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India is reaping rewards of using domestic performance as a criteria for selection, will we learn?

asifp

ODI Debutant
Joined
Nov 21, 2005
Runs
9,596
Lokesh Rahul = First Class average 52.46

Cheteshwar Pujara = 57.14

Karun Nair - 51.10


Anyone see a trend here?

When will we learn that domestic cricket is the best criteria for selection.

Moyo, YK, Inzi, Miandad, Hanif, Zaheer, Misbah

all averaged near or over 50 in First class cirkcet.

We should continue this trend not try to find some rare diamond who has not that done well in FC, but might surprise us at Test level. That just does not happen.
 
Rahul Dravid and Laxman came into the side purely because of domestic stats. Only later in 2000s Ganguly started using one day stars in tests . Making Yuvi open. Forcing Dravid to open to accommodate some other one day star.
 
Lokesh Rahul = First Class average 52.46

Cheteshwar Pujara = 57.14

Karun Nair - 51.10


Anyone see a trend here?

When will we learn that domestic cricket is the best criteria for selection.

Moyo, YK, Inzi, Miandad, Hanif, Zaheer, Misbah

all averaged near or over 50 in First class cirkcet.

We should continue this trend not try to find some rare diamond who has not that done well in FC, but might surprise us at Test level. That just does not happen.


Mohammad Yousuf had scored 835 runs in his first 19 Fc innings of 2 seasons (1996-1997, 1997-1998) with 2 hundreds.


A latest Example could be of Saud Shakeel who averaged 49 in his debut FC Season with 2 hundreds.


Now should he be given Test Cap immediately ?
 
But In India these guys are made to play atleast 2-3 good seasons before being considered for national selection. On good season should never be a criteria.
 
On the other hand Inzamam played 6 Fc cricket seasons and than made Pakistan Test Team when he made 10 Fc hundreds in last 2 Fc Seasons.
 
Mohammad Yousuf had scored 835 runs in his first 19 Fc innings of 2 seasons (1996-1997, 1997-1998) with 2 hundreds.


A latest Example could be of Saud Shakeel who averaged 49 in his debut FC Season with 2 hundreds.


Now should he be given Test Cap immediately ?

I think OP is suggesting to give caps after 2-3 seasons of solid FC play.
 
Who do you want in this team.? Big difference in our domestic cricket and theirs. The likes of Fawad Alam wreak havoc in our domestic cricket but Babar probably doesn't have the same kind of stats however we all know who has more potential. Same with Mohammad abbas. Look at the guys recent domestic record when really he's just a line and length trundler
 
India is reaping rewards of investing in their grassroots cricket. They have arguably the most knowledgeable batting coaches(at all levels) in the world.

Fawad can go average 60+ against domestic Indian bowlers and he'd still be exposed in internationals.
 
Rubbish bowlers tend to do well in our domestic cricket because of awful batsmen and pitches. The pitches are a disgrace
 
Excellent post. That's why I said Fawad and Haris should have been invested in, instead of Azhar and Asad.
 
Who do you want in this team.? Big difference in our domestic cricket and theirs. The likes of Fawad Alam wreak havoc in our domestic cricket but Babar probably doesn't have the same kind of stats however we all know who has more potential. Same with Mohammad abbas. Look at the guys recent domestic record when really he's just a line and length trundler

Babar has got good statistics in the List A and T20 formats, and has translated it in the International level, but in FC cricket, his average is 40, hence he has performed like a 40 average batsman so far.
 
Babar has got good statistics in the List A and T20 formats, and has translated it in the International level, but in FC cricket, his average is 40, hence he has performed like a 40 average batsman so far.

A 40 average batsman wouldn't have been able to make that 90 he made. Asad has been a rubbish ODI batsman but has a beastly List A record. His first class average isn't great but he's a great Test batsman. Stats aren't everything
 
Very true. FC record should be given importance. It takes out the bias. It is true that watching them play and further dissecting their stats is also important (record in different grounds, against different opposition etc.) but watching for 1 or 2 games is never enough.
 
A 40 average batsman wouldn't have been able to make that 90 he made. Asad has been a rubbish ODI batsman but has a beastly List A record. His first class average isn't great but he's a great Test batsman. Stats aren't everything

Get over that 90, man. It came in a lost match. Asad averages 36 in List A cricket, this is not beastly at all, in what world are you living? Statistics are the best indicator, and on what basis is Babar a great Test batsman? Unbelievable fan boys!
 
If we played England in Pakistan or in UAE, our players would be having the same amount of success.

Wait until these guys go abroad and we will see how well they do.

You need to have balance between picking the top performing players and picking young players, who you think have something special about them.

Australia were picking players who were performing in domestic level despite them being in their thirties, now they picked younger players and you can see the difference that has on them.

It's about finding the right balance and btw, our top performing domestic players are guys like Kamran Akmal
 
India is reaping rewards of investing in their grassroots cricket. They have arguably the most knowledgeable batting coaches(at all levels) in the world.

Fawad can go average 60+ against domestic Indian bowlers and he'd still be exposed in internationals.

I have always wondered why.

How come English, Aussie and Saffer setup doesn't have such coaches? Or do they have it?
 
Get over that 90, man. It came in a lost match. Asad averages 36 in List A cricket, this is not beastly at all, in what world are you living? Statistics are the best indicator, and on what basis is Babar a great Test batsman? Unbelievable fan boys!

Lol he averages 50 in List a with a 90 strike rate. If you had any knowledge at all you would know that his list a record looks poor on cricinfo because it includes his ODI record. Take out his ODI record and see the difference. But that's just what you do isn't it. Blindly look at stats on cricinfo
 
Lol he averages 50 in List a with a 90 strike rate. If you had any knowledge at all you would know that his list a record looks poor on cricinfo because it includes his ODI record. Take out his ODI record and see the difference. But that's just what you do isn't it. Blindly look at stats on cricinfo

Don't live in the past, check it now.
 
Mohammad Yousuf had scored 835 runs in his first 19 Fc innings of 2 seasons (1996-1997, 1997-1998) with 2 hundreds.


A latest Example could be of Saud Shakeel who averaged 49 in his debut FC Season with 2 hundreds.


Now should he be given Test Cap immediately ?

India doesn't hand over test caps with one season of glory. Case in point: Rishabh Pant.

The young wicket keeper star from U-19 World cup has debuted in the Ranji with a avg of 72 at the age of 19 but instead Parthiv got a call as replacement keeper.
 
I have always wondered why.

How come English, Aussie and Saffer setup doesn't have such coaches? Or do they have it?
They have them. Indians just have more and spend a bit more time on finer details due to greater competition. India also has the advantage of variety in pitches those countries don't enjoy, particularly the turners. This makes the coaches more well rounded because they've had to master technique against spin and pace.
 
Lokesh Rahul = First Class average 52.46

Cheteshwar Pujara = 57.14

Karun Nair - 51.10


Anyone see a trend here?

When will we learn that domestic cricket is the best criteria for selection.

Moyo, YK, Inzi, Miandad, Hanif, Zaheer, Misbah

all averaged near or over 50 in First class cirkcet.

We should continue this trend not try to find some rare diamond who has not that done well in FC, but might surprise us at Test level. That just does not happen.

I was thinking to open a thread with same words!So, no one can't agree more than me.
Pakistani selectors are something else.They don't see the domestic records, they see something else!Otherwise,Fawad,Sadaf would have been a regular features in the team.For the same reason you have mentioned,we can see that how Asad Shafiq is inconsistent because he doesn't possess a very good first class record.A player most of the time reflects his FC performances in international arena.Consistent best performance in domestics should be the only criteria in selection.You will find some renowned PP posters here will disagree with you.But truth will always prevail.
 
Lol he averages 50 in List a with a 90 strike rate. If you had any knowledge at all you would know that his list a record looks poor on cricinfo because it includes his ODI record. Take out his ODI record and see the difference. But that's just what you do isn't it. Blindly look at stats on cricinfo

What is Asad's FC record? Curious to know.I think it is around 40.
 
First Pakistan domestic pitches must change.

Then stats from there can be used.

No.
Pakistan's domestic pitches are bowler friendly mostly.You won't find big totals often. So batsmen who averages highest among all in FC in those testing conditions,should be easily the best of all in Pakistan domestic and should be picked.
 
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But In India these guys are made to play atleast 2-3 good seasons before being considered for national selection. On good season should never be a criteria.

This. The criteria should be that the batsman has played at least 3 FC seasons in domestic and averages 45+.
 
Not just domestic FC cricket, India is now giving a lot of importance to the A tours under the supervision of Rahul Dravid. Jayant, Karun, Pandey have all come through this process. In fact, performance on A tours and/or Dravid's approval is enough to win selection even if the FC record is ordinary as we saw in the case of Pandya.

In general India have a lot of options in domestic cricket for batsmen so they are very selective. Not so much in the case of fast bowlers and seam bowling allrounders so you would see a few such cases being selected without the FC record
 
No.
Pakistan's domestic pitches are bowler friendly mostly.You won't find big totals often. So batsmen who averages highest among all in FC in those testing conditions,should be easily the best of all in Pakistan domestic and should be picked.

The issue with Pakistan pitches is that they do not resemble any international ptiches. Players who make hay on these pitches are at odds on international level. There is always a difference between domestic and international performances but nowhere is the gap so huge and without any logic as in Pakistan.

Mediocre domestic players shine at international level, while guns at domestic fail at internationals.
 
Excuses on Pakistan domestic cricket by pakpassioners.
If your taking wickets in bucket loads u must be a trundler. Pitches are helpful and the ball used is a joke.

If a players making runs he's just a ftb, look at Kamran akmal and Imran farhat.
People forget that Kami and Imran used to be very good players in home conditions for Pakistan.
 
Not just domestic FC cricket, India is now giving a lot of importance to the A tours under the supervision of Rahul Dravid. Jayant, Karun, Pandey have all come through this process. In fact, performance on A tours and/or Dravid's approval is enough to win selection even if the FC record is ordinary as we saw in the case of Pandya.

In general India have a lot of options in domestic cricket for batsmen so they are very selective. Not so much in the case of fast bowlers and seam bowling allrounders so you would see a few such cases being selected without the FC record

The legends of last decades (Ganguly, Kumble, Dravid, VVS and Sachin) are guiding the course of Indian cricket. They very well know and understand the deficiencies of the teams they played with. Readily passing on their immense wisdom to the next generation.
 
Excuses on Pakistan domestic cricket by pakpassioners.
If your taking wickets in bucket loads u must be a trundler. Pitches are helpful and the ball used is a joke.

If a players making runs he's just a ftb, look at Kamran akmal and Imran farhat.
People forget that Kami and Imran used to be very good players in home conditions for Pakistan.

What is this "tape ball" ? Is it very different from actual balls used in international cricket? If yes, why does Pakistan use it?
 
A 40 average batsman wouldn't have been able to make that 90 he made. Asad has been a rubbish ODI batsman but has a beastly List A record. His first class average isn't great but he's a great Test batsman. Stats aren't everything

That's a strange logic. A 40 averaging batsman can play good knocks occasionally. Ijazz Ahmed did it so many times.
 
Btw if you look at the stats, Pakistani batsmen actually have better numbers in internationals compared to domestic which means that the pitches in domestics are more difficult than in internationals. This has made us reap the rewards in batting with accompanying degradation in the quality of bowling.

For bowling, I recommend looking at the domestic List-A bowling stats (for Pakistan) as bowlers who perform better there are actually the ones who excel in internationals.
 
On the flip side, Babar Azam averaged just around 38 in FC when he made his test debt iirc.

There are some fundamental differences between the Ranji and the QeA trophy, more so when batting is concerned. The overs duration is much smaller in the QeA trophy, the balls are of inferior quality and the wickets are also mostly of poor quality as Bazid Khan often points out in his interviews. So you cannot take most QeA stats at face value, atleast I don't.

Then comes the batting factor. There is a huge batting culture in India. Most are groomed in a very professional setup and hence possess well coached and solid techniques. You look at Vijay, Rahul, Kohli, Rahane, Nair - every single one of them has a solid technique and because they are brought up on true pitches, they possess a wide array of stroke play. You very rarely come across an Indian batsman with an unconventional technique like Dhoni. The Mumbai school of batting represents the best batting coaching in India with most of the players groomed in the system having the optimal technique. Gavaskar, Tendulkar, Rahane and the list goes on. Also an important point to note is that the use of tape ball isn't as wide as prevalent in Pakistan. Most youngsters play with normal rubber or cork balls and those who are serious in pursuing cricket as a career go into the system at a very young age passing through the levels with each year. As a result of all these factors, you get most Indian batsmen with orthodox techniques and strokeplay.

Whereas in Pakistan, the use of tapeball is widespread in street cricket. The tape ball as most people know, moves around a lot, which probably explains why many Pakistan bowlers know a lot of tricks with the ball. Even in the system, low quality balls are used which also move around far more than a normal cricket ball used in international cricket does (Bazid Khan pointed the same in an interview). When you combine with the poor quality pitches in the domestic circuit, it results in two types of batsmen. One type is the gritty solid batsman who has developed a limited array of strokeplay as he has grown up not wanting to give away his wicket against a ball that moves around prodigiously. Another type is the batsman who has developed his own unconventional technique to counter the moving ball and a pitch that can't be trusted. This is perhaps best embodied by the Karachi school of street smart batsmen right from the likes of Mushtaq Mohammed, Javed Miandad, Younis Khan, Afridi, Sarfaraz and even Fawad Alam. Most of them don't have a text book technique and don't exactly go by the rule book, yet find a way to score runs in their own unique way developed through years of experience and brilliant hand eye coordinaton.

So you find more raw talents in the Pakistan setup and polished talents in the Indian setup, at least as far as batting is concerned. So I don't think you can take most QeA stats at face value and probably requires well trained scouts in spotting talents unlike the Indian system.
 
There's a problem in our domestic cricket if guys like fawad Alam come out on top.
Having seen the little bit of domestic cricket that is televised: a big part of fawads domestic prowess is simply down to opposing domestic teams and captains having no idea how field behind point and the angles required to shut his game down.
 
But yeah, doesn't mean batsmen with high averages in the domestic circuit aren't talented and less equipped. It just means just because someone has an average record in the domestic doesn't mean he will suffer a failure in internationals.
 
No.
Pakistan's domestic pitches are bowler friendly mostly.You won't find big totals often. So batsmen who averages highest among all in FC in those testing conditions,should be easily the best of all in Pakistan domestic and should be picked.

Batsmen who score in supreme bowler friendly conditions need not necessarily succeed in international cricket.

Why?

Cos supreme conditions require different approach to surviving.

Stroke making, pacing, temperament for long innings will never be developed on such pitches. You won't be well rounded either.

Someone like Fawad Alam will outperform 95% of international bats if they all play in Pak domestic pitches. But does that mean he is better than all of them in general? Not necessarily.
 
What is this "tape ball" ? Is it very different from actual balls used in international cricket? If yes, why does Pakistan use it?

I think the grays ball is used in Pakistan domestic mostly. Its cheaper.

Kookaburras balls are used one off.
 
Except for Moyo, all the batsmen you mentioned were solid domestic performers and had an average close to 50 or beyond.

Selecting batsmen based on domestic performances has been a success, so don't know why they think batsmen with an FC average of 38 will suddenly start averaging 50 or around that mark in Tests.

Yousuf was an exception, but no one else has proven the domestic average theory wrong.
 
Rubbish bowlers tend to do well in our domestic cricket because of awful batsmen and pitches. The pitches are a disgrace

Awkward logic.

Most obviously, if it is easy to take wickets it cant be easy to score runs, and vice versa.

Second, there is no basis for saying that a bowler is rubbish until they have been tested.

The latest promotions from the domestic scene, Hasan Ali and Sohail, have not been rubbish.

Who has been not so great is Rahat Ali. Which stands to reason, in so far as his domestic stats are worse.

And until recently, Wahab. Again mediocre domestic stats compared to the competition.

Rahat was essentially selected because he had a bit of extra pace and looked good in the nets.

Which should be a caution to all of those who think they can size up a player by looking at them.
 
There's a problem in our domestic cricket if guys like fawad Alam come out on top.
Having seen the little bit of domestic cricket that is televised: a big part of fawads domestic prowess is simply down to opposing domestic teams and captains having no idea how field behind point and the angles required to shut his game down.

There is an entirely bigger problem afoot if the domestic performers do not get their due chances.
Ie, selection is not based on actual results.

The simplest way to settle the pesky debate over Fawad is to give him a run and see how
he does. Not incidentally, that would also be in keeping with how a domestic system should work,
in so far as it is a system.
.
If they could give Rahat Ali 20 Tests and counting to prove his worth they can give Fawad 10.
168 on debut and ave 41 is good so far.
 
This thread is based on the (false) assumption that the Pakistani domestic setup is as good as the Indian domestic setup.
 
I don't think BCCI selectors use domestic stats for selecting players & shouldn't either. That 57 or 52 average is just an inflation of benchmark - there are at least 20 players in Ranji who has career FC average over 50 or seasonal average over 60. It's just like market per salary in India of 50k INR is like 80k in Pakistan in PKR. I need to check data, but players like Rohit, Vehari, Tewari & many others has glittering career average; for someone like aristo Dhawan, stats are like Imran or Kallis.

I actually think opposite - selectors job is toughest in India for the player pool, yet they are doing fantastic using their judgements rather than stars. Otherwise Virat kohli won't have played for IND.

Rahul & Vvs had to wait longer only because of flawed selection process that time. Both represented south zone & that that time SZ was extremely strong - already had Azhar, Srinath, Kimble, Joshi, Raju, Hirwani & few others filling their quota. Hence, they had to wait (Badani as well) & Ganguly went to AUS in 1991 under east quota. Even Subrto Banarjee played a wc through that window.
 
I firmly believe the selectors and Mickey will look to rebuild the test side after the Aus tour. I expect Misbah to retire after the Aus tour or maximum after the WI tour. Rizwan is also on the edge because he hasn't utilized his opportunities fully during the last few ODI and test innings. So with Misbah and Rizwan, you have two middle order spots opening up, one in the playing 11 and the other on the bench. I believe Asif Zakir and Usman Salahuddin will be the two top contenders for these spots. I don't see any other middle order batting talent who has topped the batting charts. Fawad Alam had an average season by his own standards, Saud Shakeel second season was less than stellar and Haris Sohail is still recovering from the injury.

For openers, I hope Sami and Azhar perform big in the next two matches and silence their doubters. Azhar mainly because people believe he should be at number 3 position in tests. You can either pick Salman Butt or Immam or continue with Sharjeel. Not a big fan of Salman with a test average of 30. A 5 years older Salman cannot be better than the Salman Butt who was banned. Immam needs one more season. So I think they will continue with Sharjeel.

On Fast bowlers side, Both Imran Khan and Sohail Khan are in the firing line. Here, I am not so sure. Inzimam has a habit of graduating players from A-side/ODIs to ODIs/Tests. Therefore, I believe Hassan Ali, Mir Hamza and M Abbas have the biggest chance because they have represented Pakistan A-team/ODI teams. Junaid Khan may have an outside chance if he performs in ODIs for Pakistan. Atif Jabbar has a chance too because he is apparently the quickest bowlers in Pakistan domestic cricket.
 
Except for Moyo, all the batsmen you mentioned were solid domestic performers and had an average close to 50 or beyond.

Selecting batsmen based on domestic performances has been a success, so don't know why they think batsmen with an FC average of 38 will suddenly start averaging 50 or around that mark in Tests.

Yousuf was an exception, but no one else has proven the domestic average theory wrong.
Agree with you.

If most of your domestic batsnen have an average around 37 and on comes Fawad Alam with over 10K runs with a 50+ average then using the same playing conditions he ia gritty and resilient enough to succeed.

He may not make it big Internationally but he should be given a chance.


Or anyone else for that matter.

Domestic List A and FC Averages need to be taken into Account and those who are pulling away from the average should be given chances in the right format Internationally.
 
This thread is based on the (false) assumption that the Pakistani domestic setup is as good as the Indian domestic setup.

If you apply medical protocols mentioned in foreign books on domestic setups, do you assume our healthcare system is as good as USA's?

Moreover, compare Test/FC ratios for both Pak and Indian batsmen. You will be surprised to hear that many current Pakistani batsmen have bettered their FC averages in internationals, so your argument fails miserably on virtually all fronts except for your excessive liking for anything Indian, no matter how ridiculous.
 
I don't think BCCI selectors use domestic stats for selecting players & shouldn't either. That 57 or 52 average is just an inflation of benchmark - there are at least 20 players in Ranji who has career FC average over 50 or seasonal average over 60. It's just like market per salary in India of 50k INR is like 80k in Pakistan in PKR. I need to check data, but players like Rohit, Vehari, Tewari & many others has glittering career average; for someone like aristo Dhawan, stats are like Imran or Kallis.

I actually think opposite - selectors job is toughest in India for the player pool, yet they are doing fantastic using their judgements rather than stars. Otherwise Virat kohli won't have played for IND.

Rahul & Vvs had to wait longer only because of flawed selection process that time. Both represented south zone & that that time SZ was extremely strong - already had Azhar, Srinath, Kimble, Joshi, Raju, Hirwani & few others filling their quota. Hence, they had to wait (Badani as well) & Ganguly went to AUS in 1991 under east quota. Even Subrto Banarjee played a wc through that window.

Correct, systematic methodology:

FC season ends ==> Selectors call top 10 performers to National Academy ==> Select 2-3 players who are technically correct ==> Work on them ==> Throw them into the wild (internationals)

Wrong, haphazard methodology that is followed in Pak cricket:

1) FC season ends ==> Selectors go on a vacation ==> 3 months later out of blue, a few players who are considered technically correct by the selectors are called into the camp regardless of how pathetic they have performed domestically ==> Some impress and make it to internationals ==> More deserving candidates are left chewing their nails

2) FC season ends ==> Selectors go on a vacation ==> 3 months later out of blue, a few players who are hyped by the media are called into the camp regardless of how pathetic they have performed domestically ==> Some impress and make it to internationals ==> More deserving candidates are left chewing their nails
 
The premise of my post being, if the very first step taken by selectors is of a subjective nature, then the outcome can be unpredictable.

In medicine, a diagnosis is often reached after considering two test results. Consider two diagnostic tests, Test A has 100% sensitivity and low specificity, which basically means that the number of false negatives is low on the expense of more false positives,implying that a negative result test will exclude all non-diseased (in our context it will exclude all unworthy players) but a positive result will include a large number of non-diseased (hence this test is used for exclusion/screening and positive results are taken with a pinch of salt).

Test B has 100% specificity and low sensitivity, which basically means that the number of false positives is low on the expense of more false negatives,implying that a positive result will include all diseased (in our context it will include all worthy players) but a negative result will exclude a large number of diseased (hence this test is used for inclusion/confirmation and negative results are taken with a pinch of salt).

Now my question is: which one of selector's subjective assessment and domestic performances do you want Test A and Test B to be?

If selector's subjective assessment is taken as Test A and domestic stats as Test B, then the selector's opinion will be responsible for removing all unworthy players, whereas his affirmative response will be taken with a pinch of salt in the final decision. This is obviously wrong as you are letting the domestic performances rule somebody in and selector's opinion to rule someone out. Inzamam rules Fawad out due to his ugly technique, fine, no problem. But domestic stats allow someone like Kamran Akmal who according to Inzamam may not be technically apt to pass through.

Now reverse the roles. If selector's subjective assessment is taken as Test B and domestic stats as Test A, then the domestic stats will be responsible for removing all unworthy players, whereas good domestic performances will not be enough to get selected. The selector (confirmatory test) will have the final say in who should be included after domestic stats have excluded all unworthy players. E.g. fawad, usman salahuddin et al. who top the charts were not excluded after applying Test A, but Inzamam rules Fawad out due to his ugly technique, fine, no problem. But then he will be left with players like Usman Salahuddin et al. who are technically sound and have scored runs heavily. Players like Babar Azam who have not performed in domestics will be screened out, unless they have a massive FC season next up.
 
They have them. Indians just have more and spend a bit more time on finer details due to greater competition. India also has the advantage of variety in pitches those countries don't enjoy, particularly the turners. This makes the coaches more well rounded because they've had to master technique against spin and pace.

Yet every time they go to England or down under, they crumble against pace. Get a grip people! India's domestic setup is not as good as people claim. Oh, it's getting better, but if India was so good against Pace they'd be drawing series against England and Australia abroad, not losing series 2-0.
 
What is Asad's FC record? Curious to know.I think it is around 40.

In only FC Cricket not including Test's Asad Shafiq Stats are as follow

Matches - 53
Innings - 93
Not Outs - 8
Runs - 3266
Ave - 38.42
100's - 8
50's - 12

Compared to Tests


Matches - 51
Innings - 84
Not Out's - 6
Runs - 3264
Ave - 41.84
100's - 10
50's - 17


So his Tests Stats are clearly better than his FC Stats.
 
Yet every time they go to England or down under, they crumble against pace. Get a grip people! India's domestic setup is not as good as people claim. Oh, it's getting better, but if India was so good against Pace they'd be drawing series against England and Australia abroad, not losing series 2-0.
They lose games because of their pacers.

India's batsman were racking 400+ scores consistently in Australia.
 
They lose games because of their pacers.

India's batsman were racking 400+ scores consistently in Australia.

That record is pretty evident over the last 2 decades.

The few times they have had one decent fast bowler, they have more than competed (drew in Aus and SA and won in Eng and NZ with Zaheer and a batting lineup in its peak).
 
This thread is based on the (false) assumption that the Pakistani domestic setup is as good as the Indian domestic setup.

The only assumption necessary is that there is no systematic way of selecting players which is *better* than the method of selecting those who have performed best, however imperfect this system may be.

It may be that the overall standard of players coming out of Pakistan is less than that of India though I would debate that when it comes to bowlers.

But if it is only a matter of picking the best out of a (bad) bunch then there is no method better than comparing their performances under identical trial conditions.

.
 
In only FC Cricket not including Test's Asad Shafiq Stats are as follow

Matches - 53
Innings - 93
Not Outs - 8
Runs - 3266
Ave - 38.42
100's - 8
50's - 12

Compared to Tests


Matches - 51
Innings - 84
Not Out's - 6
Runs - 3264
Ave - 41.84
100's - 10
50's - 17


So his Tests Stats are clearly better than his FC Stats.

What inferences can you draw on the basis of a sample of one?

The tragedy here is that even assuming that someone like Fawad does
considerable worse in Tests than his FC record, ie, he averages 50 instead
of 56, he would still be quite a lot better than Asad.

No player with Fawad's record and a 168 on debut should have been
dropped after threeTests.
 
The premise of my post being, if the very first step taken by selectors is of a subjective nature, then the outcome can be unpredictable.

In medicine, a diagnosis is often reached after considering two test results. Consider two diagnostic tests, Test A has 100% sensitivity and low specificity, which basically means that the number of false negatives is low on the expense of more false positives,implying that a negative result test will exclude all non-diseased (in our context it will exclude all unworthy players) but a positive result will include a large number of non-diseased (hence this test is used for exclusion/screening and positive results are taken with a pinch of salt).

Test B has 100% specificity and low sensitivity, which basically means that the number of false positives is low on the expense of more false negatives,implying that a positive result will include all diseased (in our context it will include all worthy players) but a negative result will exclude a large number of diseased (hence this test is used for inclusion/confirmation and negative results are taken with a pinch of salt).

Now my question is: which one of selector's subjective assessment and domestic performances do you want Test A and Test B to be?

If selector's subjective assessment is taken as Test A and domestic stats as Test B, then the selector's opinion will be responsible for removing all unworthy players, whereas his affirmative response will be taken with a pinch of salt in the final decision. This is obviously wrong as you are letting the domestic performances rule somebody in and selector's opinion to rule someone out. Inzamam rules Fawad out due to his ugly technique, fine, no problem. But domestic stats allow someone like Kamran Akmal who according to Inzamam may not be technically apt to pass through.

Now reverse the roles. If selector's subjective assessment is taken as Test B and domestic stats as Test A, then the domestic stats will be responsible for removing all unworthy players, whereas good domestic performances will not be enough to get selected. The selector (confirmatory test) will have the final say in who should be included after domestic stats have excluded all unworthy players. E.g. fawad, usman salahuddin et al. who top the charts were not excluded after applying Test A, but Inzamam rules Fawad out due to his ugly technique, fine, no problem. But then he will be left with players like Usman Salahuddin et al. who are technically sound and have scored runs heavily. Players like Babar Azam who have not performed in domestics will be screened out, unless they have a massive FC season next up.

So let them have one massive FC season and then select them. Performing well in at least one domestic season
is pretty much the only way to get selected anywhere in the world, as far as I know. The system does not have to catch every potentially good prospect in the same year, as long as it picks them up as they mature.
 
If we played England in Pakistan or in UAE, our players would be having the same amount of success.

Wait until these guys go abroad and we will see how well they do.


You need to have balance between picking the top performing players and picking young players, who you think have something special about them.

Australia were picking players who were performing in domestic level despite them being in their thirties, now they picked younger players and you can see the difference that has on them.

It's about finding the right balance and btw, our top performing domestic players are guys like Kamran Akmal

Er no..We fail overseas consistently because we have a non existent bowling attack, not because of our batting which steps up most of the times. The 2nd half of the England tour was the only part of the overseas tours where the batsmen collectively imploded.

In the last round of overseas tours to Eng, Aus, SA and NZ in the last 5 years; Vijay, Rahul, Kohli and Rahane all average 40+ with only Pujara being a failure. There is no other asian player who has averaged close to 40 in the specified time period overseas other than the mentioned players.
 
What inferences can you draw on the basis of a sample of one?

The tragedy here is that even assuming that someone like Fawad does
considerable worse in Tests than his FC record, ie, he averages 50 instead
of 56, he would still be quite a lot better than Asad.

No player with Fawad's record and a 168 on debut should have been
dropped after threeTests.

How many domestic batsmen in Pakistan cricket avg. 50+?

The only inference from your stat and other posts i can infer is that Pakistan's domestic structure is far removed from what players face at international level. There is simply no correlation between domestic and international success for Pakistan.
 
Agree with you.

If most of your domestic batsnen have an average around 37 and on comes Fawad Alam with over 10K runs with a 50+ average then using the same playing conditions he ia gritty and resilient enough to succeed.

He may not make it big Internationally but he should be given a chance.


Or anyone else for that matter.

Domestic List A and FC Averages need to be taken into Account and those who are pulling away from the average should be given chances in the right format Internationally.

Fawad deserves a run of 5 Tests.

Also, he did very well when he was asked to open the innings and made a century, despite being a middle order bat and potentially never having played in that position before.
 
India has a far better system all round so are rightfully reaping the benefits. In particular their domestic competitions are highly fought over allowing them to produce batsmen who can perform under immense pressure.
 
How many domestic batsmen in Pakistan cricket avg. 50+?

The only inference from your stat and other posts i can infer is that Pakistan's domestic structure is far removed from what players face at international level. There is simply no correlation between domestic and international success for Pakistan.

In that case we are reading entirely different numbers. There does seem to be correlation, I don't know
how close. And it would be interesting to see some regression analysis. But it seems unlikely that someone
will do better in international cricket than in domestic cricket. So it makes little sense to pick a batsman
who is averaging 39 in Fc cricket over one who is averaging 56.

People like to trot out Asad's FC stats as the exception that would disprove the rule. But it seems pretty telling
that even in his case his international performance is not that much ahead of his domestic record. We are talking
2-3 points spread. Which means that his performance in domestics and internationals is in fact correlating very
strongly.
 
Who do you want in this team.? Big difference in our domestic cricket and theirs. The likes of Fawad Alam wreak havoc in our domestic cricket but Babar probably doesn't have the same kind of stats however we all know who has more potential. Same with Mohammad abbas. Look at the guys recent domestic record when really he's just a line and length trundler

yes we all know fawad has more potential...
 
Amol Muzumdar never got an opportunity to play for india even though he had a very good first class record. :angelo
 
Amol Muzumdar never got an opportunity to play for india even though he had a very good first class record. :angelo

Amol was indeed a very good FC player.The closest he came to Indian team was in late 90s,at a time when Indian team's middle order compromised of Dravid,SG and Azhar.He was again in contention in 2000s,but rumour is that SG chose Laxman and Viru over him.
 
Fawad Alam is very unlucky guy.He is already 31.Its unfortunate that a person with an FC avg of 56 cant get into the team while far lesser players are filling their boots in UAE.

Can anyone tell me why was he dropped?
 
batting and spin alone won't make you champion overseas
 
Shikhar Dhawan praises BCCI for making domestic cricket mandatory, citing Virat Kohli as an example, while speaking to the media on the sidelines of the India-Pakistan clash in the ICC Champions Trophy 2025:

"It's a very good decision. My only thing is that players should not be overloaded, that's all. But people will monitor that."

"It's a good thing that current players should play domestic as well -- like how Virat played (for Delhi a few weeks back) and the stadium got packed. At the same time, they should be rested enough."
 
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