In defence of Western values

[Junaids]

The "Russia invades Ukraine" thread has been hijacked by people trying to settle colonial scores by arguing that the west is in decline while Russia and China outperform them. And extreme-right supporters of authoritarian government blame "Liberals" for this.

I disagree.

A liberal is generally defined by several features:

1. A willingness to respect opinions and behaviours different to one's own, notably:
- support of individual rights and freedom of expression.
- support for individual liberty, free trade and social development and reform.

2. Recognition of the primacy of science and learning over traditional or religious dogma.

3. Recognition that the law must always reflect the will of the people, not the dogma of a single political party or religion.

Who subscribes to this?
By my reckoning, over 95% of voters in Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the UK share these values in 2022.

All major political parties accept this as the framework of our society, whether those parties are on the left or the right.

The same is not true in the US, where the far-right has taken over the Republican Party, and where a fundamentalist Christian strain of Republicanism has taken over the senate representation of the barely-populated flyover states.

The same is also not true of mainland Europe any more. In Spain, the Castillians used the Police as a gestapo to beat up old ladies voting in the Catalan independence referendum, and so-called crimes like sedition shame the entire nation.

Hungary has a far-right strongman, and Italy and France have fallen dangerously under the thrall of far-right yobbo politicians.

Have western countries somehow fallen behind?
I dispute the premise that the west is being overtaken by Russia and China.

Unlike them, we have voluntarily given up our Asian empires because we recognise that imperialism is wrong. That's not weakness - that's being honourable.

Our citizens live longer, get a quality free education, get universal free healthcare from the cradle to the grave, work in safe conditions for safe hours for a decent salary. The most humble people get a minimum of 4 weeks paid annual leave per year. We have freedom of speech and freedom of religion.

We don't spy on our Muslim citizens and destroy their mosques. We don't assassinate or imprison people opposing our governments.

Intervention in foreign lands
I suspect that this is where I will enrage people.

We are brought up in a society in which everyone has freedom of speech and freedom of expression. In which nobody gets to force their religion onto others. And where the Police will enforce this.

And frankly, when others are subjugated and deprived of their basic liberties, to me there has to be a point at which more enlightened societies intervene just as we would expect the Police to here.

We cannot be the Police for every country under a tinpot dictator. But when you have a government which is sheer evil, like the Taliban, I think we were several years too late in waiting until 2001 to remove them.

Obviously you need to have some kind of threshold for such intervention. For me, the Taliban far exceeds it, whereas Israel, for example, does not given that its Arab citizens enjoy a higher level of democracy, freedom, education, healthcare and wealth than Arabs in any other Arab country.

Would I have invaded Iraq? Certainly not.

Would I have invaded Afghanistan, or supported South Vietnam against North Vietnam, or South Korea against the communists? Definitely.

I accept that there is a certain contradiction in the fact that I happily support the USA as the Leader of the Free World even though it actually is not as liberal as Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the UK or the EU.

But they have the military oomph, and they have overwhelmingly been a force for good in the world since 1917. And the coastal Americans are mainly liberals like us, and the flyover state Americans may be more conservative but are honest and decent people whom I am proud to have as a friend and ally.

In the 1930s the United Kingdom had an Empire, but failed to develop its subjects not merely overseas but at home too. Poverty was endemic in the UK as it was in the Empire. My grandparents in Dacca in the 1930s had a higher quality of life than my other grandparents in West Yorkshire.

I don't mourn a lost Empire, or feel that the UK, Australia, Canada and New Zealand are in decline. On the contrary, I celebrate the fact that we have given up on "power" in favour of giving our citizens a truly superb quality of life.

Australia has the same size economy as Russia.

But we - with 1/6 of their population - spend twice as much on education, three times as much on healthcare and ten times as much on old age pensions.

So I will celebrate liberal western values every single time, with gratitude and with pride.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

This seems to be more of a defence of British values rather than western. If you don't live in Britain, then your views are disconnected.

 

[Robert]

Good post [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION].

“Western values” encompass several narratives however.

The liberalism of Voltaire, Franklin, Locke, Mill, Jefferson is one such narrative - a philosophy which is responsibility for the most profound rise in personal liberty for the most people in the history of our species.

Then there is Enlightenment - which ended the dark years of European cultural domination by the priesthood and ushered in an era of empiricism and scientific marvels.

There’s also white supremacy - which elevates whiteness as the ideal and brought about colonialism and the Atlantic Passage slave trade, leading to centuries of pain for untold millions. Fortunately that value has been in decline for about the last two years, though vestiges remain.

Then Western Christianity, whose adherents are told to prosyletise as a matter of urgency. This value combined with white supremacy and capitalism to bring about Europe’s assault on the world in the colonial era. While the religion’s central tenets are love and forgiveness, the requirement to prosyletise synergised with the need to expand and dominate in a bad way,

So some good values and some bad.

Putin says liberalism has run its course. That suits him because it impedes his goal to reinstate Russia as a global neo-colonial superpower with him as Tsar.

Russia will be reduced to a China vassal in fifty years. China is the coming power. They have proved that a state does not need liberalism to have a good standard of living for its citizens. China says democracy is pointless as it produces bad outcomes such as Brexit and Trump. Just don’t criticise the state in any way, don’t let your religion oppose the state, and you will be fine. I think many on this board would prefer such a system.

Now Europe has to get into a huddle, mutually supporting its nations to resist the tide of totalitarianism coming from the Far East. The vehicle for this is the EU. UK should rejoin the huddle soon before it gets picked off - which of course is part of Putin’s plan in seeing an opportunity to weaken the West by nudging Brexit. He is a clever man who looks far ahead, and his oligarch money has been crucial in compromising British politicians.

Australasia should ally with North America to form a Pacific economic and military alliance against China.

 

[Junaids]

This seems to be more of a defence of British values rather than western. If you don't live in Britain, then your views are disconnected.

Funny that you should say that.

I remember that [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] was surprised that I - a very centrist Tory - supported Brexit.

But I actually believe that the Commonwealth should be an organisation of states with a shared heritage and culture.

If you are in the former British Caribbean and you sit exams at age 16 (Fifth year/Year 11) you sit CSEC exams which are basically GCSEs.

If you are in the final year of school you sit CAPE exams, which are basically A Levels.

I supported Brexit because I think that if the UK - or Canada - has room for qualified immigrants we should be taking our Commonwealth cousins first, not Lithuanians or Poles.

And I feel that Australia and New Zealand should be taking people from Samoa or Fiji in exactly the same way.

We have a shared heritage and a shared culture.

But separately, the things I listed in the main post apply equally to people from California or Hawaii or Massachusetts or Rhode Island or Vermont or New Hampshire or Delaware or DC.

Those Americans are just as liberal as we are.

 

[Junaids]

Australasia should ally with North America to form a Pacific economic and military alliance against China.

We have gone a step beyond that and got into bed with you too - that's what AUKUS is.

Everyone is focusing on the Australian submarine contract and is failing to see that this is a much bigger security pact than that, and much more significant than NATO too.

Well, China has certainly noticed, Which really was the point.

In terms of an economic power block, well we have that too.

Trump pulled the USA out of the Trans-Pacific Partnership which evolved then into CPTPP with nations as diverse as not just the Commonwealth nations of Australia, Brunei, Malaysia, New Zealand, Singapore and Canada but also Chile, Mexico and Japan.

It's a matter of time before the USA joins up, and it will dwarf the Chinese economy. And without its nations having to sign up to China's Ball and Chain program.

The UK is in the Accession phase (Pitcairn gives it Pacific membership rights, would you believe it) while Australia and Canada are vetoing China's application for membership.

 

[Robert]

We have gone a step beyond that and got into bed with you too - that's what AUKUS is.

Everyone is focusing on the Australian submarine contract and is failing to see that this is a much bigger security pact than that, and much more significant than NATO too.

Well, China has certainly noticed, Which really was the point.

In terms of an economic power block, well we have that too.

Trump pulled the USA out of the Trans-Pacific Partnership which evolved then into CPTPP with nations as diverse as not just the Commonwealth nations of Australia, Brunei, Malaysia, New Zealand, Singapore and Canada but also Chile, Mexico and Japan.

It's a matter of time before the USA joins up, and it will dwarf the Chinese economy. And without its nations having to sign up to China's Ball and Chain program.

The UK is in the Accession phase (Pitcairn gives it Pacific membership rights, would you believe it) while Australia and Canada are vetoing China's application for membership.

In my opinion UK has no business in the Pacific. Global Britain is a Brexiteer fantasy based on dreams of Empire. UK should be fortifying Europe against Putin. I’m unsure what one RN CVA group will do to intimidate China should they try to seize Taiwan.

The democracies Australia, NZ, USA and China should be the Pacific alliance.

 

[Robert]

Funny that you should say that.

I remember that [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] was surprised that I - a very centrist Tory - supported Brexit.

But I actually believe that the Commonwealth should be an organisation of states with a shared heritage and culture.

If you are in the former British Caribbean and you sit exams at age 16 (Fifth year/Year 11) you sit CSEC exams which are basically GCSEs.

If you are in the final year of school you sit CAPE exams, which are basically A Levels.

I supported Brexit because I think that if the UK - or Canada - has room for qualified immigrants we should be taking our Commonwealth cousins first, not Lithuanians or Poles.

And I feel that Australia and New Zealand should be taking people from Samoa or Fiji in exactly the same way.

We have a shared heritage and a shared culture.

But separately, the things I listed in the main post apply equally to people from California or Hawaii or Massachusetts or Rhode Island or Vermont or New Hampshire or Delaware or DC.

Those Americans are just as liberal as we are.

I think the Commonwealth is a relic. More and more Caribbean nations have dumped the Queen as their head of state and I find it anachronistic that Australia retains her. The nations are far away from GB and could do little to support us if we get into it with Putin. If they even wanted to. India is about to surpass UK in GDP terms and have always been more aligned with Moscow than London or Washington.

Brexit, for most Britons who voted for it, was about giving the government of the day a bloody nose, based on false beliefs about the role of Brussels, and some nonsense dream of Empire 2.0.

 

[Robert]

The democracies Australia, NZ, USA and China should be the Pacific alliance.

Oops, meant Japan not China obvo.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Funny that you should say that.

I remember that [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] was surprised that I - a very centrist Tory - supported Brexit.

But I actually believe that the Commonwealth should be an organisation of states with a shared heritage and culture.

If you are in the former British Caribbean and you sit exams at age 16 (Fifth year/Year 11) you sit CSEC exams which are basically GCSEs.

If you are in the final year of school you sit CAPE exams, which are basically A Levels.

I supported Brexit because I think that if the UK - or Canada - has room for qualified immigrants we should be taking our Commonwealth cousins first, not Lithuanians or Poles.

And I feel that Australia and New Zealand should be taking people from Samoa or Fiji in exactly the same way.

We have a shared heritage and a shared culture.

But separately, the things I listed in the main post apply equally to people from California or Hawaii or Massachusetts or Rhode Island or Vermont or New Hampshire or Delaware or DC.

Those Americans are just as liberal as we are.

I agree, the British language means we rule the world with soft power as well as hard. We really are a magnificent race. Intellectually and physically.

 

[Abel Reames]

I agree, the British language means we rule the world with soft power as well as hard. We really are a magnificent race. Intellectually and physically.

As were many races before us and will be after us. All empires crumble. Each has their day in the sun.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

British colonialism was a good thing for Pakistan it if it allowed this to be recognised.

I mean, there wouldn't be cricket.

But Brexit was a terrible thing as we were a part of Europe, free movement, kept the pound, now chickens coming home to roost

 

[Junaids]

I agree, the British language means we rule the world with soft power as well as hard. We really are a magnificent race. Intellectually and physically.

I assume that you are being ironic here!

I don't believe that there is any racial superiority angle to this. To me there is no difference between Sadiq Khan as Labour Mayor of London or Andy Burnham as Labour Mayor of Manchester.

But it is a fact that we gave the world its global language and that the Commonwealth is a much more powerful body than anybody seems to recognise.

And going back to [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION]'s comments about the UK's role being just in Europe, I respectfully disagree.

The end of "Neighbours" last week really showcased that the relationship between the UK and Australia is incredibly deep culturally, but more importantly is bilateral. Since this is PakPassion, let me remind people that the legendary Brian Johnston refused to commentate between 135 and 2 pm and 535 and 6 pm on weekdays because he absolutely had to know what was going on in Ramsay Street.

As we all know, China has been found by the Permanent Court of Arbitration at The Hague's Tribunal to have no claim to the islands in the South China Sea that it has reclaimed from coral reefs, fortified and occupied even though they are the sovereign territory of Malaysia, Brunei, the Philippines and Vietnam.

The UK, USA and Australia conduct vitally important Freedom of Movement journeys through the area with the support of the actual sovereign owners of the waters, but against China's will.

The Royal Navy is still the second most powerful navy in the world after the US Navy and that will not change in our lifetime. It can perform this vital role that the sovereign powers are not strong enough to do themselves.

Believe me, the ASEAN nations apart from Myanmar and possibly Indonesia are delighted that the UK remains engaged in the South China Sea and Western Pacific.

 

[Junaids]

As were many races before us and will be after us. All empires crumble. Each has their day in the sun.

The point of my original post was that the UK is much more valuable to the world as a cultural and social power spreading liberal values than it ever was an Imperial power.

I don't see any value in Indians and Pakistanis being under British sovereignty. But if they can embrace our social values and enlightenment I see that as a real positive. I see nothing positive about living under the BJP or in an Islamic Republic (or a country with Christianity as a state religion).

One of the best things about the Ukraine is that the previous dalliance with far-right and ultranationalist forces has been replaced by liberal Europeanism.

 

[Technics 1210]

Liberalism : We believe and respect the opinions, values, and way of life of others.
Reality : We will bomb the crap out of you if you do not adopt our values

Liberalism : We believe in secularism; the separation of state and religion.
Reality : Our leaders are doing God’s work underpinned by the Judeo-Christian alliance funded and directed by Zionists.

Liberalism : We believe in democracy, and respect the will of the people.
Reality : We will try to overturn and invalidate any democratic result that does not conform to our agenda.

Liberalism : We believe in free speech and freedom of expression.
Reality : You can say what you want but Isreal/Zionism is off limits. As a bonus we will delete posts from Social Media that do not conform to our agenda, and then ban you.

Liberalism : We do not judge or force our views, we are open to new ideas.
Reality : You are a racist for not taking the knee, and we will teach children that there is no difference between man and woman, you can choose your gender.

Liberalism : Materialism is the sub-evil of capitalism.
Reality : We have more iPhones, Laptops, iPads, Cars, Houses, than the rest of you - we are so rich!

Liberalism : We believe in your freedoms.
Reality : We will monitor and record every call, message, email, post, financial transaction, location, website you will ever visit.

Liberalism : We believe freedom is the answer.
Reality : What is the solution to xyz problem? Time to pull out the Liberal Label Bingo-card:

Racism
Fascism
Xenophobic
Homophobic
Transphobic
Anti-Semite
Government’s fault

 

[Robert]

I assume that you are being ironic here!

I don't believe that there is any racial superiority angle to this. To me there is no difference between Sadiq Khan as Labour Mayor of London or Andy Burnham as Labour Mayor of Manchester.

But it is a fact that we gave the world its global language and that the Commonwealth is a much more powerful body than anybody seems to recognise.

And going back to [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION]'s comments about the UK's role being just in Europe, I respectfully disagree.

The end of "Neighbours" last week really showcased that the relationship between the UK and Australia is incredibly deep culturally, but more importantly is bilateral. Since this is PakPassion, let me remind people that the legendary Brian Johnston refused to commentate between 135 and 2 pm and 535 and 6 pm on weekdays because he absolutely had to know what was going on in Ramsay Street.

As we all know, China has been found by the Permanent Court of Arbitration at The Hague's Tribunal to have no claim to the islands in the South China Sea that it has reclaimed from coral reefs, fortified and occupied even though they are the sovereign territory of Malaysia, Brunei, the Philippines and Vietnam.

The UK, USA and Australia conduct vitally important Freedom of Movement journeys through the area with the support of the actual sovereign owners of the waters, but against China's will.

The Royal Navy is still the second most powerful navy in the world after the US Navy and that will not change in our lifetime. It can perform this vital role that the sovereign powers are not strong enough to do themselves.

Believe me, the ASEAN nations apart from Myanmar and possibly Indonesia are delighted that the UK remains engaged in the South China Sea and Western Pacific.

I'm sure they are, but what does Britain gain from the arrangement?

It seems to me that now we have these two CVAs (commissioned during the long-gone Blair interventionist years) we think we rule the waves again, and are sailing one around the South China Sea, upsetting a superpower we don't need to antagonise, when both carrier groups should be ranged against Putin in the North Atlantic to deter further aggression.

Other than the four Vanguard SSBNs we have just five SSNs, six DDs, eleven frigates and a bunch of patrol boats. Our job in NATO is to patrol the North Atlantic and neutralise Russian submarines and surface threats.

Nobody has watched Neighbours in UK in twenty years.

 

[Junaids]

I'm sure they are, but what does Britain gain from the arrangement?

It seems to me that now we have these two CVAs (commissioned during the long-gone Blair interventionist years) we think we rule the waves again, and are sailing one around the South China Sea, upsetting a superpower we don't need to antagonise, when both carrier groups should be ranged against Putin in the North Atlantic to deter further aggression.

Other than the four Vanguard SSBNs we have just five SSNs, six DDs, eleven frigates and a bunch of patrol boats. Our job in NATO is to patrol the North Atlantic and neutralise Russian submarines and surface threats.

Nobody has watched Neighbours in UK in twenty years.

Actually the UK has historic responsibilities in Hong Kong until 2047 - it’s the 1984 Sino-British Agreement. You may not want us to challenge China when they breach their legal undertakings, for example with their unlawful national security law, but Maggie signed us up to it almost four decades ago.

And to be fair, Boris has been superb on the issue.

Oh, I didn’t watch Neighbours for twenty years either until a month ago. And it turns out that whereas no other Channel 5 show gets even 5% viewer share in any time slot, Neighbours has consistently managed triple that. But CBS owns both UK Channel 5 and Australian Channel 10, and concocted a funding story when the reality is that the plebs can’t be permitted to watch what they want.

 

[Technics 1210]

Honourable mentions:

Liberalism : We believe in humanity, equality of all mankind, protection of all mankind, progression of all mankind.
Reality : We believe our values only apply to the West, 750 Million citizens protected by NATO.

Liberalism : You have the right to form your own opnion. We respect your right to an opinion.
Reality : If you do not subscribe to our agenda, and agree with MSM narrative, leave our country.

Liberalism : You have the natural right to free thought, free thinking, critical thinking.
Reality : You will be sent to prison just for thinking/denying the Holocaust doesn't add up.

Liberalism : We do not believe in the state controlling its citizens; this is akin to Dictatorship, Totalitarianism, Communism, and Authoritarianism.
Reality : The state will force children to learn about Transgenderism and Homosexuality, with extra classes on how to choose your gender.

 

[Robert]

Actually the UK has historic responsibilities in Hong Kong until 2047 - it’s the 1984 Sino-British Agreement. You may not want us to challenge China when they breach their legal undertakings, for example with their unlawful national security law, but Maggie signed us up to it almost four decades ago.

I don't really see what the RN can do. China broke the treaty and there is little we can do about it, except offer the Hong Kongers UK citizenship. Goodness knows we could use their medical staff.

 

[Technics 1210]

Freedom, Democracy, and Liberalism - so called values of the West - are the very definition of CHAOS. Unfettered freedom, without law (freedom of Speech in Amreeka is a good example). These liberals cry when they see the rise of right-wing ideologies, yet in Amreeka one is free ​to chant Nazi slogans, and wave the flag of Swatsika. Welcome to Chaos.

God created the universe, and order in the unverse stems from laws, but there are no laws that reign in the sheer stupidity of Liberalism. Chaos is the reason why Liberals are inconsistent and hypocritical in their views. Chaos is the reason why a Liberal party is a failure in politics. On one hand liberals will claim women parading themselves as sexual objects is the mark of freedom and women's right, the next, the Burka must be banned.

Society progresses through law and order, Russia and China are great examples, ME too (before the West intervened), humans need to be disciplined, because democracy is the complete opposite, which is why society in the West has failed - total freedom is total chaos.

As such western values are counter productive - you only have to see the latest stunt from Liberals - there is no biological difference between man and woman - this is the latest liberal battle cry.

 

[Markhor]

I believe in democratic values, that everyone regardless of race, gender or religion ought to have an equal say in the running of their country, and for continually striving to expand peoples' opportunities to make a better life. I don't know if these are exclusively western values.

However I do not believe in imposing these values by force on countries that do not have these democratic traditions, i.e. Afghanistan, and it's up to the people to fight for those rights.

Nor do I think it right that these values are used as cover for ulterior motives.

 

[Robert]

I believe in democratic values, that everyone regardless of race, gender or religion ought to have an equal say in the running of their country, and for continually striving to expand peoples' opportunities to make a better life. I don't know if these are exclusively western values.

However I do not believe in imposing these values by force on countries that do not have these democratic traditions, i.e. Afghanistan, and it's up to the people to fight for those rights.

Nor do I think it right that these values are used as cover for ulterior motives.

Consider all the women who benefited from imposition of those values [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] and who are now chattel again. Was it proper that the people defended their right to oppress half the population?

 

[Markhor]

Consider all the women who benefited from imposition of those values [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] and who are now chattel again. Was it proper that the people defended their right to oppress half the population?

Robert I abhor the Taliban's grotesquely medieval and narrow interpretation of Islam. However our view of a woman's role in society as being free to hold down professional jobs, independently pursue education and enjoy full personal liberty is as alien to many Afghans as their views are to ours.

Afghanistan is a largely tribal society and their rural areas are virtually cut off from the outside world with very little means of modern communication. It cannot make sense to impose by the barrel of a gun these western notions of gender equality on a set of people who've little conception of them.

Besides, the west's publicly stated original intention in Afghanistan was to destroy Al-Qaeda, not the export of liberal democracy and educating Afghan women. The latter eventually became cover to justify prolonging a failing war where only defence contractors and corrupt warlords gained while causing misery to countless Afghans.

It's a massive tragedy in retrospect because the US had the world's sympathy after 9/11. Even George Galloway said he would've supported a police-style raid on Tora Bora to capture Bin Laden. Instead what pursued were two wars costing trillions, countless deaths, massive refugee outflows (reviving far-right nationalism) and a frittering away of all that goodwill, as well as severely undermining these western democratic values we both genuinely hold. People can blast Biden for various reasons but thank God he pulled the plug on this madness. Unfortunately he's paid the price politically from a US media that has an unhealthy obsession with bombastic American militarism.

Look the Afghans must go through the same process most democratic nations have. The Americans and French had their Revolutions. Black Americans laid down their lives in the Civil Rights Movement. Britain had its Civil Wars and political movements such as the Chartists, the Levellers, the Suffragettes etc who helped create the freedoms we take for granted now. Change must come from within, not from outsiders.

 

[Robert]

Robert I abhor the Taliban's grotesquely medieval and narrow interpretation of Islam. However our view of a woman's role in society as being free to hold down professional jobs, independently pursue education and enjoy full personal liberty is as alien to many Afghans as their views are to ours.

Afghanistan is a largely tribal society and their rural areas are virtually cut off from the outside world with very little means of modern communication. It cannot make sense to impose by the barrel of a gun these western notions of gender equality on a set of people who've little conception of them.

Besides, the west's publicly stated original intention in Afghanistan was to destroy Al-Qaeda, not the export of liberal democracy and educating Afghan women. The latter eventually became cover to justify prolonging a failing war where only defence contractors and corrupt warlords gained while causing misery to countless Afghans.

It's a massive tragedy in retrospect because the US had the world's sympathy after 9/11. Even George Galloway said he would've supported a police-style raid on Tora Bora to capture Bin Laden. Instead what pursued were two wars costing trillions, countless deaths, massive refugee outflows (reviving far-right nationalism) and a frittering away of all that goodwill, as well as severely undermining these western democratic values we both genuinely hold. People can blast Biden for various reasons but thank God he pulled the plug on this madness. Unfortunately he's paid the price politically from a US media that has an unhealthy obsession with bombastic American militarism.

Look the Afghans must go through the same process most democratic nations have. The Americans and French had their Revolutions. Black Americans laid down their lives in the Civil Rights Movement. Britain had its Civil Wars and political movements such as the Chartists, the Levellers, the Suffragettes etc who helped create the freedoms we take for granted now. Change must come from within, not from outsiders.

While I don’t disagree with much you say here [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION] - try telling it to the women of Afghanistan. The arms dealers and warlords gained, but the women gained too.

ISAF’s purpose was to build up the Afghan defence forces and police so that the Taliban couldn’t come back. Not to educate women. That came from within Afghanistan.

I disagree that Afghanistan has no tradition of women’s suffrage. The 1970s Republic of Afghanistan and later Democratic Republic of Afghanistan saw millions of Afghan women and girls attend school and college, applying socialism and de-Islamisation. Only after the Soviets pulled out of their war, and the Taliban took over in 1996 did the current dark age begin.

 

[Champ_Pal]

Robert I abhor the Taliban's grotesquely medieval and narrow interpretation of Islam. However our view of a woman's role in society as being free to hold down professional jobs, independently pursue education and enjoy full personal liberty is as alien to many Afghans as their views are to ours.

Afghanistan is a largely tribal society and their rural areas are virtually cut off from the outside world with very little means of modern communication. It cannot make sense to impose by the barrel of a gun these western notions of gender equality on a set of people who've little conception of them.

Besides, the west's publicly stated original intention in Afghanistan was to destroy Al-Qaeda, not the export of liberal democracy and educating Afghan women. The latter eventually became cover to justify prolonging a failing war where only defence contractors and corrupt warlords gained while causing misery to countless Afghans.

It's a massive tragedy in retrospect because the US had the world's sympathy after 9/11. Even George Galloway said he would've supported a police-style raid on Tora Bora to capture Bin Laden. Instead what pursued were two wars costing trillions, countless deaths, massive refugee outflows (reviving far-right nationalism) and a frittering away of all that goodwill, as well as severely undermining these western democratic values we both genuinely hold. People can blast Biden for various reasons but thank God he pulled the plug on this madness. Unfortunately he's paid the price politically from a US media that has an unhealthy obsession with bombastic American militarism.

Look the Afghans must go through the same process most democratic nations have. The Americans and French had their Revolutions. Black Americans laid down their lives in the Civil Rights Movement. Britain had its Civil Wars and political movements such as the Chartists, the Levellers, the Suffragettes etc who helped create the freedoms we take for granted now. Change must come from within, not from outsiders.

You can say the same to Middle Eastern countries too. Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Bahrain, Yemen are all in the same boat as Afghanistan when it comes to women's rights and freedom to be their own. Saudi Arabia has changed a little bit and seems to be headed in the right direction.

 

[Junaids]

In my opinion UK has no business in the Pacific. Global Britain is a Brexiteer fantasy based on dreams of Empire. UK should be fortifying Europe against Putin. I’m unsure what one RN CVA group will do to intimidate China should they try to seize Taiwan.

The democracies Australia, NZ, USA and Japan should be the Pacific alliance.

UK Exclusive Economic Zone around the British Isles: 298,718 square miles (includes Rockall)
UK Exclusive Economic Zone in the Pacific Ocean: 322,823 square miles (around Pitcairn).

Most British people ignore it, but it is a major Pacific Ocean power.

As is France, which has 1.6 million citizens living in the Pacific Ocean and 90% of its EEZ in the Pacific.

I have drawn a different conclusion from you.

My conclusion is that if you allow uncivilised undemocratic barbarians to achieve a high level of military capability they will hold decent countries to ransom, just as Russia is doing with Ukraine and just as Hitler did with Czechoslovakia.

Ronald Reagan, bless him, showed that while you are richer than them you can defeat them and make their countries fall apart, because their one-party state governments have no legitimacy.

Russia now is nowhere near as strong as the USSR was, and neither is China militarily. So the Reagan Model should still work.

The Israelis had the right idea when they bombed Saddam Hussein's Osirak Nuclear Weapons Facility in 1981. We should have the guts to do what they did, from Iran to North Korea. And also, judging by some of the posts in this thread and the Ukraine one, maybe we should take out Pakistan's WMD too.

 

[JaDed]

The Israelis had the right idea when they bombed Saddam Hussein's Osirak Nuclear Weapons Facility in 1981. We should have the guts to do what they did, from Iran to North Korea. And also, judging by some of the posts in this thread and the Ukraine one, maybe we should take out Pakistan's WMD too.

We who?

Also most of the ones that were arguing in Ukraine threads were British Pakistanis not Pakistani posters per se maybe you should lecture them than Pakistanis.

 

[Colorblind Genius]

::: snip :::

We really are a magnificent race. Intellectually and physically.

“We”?

What race are you talking about?

Aren’t you desi “race”?

I mean those “magnificent (both physically and intellectually)” British conquers who ruled the world and popularized their language were white Caucasian race.

 

[Robert]

UK Exclusive Economic Zone around the British Isles: 298,718 square miles (includes Rockall)
UK Exclusive Economic Zone in the Pacific Ocean: 322,823 square miles (around Pitcairn).

Most British people ignore it, but it is a major Pacific Ocean power.

As is France, which has 1.6 million citizens living in the Pacific Ocean and 90% of its EEZ in the Pacific.

I have drawn a different conclusion from you.

My conclusion is that if you allow uncivilised undemocratic barbarians to achieve a high level of military capability they will hold decent countries to ransom, just as Russia is doing with Ukraine and just as Hitler did with Czechoslovakia.

Ronald Reagan, bless him, showed that while you are richer than them you can defeat them and make their countries fall apart, because their one-party state governments have no legitimacy.

Russia now is nowhere near as strong as the USSR was, and neither is China militarily. So the Reagan Model should still work.

The Israelis had the right idea when they bombed Saddam Hussein's Osirak Nuclear Weapons Facility in 1981. We should have the guts to do what they did, from Iran to North Korea. And also, judging by some of the posts in this thread and the Ukraine one, maybe we should take out Pakistan's WMD too.

Pitcairn is closer to Chile than to China, and I doubt we derive much value from it in terms of minerals and fishing. Its population is under 50. It has no airstrip.

Surely NK is not Britain’s concern. They could retaliate against any pre-emptive strike with a massive tube artillery barrage of Seoul, killing many civilians. It would be Kim’s only option.

USSR’s fall has as much to do with Chernobyl and their ruinous war in Afghanistan than Reagan’s arms race. That fall liberated a lot of countries such as Ukraine, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Baltics states from totalitarianism, and set them on the road to Western style liberal democracy.

I think you’re presenting a highly militaristic view to PP. I’ve tried to show this place how the philosophy of liberalism builds free, just and equitable societies but you’re coming across as a Atlanticist neocolonial conqueror ��

 

[hoshiarpurexpress]

Western values are to connive, look for their own benefits, and bomb other countries.
Throwing democratically elected governments, killing Nuclear Scientists of developing countries and bribing local officials to get their ways are some of the Values that have been on exhibit for past 100 or so years.

Bomb and Raze homes of innocent people and destroying lives of millions of people is also part of the Western Values.

 

[Robert]

Western values are to connive, look for their own benefits, and bomb other countries.
Throwing democratically elected governments, killing Nuclear Scientists of developing countries and bribing local officials to get their ways are some of the Values that have been on exhibit for past 100 or so years.

Bomb and Raze homes of innocent people and destroying lives of millions of people is also part of the Western Values.

That's capitalist vales. The West is better at capitalism historically speaking, though Russia under Putin has caught up.

 

[sweep_shot]

There are both good and bad western values.

Good: Freedom.

Bad: Trying to dictate what other countries do. For example, trying to shove LGBTQ agenda in Africa or democracy in Middle East.

 

[Robert]

There are both good and bad western values.

Good: Freedom.

Bad: Trying to dictate what other countries do. For example, trying to shove LGBTQ agenda in Africa or democracy in Middle East.

When has this actually happened in real life?

 

[sweep_shot]

When has this actually happened in real life?

Check these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzu4WgUOWUM&ab_channel=CNN
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwTgU-RZLHQ&ab_channel=CNN
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0u9Bd7O7RU&ab_channel=DailyMail

 

[Robert]

Check these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yzu4WgUOWUM&ab_channel=CNN
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwTgU-RZLHQ&ab_channel=CNN
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0u9Bd7O7RU&ab_channel=DailyMail

Ah, I thought you meant that Western powers were trying to persuade Africans to adopt LGBTQ+ equality policies, rather than just some journalists interviewing African leaders. Obama expressed an opinion.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

“We”?

What race are you talking about?

Aren’t you desi “race”?

I mean those “magnificent (both physically and intellectually)” British conquers who ruled the world and popularized their language were white Caucasian race.

I was speaking on behalf of the English. I mean they are hardly going to say it themselves are they?

 

[KingKhanWC]

This has to the worst OP in the history of PP )

1. The OP lives in the EAST , Australia is not in the west. The fact he thinks he is living in the west, shows a colonised mind , which instead of trying to merge with the people of the area, they want to force their culture on others.

2. The West could be angels or have the most kind values , this doesnt take away from Russia's actions esp when you see the wests record of killings in the last 500 years.

3. The good values in the west, which there are many are not unique or were invented by the west. Many cultures when England was in dark ages, where its people bathed one day a year, were washing their streets with rose water. The welfare state and everything else positive for the people has been copied from other cultures.

4. The OP has his shirt ironed with pride with values of freedom but also supports Israel, invasions and occupations of others lands. So in reality as long as the OP is free, he is willing not to give those values to others, on the contrary is cheerleading their suffering.

 

[Technics 1210]

This has to the worst OP in the history of PP )

1. The OP lives in the EAST , Australia is not in the west. The fact he thinks he is living in the west, shows a colonised mind , which instead of trying to merge with the people of the area, they want to force their culture on others.

2. The West could be angels or have the most kind values , this doesnt take away from Russia's actions esp when you see the wests record of killings in the last 500 years.

3. The good values in the west, which there are many are not unique or were invented by the west. Many cultures when England was in dark ages, where its people bathed one day a year, were washing their streets with rose water. The welfare state and everything else positive for the people has been copied from other cultures.

4. The OP has his shirt ironed with pride with values of freedom but also supports Israel, invasions and occupations of others lands. So in reality as long as the OP is free, he is willing not to give those values to others, on the contrary is cheerleading their suffering.

The OP's own liberal fraternity label him as militant, which ultimately proves the hail Mary point, Liberals are a confused soul.

One day they will be free of the Zionist shackles that condemns them to mental slavery.

 

[KingKhanWC]

The OP's own liberal fraternity label him as militant, which ultimately proves the hail Mary point, Liberals are a confused soul.

One day they will be free of the Zionist shackles that condemns them to mental slavery.

Its sad to see brown people so ashamed for their history, colour of skin and culture they feel a strong urge to defend everything because it makes them forget those permanent traits.

Its also so simplistic and childish of arguments, . .ie... we can bomb, invade , kill , have peados in our Royals but its fine because are the good guys, the civilised because we say not because of our actions.

Its even sadder to see the good values in the west such as privacy, great health care, a good standard of living are actually going down the toilet.

 

[Technics 1210]

Its sad to see brown people so ashamed for their history, colour of skin and culture they feel a strong urge to defend everything because it makes them forget those permanent traits.

Its also so simplistic and childish of arguments, . .ie... we can bomb, invade , kill , have peados in our Royals but its fine because are the good guys, the civilised because we say not because of our actions.

Its even sadder to see the good values in the west such as privacy, great health care, a good standard of living are actually going down the toilet.

What else do you expect? Liberals and the West have no values, what they do have are MSM feeds and Zionists headlines. Heck, the West has no families values now, all about how many iPhones, Laptops, Ipads etc.

Liberals defend Andrew, defend the bombing of innocent folk, support the extradition of those who expose the truth (Assange). The list goes on.

Liberals have no thought of their own, when the Zionist MSM commands them, liberals shout - yes sir yes sir three bags full sir.

 

[JaDed]

We know best attitude of western population is the most annoying aspect honestly.

Wrt Europe also have severe dislike for ultra nationalism almost to an extent that no one else can become a part of their national identity.
This problem exists with Japanese too.

But western democracy, scientific approach to
solving problems are definitely great and deserve the respect.

 

[Technics 1210]

We know best attitude of western population is the most annoying aspect honestly.

Wrt Europe also have severe dislike for ultra nationalism almost to an extent that no one else can become a part of their national identity.
This problem exists with Japanese too.

But western democracy, scientific approach to
solving problems are definitely great and deserve the respect.

Amreeka's advance in science post WW2 was down to Nazi scientists who had fled to USA post WW2 as refugees. Fact.

Rocket, Flight, Missile, and Nuclear technology, all down to Nazi scientists. NASA owes its success to Nazi scientist. Example : Look up the brand BRAUN. Named after a Nazi who seeked refuge in Amreeka post WW2.

Amreeka would not have orbited the earth let alone landed on the moon, let alone refined nuclear weapons, had it not been for Nazis turned Amreekan refugees.

This is all a documented fact, but Zionists and Liberals, hide this reality cos they need a bogeyman to control society.

 

[JaDed]

Amreeka's advance in science post WW2 was down to Nazi scientists who had fled to USA post WW2 as refugees. Fact.

Rocket, Flight, Missile, and Nuclear technology, all down to Nazi scientists. NASA owes its success to Nazi scientist. Example : Look up the brand BRAUN. Named after a Nazi who seeked refuge in Amreeka post WW2.

Amreeka would not have orbited the earth let alone landed on the moon, let alone refined nuclear weapons, had it not been for Nazis turned Amreekan refugees.

This is all a documented fact, but Zionists and Liberals, hide this reality cos they need a bogeyman to control society.

No they don’t, America has even made shows on it.

Liberals in America hate American history more than you think lol to an extent that I get shocked when I have a conversation with them.

Many Liberals openly discuss issues with American past.

America tries to get best immigrants they always have, even now they try to get best scientific minds.

 

[Technics 1210]

No they don’t, America has even made shows on it.

Liberals in America hate American history more than you think lol to an extent that I get shocked when I have a conversation with them.

Many Liberals openly discuss issues with American past.

America tries to get best immigrants they always have, even now they try to get best scientific minds.

Does not change the fact Amreeka's advances in science and technology post WW2 was down to Nazi scientists. The irony!

Hitler is the greatest enemy according to the West, AIPAC, yet Hitler's scientists were game. Western hypocrisy at a other level.

And yes, Liberals in Amreeka are viewed as the spawn of Satan. No denying.

Amreeka should be saluting Nazi scientists, which without, would still be burning camp fires.

 

[MenInG]

Dont get personal or posts will be deleted

 

[Robert]

America tries to get best immigrants they always have, even now they try to get best scientific minds.

Everyone knows about Wernher von Braun, the rocketry engineer. I read about him when I was a wee lad, though I didn't know he was a SS member who used slave labour until much later in my life.

Of course, the USSR also acquired Nazi rocket scientists, and held a lead on the Space Race for a time, getting the first object into orbit, the first man into orbit, the first woman into orbit, and performing the first spacewalk with NASA trailing in their wake.

But USA won the Space Race by landing on the Moon with Apollo a bit before the USSR Zond project was due to launch.

 

[Abel Reames]

But USA won the Space Race by landing on the Moon with Apollo.

Never happened, another Zionist conspiracy.

 

[ElRaja]

1. A willingness to respect opinions and behaviours different to one's own, notably:
- support of individual rights and freedom of expression.
- support for individual liberty, free trade and social development and reform.

2. Recognition of the primacy of science and learning over traditional or religious dogma.

3. Recognition that the law must always reflect the will of the people, not the dogma of a single political party or religion.

as an old school small 'l' liberal i disagree with the second and third point.

as someone who studied a scientific discipline at uni i disagree with two on the grounds that scientific endevour does not require such special treatment, every person should have the ability to indulge in whatever dogma they wish so long as they dont hurt anyone.

decisions of economic, political, and social importance will always be based on scientific foundations in a society where no dogma is given preferential treatment.

the right to free speech and expression should be a non-negotiable, and not subject to the will of the people. as with all things an inch offered results in a mile given, and thus beyond the remit of the third point.

the declaration of taboos via censorship under the threat of legal penalty is a sign that some argument or belief cannot stand up to challenge and debate.

and the idea that free speech can be used to incite hatred, whilst censored speech cannot is duplicitous and manipulative, and designed to give the power structure the ability to direct towards which person or group hate can be legally directed.

western societal values reached their economic zenith in the adoption of the calvanist protestant work ethic and respect for private property combined with the englishtment approach to science and discovery in western europe and the new world. modern western values focused on the imposition of group centric pseudo individualism are motivated by a cancerous form of socialised capitalism where governo-corporate entities are looking to divide society to maximal marginal consumption.

modern western values are shifting towards a greater oppostion to fundamental liberalism by the day.

 

[KingKhanWC]

as an old school small 'l' liberal i disagree with the second and third point.

as someone who studied a scientific discipline at uni i disagree with two on the grounds that scientific endevour does not require such special treatment, every person should have the ability to indulge in whatever dogma they wish so long as they dont hurt anyone.

decisions of economic, political, and social importance will always be based on scientific foundations in a society where no dogma is given preferential treatment.

the right to free speech and expression should be a non-negotiable, and not subject to the will of the people. as with all things an inch offered results in a mile given, and thus beyond the remit of the third point.

the declaration of taboos via censorship under the threat of legal penalty is a sign that some argument or belief cannot stand up to challenge and debate.

and the idea that free speech can be used to incite hatred, whilst censored speech cannot is duplicitous and manipulative, and designed to give the power structure the ability to direct towards which person or group hate can be legally directed.

western societal values reached their economic zenith in the adoption of the calvanist protestant work ethic and respect for private property combined with the englishtment approach to science and discovery in western europe and the new world. modern western values focused on the imposition of group centric pseudo individualism are motivated by a cancerous form of socialised capitalism where governo-corporate entities are looking to divide society to maximal marginal consumption.

modern western values are shifting towards a greater oppostion to fundamental liberalism by the day.

Please define this.

Note they must be unique to west and invented, bought into existence by them.

 

[ElRaja]

Please define this.

Note they must be unique to west and invented, bought into existence by them.

my sights getting weak, but im not sure what uve highlighted.

but if ive highlighted modern western values i mean the move towards division of people into self identification groups, loosely defined on grounds of personal experience or temperamental differences as somehow being equivalent to greater social groups which are defined by, for the most part biological differences or shared historical injustice, usually at the price of the conventional family structure.

as far as i know these kind of ideas are purely a product of the west, and have never been spoken about outside of the cultural west before.

 

[KingKhanWC]

my sights getting weak, but im not sure what uve highlighted.

but if ive highlighted modern western values i mean the move towards division of people into self identification groups, loosely defined on grounds of personal experience or temperamental differences as somehow being equivalent to greater social groups which are defined by, for the most part biological differences or shared historical injustice, usually at the price of the conventional family structure.

as far as i know these kind of ideas are purely a product of the west, and have never been spoken about outside of the cultural west before.

No probs .

Yes it was to define what you wrote at 'modern western values'.

So this is just one value which you believe allows people define themselves. Tbh never to be offensive to you but this is doesnt make any sense, please clarify in simple terms as I would like to know what you mean?

 

[Robert]

[MENTION=154981]Abel Reames[/MENTION] -

This is what Zionists actually look like:

 

[Junaids]

I think you’re presenting a highly militaristic view to PP. I’ve tried to show this place how the philosophy of liberalism builds free, just and equitable societies but you’re coming across as a Atlanticist neocolonial conqueror ��

Apologies for that.

I don't feel that there is any need to relive the Crusades, and to try to impose my liberal beliefs on others.

What I do feel is that we only get one life, and everyone is entitled to a decent level of freedom. But I don't feel that it is our job to enforce it unless you get a situation like Taliban Afghanistan, in which people's lives are destroyed by an evil government.

Look at their key indicators:
- girls don't get educated at all.
- rape of one's wife is legal.
- life expectancy after the Taliban fell increased from 45 to 62, and has now fallen back again.
- infant mortality is 45 per 1,000 live births.
- nobody gets to elect the government.

That is not ok. We cannot let an entire country be destroyed by savages like the Taliban - if we were under their yoke I would expect someone to liberate us.

This is not "Team America - World Police". But I do believe that there is a red line that can be crossed, and the Taliban is a prime example - at which point the decent, civilised world has an obligation to rescue people from evil savagery.

 

[Junaids]

[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION].

Zionists are Clangers?

Fantastic! So what is Bagpuss? And what about Mr Benn?

 

[KingKhanWC]

[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION].

Zionists are Clangers?

Fantastic! So what is Bagpuss? And what about Mr Benn?

Sadly this is the level of debate which you both are producing.

Care to respond to my reply unless its Putin is evil

 

[ElRaja]

No probs .

Yes it was to define what you wrote at 'modern western values'.

So this is just one value which you believe allows people define themselves. Tbh never to be offensive to you but this is doesnt make any sense, please clarify in simple terms as I would like to know what you mean?

historically where freedom of speech has been curtailed, and i dont agree with this, it has been on the supposition of protecting some marginalised group on the grounds of historic injustices.

modern western values have *******ised the concept of damage caused to immesuarables such as emotional damage, or offense caused, both metrics which cannot be measured.

this allows anyone to define themselves as part of a marginalised group on the basis of percienved offense and demand greater restrictions on free speech.

when i grew up they taught us sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me. now we live in a world where doctors are afraid of telling fat people there obesity will kill them because they might hurt their feelings.

 

[KingKhanWC]

historically where freedom of speech has been curtailed, and i dont agree with this, it has been on the supposition of protecting some marginalised group on the grounds of historic injustices.

modern western values have *******ised the concept of damage caused to immesuarables such as emotional damage, or offense caused, both metrics which cannot be measured.

this allows anyone to define themselves as part of a marginalised group on the basis of percienved offense and demand greater restrictions on free speech.

when i grew up they taught us sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me. now we live in a world where doctors are afraid of telling fat people there obesity will kill them because they might hurt their feelings.

Thanks.

Not sure if this is a western value but if so a very negative one. Western social structure has changed to free speech, where you can make a joke about anything, be offensive with no intention or simply able to protest, challenge authorities.. All these are now controlled or diminishing. Some say its because of snowflake, woke culture but imo there are more important reasons, mainly controlling the masses while brainwashing them to think how you want them to think, to feel how you want them to feel etc.

Niether the OP or Albert Einstein can prove West has invented unique values for the betterment of mankind. The fact the West has taken the good values others cultures invented such as social welfare was a great thing but the best you'll find.

Overall western values are hypocritical as the OP has proven. We want to free, do as our desires want but you cant , so will support dictators , oppressive regimes such as Israel, bomb , loot and the rest..

 

[Abel Reames]

Sadly this is the level of debate which you both are producing.

Care to respond to my reply unless its Putin is evil

Putin is a zionist or a zionist puppet. He invaded Ukraine so that 100,000 Ukranian Jews would seek refuge in Israel and guess where Israel is going to house them, yup in the West Bank. Russia is controlled by rich Jewish oligarchs, so many oligarchs are Jewish way more than the natural population should dictate. These Jewish oligarchs fund Israel and pro-zionist institutes around the world. America and EU has put sanctions on these Jewish oligarchs but that is too confuse you. These zionist are so clever like that playing the villians and victims at the same time. If you don't believe this you must be brainwashed by the liberal MSM. Typical sheep.

 

[ElRaja]

Thanks.

Not sure if this is a western value but if so a very negative one.

i havnt seen this phenomenon in any society before, and yes its very negative.

Western social structure has changed to free speech, where you can make a joke about anything, be offensive with no intention or simply able to protest, challenge authorities.. All these are now controlled or diminishing. Some say its because of snowflake, woke culture but imo there are more important reasons, mainly controlling the masses while brainwashing them to think how you want them to think, to feel how you want them to feel etc.

the last point is what i think is happening, people are being manipulated into feeling lonely, victimised, and unhappy so they fulfill their empitness with mindless consumerism.

Niether the OP or Albert Einstein can prove West has invented unique values for the betterment of mankind. The fact the West has taken the good values others cultures invented such as social welfare was a great thing but the best you'll find.

Overall western values are hypocritical as the OP has proven. We want to free, do as our desires want but you cant , so will support dictators , oppressive regimes such as Israel, bomb , loot and the rest..

i dont think the west, or any group in isolation, has invented any value standard, there are just a mix of values which evolve over time and are slightly different to other groups over time, however the overlap of the englishtment era scientific discovery and the protestation work ethic towards business had a lot to do with with indistrual revolution imo, which gave britiain and subsequently the west a huge advantage over the rest of the world.

as far as ur point re hypocracy goes, i dont disagree, but i see these hypocracies in every society, not just western, its just the west hypocracies are more well documented given theyve been instrmental in the last few hundred years history.

 

[Robert]

Apologies for that.

I don't feel that there is any need to relive the Crusades, and to try to impose my liberal beliefs on others.

What I do feel is that we only get one life, and everyone is entitled to a decent level of freedom. But I don't feel that it is our job to enforce it unless you get a situation like Taliban Afghanistan, in which people's lives are destroyed by an evil government.

Look at their key indicators:
- girls don't get educated at all.
- rape of one's wife is legal.
- life expectancy after the Taliban fell increased from 45 to 62, and has now fallen back again.
- infant mortality is 45 per 1,000 live births.
- nobody gets to elect the government.

That is not ok. We cannot let an entire country be destroyed by savages like the Taliban - if we were under their yoke I would expect someone to liberate us.

This is not "Team America - World Police". But I do believe that there is a red line that can be crossed, and the Taliban is a prime example - at which point the decent, civilised world has an obligation to rescue people from evil savagery.

Well, “we” - meaning NATO, plus much of the Arab League and many Far East states all under the ISAF banner had a twenty year try to uplift the Afghan women, but their men are craven and surrendered control to the Taliban regime in short order. Now their people are starving too, under these incompetent religious psychopaths.

As I pointed out earlier there were Afghan regimes which successfully educated women and girls but there is nobody like that to support now. The Afghans have been trampled by superpowers - the USSR by invading. and USA by arming and training the religious nutters in the first place.

 

[Manunited18]

This has to the worst OP in the history of PP )

1. The OP lives in the EAST , Australia is not in the west. The fact he thinks he is living in the west, shows a colonised mind , which instead of trying to merge with the people of the area, they want to force their culture on others.

2. The West could be angels or have the most kind values , this doesnt take away from Russia's actions esp when you see the wests record of killings in the last 500 years.

3. The good values in the west, which there are many are not unique or were invented by the west. Many cultures when England was in dark ages, where its people bathed one day a year, were washing their streets with rose water. The welfare state and everything else positive for the people has been copied from other cultures.

4. The OP has his shirt ironed with pride with values of freedom but also supports Israel, invasions and occupations of others lands. So in reality as long as the OP is free, he is willing not to give those values to others, on the contrary is cheerleading their suffering.

A confused " uncle Tom" springs to mind.

 

[Technics 1210]

Why hasn't anyone mentioned 'Cancel Culture' yet?

CC is the new norm and is the epitome of hypocrisy and Liberalism in West.

Have a read of why Gary Lineker deleted a tweet about Chloe Kelly’s Euro celebration in her sports bra following an online backlash.

All he did was post a line that was a clever play on words:

"The [MENTION=43420]Lion[/MENTION]esses have only gone and done it, and Kelly is England’s heroine, bra none.”

Liberalism is destroying any semblance of Western values. Freedom isn't an exclusive Western value, over 100 countries share the same freedoms, but in the UK certainly, freedom is becoming more of an illusion.

It's time to cancel Liberalism for good.

 

[Robert]

[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION].

Zionists are Clangers?

Fantastic! So what is Bagpuss? And what about Mr Benn?

Mr Benn is a thinly veiled metaphor for Lord Balfour.

Bagpuss comes across as a friend to children, but Professor Yaffel is clearly a Nazi rocket scientist and the mice on the Mouse Organ his slave Labour force. Bagpuss spirited Yaffel away in 1945 so he avoided the Nuremberg Trials and cheated the hangman’s noose, living out his days as a harmless looking wooden bookend.

Here is objective proof that the Zionists are in league with David Icke’s lizard men:

 

[sweep_shot]

Why hasn't anyone mentioned 'Cancel Culture' yet?

CC is the new norm and is the epitome of hypocrisy and Liberalism in West.

Have a read of why Gary Lineker deleted a tweet about Chloe Kelly’s Euro celebration in her sports bra following an online backlash.

All he did was post a line that was a clever play on words:

"The [MENTION=43420]Lion[/MENTION]esses have only gone and done it, and Kelly is England’s heroine, bra none.”

Liberalism is destroying any semblance of Western values. Freedom isn't an exclusive Western value, over 100 countries share the same freedoms, but in the UK certainly, freedom is becoming more of an illusion.

It's time to cancel Liberalism for good.

You are right about cancel culture part.

It is very cringy at times.

 

[Technics 1210]

Thanks.

Not sure if this is a western value but if so a very negative one. Western social structure has changed to free speech, where you can make a joke about anything, be offensive with no intention or simply able to protest, challenge authorities.. All these are now controlled or diminishing. Some say its because of snowflake, woke culture but imo there are more important reasons, mainly controlling the masses while brainwashing them to think how you want them to think, to feel how you want them to feel etc.

Niether the OP or Albert Einstein can prove West has invented unique values for the betterment of mankind. The fact the West has taken the good values others cultures invented such as social welfare was a great thing but the best you'll find.

Overall western values are hypocritical as the OP has proven. We want to free, do as our desires want but you cant , so will support dictators , oppressive regimes such as Israel, bomb , loot and the rest..

100% spot on. So called Western values which are paraded by the West as the beacons of human civilisation existed long before the West was on the map.

The West has however created some of the most destructive ideologies/systems known to mankind:

Capitalism
Zionism
Racism
Nazism
Colonialism
Economic Slavery
Banking System
Legalisation of Usury
Mortgages
Liberalism
Transgenderism
Gay marriages
Nuclear warfare
Chemical warfare

There is a reason why 2 of the most deadliest wars in human history stemmed from the epicenter of the Western 'values' - Europe.

 

[Robert]

i havnt seen this phenomenon in any society before, and yes its very negative.



the last point is what i think is happening, people are being manipulated into feeling lonely, victimised, and unhappy so they fulfill their empitness with mindless consumerism.



i dont think the west, or any group in isolation, has invented any value standard, there are just a mix of values which evolve over time and are slightly different to other groups over time, however the overlap of the englishtment era scientific discovery and the protestation work ethic towards business had a lot to do with with indistrual revolution imo, which gave britiain and subsequently the west a huge advantage over the rest of the world.

as far as ur point re hypocracy goes, i dont disagree, but i see these hypocracies in every society, not just western, its just the west hypocracies are more well documented given theyve been instrmental in the last few hundred years history.

Western values have of course been developing since the first cavemen started to evolve language.

Absolutely fundamental were Socrates and Plato, as well as mathematicians such as Euclid and Pythagoras. After Greece and Rome fell, their learnings (and those of the ancient Chinese) were picked up by their Caliphates in their shining years from 800-1200 CE. But the science of the Caliphates declined and they fell back into religious ignorance, before European culture broadly united under the Holy Roman Empire was kickstarted by the Enlightenment. Western Christianity can been seen as a fusion of Plato, Judaism and Paganism. All these strands combined and then in the early eighteenth century the philosophy of liberalism began to gain traction - which is, I suggest, the one that has freed up the most individual people of any philosophy in history.

Liberalism is probably in decline as Western people have grown lazy and fearful, no longer taking responsibility for their societies, and are running to populist leaders who provide easy answers to complex societal problems.

China is the coming power, and by the 22nd century will subsume most of the Earth under their brand of authoritarianism as climate change devastates humanity and desperate people turn to whoever can feed them.

 

[happydavy]

"Unlike them, we have voluntarily given up our Asian empires because we recognise that imperialism is wrong. That's not weakness - that's being honourable." When i read this i couldn't stop laughing. Britain was bankrupt post world war 2 and then also had no territorial hegemony as Russia and US troops were stationed in half of Europe after defeating Nazis. The US loaned $4.3bn to Britain in 1945, while Canada loaned US$1.19 bn (£607m) in 1946, at a rate of 2% annual interest. The great empire had no money left and that's the reason they left imperialism. Unfortunately people like the OP had hardly any sense of history and perhaps is benevolent to his adopted country for taking him in.

 

[Abel Reames]

It is disingenous to ask for unique Western values, everything has been evolving since the first organisms left the water of land ( I have to go to work in a bit, I blame those first organisms for having to). Just as disingenous as asking for unique values bought by Islam? I mean that came from the heavens but what was unique?

 

[Robert]

"Unlike them, we have voluntarily given up our Asian empires because we recognise that imperialism is wrong. That's not weakness - that's being honourable." When i read this i couldn't stop laughing. Britain was bankrupt post world war 2 and then also had no territorial hegemony as Russia and US troops were stationed in half of Europe after defeating Nazis. The US loaned $4.3bn to Britain in 1945, while Canada loaned US$1.19 bn (£607m) in 1946, at a rate of 2% annual interest. The great empire had no money left and that's the reason they left imperialism. Unfortunately people like the OP had hardly any sense of history and perhaps is benevolent to his adopted country for taking him in.

Yes and no.

India couldn’t be held militarily after 1948, especially considering that USSR had become the existential threat and HM armed forces were needed to fortify Europe.

But the African colonies could be held, and these became independent by treaty from the 1960s onwards.

 

[Abel Reames]

100% spot on. So called Western values which are paraded by the West as the beacons of human civilisation existed long before the West was on the map.

The West has however created some of the most destructive ideologies/systems known to mankind:

Capitalism
Zionism
Racism
Nazism
Colonialism
Economic Slavery
Banking System
Legalisation of Usury
Mortgages
Liberalism
Transgenderism
Gay marriages
Nuclear warfare
Chemical warfare

There is a reason why 2 of the most deadliest wars in human history stemmed from the epicenter of the Western 'values' - Europe.

At the risk of evoking Dajjal this has to be the most one-eyed view since the Cyclops were written about. Reminds me of a reverse Goodness Gracious skit where everything good was Indian.

Not got much time right now but the West eventually abolished actual slavery. West gave Communism/Socialism/Mixed Economies as well as capitalism. And aspects of capitalism gave us Science, Medicine and Technologies. Racism is as old as the first tribes. Nuclear Energy which may become the energy of the future and the chemical industries have contibuted towards the above mentioned science, medicine and technologies. Vaccines!

The internet, communication etc etc. Transport like air travel. Air conditioning!

 

[happydavy]

Yes and no.

India couldn’t be held militarily after 1948, especially considering that USSR had become the existential threat and HM armed forces were needed to fortify Europe.

But the African colonies could be held, and these became independent by treaty from the 1960s onwards.

Hahaha, you know if you are defending your country then it's fine but if you actually believe in what you are saying then i can only feel sorry for your ignorance. Perhaps time to step out in the real world and visit Africa once to know British left Africa only after ensuring that they can loot Africa forever without being present there. The so called decolonisation means that formal empire would be replaced by informal empire. Do you have any idea about Africa and the degree to which British companies control Africa’s key minerals - gold, platinum, diamonds, copper, oil? Make a list of 70 odd mining UK based companies listed on the LSE, they have mining operations in 30+ African countries and see how much tax do they pay on an average to those African countries for the minerals extracted? In most cases it's ZERO percent. Britian left Africa but not before writing their mining laws, which in many countries gaurantee that only British companies can do the extraction and since extraction is important for prosperity of the nation so no taxes will be paid. British or europeans never left Africa, they have teared the entire continent down to its bare bones and yet they aren't finished.

 

[James]

At the risk of evoking Dajjal this has to be the most one-eyed view since the Cyclops were written about. Reminds me of a reverse Goodness Gracious skit where everything good was Indian.

Not got much time right now but the West eventually abolished actual slavery. West gave Communism/Socialism/Mixed Economies as well as capitalism. And aspects of capitalism gave us Science, Medicine and Technologies. Racism is as old as the first tribes. Nuclear Energy which may become the energy of the future and the chemical industries have contibuted towards the above mentioned science, medicine and technologies. Vaccines!

The internet, communication etc etc. Transport like air travel. Air conditioning!

I agree. There is good and bad to everything. All cultures, societies, civilisations are incredibly layered and complex. Too much binary argument in this thread.

 

[Technics 1210]

Capitalism does not lead to inventions in science, medicine, or technology. Only a ***** would believe this.

Some of then greatest inventions and discoveries either took place before capitalist systems, or outside of capitalism (accidental discoveries).

Capitalism provides opportunity and competition, that's it, and now has lead to the greatest gulf between rich and poor, yes Capitalism is responsible for wealth inequality, and war too.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Hahaha, you know if you are defending your country then it's fine but if you actually believe in what you are saying then i can only feel sorry for your ignorance. Perhaps time to step out in the real world and visit Africa once to know British left Africa only after ensuring that they can loot Africa forever without being present there. The so called decolonisation means that formal empire would be replaced by informal empire. Do you have any idea about Africa and the degree to which British companies control Africa’s key minerals - gold, platinum, diamonds, copper, oil? Make a list of 70 odd mining UK based companies listed on the LSE, they have mining operations in 30+ African countries and see how much tax do they pay on an average to those African countries for the minerals extracted? In most cases it's ZERO percent. Britian left Africa but not before writing their mining laws, which in many countries gaurantee that only British companies can do the extraction and since extraction is important for prosperity of the nation so no taxes will be paid. British or europeans never left Africa, they have teared the entire continent down to its bare bones and yet they aren't finished.

Good post.

The values left in Africa are values of imperial conquest, installing dictators so Africa remains poor and its resources are taken.

Africa should be the richest continent on Earth but is the poorest. Reason , Western Values again.

 

[ElRaja]

Liberalism is probably in decline as Western people have grown lazy and fearful, no longer taking responsibility for their societies, and are running to populist leaders who provide easy answers to complex societal problems.

liberalism is in decline because the development of critical thought was assumed as part of the state education system by the system. and as the system tends towards self survival, the ideology they taught, naturally, increased the importance of the state to the detriment of individual accountability. populism can only exist because people are conditioned to believe that the government, and those who hold its offices, are invaribly competent, when it is obvious that is rarely the case.

i think neitzche commented on how god was replaced by the state as the all knowing entity, and somewhere between that transition lay liberalism where neither god nor the state were trusted.

 

[Technics 1210]

Good post.

The values left in Africa are values of imperial conquest, installing dictators so Africa remains poor and its resources are taken.

Africa should be the richest continent on Earth but is the poorest. Reason , Western Values again.

Western values will turn a blind eye on Rwanda, Congo, Zimbabwe, to name but a few brutalities in Africa. Instead Leaders of such brutal regimes are Knighted, Robert Mugabe.

Bob Geldof did more for Ethiopia than Western governments and their precious values.

 

[happydavy]

Good post.

The values left in Africa are values of imperial conquest, installing dictators so Africa remains poor and its resources are taken.

Africa should be the richest continent on Earth but is the poorest. Reason , Western Values again.

I think it's important to call a spade a spade. Western civilization like all other civilizations have contributed to the modern society but to glorify the horrendous crimes they have done on the humanity by saying "we gave up imperialism because we thought was wrong" as OP stated in his post is absolute bull. Either OP suffers from some massive inferiority complex and is trying to fit in western society or he generally doesn't have any sense of history.

 

[KingKhanWC]

Western values will turn a blind eye on Rwanda, Congo, Zimbabwe, to name but a few brutalities in Africa. Instead Leaders of such brutal regimes are Knighted, Robert Mugabe.

Bob Geldof did more for Ethiopia than Western governments and their precious values.

In Algeria the French beheaded people, stuck their heads on a pole. Now they link beheading with the Muslim faith, knowing full well this has been a long standing European practice. Not sure what this value is called, perhaps polling people into freedom?

 

[Technics 1210]

In Algeria the French beheaded people, stuck their heads on a pole. Now they link beheading with the Muslim faith, knowing full well this has been a long standing European practice. Not sure what this value is called, perhaps polling people into freedom?

It’s all propaganda, Europe is literally white washing the dark stains of it’s history as we speak through talk of liberalism and democracy. This is the same France that talks of liberties, gifted Amreeka the statue of Liberty, only to surrender unconditionally to the Nazis. France has a litany of violence and fascism, and they are proud of it.

 

[Abel Reames]

Capitalism provides opportunity and competition, that's it, and now has lead to the greatest gulf between rich and poor, yes Capitalism is responsible for wealth inequality, and war too.

Like as if Kings and serfs, master and slaves, Maharajas and the hoi polloi never existed before capitalism. Like the world was serene with no war til capitalism arrived.

 

[Major]

If so mamy people hate west and its liberalism, why not pack your bags and move to russia, africa or your ancestoral country.

Dont you guys call afghans as namak harams just for that?