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India, daylight, Pakistan, daylight, rest of Asia

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bujhee kom

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That is the manifest order of Asian ODI sides right now. India are clearly the best (and world #3 after Eng and Aus) and then Pakistan (about world #5/6). Then the others are all languishing near the scrap heap.
 
bujhee kom said:
If they play a full strength side they are. This will become obvious next year when they make it WC #6.
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They had Warner, Smith, Starc, Cummins, and Hazlewood in the ODI series at home against England at the start of this year. They lose 4-1.
 
Sachin136 said:
They had Warner, Smith, Starc, Cummins, and Hazlewood in the ODI series at home against England at the start of this year. They lose 4-1.
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That can happen, especially against the #1 side. If the 2 clash in a WC KO or final - we all know the outcome.
 
Australia are not that great even with Smith, Warner and their fast-bowlers. England outclassed them at the CT and in the ODI series after the Ashes. Smith simply isn't a very good ODI batsman and their middle-order is also fragile.
 
Afghanistan is certainly a side to reckon with in Asian conditions. Bangladesh and Sri Lanka sure are at the bottom of the scrap heap now.
 
India isn't even that good. Nobody has managed to get our openers out quick in this tournament or else our fragile middle order would've been exposed like in the Champions Trophy Final.
 
There is no team in international cricket that is definitely the top team in any format. There are no windies of the 80s, aussies of the 90s. Several teams can claim to be the best right now, and points can be made against all those teams as well. Until someone can consistently win away from home, there will be no top team.
 
If ROhit and Dhawan both fail, Indian batting will be in shambles.

Luckily for India, one of Dhawan and Rohit are scoring and carrying the team.
 
adil_909 said:
There is no team in international cricket that is definitely the top team in any format. There are no windies of the 80s, aussies of the 90s. Several teams can claim to be the best right now, and points can be made against all those teams as well. Until someone can consistently win away from home, there will be no top team.
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England is pretty good on flat tracks which is 90% of ODI pitches these days. They got monster hitters packed in their side till 10
 
Premature thread, completely failing to consider the fact that 90% of ODI pitches are the opposite of these clay fields in the UAE.
 
The details or merits in x or y condition can be debated but that India are the best Asian ODI side and Pakistan second is clear.
Then it's a cluster amongst the others. Sadly Bangladesh have fallen far from the lofty heights of 2015.
 
Not some lame jinx, but this is exactly the kind of Pak (vs Afg) that can straddle this alleged daylight within a single game. Hope we lose on Sunday and make it past Afg so we can beat Pak in the final.
 
TNAmarkFromIndia said:
India isn't even that good. Nobody has managed to get our openers out quick in this tournament or else our fragile middle order would've been exposed like in the Champions Trophy Final.
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That's like saying "nobody has beaten us yet so we haven't lost".
 
Dont be disguised by this match. Afg have brilliant spinners and it was a brilliant chase considering 250 is very tough to chase in these conditions.
Pak have momentum on their side and it will now be diffucult to beat this side.
Dont forget world cup is in Eng and pak have 5-6 quality fast bowlers
So all in all its ridiculous to come to conclusion after just 3 matches in asia cup and ind having not played afg
 
Current India and Pakistan are more or less at the same level, with proper selection India will have a higher ceiling but nepotism and politics rule the roost these days. Also we are too much dependent on Kohli which is a big weakness.
 
No team is consistent enough to justify the rankings.. any team can be a pile of crap or can be a behemoth on any given day at present. ghar ka sher, bahar ka chuha
 
In Cricket conditions matter alot
In world cup when we play Afghanistan in Leeds, i expect us to win it easily but today because of Abu Dhabi i was really worried even before the game and we could have easily lost.
Secondly i don't think there is a daylight between India and Pakistan , in these conditions India is better but in England Pakistan is on par with Inida.
And i am making a big call if Afghans manage to keep their feet on ground i expect them to win atleast one ICC trophy by 2023 (maybe 2023 WC because its in India)
 
Swashbuckler said:
Current India and Pakistan are more or less at the same level, with proper selection India will have a higher ceiling but nepotism and politics rule the roost these days. Also we are too much dependent on Kohli which is a big weakness.
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We are too reliant on Fakhar too. Without him we are unable to reach 300 apparently.
 
These days teams have become conditions dependent. England should be the best all round side that can beat anyone anywhere except on turning tracks.
 
Currently Indian bowling > Pak bowling. So either Pak bowling unit has to step up else they need to offset that by better batting.
 
Deewana said:
In Cricket conditions matter alot
In world cup when we play Afghanistan in Leeds, i expect us to win it easily but today because of Abu Dhabi i was really worried even before the game and we could have easily lost.
Secondly i don't think there is a daylight between India and Pakistan , in these conditions India is better but in England Pakistan is on par with Inida.
And i am making a big call if Afghans manage to keep their feet on ground i expect them to win atleast one ICC trophy by 2023 (maybe 2023 WC because its in India)
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Based on what? You won the CT but your batting was not exactly great other than the Final.We have always done well in England for ODIs. Even in 2014 disastrous tour, we won the series by 3-1.
 
I think Pakistan finally got the right combination after drubbing against India. They needed to play extra batsmen as Sarfraz these days is more like a cheerleader and less a batsman. 2 spinners (nawaz and shadab) and combo of Amir, Shaheen, Hasan with top 1 - 2 batsmen clicking will win Pak the cup.
 
bujhee kom said:
That is the manifest order of Asian ODI sides right now. India are clearly the best (and world #3 after Eng and Aus) and then Pakistan (about world #5/6). Then the others are all languishing near the scrap heap.
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The games we have seen so far suggest that there is no daylight whatsoever between Afghanistan and Pakistan, or for that matter Afghanistan and India. Close fought games both. And we know why; they may well have the best LOI spin attack in the world.
 
Dingolfy said:
Based on what? You won the CT but your batting was not exactly great other than the Final.We have always done well in England for ODIs. Even in 2014 disastrous tour, we won the series by 3-1.
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Well one would like to base such arguments on recent evidence. So, we might want to look at a major tournament in England in which we were able to gauge the strengths of all major teams, and see India and Pakistan play each other, preferably more than once...hmm I wonder...I mean his argument is pretty solid because well neigh a tautology, there is actually no other evidences to go by right now
 
New Yorker said:
Well one would like to base such arguments on recent evidence. So, we might want to look at a major tournament in England in which we were able to gauge the strengths of all major teams, and see India and Pakistan play each other, preferably more than once...hmm I wonder...I mean his argument is pretty solid because well neigh a tautology, there is actually no other evidences to go by right now
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Your batting was pretty weak in CT barring the final.Struggled to chase even 230 against Srilanka. I don't think that is something which can be dismissed.Chasing has always been your achilles heel due to the way your batsmen approach it and I don't see no evidence of that being changed.Most of your batsmen still bat in the old fashioned way.Would have lost today's match against India or any other major team with good fielding team.
 
And we have won the Sharjah cup in 1998 against the mighty Aussies , thanks to Sachin's blitzkrieg. But even the most ardent Indian fan wouldn't have said that team was on par with Aussies in UAE. It was just the brilliance of Tendulkar.
 
New Yorker said:
The games we have seen so far suggest that there is no daylight whatsoever between Afghanistan and Pakistan, or for that matter Afghanistan and India. Close fought games both. And we know why; they may well have the best LOI spin attack in the world.
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Afghanistan hasn't faced India in ODIs apart from one in the 2014 Asia Cup, so I'm not sure which close game you're talking about.
 
Pakistan hasn't played to their potential yet. Otherwise they are the best Asian side in ODIs in these conditions.
Expect Pakistan to come very hard at India in the next game. I will be surprised if Pakistan do not win the Asia cup.
 
TNAmarkFromIndia said:
India isn't even that good. Nobody has managed to get our openers out quick in this tournament or else our fragile middle order would've been exposed like in the Champions Trophy Final.
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Yes,the real test will come for India when Rohit and Dhawan gets out with 10 runs on the board.
 
Mainul said:
Yes,the real test will come for India when Rohit and Dhawan gets out with 10 runs on the board.
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Real test will be when India get all out within 50 runs. Then we will see what Indian team is really made up of.
 
Sachin136 said:
Afghanistan hasn't faced India in ODIs apart from one in the 2014 Asia Cup, so I'm not sure which close game you're talking about.
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I think your argument is the puzzling one. India hasn't faced Afghanistan except in the game in which they faced Afghanistan?

India played Afghanistan and barely scraped a win. Pakistan played Afghanistan and barely scraped a win.

How do we go from these empirically incontestable observations to the conclusion that there is daylght between India and Afghanistan, or Pakistan and Afghanistan?
 
BaankeJi said:
Pakistan hasn't played to their potential yet. Otherwise they are the best Asian side in ODIs in these conditions.
Expect Pakistan to come very hard at India in the next game. I will be surprised if Pakistan do not win the Asia cup.
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Pakistan may not have played to their potential but they are not the best side in these conditions, India clearly is, because India has better spinners and more spinners.
 
Dingolfy said:
Your batting was pretty weak in CT barring the final.Struggled to chase even 230 against Srilanka. I don't think that is something which can be dismissed.Chasing has always been your achilles heel due to the way your batsmen approach it and I don't see no evidence of that being changed.Most of your batsmen still bat in the old fashioned way.Would have lost today's match against India or any other major team with good fielding team.
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You can't seriously argue that a game in which Pakistan beat Lanka somewhat uncomfortably proves that Pakistan is not as good as India, if India actually lost to the same Lankan team, in the same week.

You know how scientists infamously can't explain how the bumblee flies? Aerodynically it is not supposed to be able to do it. But it still does. It's like that with these kinds of arguments. The only thing that we can objectively argue about it is objective reality. Not your personal theory of why something isnt supposed to be.

If the argument is, which team is strongest in English conditions, these days, you would have to conclude, after the evidence has been submitted, that Pakistan is. It doesn't mean Pakistan is better than India in ODIs at all. Or better at batting, or fielding, or even bowling. It just means they are better than them in England.
 
New Yorker said:
I think your argument is the puzzling one. India hasn't faced Afghanistan except in the game in which they faced Afghanistan?

India played Afghanistan and barely scraped a win. Pakistan played Afghanistan and barely scraped a win.

How do we go from these empirically incontestable observations to the conclusion that there is daylght between India and Afghanistan, or Pakistan and Afghanistan?
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Dude that was against HongKong. What the hell are you on about
 
New Yorker said:
I think your argument is the puzzling one. India hasn't faced Afghanistan except in the game in which they faced Afghanistan?

India played Afghanistan and barely scraped a win. Pakistan played Afghanistan and barely scraped a win.

How do we go from these empirically incontestable observations to the conclusion that there is daylght between India and Afghanistan, or Pakistan and Afghanistan?
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You're talking nonsense now.

In the 2014 Asia Cup when India vs Afg we bowled them out for 159 and won with 20 overs and 8 wickets to spare.

Even the HK game in this year's Asia Cup never went out of our control of the Indian team. We dropped Bumrah and Pandya and used the game to play debutants and still won it by a 10% margin.
 
the_outsider said:
You're talking nonsense now.

In the 2014 Asia Cup when India vs Afg we bowled them out for 159 and won with 20 overs and 8 wickets to spare.

Even the HK game in this year's Asia Cup never went out of our control of the Indian team. We dropped Bumrah and Pandya and used the game to play debutants and still won it by a 10% margin.
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If we can't agree on facts there is no point arguing at all. I don't care about history, whether it is 2014 or 2000. This is a thread about current standings. Just this week India played Afghanistan and barely scraped by with a win. Just this week Pakistan played Afghanistan and almost lost. Just this week Afghanistan crushed both Lanka and Bangladesh. How do we go from this evidence that is before us to argue that currently, there is daylight between India, Pakistan and Afghanistan? None of this is to say that India is not the best ODI side in Asia, and probably the world. I think it is. But it is also a best ODI side which lost the CT cup, and was, in the end, definitely the second best team in that tournament, having also lost to Lanka in the league stages.
 
New Yorker said:
If we can't agree on facts there is no point arguing at all. I don't care about history, whether it is 2014 or 2000. This is a thread about current standings. Just this week India played Afghanistan and barely scraped by with a win. Just this week Pakistan played Afghanistan and almost lost. Just this week Afghanistan crushed both Lanka and Bangladesh. How do we go from this evidence that is before us to argue that currently, there is daylight between India, Pakistan and Afghanistan? None of this is to say that India is not the best ODI side in Asia, and probably the world. I think it is. But it is also a best ODI side which lost the CT cup, and was, in the end, definitely the second best team in that tournament, having also lost to Lanka in the league stages.
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When did India played Afghanistan ?
 
Come back when you win CT like Pak.
Pak>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Bang>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>India
 
India is ahead on the basis of experience and consistency which Pak lacks. Skillwise Pak if not better is equal, CT 17 was just one example of that.

But yes India has more experienced top 3 (Top 2 in this Asia cup) and are more consistent in each department.
 
kuskash said:
Come back when you win CT like Pak.
Pak>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Bang>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>India
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Also come back when you draw a test series in England :dw
 
kuskash said:
Come back when you win CT like Pak.
Pak>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Bang>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>India
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Bringing CT in every discussion is getting boring and stupid. I know the defeat hurt but you lot need to learn how to move on.
 
New Yorker said:
If we can't agree on facts there is no point arguing at all. I don't care about history, whether it is 2014 or 2000. This is a thread about current standings. Just this week India played Afghanistan and barely scraped by with a win. Just this week Pakistan played Afghanistan and almost lost. Just this week Afghanistan crushed both Lanka and Bangladesh. How do we go from this evidence that is before us to argue that currently, there is daylight between India, Pakistan and Afghanistan? None of this is to say that India is not the best ODI side in Asia, and probably the world. I think it is. But it is also a best ODI side which lost the CT cup, and was, in the end, definitely the second best team in that tournament, having also lost to Lanka in the league stages.
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What is going on buddy? India have yet to play Afghans in this Asia cup.
 
BaankeJi said:
Real test will be when India get all out within 50 runs. Then we will see what Indian team is really made up of.
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[MENTION=136446]Mainul[/MENTION] actually has a valid point. Indian middle order is weak and has not been tested enough in this asia cup. Most of the indian fans are aware of that.
 
New Yorker said:
If we can't agree on facts there is no point arguing at all. I don't care about history, whether it is 2014 or 2000. This is a thread about current standings. Just this week India played Afghanistan and barely scraped by with a win. Just this week Pakistan played Afghanistan and almost lost. Just this week Afghanistan crushed both Lanka and Bangladesh. How do we go from this evidence that is before us to argue that currently, there is daylight between India, Pakistan and Afghanistan? None of this is to say that India is not the best ODI side in Asia, and probably the world. I think it is. But it is also a best ODI side which lost the CT cup, and was, in the end, definitely the second best team in that tournament, having also lost to Lanka in the league stages.
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India played against Hong Kong. We are going to play against Afghanistan next week.
 
India's 3rd team is easily beating Afghanistan (who destroyed Sri Lanka and Bangladesh and almost beat Pakistan). Truly shows how far ahead India is from the rest.

It is kind of sad though to see other Asian teams doing so bad. No Asian team except India can be considered one of the top 5 test or ODI sides.
 
And this is a squad without Kohli, Pandya and Shami.

Then there is further decent backup in Ashwin, Pant, Jadeja, Gill, Shaw, Ishant and Umesh. Good signs, and India should ideally start implementing a rotation policy given opposition strength.
 
bujhee kom said:
If they play a full strength side they are. This will become obvious next year when they make it WC #6.
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They are India is better than a full strength Australian team. It does not mean Australia can't win against India.
 
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