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Indus vally civilisation

Pakpak

ODI Debutant
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I am not sure what Pakistan is doing to counter India robbing this history?

I was reading a lot about it recently, I mean the picutre of its map on Wikipedia shows 90% of the entire civilization was in Pakistan. It'd be like France claiming Roman history. The cultural theft India gets away with is unreal.
 
I am not sure what Pakistan is doing to counter India robbing this history?

I was reading a lot about it recently, I mean the picutre of its map on Wikipedia shows 90% of the entire civilization was in Pakistan. It'd be like France claiming Roman history. The cultural theft India gets away with is unreal.

There is no robbing. Come and share our common heritage.

It’s you guys who wanted to create a separate Arab identity. What have you ever done to honour your connection to Indus River civilization? Please elaborate
 
It is difficult for Pakistan to claim the identity because many Pakistanis believe it to be an era of jahaliya.

But you are completely right. It should be claimed, owned and ownered. If the Egyptians and Persians can honour their pre Islamic pasts then we must be able to also.
 
its pakistanis fault, pakistanis created this narrative of the foundation of its history being in the invasion of mohamad bin qasim. if pakistanis truly owned their history it would be the most fascinating culutral tapestry, alas, there was far too much insecurity in the political and religious classes to allow for that. pakistans true history, from the IVC to the greco indian kingdoms, the eras of the arabs, turks and brits and becoming one of the most unlikeliest nuclear powers is fascinating, but opens people up to the idea of trying to understand or make sense of their own indetities, which reduces the influece of the powers that be.
 
The territorial heritage of Pakistan is quite rich. Before the Common Era and in the early Common Era, compared with other areas on the subcontinent - primarily the Gangetic Valley, Deccan and Kalinga - the Indus Valley was subject to great disruption from a variety of conquerors from the north and west. Persians (under Cyrus), Greeks (under Alexander), Greek-Bactrians, Scythians, Parthians, and the Kushans, all at some point conquered the Indus areas.

Sitting at the cross-roads of various regions - Central Asia, West Asia and South Asia - even today, Pakistan’s geographic significance provides it with a larger than life personality than would otherwise have been the case for a nation of this size.

Of course, the Pakistan idea as it was projected by its ideologues afforded at best an attenuated place to history and geography.

In the striking words of one academic, Jon Dorschner, “Pakistan was a state that inhabited the imagination rather than a particular place.” As many historians - most notably Faisal Devji - have argued, Pakistan as an idea transcended, and even negated, what was deemed in many other European nationalisms as indispensable motifs, namely a collective attachment to ‘blood’ and to ‘soil’, however mythical in reality these attachments may have been. The sense of belonging and attachment to an ancestral or historic territory and the myth of common origins, of common ancestry, were apparent in many European nationalist movements. It was also present in the Indian nationalist movement.

The ‘romantic’ form of nationalism, which rests on history and geography contrasts with the ‘enlightenment’ form of nationalism, where unity ultimately rests on belief and volition. Pakistan belonged to the latter, its sense of itself resting not on concrete geographic anchorage, nor on the membership of ‘blood-based’ community, but simply on belonging to a shared religion and the power of faith, will and belief.

We see this vision manifested in the national anthem. As Pakistani historian Ali Usman Qasmi notes, there is “the idea of land as an abstract space. None of the regions of Pakistan is named. This is in sharp contrast with the Indian anthem…The thrust of the Pakistani anthem was futuristic, meant to serve as an inaugural moment of state formation that promised a prosperous future with an earnest prayer to God to protect the homeland. The anthem does not engage with the past, other than referring to the state as the embodiment of the past’s glory.”

It is its very novelty as an idea that is both its strength and weakness. On the one side its form as a political idea provided a certain dynamism, being future-oriented and therefore open to experimentation. On the other hand as an idea it has been much contested and fought over. As the former Civil Servant and now academic, Akbar Ahmed put it: “the idea of Pakistan is greater than the reality of the country.”
 
Does Pakistan acknowledge any of its Pre-Islamic history? Do they celebrate any of the heroes of the land? All of your missiles are Islamic invader names. Your heroes are all Muslims.
Even when Islamic invaders attacked subcontinent, they called the land Hindustan. Pakistan identity is less than 100 years old.
 
Does Pakistan acknowledge any of its Pre-Islamic history? Do they celebrate any of the heroes of the land? All of your missiles are Islamic invader names. Your heroes are all Muslims.
Even when Islamic invaders attacked subcontinent, they called the land Hindustan. Pakistan identity is less than 100 years old.

India's identity is also less than 100 years old. :inti
 
The territorial heritage of Pakistan is quite rich. Before the Common Era and in the early Common Era, compared with other areas on the subcontinent - primarily the Gangetic Valley, Deccan and Kalinga - the Indus Valley was subject to great disruption from a variety of conquerors from the north and west. Persians (under Cyrus), Greeks (under Alexander), Greek-Bactrians, Scythians, Parthians, and the Kushans, all at some point conquered the Indus areas.

Sitting at the cross-roads of various regions - Central Asia, West Asia and South Asia - even today, Pakistan’s geographic significance provides it with a larger than life personality than would otherwise have been the case for a nation of this size.

Of course, the Pakistan idea as it was projected by its ideologues afforded at best an attenuated place to history and geography.

In the striking words of one academic, Jon Dorschner, “Pakistan was a state that inhabited the imagination rather than a particular place.” As many historians - most notably Faisal Devji - have argued, Pakistan as an idea transcended, and even negated, what was deemed in many other European nationalisms as indispensable motifs, namely a collective attachment to ‘blood’ and to ‘soil’, however mythical in reality these attachments may have been. The sense of belonging and attachment to an ancestral or historic territory and the myth of common origins, of common ancestry, were apparent in many European nationalist movements. It was also present in the Indian nationalist movement.

The ‘romantic’ form of nationalism, which rests on history and geography contrasts with the ‘enlightenment’ form of nationalism, where unity ultimately rests on belief and volition. Pakistan belonged to the latter, its sense of itself resting not on concrete geographic anchorage, nor on the membership of ‘blood-based’ community, but simply on belonging to a shared religion and the power of faith, will and belief.

We see this vision manifested in the national anthem. As Pakistani historian Ali Usman Qasmi notes, there is “the idea of land as an abstract space. None of the regions of Pakistan is named. This is in sharp contrast with the Indian anthem…The thrust of the Pakistani anthem was futuristic, meant to serve as an inaugural moment of state formation that promised a prosperous future with an earnest prayer to God to protect the homeland. The anthem does not engage with the past, other than referring to the state as the embodiment of the past’s glory.”

It is its very novelty as an idea that is both its strength and weakness. On the one side its form as a political idea provided a certain dynamism, being future-oriented and therefore open to experimentation. On the other hand as an idea it has been much contested and fought over. As the former Civil Servant and now academic, Akbar Ahmed put it: “the idea of Pakistan is greater than the reality of the country.”
Beautiful post. For me, Pakistan as an idea is far greater than just soil and blood.
 
India's identity is also less than 100 years old. :inti
It was Hindustan even during Mughal empire. During British Raj, it was India. That included your Bangladesh land too.

India still uses the word Hindustan or Bharat to refer to India in Hindi/Urdu.
 
Problem with IVC is that Indus script is not deciphered. This means that unlike Egyptian, Persian and Greek civilization, we know very little of IVC in terms of their Kings, beliefs etc. How can a modern day Pakistani associate with some ruins, mounds and ornaments that are left of IVC ? Now government can include IVC in curriculum but I doubt it will have much effect.

Ideology and identity stems from human subconscious and no government can artificially instill it in a nation. Example, Nehru tried to instill the idea of a secular united Hindustan but failed on both occasions; first with creation of Pakistan and later with rise of Hindutva in India.

That being said, Pakistani education system (during middle school) should include teaching world history objectively and that should include IVC as well.
 
It was Hindustan even during Mughal empire. During British Raj, it was India. That included your Bangladesh land too.

India still uses the word Hindustan or Bharat to refer to India in Hindi/Urdu.
Nehru was smart in adopting the name 'India' from British. But just because he copy pasted a name from Brits doesn't mean that you own our history as well.
 
Does Pakistan acknowledge any of its Pre-Islamic history? Do they celebrate any of the heroes of the land? All of your missiles are Islamic invader names. Your heroes are all Muslims.
Even when Islamic invaders attacked subcontinent, they called the land Hindustan. Pakistan identity is less than 100 years old.
Early invaders made a clear distinction between Al-Sindh and Al-Hind. Aitzaz Ahsan in 'Indus Saga' describes this in detail.

The idea of Hindustan gained strength during the times of Dehli Sultanate and peaked during Mughal reign. Manan Asif argues this in his book 'The Loss of Hindustan: The invention of India'.
 
Does Pakistan acknowledge any of its Pre-Islamic history? Do they celebrate any of the heroes of the land? All of your missiles are Islamic invader names. Your heroes are all Muslims.
Even when Islamic invaders attacked subcontinent, they called the land Hindustan. Pakistan identity is less than 100 years old.

When nations are relatively new like Pakistan and israel, then you will find that they tend to overload on the part of their identity which sets them apart, in Pakistan's case it is Islam, in israel's case it is zionism. As they mature you would expect a more balanced perspective.
 
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