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Is Azhar Ali the only Pakistani who would not get into the West Indies team?

Junaids

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The West Indies are slightly ahead in their first Test in England, although they are going to have to score around 200 to win.

But looking at the two touring teams currently in England, I can't help thinking that Azhar Ali is the only Pakistani who would not walk into the West Indies team!

Jason Holder is clearly superior to the 35 year old version of Azhar Ali, even as a batsman.

Abid Ali is better than Brathwaite.
Shan Masood is better than Campbell.
Babar Azam is better than Hope.
Asad Shafiq is better than Brooks.
Mohammad Rizwan is better than Dowrich.
Shadab Khan is better than Chase.
Shaheen Shah Afridi is better than Gabriel.
Mohammad Abbas is better than Roach.
Naseem Shah is better than Joseph.
Faheem is as decent an all-rounder as Blackwood is a good batsman. Dead heat for those two!

Basically there's only Azhar Ali who is no longer good enough to get into the West Indies team!
 
I'd say Dowrich and Rizwan are close, but Rizwan is a tad ahead - IMO Dowrich is quite underrated.

I'd definitely take one of Roach/Gabriel over Naseem currently.

And Holder over Faheem any day.

Roston Chase over Shadab always.

Pakistan is definintely a better team than WI, but I'd say there's around 3-4 players on WI's team that are better.
 
Shai Hope is better than all Pakistani batsmen except Babar.

All other WI batsmen are ordinary.
 
How many test centuries does shadab Khan have? And fifers thattheir fast bowlers have?
 
How many test centuries does shadab Khan have? And fifers thattheir fast bowlers have?
It’s not about what people used to be capable of.

Even two years ago, when Azhar was 33 years old, Shadab scored three times as many runs in 3 Tests in England and Ireland as he did.

Similarly, the 20 year old Shaheen is twice as good as the 32 year old Kemar Roach.
 
Hope in place of Azhar
Dowrich in place of Rizwan
Holder in place of Faheem
I dont think we are a much superior team to WI. If we both play against each other in Eng, then I believe both teams have equal probability of winning.
 
Abid Ali played 3 Tests against SL and Ban at home. Way too early to say he's better than Brathwaite. Same for Naseem Shah.

And no. Abbas is not better than Roach lol.

Shaheen/Gabriel , Rizwan/Dowrich and Shadab/Chase are all debatable.
 
An inspirational captian like Holder can do wonders while we are stuck with same mental midgets and boring captain
 
WI pace attack since start of 2018 is second only to India in terms of bowling average in Tests, we are 6th on the list so don't know why you'd rate our pacers ahead of them.
 
Abid Ali is no where near Braithwaite. Braithwaite is very underrated and very experienced but still younger than abid.

Dowrich and rixwan are close

Holder and Gabriel are better than abbas and Naseem.

That only leaves babar and Shaheen, azhar and asad are past their expiry date
 
I'm pretty sure this windies bowling line up will obliterate Pakistani batsmen in seaming conditions
 
What a funny thread
Windies would be more than happy to get a seasoned 40+ avg batsman like Azhar in their XI.
Rest of comparisons are ludicrous to say least.

Shadab who can't even make Pak test XI against Eng is apparently better than Chase who despite being batting allrounder has an 8-fer against Eng

Naseem is better than Alzarri despite both being equally young raw exciting talents

Two series old Abid Ali is better than Brathwaite who has scored 100+ and 90+ in a test win in England

Post reveals more about author's biases than any comparison between Pak and WI
 
What a funny thread
Windies would be more than happy to get a seasoned 40+ avg batsman like Azhar in their XI.
Rest of comparisons are ludicrous to say least.

Shadab who can't even make Pak test XI against Eng is apparently better than Chase who despite being batting allrounder has an 8-fer against Eng

Naseem is better than Alzarri despite both being equally young raw exciting talents

Two series old Abid Ali is better than Brathwaite who has scored 100+ and 90+ in a test win in England

Post reveals more about author's biases than any comparison between Pak and WI

That was like 5 years ago dude. He's now a 27 avg batsman in the last 2 years and an outside Asia, 12 avg batsman.
 
Blackwood is playing the sort of innings that Faheem couldn't match with his output in both facets combined. As of now Chase is twice the cricketer Shadab is, although Shadab probably has a higher ceiling.
 
I think 4 or 5 Pakistani players would not get into the West Indies Test team.

Gabriel is better than any of our pacers
Holder is a type of player we don't have.
Dowrich has more guts than either of our keepers in Tests.
 
There are about 5-6 West Indians who would get into the Pakistan side.
 
There are about 5-6 West Indians who would get into the Pakistan side.

I think 4 or 5 Pakistani players would not get into the West Indies Test team.

Gabriel is better than any of our pacers
Holder is a type of player we don't have.
Dowrich has more guts than either of our keepers in Tests.
Holder.

Gabriel, possibly.

I absolutely can’t see anyone else.
 
Holder.

Gabriel, possibly.

I absolutely can’t see anyone else.

Because you are biased - I actually don’t want to use the word troll here. What you are doing is triggering gullible fans here with outrageous comments regarding PCT and player, which I have decided to call out. This one is probably seventh or eighth addition in that effort which I had listed few weeks back.
 
One is 7th ranked team and another is 8th ranked team. Delusional to think that only 1-2 players from WI will make into Pakistani team.

This non-sense of Pakistani team getting judged based on petential is getting old. Some posters will always claim that last 3 years doesn't matter becasue these are new players. Revolving excuse of transition is decades old now.
 
In a combined 12 men team (one extra bowling option depending on wicket), this will be my picks

1. Abid
2. B’waite
3. Hope
4. Babar
5. Asad (Probably Blackwood deserves a spot after this innings)
6. Chase
7. +Dorwich (probably better WK and definitely clutch batter under pressure)
8. *Holder
9. Roach/Yasir (depending on wicket - unless it’s a green top, Yasir plays mostly)
10. Shaheen
11. Gabriel

That’s 5 PAK players, 6 WIN. Only debate could be Haris or Shan over B’waite. I keep WK slot open also, but Rizwan has to play more Tests to confirm this spot.
 
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One is 7th ranked team and another is 8th ranked team. Delusional to think that only 1-2 players from WI will make into Pakistani team.

This non-sense of Pakistani team getting judged based on petential is getting old. Some posters will always claim that last 3 years doesn't matter becasue these are new players. Revolving excuse of transition is decades old now.

To be precise, if Pakistan had played and won the Second Test v Bangladesh they would be in 3rd place in the World Test Championship.

As it is, they are only marginally behind New Zealand and England in 5th place.
 
Here is how top 20 ranks of bowling looks like,

Ind - 6 bowlers
Aus - 5 bowlers
NZ - 3 bowlers
WI - 3 bowlers
SA/Pak - 1 each
 
West Indies will hammer us on seaming, bouncy wickets in the Caribbean next year.
 
To be precise, if Pakistan had played and won the Second Test v Bangladesh they would be in 3rd place in the World Test Championship.

As it is, they are only marginally behind New Zealand and England in 5th place.

They are ranked 7th just above WI. That's the accumulative performance in recent years. Also, Pakistan has been in that region for a while so it's not about some temporary decline.

If and when Paksitan can remain in top 4 for one year, then situation will change.

BD , if and buts, test championship -- all of that doesn't wash away poor performacne in the last few years.

If you are still in doubt then here is what W/L looks like for all teams in the last 3 years.

last3.jpg
 
They are ranked 7th just above WI. That's the accumulative performance in recent years. Also, Pakistan has been in that region for a while so it's not about some temporary decline.

If and when Paksitan can remain in top 4 for one year, then situation will change.

BD , if and buts, test championship -- all of that doesn't wash away poor performacne in the last few years.

If you are still in doubt then here is what W/L looks like for all teams in the last 3 years.

View attachment 102147

It's the typical our team is better than our record nonsense that fans will always turn to.

Right after this Windies win against England, it looks even worse.
 
In a combined 12 men team (one extra bowling option depending on wicket), this will be my picks

1. Abid
2. B’waite
3. Hope
4. Babar
5. Asad (Probably Blackwood deserves a spot after this innings)
6. Chase
7. +Dorwich (probably better WK and definitely clutch batter under pressure)
8. *Holder
9. Roach/Yasir (depending on wicket - unless it’s a green top, Yasir plays mostly)
10. Shaheen
11. Gabriel

That’s 5 PAK players, 6 WIN. Only debate could be Haris or Shan over B’waite. I keep WK slot open also, but Rizwan has to play more Tests to confirm this spot.

I have a lot of respect for this Windies team and I feel that this line up is pretty reasonable.

I would definitley select Shan over Braithwaite. Braithwate is a good cricketer but Shan V 2.0 seems more promising and is less ultra defensive.

I also dont think Shai hope is a shoe in. His career hasnt been the best in all honesty, he hasnt fulfilled his talent. Him vs Haris is a 50/50 for me.

Overall I think the OP is hilariously wrong on how much he overrates Pakistani players against a very talented Windies Side.
 
obviously not. ridiculous thread. there isnt a bowler going who i would drop for shannon gabriel
shane dowrich has a bit about him too. pak would love a wicky bat as good as him
 
i meant to say, there isnt a bowler going who i would drop shannon gabriel for
 
It's the typical our team is better than our record nonsense that fans will always turn to.

Right after this Windies win against England, it looks even worse.

Not all fans do that but some posters come up with statements like team being new but more talented than others without seeing actual sustained performance. I also think that Pakistani bowling prospects look decent right now, but I will hold my horses and not claim that they are among the best. If some one is really good then it will show up sooner or later in performance like Babar.
 
Here is how top 20 ranks of bowling looks like,

Ind - 6 bowlers
Aus - 5 bowlers
NZ - 3 bowlers
WI - 3 bowlers
SA/Pak - 1 each

All the more reason then to have 5 bowlers so that Shaheen, Naseem and Abbas can bowl fewer, shorter, faster spells.
 
I think 4 or 5 Pakistani players would not get into the West Indies Test team.

Gabriel is better than any of our pacers
Holder is a type of player we don't have.
Dowrich has more guts than either of our keepers in Tests.

With respect:

1. I think that Mohammad Rizwan is gutsy - look at how he performed as the badly-selected (Iftikhar! Musa!) team was getting splattered in Australia.

2. Pakistanis tend to fail to realise that rankings and ratings always lag a couple of years behind.

It's why Pakistan would have gone up to 3rd place in the (real-time) World Test Championship had they won the cancelled Second Test v Bangladesh, even though in the World Test rankings they are down in 7th place.

When you look at Shaheen Shah Afridi, Babar Azam and Mohammad Rizwan, they are actually in real-time close to currently being the best in the world in Tests in their role. And Shan Masood, Abid Ali and Mohammad Abbas are at a high level too. There is really only Azhar Ali who in real time is clearly a has-been.

3. This West Indies team has a wafer-thin batting line-up. I honestly don't think that anyone would argue that Kraigg Brathwaite is better than Abid Ali, or that John Campbell is better than Shan Masood.

But neither is Shai Hope (who averages below 27 after 32 Tests at the age of almost 27) in any way better than Asad Shafiq, who averages 39.20 after 74 Tests.

And Roston Chase (averaging 31.8 after 33 Tests and 28 years old) certainly isn't a better Test batsman than Babar Azam.

Meanwhile in terms of a wicketkeeper, Shane Dowrich is almost 29 years of age and averages 30.5 after 32 test matches. Mohammad Rizwan is marginally younger and after just 6 Tests averages 32.1, but those 6 Tests include scores in Australia of 37, 95, 0 and 45, which suggest a top class batsman.

(While Rizwan was scoring those 177 runs in those 4 innings in Australia, Azhar Ali scored 39, 5, 9 and 9 for a total of 62 runs).

The West Indies team consists of a wafer-thin batting line-up to support a world class pace bowling all-rounder and one very good but not top class quick bowler.

Pakistan has one world class batsman (Babar Azam), three other international class batsmen better than any West Indian (Shan Masood, Abid Ali and Asad Shafiq), a world class wicketkeeper-batsman (Mohammad Rizwan), a world class fast bowler (Shaheen Shah Afridi), an international class medium pacer (Abbas) and the world's outstanding young pace prospect (Naseem Shah).

I don't understand why Pakistan followers don't recognize the golden generation that is beginning now, with Babar Azam, Mohammad Rizwan, Shaheen Shah Afridi and Naseem Shah!
 
All the more reason then to have 5 bowlers so that Shaheen, Naseem and Abbas can bowl fewer, shorter, faster spells.

As long as they can bat a bit, 5 bowlers will help. Yasir may be fine in Eng, but if he bowls like his usual self then there is no pressure from one end. In that situation, pacers get overbowled.
 
Agree with Junaids. Man to man, Pakistan is vastly superior to WI and England.

Also, as [MENTION=132916]Junaids[/MENTION] had earlier pointed out, Pakistan is probably the most marketable team in the world due to the overflowing talent. This could have a psychological impact on England’s team.

This series should be a cake walk for Pakistan.
 
Not all fans do that but some posters come up with statements like team being new but more talented than others without seeing actual sustained performance. I also think that Pakistani bowling prospects look decent right now, but I will hold my horses and not claim that they are among the best. If some one is really good then it will show up sooner or later in performance like Babar.

Agreed.

While I will admit there are a lot of young players who have either just been added or recently started playing internationally that look to have potential, to somehow juxtapose that with puffing of our chest is a bit rich.

While I am excited for Naseem Shah, Haider Ali, what we already get from Shaheen and Babar, after that it’s an amalgamation of a lot of tried and tested failures and/or mediocre cricketers who will have the off performance here and there, but are nothing to get excited about.

Even a young player like Mohammad Hasnain seems to just be young but I don’t see a good career to come.

We have that sub 500 record and the following players have been in and out of the team for about the last 3-5 years: Hafeez, Shafiq, Imam, Abid Ali (whom I actually like but of course he made his debut on accident at 31), Faqar Zaman, Yasir Shah....

I was going to write them all out but essentially what I realized is there’s a lot more of more of the same than new and improved so just from a numbers basis to think that a select few of potential star talent can carry the usual suspects is wishful thinking.

You can be hopeful and think Abid Ali who looks fantastic at 32 is older but already a good product, finds some chemistry with one of the most disappointing players in our test captain Azhar Ali who seemed to be one of the safest bets in Pakistan pre Misbah’s retirement, a man who once scored 300, who I think now has an average since his departure of sub 30 in three full years.

You could hope Haider Ali and Babar are that middle pair tandem, two players who will hold together Pakistan’s middle order for the next 10-15 years. This may actually be possible but again Ali has yet to put the jersey on yet so I wouldn’t hold my breath until I see it in action.

You could hope Asad Shafiq, the most invested batsmen maybe in the last 30 years in Pakistan cricket, who has the talent that we keep hearing about in the nets (Don’t buy it), but somehow when the bright lights come out, he fails at hilarious levels, only to have a career saving performance in an innings that doesn’t matter.

You can hope one of Hafeez or Malik or the hilariously chosen when his careers almost over Fawad Alam (who didn’t get selected when he was scoring the most domestic runs that almost any player ever has in Pakistan and even world history) can find some semblance of consistency when they are closer to 40 than 30.

I actually like Rizwan and think he’s a solid batsman keeper but knowing Pakistan they will go back to Sarfraz as is the standard.

Bowling wise we have one good bowler, a young potential bowler, Mohammad Abbas who also has been consistent but after that a disarray with the rest, with the spinners being so horrendously bad that to call them international caliber would be dishonest at the test level. Shah finished, Shadab a nothing player.

The amalgamation gets you the same old song and a little bit of hope sprinkled on top. You can be hopeful but obviously few want to be realistic.

Our bowling on the whole looks good with the fast bowlers, we have nothing to offer with spin bowling and minus one star, we have a bunch of mediocrity with the bat who are all in their thirties with the exception here and there who are a bit younger.

If anything this looks like it always has, mediocre players with some hope of players to represent the future, only to become the mediocre players, and a small circle of new faces to again, represent the future.
 
It's not only about players but grit too. I don't think with mental midgets we can anything like 200 on day 5 with 4 wickets down
 
It's not only about players but grit too. I don't think with mental midgets we can anything like 200 on day 5 with 4 wickets down

I'll never ever forgive Azhar Ali botching a chase of 175 vs NZ in Abu Dhabi.

That was the biggest show of cowardice from a senior player I had ever seen. Yet we rewarded this coward with the captaincy.
 
Not all fans do that but some posters come up with statements like team being new but more talented than others without seeing actual sustained performance. I also think that Pakistani bowling prospects look decent right now, but I will hold my horses and not claim that they are among the best. If some one is really good then it will show up sooner or later in performance like Babar.

Pakistanis have been hiding behind the "youngsters are still maturing" excuse for years. Despite the nauseating hype amongst some fans about our young pacers, they've done jack against top opposition thus far.

There's no question for me in all conditions that the West Indies have far superior pace depth.

You want a line and length seamer ? You got Kemar Roach and Jason Holder, with the latter providing extra bounce from a fuller length.

Out and out pace is provided by Shannon Gabriel who also is getting the ball to move sideways and hits the deck hard. Alzarri Joseph is no slouch either though not as quick.

Oshane Thomas is a frightening prospect once he gets more FC experience and remains fit. Chemar Holder is tall and helped Barbados win the domestic 4 day title, and many of their former greats rate him. They'll bounce our softies into submission next summer when Pakistan tours the Caribbean on those seaming, bouncy pitches while Misbah'll keep picking losers like Imran Khan and Musa Khan.

The only missing element from WI bowling is a quality spinner hence repeated hammerings in Asia (combined with an inability to play spin).

Our guys meanwhile are too one dimensional. We've been:

- Garbage with the new ball for years
- Possess like a hundred generic left arm skiddy seamers
- Guys with pace but zero skill
- No tall right arm quick who hits the deck hard hence why we get slaughtered in Australia and South Africa.
 
After this thread, feel like our boys should just fly back to Pakistan. When the majority here have decided we will get mauled, wonder why they are even bothering to show up.

Having said that, a lot of West Indies players will walk into the current Pakistan test team. OP is very optimistic.
 
Pakistanis have been hiding behind the "youngsters are still maturing" excuse for years. Despite the nauseating hype amongst some fans about our young pacers, they've done jack against top opposition thus far.

There's no question for me in all conditions that the West Indies have far superior pace depth.

You want a line and length seamer ? You got Kemar Roach and Jason Holder, with the latter providing extra bounce from a fuller length.

Out and out pace is provided by Shannon Gabriel who also is getting the ball to move sideways and hits the deck hard. Alzarri Joseph is no slouch either though not as quick.

Oshane Thomas is a frightening prospect once he gets more FC experience and remains fit. Chemar Holder is tall and helped Barbados win the domestic 4 day title, and many of their former greats rate him. They'll bounce our softies into submission next summer when Pakistan tours the Caribbean on those seaming, bouncy pitches while Misbah'll keep picking losers like Imran Khan and Musa Khan.

The only missing element from WI bowling is a quality spinner hence repeated hammerings in Asia (combined with an inability to play spin).

Our guys meanwhile are too one dimensional. We've been:

- Garbage with the new ball for years
- Possess like a hundred generic left arm skiddy seamers
- Guys with pace but zero skill
- No tall right arm quick who hits the deck hard hence why we get slaughtered in Australia and South Africa.

I think that Shaheen Shah Afridi and Naseem Shah are the outstanding Under-23 pace bowlers in the world.

I think that Babar Azam is one of the top three batsmen in the world.

I think that Mohammad Rizwan is the best wicketkeeper-batsman in the world, at the level that Watling was at 2-3 years ago before his age-related decline.

I think that any other country in the world (apart from India) would be grooming Shadab Khan for Test cricket, because he is good enough to bat in the Top Seven now (and hopefully at 6 longer-term) and to be a useful but not specialist leg-spinner - just like Mushtaq Mohammad.

That makes 5 players with at least 2-3 World Test Championship cycles ahead of them who would be considered special talents by every team in the world. And frankly, that's generally enough if the other players are people like Shan Masood (now) or Mohammad Abbas (now) who would also get into most other Test teams.

The main problem is Misbah's tendency to pad his team with has-beens in decline but the talent is actually better for Pakistan than it has been for many years.
 
For a combined side, Chase, Holder and Gabriel would def make it from WI, and I'd probably put Dowrich in as well. Braithwaite, Blackwood? could potentially also make a combined side
 
The West Indies are slightly ahead in their first Test in England, although they are going to have to score around 200 to win.

But looking at the two touring teams currently in England, I can't help thinking that Azhar Ali is the only Pakistani who would not walk into the West Indies team!

Jason Holder is clearly superior to the 35 year old version of Azhar Ali, even as a batsman.

Abid Ali is better than Brathwaite.
Shan Masood is better than Campbell.
Babar Azam is better than Hope.
Asad Shafiq is better than Brooks.
Mohammad Rizwan is better than Dowrich.
Shadab Khan is better than Chase.
Shaheen Shah Afridi is better than Gabriel.
Mohammad Abbas is better than Roach.
Naseem Shah is better than Joseph.
Faheem is as decent an all-rounder as Blackwood is a good batsman. Dead heat for those two!

Basically there's only Azhar Ali who is no longer good enough to get into the West Indies team!

Asad Shafiq is not better than Brooks
Rizwan is not better than Dowich
Shadab has not proved anything yet in test to be considered better than Chase, not at all
There is no all rounder in Pakistan or any where in the world , other than stokes, better than Holder.
Gabriel is in good form, hard to pick between his and Shaheen
yes Naseem is better then Joseph.

Faheem should be discussed here, not of international class.
 
Asad Shafiq is not better than Brooks
Rizwan is not better than Dowich
Shadab has not proved anything yet in test to be considered better than Chase, not at all
There is no all rounder in Pakistan or any where in the world , other than stokes, better than Holder.
Gabriel is in good form, hard to pick between his and Shaheen
yes Naseem is better then Joseph.

Faheem should be discussed here, not of international class.
Brooks and Shafiq are both in their thirties.

One has 213 Test runs, including a single century v Afghanistan.

The other has 4,500 Test runs, including Test centuries in Australia and South Africa!
 
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