How the racist quota system works in Pakistan

[Deosai]

It’s been more than 60 years since Pakistan’s independence, yet we struggle with dealing (let alone resolving) some of the fundamental issues that hamper our progress, e.g., Feudalism, Quota system, racism, illiteracy, injustice, lack of healthy food and health facilities and shelter for living.

Quota system in Pakistani law is the root cause of Racism in the country, which has resulted in widespread economic disparity, thus hate.

I was startled to hear this, on SamaTV, earlier today (Mar 2013). I thought quota system was a thing of history, what we faced in college/university admissions, but the guest said that there has been hiring in the Police department, also referred KMC/KBCA, using quota system, denying deserving candidates on merit. I don’t know how many institutions are corrupted like that. Since it’s a law, it applies to every government institutions.

The original 1973 constitution had fixed a period of 10 years for the job quota for the provinces, but the governments in the 1980s and 1990s enhanced it to 40 years which were to expire on Aug 13, 2013. Check this, last year (2012) Law Ministry got approval for the extension of Quota System in Sindh for the next 20 years. Take an example of CSS (Central Superior Service of Pakistan), where only 10% of posts are reserved on merit (1). Can you believe that! 90% of our bureaucrats are recruited through lowering the selection criteria, while other more intelligent Pakistanis are denied to serve the nation. And you wonder what’s wrong in our government, why there’s so much inefficiency, corruption and racism? We are doing irreparable damage, by putting Quota system in any institution.

According to the current recruitment policy listed at the Central Superior Service of Pakistan website, only 10% of posts are reserved for merit.

FPSC (Federal Public Services Commission) allocates jobs in civil services institutions (every govt. organization, WAPDA, EOBI, Steel Mills, Railways, FBR, Excise & Taxation, Water board, Defence, Finance, SBP, including Police) on the basis of merit and provincial or regional quotas. As per their rule, they are:

The passing percentage of the candidates in the written examination of CSS was 30% in 2002. In 2013 that figure has plummeted to a barely believable 2.09%.

If we inject inefficiency into institutions, how can we expect efficiency as the outcome ?

Do we need a scholar to tell us, what happens, when merit is killed. Do we need someone else to explain, what’s going on around us today, as it breeds a whole lot of issues in our society, viz. injustice, economic disparity, nepotism, inefficiency, corruption, bribery, feelings of deprivation, unemployment for skilled resources, resulting in hatred, fighting, killing and chaos! Don’t you see how many people leave country, to get fairer chance in education, job, services, etc. So much so, these issues become so complex, we consider them incorrigible, however you know the root cause, so we can very much redress it, if we want to.

Quota for a time being is ok for greater educational access for the underprivileged, but it shouldn’t be renewed for 20 more years after being used for past 60 years. Further, Quota system, is not allowed in any other case e.g., hiring/jobs, as it becomes discrimination. And you know discrimination is prohibited in Islam, may it be on the basis of race, color, family, land, or ethnicity. You cannot favor one over other.

Quota system has been declared un-islamic by Federal Shariat Court and illegal by the Supreme Court of Pakistan.

If some sectors are underprivileged, it’s the Govt’s responsibility to provide sufficient opportunities for their services (eg education, jobs, health), instead of resorting to unfair means and compromising on quality, through giving advantage to someone less qualified, over the ones who’s worked hard to earn it, during gov’t hirings. Imagine a doctor hired at a Govt. hospital on lesser grades (based on quota), how will he/she treats the patient ? And then we wonder why Doctors aren’t respected anymore, like the way our culture treated this profession sacredly.

Quota clearly deteriorate the quality of service and causes hatred among deprived parties. It’s time we abolish such policies and promote hard work and equal opportunity. And we can very well improve our society as a whole. You know, when a small Pakistani businessman understands it and never compromises on quality of service, why can’t we do it as a nation as well.

Quota system is unconstitutional, unethical, and unIslamic.

Let’s appreciate, share and demand ‘MERIT’ and bring back harmony in our society.

http://www.pkhope.com/2013-and-we-still-have-quota-system-in-pakistan/

 

[Syed1]

There should only be quota for FATA, Baluchistan and Thar.. The rest of Pakistan is basically at same or similar level of development and all students have almost the same opportunities to excel.

 

[Slog]

In Sindh it's extra special because there are quotas within quotas.

I have written many posts on them and may dig them out later

 

[Deosai]

In Sindh it's extra special because there are quotas within quotas.

I have written many posts on them and may dig them out later

Yeah, it's specifically designed to discriminate against Karachiites.

 

[DrSchultz]

I'm guessing Govt wants to avoid a Bangla like situation where resentment grew due to low representation in civil service so it has given everyone a quota according to their population.

 

[Deosai]

There should only be quota for FATA, Baluchistan and Thar.. The rest of Pakistan is basically at same or similar level of development and all students have almost the same opportunities to excel.

They could follow something like 'Affirmative Action' in America but reserving only 10% of jobs or seats for merit is a joke

 

[Deosai]

I'm guessing Govt wants to avoid a Bangla like situation where resentment grew due to low representation in civil service so it has given everyone a quota according to their population.

and create a "Bangla" like situation in Karachi, makes a lot of sense....

 

[DrSchultz]

They could follow something like 'Affirmative Action' in America but reserving only 10% of jobs or seats for merit is a joke

Isn't there some merit followed in the specific quotas too?

 

[Deosai]

Isn't there some merit followed in the specific quotas too?

Nope.

 

[DrSchultz]

I've heard PMLN will conduct census next in 2017. Hope the quota percentages are adjusted with relative change to population.

I have some hope for decent civil service reform from the current govt. They don't care much about pissing govt workers off and changing things since their main support is from private sector.

 

[DrSchultz]

Nope.

E.g the 50% of seats from Punjab. Aren't candidates chosen on it according to merit?

 

[Slog]

Yeah, it's specifically designed to discriminate against Karachiites.

sarcasm?

But yeah youre right

 

[Deosai]

E.g the 50% of seats from Punjab. Aren't candidates chosen on it according to merit?

Idk about Punjab, but def not here.

Hardly know any Karachiite that works for the govt, unless they're originally from the interior...

 

[Deosai]

I've heard PMLN will conduct census next in 2017. Hope the quota percentages are adjusted with relative change to population.

I have some hope for decent civil service reform from the current govt. They don't care much about pissing govt workers off and changing things since their main support is from private sector.

Just get rid of the quota system and hire people on merit.

EthnoNationalists are just insecure that Karachiites would take most of the jobs. We're like the Jews of Pakistan.

 

[Slog]

E.g the 50% of seats from Punjab. Aren't candidates chosen on it according to merit?

not sure abt Punjab but in Sindh most seats go to interior. Worst thing is it is taken by waderas who live in Karachi anyway but put their interior addresses when applying.

 

[DrSchultz]

not sure abt Punjab but in Sindh most seats go to interior. Worst thing is it is taken by waderas who live in Karachi anyway but put their interior addresses when applying.

How do they choose candidates for say the 7.6% quota from Urban Sindh?

Aren't they chosen on merit, although their number is limited to a max 7.6%?

 

[DrSchultz]

Just get rid of the quota system and hire people on merit.

EthnoNationalists are just insecure that Karachiites would take most of the jobs. We're like the Jews of Pakistan.

I am against quota system too.
But there should be some seats reserved for Baloch and Fata. Perhaps some reserved for minorities and women too.

 

[Slog]

How do they choose candidates for say the 7.6% quota from Urban Sindh?

Aren't they chosen on merit, although their number is limited to a max 7.6%?

It's Pakistan. Corruption works but yeah technically the pittance of that percentage should be on merit.

How can you get merit when it's restricted to such a small percentage and the majority of the qualified candidates are from Karachi. Also according to latest figures Urban Sindh has significantly more population than rural Sindh. So urban areas have more qualified candidates and get lesser spots too.

Let's say there are 10 spots from Sindh for a federal gig. Only 4 are for Karachi. 6 are Sindh. But there are let's say 50 applicants from Karachi and let's say 10 from Sindh. Also most of the applicants for Sindh spots are children of waderas and rich Sindhis who actually live In Karachi but put the address from Their Sindh domicile while applying. And they also qualify for Karachi spots if need be because they reside there. So the quota system doesn't even help the poor Sindhis becaus all the spots meant for them are taken by rich Sindhis who are living in Karachi and just happen to own some land in Sindh. imagine how it must feel for a Lower middle class Urdu speaking (or others if they apply for the spots meant for Karchi) Karachiite who works hard and is more qualified but ends up losing his spot to a son of a wadera who had a much richer upbringing and hence more opportunities but still is given an additional leg up due to the quota system.

This is for federal. For provincial level jobs etc it gets even worse. Quota system might still have been acceptable if it was actually helping people who reside IN Sindh. But it's a farce right now but of course it can never be repealed because PPP derives most of its support form the rich Sindhi landowners who benefit greatly from this and this the cycle continues

 

[DrSchultz]

It's Pakistan. Corruption works but yeah technically the pittance of that percentage should be on merit.

How can you get merit when it's restricted to such a small percentage and the majority of the qualified candidates are from Karachi. Also according to latest figures Urban Sindh has significantly more population than rural Sindh. So urban areas have more qualified candidates and get lesser spots too.

Let's say there are 10 spots from Sindh for a federal gig. Only 4 are for Karachi. 6 are Sindh. But there are let's say 50 applicants from Karachi and let's say 10 from Sindh. Also most of the applicants for Sindh spots are children of waderas and rich Sindhis who actually live In Karachi but put the address from Their Sindh domicile while applying. And they also qualify for Karachi spots if need be because they reside there. So the quota system doesn't even help the poor Sindhis becaus all the spots meant for them are taken by rich Sindhis who are living in Karachi and just happen to own some land in Sindh. imagine how it must feel for a Lower middle class Urdu speaking (or others if they apply for the spots meant for Karchi) Karachiite who works hard and is more qualified but ends up losing his spot to a son of a wadera who had a much richer upbringing and hence more opportunities but still is given an additional leg up due to the quota system.

This is for federal. For provincial level jobs etc it gets even worse. Quota system might still have been acceptable if it was actually helping people who reside IN Sindh. But it's a farce right now but of course it can never be repealed because PPP derives most of its support form the rich Sindhi landowners who benefit greatly from this and this the cycle continues

Muhajirs situation right now in Sindh I feel is similar to muslims in United India. No matter what they'd have done, no way they could get their men in govt. It's better to separate than have others rule over you.

Karachi needs to become a separate administrative division from Sindh.

 

[Slog]

Muhajirs situation right now in Sindh I feel is similar to muslims in United India. No matter what they'd have done, no way they could get their men in govt. It's better to separate than have others rule over you.

Karachi needs to become a separate administrative division from Sindh.

That's why I keep saying we need more provinces

 

[Deosai]

This is for federal. For provincial level jobs etc it gets even worse. Quota system might still have been acceptable if it was actually helping people who reside IN Sindh. But it's a farce right now but of course it can never be repealed because PPP derives most of its support form the rich Sindhi landowners who benefit greatly from this and this the cycle continues

This why I don't get why Bhutto is so popular in Sindh and among liberal urban Punjabis (wannabe rebels); the man was a Pseudo-socialist, destroyed the economy, gave into radicals and played a role in losing a part of the country. Yet leftoids from urban Punjab and Sindh worship him like he's some kind of Bernie Sanders.

 

[Slog]

This why I don't get why Bhutto is so popular in Sindh and among liberal urban Punjabis (wannabe rebels); the man was a Pseudo-socialist, destroyed the economy, gave into radicals and played a role in losing a part of the country. Yet leftoids from urban Punjab and Sindh worship him like he's some kind of Bernie Sanders.

In rural Sindh the votes work on biraadri sustem. Whoever the waderas and jageerdara back wins the election. Things like quota system are a Godsend for them so why wouldn't they support Bhutto?

 

[DrSchultz]

This why I don't get why Bhutto is so popular in Sindh and among liberal urban Punjabis (wannabe rebels); the man was a Pseudo-socialist, destroyed the economy, gave into radicals and played a role in losing a part of the country. Yet leftoids from urban Punjab and Sindh worship him like he's some kind of Bernie Sanders.

He isn't as popular as you're making him out to be.
Do a poll in LUMS (garh of rich liberal urban punjabis) and you'll find he is not very well liked. This is because most rich L-U-Ps come from families whose businesses were affected by nationalization.

He is a lot more popular in poor villages surrounding Lahore, especially to the North. But recent performance of PPP has even got them jaded.

 

[Deosai]

In rural Sindh the votes work on biraadri sustem. Whoever the waderas and jageerdara back wins the election. Things like quota system are a Godsend for them so why wouldn't they support Bhutto?

Makes sense, but it doesn't explain why liberal "che wannabe" Punjabis idolize Bhutto

 

[Deosai]

He isn't as popular as you're making him out to be.
Do a poll in LUMS (garh of rich liberal urban punjabis) and you'll find he is not very well liked. This is because most rich L-U-Ps come from families whose businesses were affected by nationalization.

He is a lot more popular in poor villages surrounding Lahore, especially to the North. But recent performance of PPP has even got them jaded.

Well the children of zamindars and sardars must love him; he carried out no land reforms and benefited the feudals

 

[DrSchultz]

Well the children of zamindars and sardars must love him; he carried out no land reforms and benefited the feudals

The maximum individual land holding ceiling was reduced during his time.

 

[Yossarian]

The article in the OP appears to be written by someone who has a close relative or two that was denied a job. The rich and powerful in a country like Pakistan already have a monopoly on the top jobs in all public institutions. Just because their kids go to the best schools (with entry based upon wealth, connections, and a bit of bribery and corruption thrown in ) and thus get, on average, the better grades, it doesn't mean that they are more intelligent or more competent than someone who, despite getting good grades from your average run-of-the-mill school and comes from a more modest background, has no powerful connections and lacks the financial means to bribe their way to the top.

In a country like Pakistan, the quota system may not be the best option, but it does go some way towards evening out the playing field.

 

[Deosai]

The article in the OP appears to be written by someone who has a close relative or two that was denied a job. The rich and powerful in a country like Pakistan already have a monopoly on the top jobs in all public institutions. Just because their kids go to the best schools (with entry based upon wealth, connections, and a bit of bribery and corruption thrown in ) and thus get, on average, the better grades, it doesn't mean that they are more intelligent or more competent than someone who, despite getting good grades from your average run-of-the-mill school and comes from a more modest background, has no powerful connections and lacks the financial means to bribe their way to the top.

In a country like Pakistan, the quota system may not be the best option, but it does go some way towards evening out the playing field.

Good God. You have a very poor understanding of the situation in Pakistan.

The quota system is discriminatory and racist, it was designed against the Muhajirs of Karachi who make up a mere 7% of Pakistan's pop. but because Muhajirs came from urban India and had better education, they benefited in the job market, the quota system was introduced by Bhutto to shut out this community from jobs in the public sector.

Most Muhajirs are not rich. Just a bit more educated cause of cultural reasons. It's actually rich Waderas from inland Sindh that benefit from this quota system. You have absolutely no understanding of the situation.

 

[Slog]

The article in the OP appears to be written by someone who has a close relative or two that was denied a job. The rich and powerful in a country like Pakistan already have a monopoly on the top jobs in all public institutions. Just because their kids go to the best schools (with entry based upon wealth, connections, and a bit of bribery and corruption thrown in ) and thus get, on average, the better grades, it doesn't mean that they are more intelligent or more competent than someone who, despite getting good grades from your average run-of-the-mill school and comes from a more modest background, has no powerful connections and lacks the financial means to bribe their way to the top.

In a country like Pakistan, the quota system may not be the best option, but it does go some way towards evening out the playing field.

Absolutely no understanding of the situation. It's mostly helps rich members of particular communities

 

[anakin]

Any quota system which doesnt filter out the rich will be exploited by the rich of last generations!!

 

[waleed88]

The article in the OP appears to be written by someone who has a close relative or two that was denied a job. The rich and powerful in a country like Pakistan already have a monopoly on the top jobs in all public institutions. Just because their kids go to the best schools (with entry based upon wealth, connections, and a bit of bribery and corruption thrown in ) and thus get, on average, the better grades, it doesn't mean that they are more intelligent or more competent than someone who, despite getting good grades from your average run-of-the-mill school and comes from a more modest background, has no powerful connections and lacks the financial means to bribe their way to the top.

In a country like Pakistan, the quota system may not be the best option, but it does go some way towards evening out the playing field.

When Karachi was formed, it was the capital of Pakistan.

Mostly Mohajirs were in the government, formed the educated class of Pakistan, since Urdu was their preferred language and Sindhis were more proficient in speaking Sindhi.

Muhajirs and the minority community did alot of work in establishing Pakistan, all the governement jobs held under the mohajirs helped Karachi flourish since they formed the educated class. While sindhis were largely uneducated.

Under Bhutto the quota system was introduced, whereby less educated Sindhis got more priveleged jobs just because of their caste, and Muhajirs in general were ignored governement posts. Sindhis got preferential treatment for being Sindhis, not on merit.

Sindhi became the official language of sindh, and this led largely to the formation of MQM, their sole purpose were the rights of the muhajirs. Who were vastly educated and unemployed. Largely because of discrimination.

Racist Discrimination is a big reason because of which , East Pakistan became Bangladesh, since no way our 'Punjabi elite'/ army were willing to be ruled by Sheikh Mujib ur Rehman as Prime Minister, (his party won the elections fair and square).

Was the reason Mujib ur Rehman resorted to the rights of Bangladesh, because largely Bengalis were presented as someone inferior to Punjabi elites in skin color and race.

They were not allowed government jobs, were not allowed to be a part of the army. They were thought the 'achooth' race in general. (Source wikipedia " 1971 bengal war).

Largely the discriminatory behavior of the army is the reason the country divided into two.

Is also currently the reason Karachi is held hostage by the rangers, and local body elections are never held in Karachi. Since on merit, most of the establishment cannot swallow the mandate of Karachi is held by an inferior caste the muhajirs.

I am not an MQM supporter but I do sympathize with them, the establishment brings cases out against them, do operations against them, treats them as some local mafia, don't accept the existence of MQM as a political party.

The biggest corruption is done by the army themselves, according to a list in NAB, out of 150 names, large number of them belong to the army.

yet political parties are made out as corrupt since they are civilians, and can be held accountable, while ex army generals backed by the establishment get away due to their army status.

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[waleed88]

The beef I have with MQM is them being used by the establishment and army in general, whenever times have suited MQM, they have done the establishments dirty work.

They were backed by Zia ul haq to rival the political backlash after Bhutto's hanging. Hence taking the mandate away from Karachi using their militant wing.

Once MQM became a monster to large for the army to bear, an operation was started against them 1992.

Despite being in power for most of the time since late 80s, MQM has been held hostage on the cases formed against them by the army, for the work they largely did under Army's permission.

And again in the 2000s when Musharraf backed them for their work in Karachi.

Establishment uses them to whatever they want to achieve, and then opens old cases against them, labels them thugs and mafia. Although MQM has a middle class party background with alot of educated people on their front. It suffers from a bad reputation, and negative propaganda against them for their partial anti establishment stance.

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[waleed88]

Karachi should be a separate province though.

Its demographic is different to one that is whole for Sindh - which is largely dominated by Sindhis.

Karachi has muhajirs, sindhis, pathans, punjabis all in one city.

Its population and area occupied is really different. Largely urban educated people. Industrial development, sindh is more agricultural based in its earnings.

2/3rd of Sindh's income comes from Karachi itself.

Karachi is not Sindh's golden goose. But since Sindhi's of interior are generally not educated enough to positively affect Sindh's economy and GDP, they have to rely on the income produced by Karachi for most of the time.

Hence if Karachi is a separate province, PPP and Sindh's economy is doomed. PPP have ensured Sindhi's have remained uneducated baradiri that votes for them while their jadirdaar's enjoy the life of royalty. Ensuring their vote bank in the process. But detrimental for interior sindh in general.

Lack of education is the biggest reason of this plague of jayalaism and extremist mentality that exists in this province.

The politics of karachi is however about how much power a party has, and how much area a caste has occupied.

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[waleed88]

Makes sense, but it doesn't explain why liberal "che wannabe" Punjabis idolize Bhutto

Mostly because an anti-establishment slogan. PPP has lost party members and leaders while standing up to army.

Martial law is prevelant disease, we as people generally idolize army as an institution and believe in controlled democracy.

Bhutto the first elected prime minister since liaquat ali khan started a political and civilian movement that became beyond army's control.

Pakistan has always been a negotiated state, our orders coming directly from the United states, during the time where there were 2 superpowers.

An elected government with a parliament, people getting educated is not what a country would want.

Our country's army generals wanted american dollars as aid, and not wanted to be a part of the socialist model that didnot allow the rich to be richer.

Instead gave the rights to poor people and a respected life.

The anti establishment naara didnot stand well with the army, who believed right conservatism was the right model for the country.

Led us to fighting wars and supporting the afghan war of the 1980s. This one inclusion of Afghan war has destroyed generation of generations of Pakistanis and we still the effects of that war to present day. Since now those same Afghans are the deadly taliban.

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[waleed88]

Right capitalism***

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[waleed88]

It was a conservative model that didnot promote freedom of speech, instead allowed state level mismanagement at the hands of a dictator.

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[Yossarian]

To be perfectly honest, I'm not interested in the internal politics of Pakistan. By and large, it doesn't matter who is in power as it doesn't affect me very much.
Sure, it affects my extended family in Pakistan. But since they are spread all over the country, and range from being farmers, to shopkeepers, to businessmen, to university professors and such like, ie all walks of life, they all have their own political preferences, it's no point in me being in favour of this party or that party on their behalf.

The only time I am affected by Pakistani politics are:
1. The Pakistani government policies and actions, including foreign policy, eventually has an impact on my life in the UK e.g. Terrorism related issues, additional inconvenience at airports due to my Pakistani ethnicity ..etc.

2. Pakistani political parties opening offices and establishing branches in the UK, and disruption caused (plus negative publicity in UK press about Pakistanis) by them then holding protests and marches on British streets in support of various political parties in Pakistan.

Racist Discrimination is a big reason because of which , East Pakistan became Bangladesh, since no way our 'Punjabi elite'/ army were willing to be ruled by Sheikh Mujib ur Rehman as Prime Minister, (his party won the elections fair and square).

Was the reason Mujib ur Rehman resorted to the rights of Bangladesh, because largely Bengalis were presented as someone inferior to Punjabi elites in skin color and race.

They were not allowed government jobs, were not allowed to be a part of the army. They were thought the 'achooth' race in general. (Source wikipedia " 1971 bengal war).

Largely the discriminatory behavior of the army is the reason the country divided into two.

Frankly speaking, a Pakistan consisting of two halves separated by thousands of miles of your enemy's territory with whom you've fought wars, and the only way to move between the two halves is via thousands of miles of ocean, was never going to work. It was just a matter of time before the two separated.

 

[waleed88]

To be perfectly honest, I'm not interested in the internal politics of Pakistan. By and large, it doesn't matter who is in power as it doesn't affect me very much.
Sure, it affects my extended family in Pakistan. But since they are spread all over the country, and range from being farmers, to shopkeepers, to businessmen, to university professors and such like, ie all walks of life, they all have their own political preferences, it's no point in me being in favour of this party or that party on their behalf.

The only time I am affected by Pakistani politics are:
1. The Pakistani government policies and actions, including foreign policy, eventually has an impact on my life in the UK e.g. Terrorism related issues, additional inconvenience at airports due to my Pakistani ethnicity ..etc.

2. Pakistani political parties opening offices and establishing branches in the UK, and disruption caused (plus negative publicity in UK press about Pakistanis) by them then holding protests and marches on British streets in support of various political parties in Pakistan.Frankly speaking, a Pakistan consisting of two halves separated by thousands of miles of your enemy's territory with whom you've fought wars, and the only way to move between the two halves is via thousands of miles of ocean, was never going to work. It was just a matter of time before the two separated.

Still doesn't justify killing 3 million Bangladeshis students activitists, kids, men and women.

Committing war crimes against women of Bangladesh.

3,00,000 women have been dispected by our army generals.

Their women still bearing the shame of those men that committed those crimes.

It was one of the most disgraceful moments in the history of Pakistan army.

'Operation search light' was committed under the orders of General tikka Khan nicknamed the butcher.

Yahya Khan was ceremoniously court marshalled, all his medals were taken off from stripes.

This war is a disgrace to our history that we never talk about, instead we chest thump about the 1965 war, a war that we instigated ourselves, another fact we lie to our own people.

Source wikipedia.

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[waleed88]

3,00,000 women disrespected by our army soldiers*****

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[waleed88]

What gave the army the right commit those offences?

Who was held accountable for those actions?

Or the 90,000 of our army soliders who were help Captive by the Indian army once we surrendered.

They were returned stripped from their uniforms. Our uniform of our soldiers is in one of the museums of Delhi, is symbol of embarasssement and proof that our army soldiers were returned to their own country, after the agreement of the simla pact. But they were returned in their shorts.


So polish up on history before talking about the subtitlties of what has been taught to you and what reality was.
[MENTION=4930]Yossarian[/MENTION]

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[Deosai]

3,00,000 women disrespected by our army soldiers*****

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The number is more likely 20,000 odd.

Also Bengali militias raped thousands of Urdu-speaking and West Pakistani women, just ask any Urdu-speaker that lived through that war. For them the army was a Godsend.

 

[waleed88]

The number is more likely 20,000 odd.

Also Bengali militias raped thousands of Urdu-speaking and West Pakistani women, just ask any Urdu-speaker that lived through that war. For them the army was a Godsend.

Always go for unbiased sources please.

United Nations sources say the numbers were in 100s of thousands.

Also it generally created a negative image of Pakistan world wide, and was a huge dent to the Kashmir issue we were so desperate to resolve..

One of the clauses of the Simla Pact was no more talk of Kashmir issue on International forums.

Global media sided with India, and Pakistan army was left to rue their wounds. Something we had a big role in doing.

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[Deosai]

Still doesn't justify killing 3 million Bangladeshis students activitists, kids, men and women.

Committing war crimes against women of Bangladesh.

3,00,000 women have been dispected by our army generals.

Their women still bearing the shame of those men that committed those crimes.

It was one of the most disgraceful moments in the history of Pakistan army.

'Operation search light' was committed under the orders of General tikka Khan nicknamed the butcher.

Yahya Khan was ceremoniously court marshalled, all his medals were taken off from stripes.

This war is a disgrace to our history that we never talk about, instead we chest thump about the 1965 war, a war that we instigated ourselves, another fact we lie to our own people.

Source wikipedia.

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When Karachi was formed, it was the capital of Pakistan.

Mostly Mohajirs were in the government, formed the educated class of Pakistan, since Urdu was their preferred language and Sindhis were more proficient in speaking Sindhi.

Muhajirs and the minority community did alot of work in establishing Pakistan, all the governement jobs held under the mohajirs helped Karachi flourish since they formed the educated class. While sindhis were largely uneducated.

Under Bhutto the quota system was introduced, whereby less educated Sindhis got more priveleged jobs just because of their caste, and Muhajirs in general were ignored governement posts. Sindhis got preferential treatment for being Sindhis, not on merit.

Sindhi became the official language of sindh, and this led largely to the formation of MQM, their sole purpose were the rights of the muhajirs. Who were vastly educated and unemployed. Largely because of discrimination.

Racist Discrimination is a big reason because of which , East Pakistan became Bangladesh, since no way our 'Punjabi elite'/ army were willing to be ruled by Sheikh Mujib ur Rehman as Prime Minister, (his party won the elections fair and square).

Was the reason Mujib ur Rehman resorted to the rights of Bangladesh, because largely Bengalis were presented as someone inferior to Punjabi elites in skin color and race.

They were not allowed government jobs, were not allowed to be a part of the army. They were thought the 'achooth' race in general. (Source wikipedia " 1971 bengal war).

Largely the discriminatory behavior of the army is the reason the country divided into two.

Is also currently the reason Karachi is held hostage by the rangers, and local body elections are never held in Karachi. Since on merit, most of the establishment cannot swallow the mandate of Karachi is held by an inferior caste the muhajirs.

I am not an MQM supporter but I do sympathize with them, the establishment brings cases out against them, do operations against them, treats them as some local mafia, don't accept the existence of MQM as a political party.

The biggest corruption is done by the army themselves, according to a list in NAB, out of 150 names, large number of them belong to the army.

yet political parties are made out as corrupt since they are civilians, and can be h eld accountable, while ex army generals backed by the establishment get away due to their army status.

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The 3 million figure is far fetched and Bengali jingoist propaganda, even moderate Bengalis dispute the figure. Neutral sources put the number at 200,000-300,000, which is still awful but Bengal is one of the most densely populated areas in the world and that deathtoll includes Urdu-speakers & West Pakistanis lynched during the war by Bengali rebels.

Lets not make this about the Bengali war, this is about the quota system and circa 2015. I don't want this thread to be hijacked for army-bashing.

 

[waleed88]

'Heinous war crimes and a genocide of Bangladeshi people was committed.'

As per wikipedia.

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[waleed88]

The 3 million figure is far fetched and Bengali jingoist propaganda, even moderate Bengalis dispute the figure. Neutral sources put the number at 200,000-300,000, which is still awful but Bengal is one of the most densely populated areas in the world and that deathtoll includes Urdu-speakers & West Pakistanis lynched during the war by Bengali rebels.

Lets not make this about the Bengali war, this is about the quota system and circa 2015. I don't want this thread to be hijacked for army-bashing.

Its not army bashing really sorry to hear that.

Discrimination is a big reason for the separation of Bangladesh, as was the discrimination against Muhajirs which led to MQM being formed.

All a case of Punjabi Superiority/ idolizing of armed forces which is dominated by punjabis.



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[Deosai]

Always go for unbiased sources please.

United Nations sources say the numbers were in 100s of thousands.

Also it generally created a negative image of Pakistan world wide, and was a huge dent to the Kashmir issue we were so desperate to resolve..

One of the clauses of the Simla Pact was no more talk of Kashmir issue on International forums.

Global media sided with India, and Pakistan army was left to rue their wounds. Something we had a big role in doing.

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This would be anywhere in the world where there is a armed separatist movement, no country/army is morally superior in that regard. Overall we were bound to lose Bengal, it was SO FREAKING FAR AWAY, and culturally/civilizationally so different. Bengal should have been separate from Pakistan and India as Suhrawardy had proposed.

Anyways, this subject is going off tangent.

 

[waleed88]

Ofcourse PPP and Sindhi quota system also played a part against MQM.

Punjabi dominance as a whole in the military and majority of government bodies led to discrimination against other provinces including East Pakistan.

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[Deosai]

Its not army bashing really sorry to hear that.

Discrimination is a big reason for the separation of Bangladesh, as was the discrimination against Muhajirs which led to MQM being formed.

All a case of Punjabi Superiority/ idolizing of armed forces which is dominated by punjabis.

Muhajirs face some discrimination, but it's by virtue of being a small minority (Bengalis were the majority) and also cause Muhajirs are not indigenous, so ofcourse the natives will a bigger say.

Also the 'Punjabi' bashing makes no sense, it's Larkana screwing over Karachi not Lahore. Punjabis are not racist people, just ask any Urdu-speaker in Lahore, and how they've integreate compared to Sindh.

60% of the people live in Punjab, Punjabis are half the nations population, so by the laws of majority they will be prominent such as the Germans in EU or England in the UK or Californians in America.

As for the army, Punjabis have traditionally been in the army, and it's actually 3 districts, namely Jhelum,Chakwal and Attock where most of troops come from cause of tradition.

This Punjab-bashing is delusional, if you look at facts you wouldn't be bashing them instead be grateful to Punjabis for not enforcing their language on culture.

Once again, this is so irrelevant.

 

[Yossarian]

What gave the army the right commit those offences?

Who was held accountable for those actions?

Or the 90,000 of our army soliders who were help Captive by the Indian army once we surrendered.

They were returned stripped from their uniforms. Our uniform of our soldiers is in one of the museums of Delhi, is symbol of embarasssement and proof that our army soldiers were returned to their own country, after the agreement of the simla pact. But they were returned in their shorts.


So polish up on history before talking about the subtitlties of what has been taught to you and what reality was.
[MENTION=4930]Yossarian[/MENTION]

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You did'nt read or understand ... I'm not interested in what happened 45 years ago, in a place I've never been to, as long as it doesn't my life NOW. So you can rant all you like about those events .... but frankly speaking, what happened in Europe 70+ years ago has a far bigger affect on my life now that what is happened on the sub-continent 45+ years ago.

If I was to start ranting, raving and harping about historical events, as you are doing, in Pakistan/India, then the fact that my mother, at age less than a year old, and the rest of her family had to leave behind their homes, animals, lands and everything else they could not carry on their backs, at 20 minutes notice, in the middle of the night, because marauding mobs were on their way killing, raping and burning every Muslim in their path, and having to hide during the day and walk at night, for days on end, until the family reached Pakistan, is what I would rant and rave about - but I don't. That was the Partition - in case you don't know.

So yes, I know about historical events on the sub-continent - but unless they affect my life, and the lives of my family, at this moment in time, then I couldn't give a sh*t about Pakistan's internal politics.!!
Do you still want to rant and rave?

 

[waleed88]

Muhajirs face some discrimination, but it's by virtue of being a small minority (Bengalis were the majority) and also cause Muhajirs are not indigenous, so ofcourse the natives will a bigger say.

Also the 'Punjabi' bashing makes no sense, it's Larkana screwing over Karachi not Lahore. Punjabis are not racist people, just ask any Urdu-speaker in Lahore, and how they've integreate compared to Sindh.

60% of the people live in Punjab, Punjabis are half the nations population, so by the laws of majority they will be prominent such as the Germans in EU or England in the UK or Californians in America.

As for the army, Punjabis have traditionally been in the army, and it's actually 3 districts, namely Jhelum,Chakwal and Attock where most of troops come from cause of tradition.

This Punjab-bashing is delusional, if you look at facts you wouldn't be bashing them instead be grateful to Punjabis for not enforcing their language on culture.

Once again, this is so irrelevant.

Seems like we have 'Nooniye' on board.

'Us cleaner than thou' narrative is a very characteristic finding there.

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[waleed88]

Evidence of discrimination has always existed in Pakistan, Punjabis considering themselves superior race have tried to impose their culture and their brand of conservative Islam all over Pakistan.

Is the reason Rangers are operating in Karachi, but the Lashkar e Jhanvi and Laskhar e Taiba of Punjab is wholly untouched.

Is the reason all politicians are tried in courts for corruption except the ones in Punjab.

Is also the reason most of the army ex generals remain untried despite causing large amounts of corruption.

NAB'S LIST CONSIST OF 150 NAMES, MAJORITY OF THOSE EX ARMY GENERAL/ OFFICERS. AND THIS IS ONLY IN PUNJAB??

Pervez Musharraf owns billions of rupees worth of property, all distributed across the PML-Q with which he formed the alliance government.

Where did Musharraf get all this money from? Why hasn't he been tried for all the numerous offences he has committed? Why are all army generals and officers given a clean chit despite performing a coup' de' tat' with Musharraf??

Why is Nawaz Sharif given a clean chit to become a Prime Minister for the third time?

Yet Bhutto was hanged for a murder people weren't even sure he committed.

Answer is discrimination.

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[waleed88]

You did'nt read or understand ... I'm not interested in what happened 45 years ago, in a place I've never been to, as long as it doesn't my life NOW. So you can rant all you like about those events .... but frankly speaking, what happened in Europe 70+ years ago has a far bigger affect on my life now that what is happened on the sub-continent 45+ years ago.

If I was to start ranting, raving and harping about historical events, as you are doing, in Pakistan/India, then the fact that my mother, at age less than a year old, and the rest of her family had to leave behind their homes, animals, lands and everything else they could not carry on their backs, at 20 minutes notice, in the middle of the night, because marauding mobs were on their way killing, raping and burning every Muslim in their path, and having to hide during the day and walk at night, for days on end, until the family reached Pakistan, is what I would rant and rave about - but I don't. That was the Partition - in case you don't know.

So yes, I know about historical events on the sub-continent - but unless they affect my life, and the lives of my family, at this moment in time, then I couldn't give a sh*t about Pakistan's internal politics.!!
Do you still want to rant and rave?

Pure gibberish.

Please refrain from posting on such forums.

You should consider talking about the David Cameron Pig scandal. Because all this too much for you people to understand.

And like you said, its got nothing to do with you.

Cheers.

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[endymion248]

Seems like we have 'Nooniye' on board.

'Us cleaner than thou' narrative is a very characteristic finding there.

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And yet Muhajjirs, Kashmiris and Pathans are well integrated into Punjabi society while Karachi is rife with ethnic tensions.

It's always funny to see people from Karachi equate themselves with Balochistan and Bengladesh when they are just as privileged as north Punjabis, if not more.

 

[endymion248]

It's quite fallacious for people here to be talking about the quota system benefiting Waderas and not the common Sindhi when you guys are opposed to the very principle of quota system, not its execution. [MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION], for example, has made it clear in previous threads that he would also oppose a quota system used for poor Sindhis.

In the same way, the race card being played here is quite strange when the quota is location based.

Also, there is nothing discriminatory about the federal quotas since they merely give proportional quotas to each province. That doesn't mean there is no merit since a person has to compete inside their demographic and can't apply to several demographics at the same time, as opposed to Sindh's quota system.

 

[endymion248]

Evidence of discrimination has always existed in Pakistan, Punjabis considering themselves superior race have tried to impose their culture and their brand of conservative Islam all over Pakistan.

Is the reason Rangers are operating in Karachi, but the Lashkar e Jhanvi and Laskhar e Taiba of Punjab is wholly untouched.

Is the reason all politicians are tried in courts for corruption except the ones in Punjab.

Is also the reason most of the army ex generals remain untried despite causing large amounts of corruption.

NAB'S LIST CONSIST OF 150 NAMES, MAJORITY OF THOSE EX ARMY GENERAL/ OFFICERS. AND THIS IS ONLY IN PUNJAB??

Pervez Musharraf owns billions of rupees worth of property, all distributed across the PML-Q with which he formed the alliance government.

Where did Musharraf get all this money from? Why hasn't he been tried for all the numerous offences he has committed? Why are all army generals and officers given a clean chit despite performing a coup' de' tat' with Musharraf??

Why is Nawaz Sharif given a clean chit to become a Prime Minister for the third time?

Yet Bhutto was hanged for a murder people weren't even sure he committed.

Answer is discrimination.

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So, if Musharaff is brought to justice, MQM cries about discrimination against Muhajjirs. And if Karachi's own boy is spared, their sympathizers use it as a proof that there is discrimination against non-Punjabis. All one needs to know about these people's persecution complex, really.

By the way, both PPP and PTI have/had huge presence in Punjab. When BB died, it was punjabis who gave their blood with her (among who someone from my family). What sacrifice did you make for ZAB that you are now clamoring for justice?

 

[Deosai]

And yet Muhajjirs, Kashmiris and Pathans are well integrated into Punjabi society while Karachi is rife with ethnic tensions.

It's always funny to see people from Karachi equate themselves with Balochistan and Bengladesh when they are just as privileged as north Punjabis, if not more.

We're not more priveleged than north Punjabis; def more than Baloch but not Punjab, we don't even govern ourselves, get a measley share of the budget and have security

It's quite fallacious for people here to be talking about the quota system benefiting Waderas and not the common Sindhi when you guys are opposed to the very principle of quota system, not its execution. [MENTION=138463]Slog[/MENTION], for example, has made it clear in previous threads that he would also oppose a quota system used for poor Sindhis.

In the same way, the race card being played here is quite strange when the quota is location based.

Also, there is nothing discriminatory about the federal quotas since they merely give proportional quotas to each province. That doesn't mean there is no merit since a person has to compete inside their demographic and can't apply to several demographics at the same time, as opposed to Sindh's quota system.

Have you lived in Karachi? You can't speak if you haven't been in the shoes of a Karachiite.

Go to any govt office in Karachi, 90% of the employees (who are both corrupt and inept) will be from interior Sindh, you will hardly find an Urdu-speaker working for a public company even though Karachi is only 10% Sindhi! I've noticed this for long but didn't realize till now it stemmed from the quota system.

There should be no quota system except for some Baloch,FATAwals and people from Thar, but the rest should be merit based. Merit shouldn't be compromised for kumbaya.

 

[endymion248]

Not to mention that the Sharifs and the top brass in PML-N except Chaudry Nissar are not even ethnic Punjabis strictly speaking but Kashmiri "muhajirs". Tell me again how racist Punjab is.

 

[Deosai]

Seems like we have 'Nooniye' on board.

'Us cleaner than thou' narrative is a very characteristic finding there.

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I'm not a noonie, I voted for PTI tho can't be called a supporter of them anymore. I'm just not a blind racist like you, and I know a lot more about the rest of the country then you probably do, that's why I don't blame a single ethnicity for the problems in the country.

You need to get over that entitlement attitude.

 

[Deosai]

Not to mention that the Sharifs and the top brass in PML-N except Chaudry Nissar are not even ethnic Punjabis strictly speaking but Kashmiri "muhajirs". Tell me again how racist Punjab is.

He probably hasn't been to Punjab; tons of Urdu speakers live there and are politcally aligned with proper Punjabis now; this "muhajir" issue is only an urban Sindh problem.

 

[waleed88]

So, if Musharaff is brought to justice, MQM cries about discrimination against Muhajjirs. And if Karachi's own boy is spared, their sympathizers use it as a proof that there is discrimination against non-Punjabis. All one needs to know about these people's persecution complex, really.

By the way, both PPP and PTI have/had huge presence in Punjab. When BB died, it was punjabis who gave their blood with her (among who someone from my family). What sacrifice did you make for ZAB that you are now clamoring for justice?

Haha convenient you brought in the Musharraf is a muhajir card.

Why do you think Musharraf is not tried? Its got nothing to do with him being a Muhajjir or not. Oh no thay preference is only given to Punjabis.

His trial would lead to all the names along with him, which invovles all the military directly linked to overthrowing of the parliament.

This would mean by default, trial of all the army general politicians involved in the 5 martial laws that have taken place.

You think bureaucrats are innocent in all this? These are the same bureaucrats that when Bhutto was in power they started wearing shalwar kameez, the same bureaucrats that had a tasbeeh in their pockets when zia was in power, when BB came to power these people became liberal.
When Nawaz came into power they started appreciating siri paye.

Sirjee, 'is hamam mai saray nangay hain'

Pakistan has been given the definition of a negotiated state. Which is a probably a little better than term given of a 'failed state.'

If you want to hold people accountable for corruption and misgovernance, first give them the proper funds to run an institution.

In zia's era the country's 60% GDP went to the army.

In this era enter any cantonment board in pakistan, its clean, its organized. All cantonment boards have laptops. Why aren't the government insitutions like thag? Well its because most of our budget goes into developing the army.

Despite our current estimated GDP given to the army around 17%. Thanks to the loans taken from IMF and military loans from the US. All this still adds up to 35% of our GDP.

Such a country, with so many issues already, cannot afford an army this big. Sorry to say.

Pakistan is an occupied state held hostage by the army and a puppet government in place. First give the institutions the rights to perform instead of meddling in affairs of civilians.

Why do army have flood relief camps and heat stroke camps? Because they can afford it, the army is rich at the cost of the people. Nobody likes to be born corrupt. Its the system that breeds corruption.

A colonel army general that retires gets acres of Land in Islamabad, a post at the fauji foundation besides other perks of retirement.

As compared to an SSG police that retires with just a pension which is peanuts compared to that.

Yes there are perks of being an army, but over 5 martial laws old pakistan should realize army meddling in the state affairs it has no right in, not strengthing institutions has made Pakistan a corrupt country as a whole.



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[endymion248]

We're not more priveleged than north Punjabis; def more than Baloch but not Punjab, we don't even govern ourselves, get a measley share of the budget and have security

Maybe not over recent past (got PPP to thank for that) but definitely over Pakistan history. Although I'm not sure what you mean by governing ourself. Just about anyone has that complain in a democracy. Go to Punjab and people will be whining about Lahore and Sindhi waders ruining the country too.

Have you lived in Karachi? You can't speak if you haven't been in the shoes of a Karachiite.

Go to any govt office in Karachi, 90% of the employees (who are both corrupt and inept) will be from interior Sindh, you will hardly find an Urdu-speaker working for a public company even though Karachi is only 10% Sindhi! I've noticed this for long but didn't realize till now it stemmed from the quota system.

There should be no quota system except for some Baloch,FATAwals and people from Thar, but the rest should be merit based. Merit shouldn't be compromised for kumbaya.

I'm not talking about execution but principle. Are you against the principle that poor Sindhis are disadvantaged due to Urdu imperialism and lack of opportunities in rural areas and therefore deserve some form of quota (even if different than today's application of it)? You can't have it both ways, have all the opportunities and advantages and then not even admit that the other people are underprivileged.

 

[Deosai]

Evidence of discrimination has always existed in Pakistan, Punjabis considering themselves superior race have tried to impose their culture and their brand of conservative Islam all over Pakistan

That's BS.

Punjabis don't have that view, some do look down on Urdu-speakers racially, but some Urdu-speakers also think natives of Pakistan are primitive,uneducated and basically "rednecks".

Punjabis didn't impose their culture, we did, we imposed our language and Mughal-inspired culture on the natives; Deobandism was also imported from UP supplanting the Sufism followed in Punjab/Sindh for centuries.

Heck, many Urdu-speakers make fun of Punjabis/Sindhis for committing 'shirk' and worshipping shrines since Urdu-speakers are more orthodox.



Is the reason Rangers are operating in Karachi, but the Lashkar e Jhanvi and Laskhar e Taiba of Punjab is wholly untouched.

Is the reason all politicians are tried in courts for corruption except the ones in Punjab.

Is also the reason most of the army ex generals remain untried despite causing large amounts of corruption.

NAB'S LIST CONSIST OF 150 NAMES, MAJORITY OF THOSE EX ARMY GENERAL/ OFFICERS. AND THIS IS ONLY IN PUNJAB??

Pervez Musharraf owns billions of rupees worth of property, all distributed across the PML-Q with which he formed the alliance government.

Where did Musharraf get all this money from? Why hasn't he been tried for all the numerous offences he has committed? Why are all army generals and officers given a clean chit despite performing a coup' de' tat' with Musharraf??

Musharraf was good for Karachi, if they hang him you'll cry racism.

Why is Nawaz Sharif given a clean chit to become a Prime Minister for the third time?

Zardari got a clean chit too.

Yet Bhutto was hanged for a murder people weren't even sure he committed

.

It was us Karachiites that hated Bhutto, and were glad he was punished; It's Karachiites who mostly rooted for Jamaat-e-Islaami historically who helped bring in the coup.

Answer is discrimination.

Dude you should travel out of Lalukhet sometime and maybe stop listening to 9-zero propaganda

 

[waleed88]

In this country people think about their 'baradiri', the patronage system works for their own people, that ensures their vote bank. Hence they are elected in power again.

The same cycle will continue. If you want to hold politicians for the corruption they did, account the army generals and officers for the corruption as well. Don't harp about its not fair that this and this are corrupt. Everyone is corrupt. Hence the point we are at in Pakistan in 2015.

Operations should be across all parties and bureaucrats who have been involved in corruption. Not just one entity.

For those thinking I am an active worker for a political party, I am not. I am doctor from Dow Medical College. Studying for my board exams.

Just a regular student who has read up on politics and just doesnot like to idolize one party, or one insitution, or one person ( raheel sharif, imran Khan, bhutto).

The affairs of Pakistan leave me shocked as much as they do to you. And it pains me to see my country in this state.

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[Yossarian]

Pure gibberish.

Please refrain from posting on such forums.

And I suggest you stop ranting and raving like a demented lunatic, and stop lecturing me about events that happened 45+ years, in a place I've never been to, and I have no interest in.

As for David Cameron & co, I wish he would tell the MQM morons, their PTI, PPP and other counterparts, to get the f*** out of the UK and take their politics elsewhere. Decent British citizens, as well as decent Pakistanis who come here to study, do business, or simply visit relatives, don't need these political parties causing strife in Pakistan whilst their money-laundering, murderous thugs under the guise of being party leaders live safe cushy lives in Britain.

 

[Deosai]

Maybe not over recent past (got PPP to thank for that) but definitely over Pakistan history. Although I'm not sure what you mean by governing ourself. Just about anyone has that complain in a democracy. Go to Punjab and people will be whining about Lahore and Sindhi waders ruining the country too.




I'm not talking about execution but principle. Are you against the principle that poor Sindhis are disadvantaged due to Urdu imperialism and lack of opportunities in rural areas and therefore deserve some form of quota (even if different than today's application of it)? You can't have it both ways, have all the opportunities and advantages and then not even admit that the other people are underprivileged.

Urdu imperialism has been over in Khi since the 70s; Sindhi is the used in govt offices too, there are Sindhi medium schools and even Karachiites have to study Sindh in the local school system.

By governing ourselves, i mean there are is not Mayor, or municpal govt, we're being lorded over by Larkana. Lahore is still being developed and has improved over last 5 years drastically, Karachi has gone down in the same time cause at least PMLN owns Lahore but PPP doesn't care about Khi cause they don't have any seats from here (maybe only 1?).

 

[waleed88]

And I suggest you stop ranting and raving like a demented lunatic, and stop lecturing me about events that happened 45+ years, in a place I've never been to, and I have no interest in.

As for David Cameron & co, I wish he would tell the MQM morons, their PTI, PPP and other counterparts, to get the f*** out of the UK and take their politics elsewhere. Decent British citizens, as well as decent Pakistanis who come here to study, do business, or simply visit relatives, don't need these political parties causing strife in Pakistan whilst their money-laundering, murderous thugs under the guise of being party leaders live safe cushy lives in Britain.

Oh please save me the horror.

Your country is the reason these thugs still have some refuge.

Enjoying the money laundered money to pay for their taxes doesnot bother them.

Cry me a river.

Hypocrisy level 9999.

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[endymion248]

Urdu imperialism has been over in Khi since the 70s; Sindhi is the used in govt offices too, there are Sindhi medium schools and even Karachiites have to study Sindh in the local school system.

So how many persons have their education entirely in Sindhi and then don't have to use Urdu once they enter the job? A majority or a minority? If it's it's a majority, disregard what I said since it seems the problem corrected itself in Sindh without the need to desacralize Urdu from a constitutional perspective.

By governing ourselves, i mean there are is not Mayor, or municpal govt, we're being lorded over by Larkana. Lahore is still being developed and has improved over last 5 years drastically, Karachi has gone down in the same time cause at least PMLN owns Lahore but PPP doesn't care about Khi cause they don't have any seats from here (maybe only 1?).

That is true but isn't that going to change soon? And Karachi did have rapid growth under Musharaf while Lahore stagnated so I don't think it will take long for Karachi to catch up now.

 

[endymion248]

Haha convenient you brought in the Musharraf is a muhajir card.

Why do you think Musharraf is not tried? Its got nothing to do with him being a Muhajjir or not. Oh no thay preference is only given to Punjabis.

His trial would lead to all the names along with him, which invovles all the military directly linked to overthrowing of the parliament.

This would mean by default, trial of all the army general politicians involved in the 5 martial laws that have taken place.

You think bureaucrats are innocent in all this? These are the same bureaucrats that when Bhutto was in power they started wearing shalwar kameez, the same bureaucrats that had a tasbeeh in their pockets when zia was in power, when BB came to power these people became liberal.
When Nawaz came into power they started appreciating siri paye.

Sirjee, 'is hamam mai saray nangay hain'

Pakistan has been given the definition of a negotiated state. Which is a probably a little better than term given of a 'failed state.'

If you want to hold people accountable for corruption and misgovernance, first give them the proper funds to run an institution.

In zia's era the country's 60% GDP went to the army.

In this era enter any cantonment board in pakistan, its clean, its organized. All cantonment boards have laptops. Why aren't the government insitutions like thag? Well its because most of our budget goes into developing the army.

Despite our current estimated GDP given to the army around 17%. Thanks to the loans taken from IMF and military loans from the US. All this still adds up to 35% of our GDP.

Such a country, with so many issues already, cannot afford an army this big. Sorry to say.

Pakistan is an occupied state held hostage by the army and a puppet government in place. First give the institutions the rights to perform instead of meddling in affairs of civilians.

Why do army have flood relief camps and heat stroke camps? Because they can afford it, the army is rich at the cost of the people. Nobody likes to be born corrupt. Its the system that breeds corruption.

A colonel army general that retires gets acres of Land in Islamabad, a post at the fauji foundation besides other perks of retirement.

As compared to an SSG police that retires with just a pension which is peanuts compared to that.

Yes there are perks of being an army, but over 5 martial laws old pakistan should realize army meddling in the state affairs it has no right in, not strengthing institutions has made Pakistan a corrupt country as a whole.



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I disn't bring in the Musharaf is a Muhajjir card, it's MQM that did when he was being tried according to your wishes.

As for the rest of your post, I agree that Pakistan is an army with a state, not a state with an army, but not sure how that is relevant in this discussion.

 

[Deosai]

So how many persons have their education entirely in Sindhi and then don't have to use Urdu once they enter the job? A majority or a minority? If it's it's a majority, disregard what I said since it seems the problem corrected itself in Sindh without the need to desacralize Urdu from a constitutional perspective.



That is true but isn't that going to change soon? And Karachi did have rapid growth under Musharaf while Lahore stagnated so I don't think it will take long for Karachi to catch up now.

A large number of schools in interior sindh teach in Sindhi, and many Sindhis are fluent in Urdu so it's not a big disadvantage like what some might think. In the job they use mostly English, maybe some Urdu and Sindhi, but it's mostly English and since govt offices are dominated by Sindhis, they just speak to eachother in their own language.

Musharraf was a one off thing, don't see things changing

 

[Yossarian]

Oh please save me the horror.

Your country is the reason these thugs still have some refuge.

And that's why I want them kicked out of Britain - and take their politics with them.

Incidentally, my understanding is that the Mohajirs are those who, or their forefathers, migrated from regions of India during the Partition, and mainly settled in and around Karachi. The maternal side of my family, and hundreds of thousands of others, were also refugee's who left India during the Partition and settled in Punjab. How come they don't rant and rave like the Mohajirs of Karachi?

 

[endymion248]

A large number of schools in interior sindh teach in Sindhi, and many Sindhis are fluent in Urdu so it's not a big disadvantage like what some might think. In the job they use mostly English, maybe some Urdu and Sindhi, but it's mostly English and since govt offices are dominated by Sindhis, they just speak to eachother in their own language.

Musharraf was a one off thing, don't see things changing

I think you underestimate the disadvantage that comes with having to learn a foreign language. They may be fluent but that required time and attention. Seems like a clear arbitrary disadvantage that warrants being taken into account.

 

[Deosai]

And that's why I want them kicked out of Britain - and take their politics with them.

Incidentally, my understanding is that the Mohajirs are those who, or their forefathers, migrated from regions of India during the Partition, and mainly settled in and around Karachi. The maternal side of my family, and hundreds of thousands of others, were also refugee's who left India during the Partition and settled in Punjab. How come they don't rant and rave like the Mohajirs of Karachi?

because they aren't affected by a discriminatory quota system nor were there businesses snatched under pseudo-socialism, also Punjabi nationalism is non-existent compared to Sindhi nationalism which is strong.

 

[Deosai]

I think you underestimate the disadvantage that comes with having to learn a foreign language. They may be fluent but that required time and attention. Seems like a clear arbitrary disadvantage that warrants being taken into account.

We all have to learn English, i don't see how we have advantage in that regard. The waderas should just stop making excuses for their inability to learn and work hard

 

[endymion248]

Oh please save me the horror.

Your country is the reason these thugs still have some refuge.

Enjoying the money laundered money to pay for their taxes doesnot bother them.

Cry me a river.

Hypocrisy level 9999.

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True. The English love to prosper with blood money of criminals and murderers (especially Russians and Arabs) and then they act holier than thou like they are actually suffering from it. The perfide Albion indeed.

 

[endymion248]

We all have to learn English, i don't see how we have advantage in that regard. The waderas should just stop making excuses for their inability to learn and work hard

But they have to learn English AND Urdu. And I'm not talking about the waderas but the common Sindhi.

 

[Deosai]

But they have to learn English AND Urdu. And I'm not talking about the waderas but the common Sindhi.

Common Sindhis know urdu very well. It's been the national language for 70 years and long before that the Brits introduced it, so i don't buy this argument.

Also only 3% of Sindhi Musalmans knew how to read their own Sindhi script during colonial rule, only the Hindus were more educated and had a higher literacy rate of Sindhi (despite it being written in arabic)

 

[endymion248]

Common Sindhis know urdu very well. It's been the national language for 70 years and long before that the Brits introduced it, so i don't buy this argument.

Also only 3% of Sindhi Musalmans knew how to read their own Sindhi script during colonial rule, only the Hindus were more educated and had a higher literacy rate of Sindhi (despite it being written in arabic)

Seems like Urdu imperialism did its job then. Too late to reverse now, probably.

How do they learn it btw?

 

[Deosai]

Seems like Urdu imperialism did its job then. Too late to reverse now, probably.

How do they learn it btw?

It's not imperialism, it's just Urduization. It's like how Napeloeon unified all of France's different ethnicities/regions together and imposed the Norman language as the national language. We're basically the Normans of Pakistan. Deal with it.

 

[Deosai]

How do they learn it btw?

It's easy, they just pick it up speaking with us in Urdu, or watching TV which is mostly in Urdu, or they watch Bollywood which is also in Hindi/Urdu. They also have to learn it starting in pre-school, we've systemized the indoctrination process, it's going smoothly so far.

 

[endymion248]

It's not imperialism, it's just Urduization. It's like how Napeloeon unified all of France's different ethnicities/regions together and imposed the Norman language as the national language. We're basically the Normans of Pakistan. Deal with it.

That's just an euphemism for "We imposed our language on everyone else".

By the way, the difference is that French is an independent language while Urdu's authors like to flock towards Farsi when they need to express a complex idea