officers more powers to clamp down on protests - with Labour set to oppose

 

[shaykh]

The personal is political. Those at the vigil were not there to “have a moan about men” but to express how they do not feel safe, anywhere.

And so what?...they were told beforehand not to go unless they observed lockdown rules...there was one in Newport and no-ones moaning cos they actually were socially distanced...in Clapham there was a complete disregard for the rules...

And I’ll say again...to what end?...how does all the incendiary rhetoric boost their safety?...and yeah it was more or less a moan about men...‘enough is enough’, ‘men need to change’...meaningless slogans which have absolutely nothing tangible to contribute...

And as I’ve said already they speak for themselves...not all women...

 

[Technics 1210]

Boris Johnson to meet senior officers today after saying he is 'deeply concerned' about police handling of a vigil on Clapham Common over the weekend

Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill to be debated in Commons that would give officers more powers to clamp down on protests - with Labour set to oppose

Damn right. Extinction Rebellion is a good example. These left wing terrorists brought Heathrow to a standstill, and London for that matter too. Why? Not for peace, but for violence.

UK has become soft on protesters, in particular BLM. A few years ago, Boris procured water cannons from Germany as mayor of London but couldn't use them during the riots up and down the country in fear he was breaking the law.

Priti Patel is on the right track. Time to tame and mame these protestors who resort to violence while breaking the law.

 

[Firebat]

Let's talk about women's safety, says mourner at heart of UK policing uproar

LONDON (Reuters) - Grief and rage over the murder of Londoner Sarah Everard should be channelled into efforts to stop men’s violence against women, not into political arguments about police tactics at a vigil, one of the women arrested at the event said on Monday.

Everard, 33, was abducted as she walked home in south London on March 3 and a police officer has been charged with her kidnap and murder, provoking a national debate over how British society deals with male violence against women.

But the political focus shifted onto London’s Metropolitan Police after officers trying to disperse a vigil for Everard that breached COVID-19 lockdown rules scuffled with mourners and dragged women away in handcuffs on Saturday.

Patsy Stevenson - who was pictured being pinned to the ground, handcuffed and arrested by male officers in dramatic images that became a lightning rod for anger against the police - said on Monday she was dismayed at the turn of events.

“I accidentally went viral. I didn’t want this to happen. This happened like a whirlwind,” she said on Sky News.

“I’ve been thrown into the public eye and the only way I can make this not in vain is to not make it political, not against the police. It’s just about the safety of women and we need to talk about it,” she said.

An estimated 85,000 women are raped and more than 400,000 sexually assaulted in England and Wales each year, with only a tiny fraction of incidents leading to criminal convictions.

The most recent figures showed the conviction rate per rape allegation recorded by the police was 2.6%, a record low.

On Monday, the media focus was on whether the head of the Metropolitan Police, Cressida Dick, should resign over Saturday’s ugly scenes.

Prime Minister Boris Johnson said on Monday that he had full confidence in London’s police chief.

“The fundamental issue that we have to address as a country, as a society, as government, is that women must feel ... that when they make serious complaints about violence, about assault, that they are properly heard and properly addressed,” he said.

Read more: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-at-heart-of-uk-policing-uproar-idUSKBN2B70P6

 

[Technics 1210]

I bet if a cat died and the media made a song and dance of it then the lefty looney liberals will be claiming - Cats live matter.

Peasants.

 

[Rana]

One thing that is certain is that it is very difficult to be politically incorrect in England and possibly the world right now.

What happened to this young lady is highly tragic. My heart cries for her, however there are many attacks on women or missing people that go unreported.

A childhood friend of mine went missing for a year or so. Not once did I see a news reel of him on BBC or Sky news. Similarly, his remains were found in an abandoned woodland, his wife had given birth to his child in his absence.

 

[Technics 1210]

To take the heat off herself as her authoritarian bill criminalising most public protest goes through Parliament today.

This is more sensationalism.

The bill is titled : The Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Here are the 9 key changes:

- Imposes a start and finish time on protests

- Set noise limits on protests

- Apply these rules to a demonstration by just one person

- Changing sentencing rules so that serious criminals spend more time in jail before they can be conditionally released

- Judges will be allowed to consider jailing child murderers for their entire lives

- Maximum sentences for low-level assaults against emergency service workers doubled to two years

- On terrorism, the bill creates powers to more closely monitor offenders released from prison

- Community sentences for less serious crime to address underlying problems in offenders' lives

- Changes to sexual offences law to tackle abusive adults in positions of trust, such as sports coaches and religious figures


Which of the above do you disagree with and why?

 

[Robert]

Which of the above do you disagree with and why?

It looks reasonable in the terms you state. Read between the lines, consider the implications of the deliberately vague wording.

I went on a march in support of continued EU membership, for my rights as an EU citizen. This bill means that such an event could be ruled illegal. It would block the street, inconveniencing motorists - you left out the bit about “inconvenience” - therefore illegal. No noise means no megaphones - anyone with a megaphone can be arrested - so no event coordination. That bloke in the EU hat and clapboard outside Parliament can now be arrested just for standing in the street, because he has not arranged a start and finish time with the Police.

The community sentencing is a nice idea which sugars the pill. This bill is an attack on your civil liberties and mine - the right of protest - by an authoritarian establishment which fears collective expression of dissent such as BLM and XR.

I’ve been warning of creeping fascism in this place for years. Well, here it is, enacted in law.

 

[Robert]

Damn right. Extinction Rebellion is a good example. These left wing terrorists brought Heathrow to a standstill, and London for that matter too. Why? Not for peace, but for violence.

UK has become soft on protesters, in particular BLM. A few years ago, Boris procured water cannons from Germany as mayor of London but couldn't use them during the riots up and down the country in fear he was breaking the law.

Priti Patel is on the right track. Time to tame and mame these protestors who resort to violence while breaking the law.

That’s not quite correct. Mayor Johnson’s water cannon would have been ineffective against the 2011 disturbances. These were not protests but basically just mass looting. There was no big group of protestors to break up with the water cannon.

Everyone who looted got nicked. London is the most surveilled city in Europe. All those looters were on camera. The courts ran 24/7 and prison reception did too.

 

[Technics 1210]

That’s not quite correct. Mayor Johnson’s water cannon would have been ineffective against the 2011 disturbances. These were not protests but basically just mass looting. There was no big group of protestors to break up with the water cannon.

Everyone who looted got nicked. London is the most surveilled city in Europe. All those looters were on camera. The courts ran 24/7 and prison reception did too.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/home-secretarys-oral-statement-on-water-cannon

The use of the water canons was denied by the home office based on the grounds of safety.

 

[Technics 1210]

It looks reasonable in the terms you state. Read between the lines, consider the implications of the deliberately vague wording.

I went on a march in support of continued EU membership, for my rights as an EU citizen. This bill means that such an event could be ruled illegal. It would block the street, inconveniencing motorists - you left out the bit about “inconvenience” - therefore illegal. No noise means no megaphones - anyone with a megaphone can be arrested - so no event coordination. That bloke in the EU hat and clapboard outside Parliament can now be arrested just for standing in the street, because he has not arranged a start and finish time with the Police.

The community sentencing is a nice idea which sugars the pill. This bill is an attack on your civil liberties and mine - the right of protest - by an authoritarian establishment which fears collective expression of dissent such as BLM and XR.

I’ve been warning of creeping fascism in this place for years. Well, here it is, enacted in law.

The new bill is design for the likes of Extinction Rebellion and protests which defy the lockdown rules. Why don't some protestors obey the rules? Your right to protest doesn't mean you have the right to disturb others. You can still protest, but in a civil manner.

The bill also protects the communities and businesses from protesters disturbing the peace and local residents who have much right to live in peace than anyone else.

The bloke with the EU hat was a nuisance, because he was video/photo bombing where ever possible. He wouldn't let reporters get on with their job etc.

The bill doesn't destroy the right to protest, but does outline the rules which one can protest within.

I forgot to add the link (the above are not my words):

BBC News - What is the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill and how will it change protests?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56400751

 

[OMB]

Police officer Wayne Couzens charged with murder of Sarah Everard appears in court

Wayne Couzens, 48, appeared via videolink at the Old Bailey with two scars visible on his head.

A serving Metropolitan police officer will face trial on 25 October, charged with the kidnap and murder of Sarah Everard. Wayne Couzens, 48, appeared via videolink from Belmarsh prison for the hearing in court number 10 at the Old Bailey, his first crown court appearance. He wore a wine-coloured top and grey tracksuit and spoke only to confirm his name and his date of birth.

A scar was visible on the officer's forehead and around his left eye. The Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) is investigating how he received those injuries in two incidents in his police cell last week.

Members of Ms Everard's family also joined the proceedings by video link. In a short hearing, Tom Little QC for the prosecution said that it was anticipated the trial could span up to four weeks. Ms Everard disappeared on 3 March while walking back to her home in Brixton, south London. She was last spotted on a doorbell security camera, walking alone and heading towards Tulse Hill. Her boyfriend reported her missing the next day.

Ms Everard's body was found a week later inside a builder's bag in woodland in Ashford, Kent and was identified through dental records. A post-mortem has been carried out but no cause of death has been released. Scotland Yard and the Crown Prosecution Service agreed last Friday to charge PC Couzens, an armed officer with the Met's Parliamentary and Diplomatic Protection Command.

Kent County Council has confirmed that an inquest into Ms Everard's death is likely to be opened later this week. There was no application for bail and the defendant was remanded in custody. He will appear at the Old Bailey again for a plea and trial preparation hearing on 9 July.

https://news.sky.com/story/police-officer-charged-with-murder-of-sarah-everard-appears-in-court-12247436

 

[Robert]

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/home-secretarys-oral-statement-on-water-cannon

The use of the water canons was denied by the home office based on the grounds of safety.

Theresa May did so, but the cannon would have been useless in those disturbances as the looters and burners did not confront police lines.

As all the looters were brought to justice it would be incorrect to say that the state was “soft” on them.