Is it possible to set agendas aside and focus on objective analysis?

[Farabi]

Ive noticed a trend where many people have already made up their minds about a certain player’s quality and caliber.
As soon as a game is completed, they make sure to target that player irrespective of actual performance and match circumstances.
Look at the warm up game today. Babar and Rizwan anchored Pakistan beautifully and 350 is always a good score no matter the pitch and conditions. But there are 3-4 threads on Strike Rate. What? You need 400 to win now?
Specifically Rizwan, who averages 63 with a SR of 93 in 2023 at no4, is a target of criticism day in and out, even though he played another gem today.

Are we not capable of seeing the lack of quality in the bowling when Shaheen and Naseem are missing? Did we not know where Hassan Ali, Wasim Jr, Nawaz, and Agha S stand as bowlers?

 

[Cric1234]

What a merit based selection Hasan Ali is 9 wickets at an average of 42 and an economy rate of 6.8 since the last World Cup.

 

[Sherazkhalid]

Ive noticed a trend where many people have already made up their minds about a certain player’s quality and caliber.
As soon as a game is completed, they make sure to target that player irrespective of actual performance and match circumstances.
Look at the warm up game today. Babar and Rizwan anchored Pakistan beautifully and 350 is always a good score no matter the pitch and conditions. But there are 3-4 threads on Strike Rate. What? You need 400 to win now?
Specifically Rizwan, who averages 63 with a SR of 93 in 2023 at no4, is a target of criticism day in and out, even though he played another gem today.

Are we not capable of seeing the lack of quality in the bowling when Shaheen and Naseem are missing? Did we not know where Hassan Ali, Wasim Jr, Nawaz, and Agha S stand as bowlers?

That is the whole problem, being top ICC ranked players, they should know that our bowling is weak and rather than stats padding they need to get on with times and have a SR of more than 100 these days, now if you say there is no one in top order and then bottom order other than them to stabilize the team and they played perfectly according to the situation then ding ding ding, who selected this team, was this team selected solely so that the stats padders cannot be blamed and have no competition and they stay in the team whether the team wins or not?

 

[Rana]

This team is a farce

This selection is a farce

You can’t force anyone to back a farce

 

[Rana]

Hassan Ali picked because he has a great average when it comes to tweets supporting Babar

Mohammad Nawaz picked over Imad because of favouritism

Hasan Ali picked for ‘experience required in big tournaments’ but Sarfaraz not picked for whatever reasons

-Let people support what they want.

 

[Farabi]

Hassan Ali picked because he has a great average when it comes to tweets supporting Babar

Mohammad Nawaz picked over Imad because of favouritism

Hasan Ali picked for ‘experience required in big tournaments’ but Sarfaraz not picked for whatever reasons

-Let people support what they want.

I don’t disagree with this sentiment. Create threads and post about weak bowling, but folks seem to be more concerned with Babar and Rizwan and their SR after this game no?

 

[Rana]

I don’t disagree with this sentiment. Create threads and post about weak bowling, but folks seem to be more concerned with Babar and Rizwan and their SR after this game no?

The thing with Babar and Rizwan

They are experienced enough to know that a wicket is a 350+ wicket

Yet they still cannot quite work it out

 

[Farabi]

The thing with Babar and Rizwan

They are experienced enough to know that a wicket is a 350+ wicket

Yet they still cannot quite work it out

Really? So you’re saying that Pak needs 400 to win. Wow
To me, 350 is a good score on every ground if you have complete bowling unit

 

[Rana]

Really? So you’re saying that Pak needs 400 to win. Wow
To me, 350 is a good score on every ground if you have complete bowling unit

Cricket has changed

Batsman have evolved.

The modern batsman will go for 400 if he bats first, and give it all to chase 400 if he must.

 

[Bilal7]

Hassan Ali picked because he has a great average when it comes to tweets supporting Babar

Mohammad Nawaz picked over Imad because of favouritism

Hasan Ali picked for ‘experience required in big tournaments’ but Sarfaraz not picked for whatever reasons

-Let people support what they want.

Sarfaraz Ahmed is 36 years old and obseleted player. What in the world are you talking about? Why would anyone pick him over Mohammad Haris, when the latter is going to be our future?

 

[Rana]

Sarfaraz Ahmed is 36 years old and obseleted player. What in the world are you talking about? Why would anyone pick him over Mohammad Haris, when the latter is going to be our future?

Once again, you are failing to grasp the crux of the argument.

Maybe I can talk you through it? So what did Babar say when he selected Hassan over everyone?

 

[Farabi]

Cricket has changed

Batsman have evolved.

The modern batsman will go for 400 if he bats first, and give it all to chase 400 if he must.

Surely 350 is still a pretty good score anyway. The way NZ was batting and Pak was bowling, they could have chased down 400 too!! They 38 balls and 5 wickets still remaining

 

[MenInG]

Once again, you are failing to grasp the crux of the argument.

Maybe I can talk you through it? So what did Babar say when he selected Hassan over everyone?

Babar did not select the team alone

Inzamam was also involved.

 

[Cricket Warrior]

Babar did not select the team alone

Inzamam was also involved.

Hafeez was also involved but nobody bothered to listen him

 

[GLORY OF '92]

Babar did not select the team alone

Inzamam was also involved.

Are we certain of that?

 

[Rana]

Surely 350 is still a pretty good score anyway. The way NZ was batting and Pak was bowling, they could have chased down 400 too!! They 38 balls and 5 wickets still remaining

To chase down 400,

You need to score 80-100 in the first 10 overs

Pakistan will never do that

 

[Usman Chadda]

Hassan Ali picked because he has a great average when it comes to tweets supporting Babar

Mohammad Nawaz picked over Imad because of favouritism

Hasan Ali picked for ‘experience required in big tournaments’ but Sarfaraz not picked for whatever reasons

-Let people support what they want.

While I am quite sad about Hasan Ali getting picked, we need to ask ourselves something - who could the selectors have gone to?

Hasnain, Ihsanullah and Arshad Iqbal are injured.

 

[Rana]

Babar did not select the team alone

Inzamam was also involved.

Babar was the one who came out with his chest wide open in the press conference and said “we went with Hassan because you need experienced players in big tournaments”

Did he say this or not? So where are Sarfaraz, Amir and Imad on this basis?

 

[ArabKnight]

Ive noticed a trend where many people have already made up their minds about a certain player’s quality and caliber.
As soon as a game is completed, they make sure to target that player irrespective of actual performance and match circumstances.
Look at the warm up game today. Babar and Rizwan anchored Pakistan beautifully and 350 is always a good score no matter the pitch and conditions. But there are 3-4 threads on Strike Rate. What? You need 400 to win now?
Specifically Rizwan, who averages 63 with a SR of 93 in 2023 at no4, is a target of criticism day in and out, even though he played another gem today.

Are we not capable of seeing the lack of quality in the bowling when Shaheen and Naseem are missing? Did we not know where Hassan Ali, Wasim Jr, Nawaz, and Agha S stand as bowlers?

Striking anything less than 150SR against part-timers is a shame. It’s clear many were batting for their positions.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Imad, Nawaz and Shadab are all similar bowlers. Imad has a bowling average of 44.5 in 55 ODIs! What is wrong with people here?

 

[MenInG]

Babar was the one who came out with his chest wide open in the press conference and said “we went with Hassan because you need experienced players in big tournaments”

Did he say this or not? So where are Sarfaraz, Amir and Imad on this basis?

"We need a bowler who can bowl with the new and old ball, so Hassan Ali is the best choice for that": Inzamam-ul-Haq

Inzamam-ul-Haq speaking to the press after announcement of Pakistan's World Cup squad: On Sarfaraz and Imad's non selection: "I do have powers to select players but I cannot close doors on any player; Selection is open for all players, for Sarfaraz and Imad Wasim as well; Imad has not played...

ppforum.pakpassion.net

 

[Farah Sohail]

While I am quite sad about Hasan Ali getting picked, we need to ask ourselves something - who could the selectors have gone to?

Hasnain, Ihsanullah and Arshad Iqbal are injured.

how is Arshad Iqbal injured? He was playing FC cricket recently and is also in Asian games squad… if he was injured, how would he be going in Asian games? Hasnain was injured so they replaced him in Asian games squad but Arshad Iqbal isnt…

 

[Usman Chadda]

how is Arshad Iqbal injured? He was playing FC cricket recently and is also in Asian games squad… if he was injured, how would he be going in Asian games? Hasnain was injured so they replaced him in Asian games squad but Arshad Iqbal isnt…

We had multiple media reports saying he was injured thus couldn’t make the squad.

If he has been overlooked, this is a massive L by the team management. The lad had a 5-wicket haul in the recently concluded Emerging Asia Cup, and bowled quite well against India in the final too.

 

[Farah Sohail]

We had multiple media reports saying he was injured thus couldn’t make the squad.

If he has been overlooked, this is a massive L by the team management. The lad had a 5-wicket haul in the recently concluded Emerging Asia Cup, and bowled quite well against India in the final too.

i think there was a report which said when Hafeez asked for Amir Jamal and Arshad Iqbal in place of Hasan Ali, babar said Arshad Iqbal has fitness issues and theres no performance of Amir Jamal in whote ball..as if Hasan Ali, has any performance in white ball..regarding Arshad , it seems to be a lie….because he was playing FC recently and will now be going to Asian games

 

[Farabi]

i think there was a report which said when Hafeez asked for Amir Jamal and Arshad Iqbal in place of Hasan Ali, babar said Arshad Iqbal has fitness issues and theres no performance of Amir Jamal in whote ball..as if Hasan Ali, has any performance in white ball..regarding Arshad , it seems to be a lie….because he was playing FC recently and will now be going to Asian games

This is an interesting phenomenon in Pak that we need prior experience at the WC. Even though, it’s the surprise inclusions sometimes that inject intensity.

2022 T20 WC: Mohd Haris at no4
2019 WC: Shaheen replacing the “experienced” Wahab and Haris Sohail replacing the experienced Malik.
2017 CT: Fakhar replacing the experienced Ahmed Shahzad injected the oomph.

But by far the biggest and game changing was the injection of Amir in 2009 WC.

I am not saying throw in the rookie. Just saying that current form is extremely important and cannot be ignored.

Some mistakes:
1. Not incorporating Amir back into the mix at least 6 months ago, Since we lack a new ball bowlers.
2. Not giving games to Abrar and Saim. Both have a lot of talent and could have been the X factors.
3. Not developing Arshad Iqbal as a new ball bowler and backup to Naseem.

 

[ahmadharis1]

If there was any merit and logic to the selection:

-Players wouldn't be fast tracked to the team based on a handful of PSL matches
-Sahibzada Farhan would have had a extended run in the ODI team after his excellent domestic performances
-Saud Shakeel would have been in the Test/ODI teams about 3 years earlier than he did
-Zafar Gohar would be our premier spinner in Tests and ODIs and is still probably the best spinner in Pakistan
-Usman Shinwari would have received a comeback ODI series after his injury instead of being dropped forever
-Mohammad Nawaz and Hassan Ali continuing to be select despite their constant failures and chokes
-Players wouldn't be labeled as allrounders for having a batting average below 20. I can buy Faheem Ashraf as a decent test bat but he and Mohammad Wasim are far from all rounders.
-Players wouldn't be selected for one match then inexplicably dropped forever. Tabish Khan, Arshad Iqbal, Usman Shinwari in tests, Zafar Gohar, Mir Hamza. Don't select a player unless you're going to give them at least 5-10 matches to cement a spot. Tired of seeing players toil in domestics, earn their selection, then get ignored, regardless of how they performed. It's a slap in the face when they are passed over for a overhyped PSL star who can't be bothered to play first class cricket


Instead we get players who've played 5 first class matches thrown into the deep end in the international arena, a stubbornness to have any sense of forward thinking, a backwards thinking management which refuses to modernize and continue to select based on feelings.

We're not going to win any tournaments until we make these systemic changes and have patience in a rebuild.


end of rant.

 

[Farabi]

If there was any merit and logic to the selection:

-Players wouldn't be fast tracked to the team based on a handful of PSL matches
-Sahibzada Farhan would have had a extended run in the ODI team after his excellent domestic performances
-Saud Shakeel would have been in the Test/ODI teams about 3 years earlier than he did
-Zafar Gohar would be our premier spinner in Tests and ODIs and is still probably the best spinner in Pakistan
-Usman Shinwari would have received a comeback ODI series after his injury instead of being dropped forever
-Mohammad Nawaz and Hassan Ali continuing to be select despite their constant failures and chokes
-Players wouldn't be labeled as allrounders for having a batting average below 20. I can buy Faheem Ashraf as a decent test bat but he and Mohammad Wasim are far from all rounders.
-Players wouldn't be selected for one match then inexplicably dropped forever. Tabish Khan, Arshad Iqbal, Usman Shinwari in tests, Zafar Gohar, Mir Hamza. Don't select a player unless you're going to give them at least 5-10 matches to cement a spot. Tired of seeing players toil in domestics, earn their selection, then get ignored, regardless of how they performed. It's a slap in the face when they are passed over for a overhyped PSL star who can't be bothered to play first class cricket


Instead we get players who've played 5 first class matches thrown into the deep end in the international arena, a stubbornness to have any sense of forward thinking, a backwards thinking management which refuses to modernize and continue to select based on feelings.

We're not going to win any tournaments until we make these systemic changes and have patience in a rebuild.


end of rant.

This is not a rant. This is a fantastic post.

This is the major reason Pakistani side lags behind other teams.
PCB, fans and media just don’t respect the data and consistent performance in domestic cricket. Everything is based on feelings but passed on as logical...

Case in point: Saud Shakeel. The guy has been nailing down domestic cricket as a middle order bat, but rookies like Haris and Abdullah were being preferred ahead of him in the middle order where they’ve never shown any perf at lower levels in the past.
Because Saud performed in Test, fans and OPs on PP quickly labeled him as an “accumulator”, which in Pakistani parlance is reserved for batters who actually know how to bat i.e., accumulate runs.
If he gets a long run in ODIs, he will be a regular and we saw some glimpses of the grunt work he’s put in the Pakistani domestic scene for past 7-8 years.

 

[pratiktc]

I think in yday practice match more than 350 or 400 par, both Babar and Rizwan should cop some blame for batting on so long. They played 80 and 100 balls each thus taking up nearly 30 ovs.

That is atleast 10 ovs too much of batting time that could have been invested in likes of Ifti, Saud, Agha.

We should not read too much into results of yday since objective of both teams was to get player practice only

 

[ahmadharis1]

This is not a rant. This is a fantastic post.

This is the major reason Pakistani side lags behind other teams.
PCB, fans and media just don’t respect the data and consistent performance in domestic cricket. Everything is based on feelings but passed on as logical...

Case in point: Saud Shakeel. The guy has been nailing down domestic cricket as a middle order bat, but rookies like Haris and Abdullah were being preferred ahead of him in the middle order where they’ve never shown any perf at lower levels in the past.
Because Saud performed in Test, fans and OPs on PP quickly labeled him as an “accumulator”, which in Pakistani parlance is reserved for batters who actually know how to bat i.e., accumulate runs.
If he gets a long run in ODIs, he will be a regular and we saw some glimpses of the grunt work he’s put in the Pakistani domestic scene for past 7-8 years.

Thanks! It just so maddening seeing every other country do it right and Pakistan refusing to adapt.

I read an article the other day about how England reinvented their ODI side after their 2015 flop. They took a look at their schedule to the 2019 World Cup and noted all 90-something of their ODIs. They identified a strategy, selected a handful of key players and gave them a long rope with a license to fail and a promise to stay on the team as long as they stuck to the game plan. They didn't select a player for a series if they wouldn't be a viable option in 2019.

Can you imagine if Pakistan had that level of thinking? It's not even groundbreaking analytics; it's simple logical thinking. If Pakistan had taken a look in the mirror after being eliminated in the 2019 WC, saw what everyone else in the world saw (that cricket is being won by teams that bat aggressively and fearlessly), followed similar steps to what England did, can you imagine where we'd be right now? Instead we have essentially the same XI as 2019 with a handful of newbies thrown in within a year of the tournament. Every other team is being smart with data, analytics, rotation system, all except Pakistan.

To your point on Saud Shakeel and fans, I agree 10000%. It's crazy reading some comments here totally passing on players just based on the eye test. From the things I was reading, Saud Shakeel is a tuk tuk accumulator player who couldn't clear the boundary or hit sixes and had no place in the white ball side. The guy was playing inside-out cover drives for fun against New Zealand today! It was no surprise to me that he was hitting test hundreds for fun, anyone with a decent brain could take a look at his domestic stats and performances and extrapolate it to the test level.

 

[Ahmed216]

People reading too much into a practice game
Criticism will be justified if it happens in a WC game

 

[mominsaigol]

This is not a rant. This is a fantastic post.

This is the major reason Pakistani side lags behind other teams.
PCB, fans and media just don’t respect the data and consistent performance in domestic cricket. Everything is based on feelings but passed on as logical...

Case in point: Saud Shakeel. The guy has been nailing down domestic cricket as a middle order bat, but rookies like Haris and Abdullah were being preferred ahead of him in the middle order where they’ve never shown any perf at lower levels in the past.
Because Saud performed in Test, fans and OPs on PP quickly labeled him as an “accumulator”, which in Pakistani parlance is reserved for batters who actually know how to bat i.e., accumulate runs.
If he gets a long run in ODIs, he will be a regular and we saw some glimpses of the grunt work he’s put in the Pakistani domestic scene for past 7-8 years.

I never rated saud as an accumulator, in fact I advocated for saud to be our no 4 since I got here so much so that before his performance against NZ, people legit thought I had some love affair with the guy.

Regardless about your 1st post, Theirs a few issues.

Firstly NZ we're bowling with their part timers. Their wicket keeper bowls better then our entire unit besides shaheen and Rauf, so yes the bowling is God awful

But someone like ravidra should not be outperforming Mr no 1 batsmen in the world, same with kane Williamson, the guy isn't even fully fit but has no issues scoring at all.

80 of 84 against literal part time bowlers isn't good enough.

As for rizwan, That's the issue with rizwan, he has no 4th and 5th hear, he's limited. He ain't ever going beyond that 110 Sr

We wouldn't have come anywhere close to 346 if it wasn't for saud playing like an actual middle order bat getting that 5th gear into action.

Be 100% honest, do you actually think any player besides saud and maybe chacha can actually just go after the bowling? Because every new zeland batter sure did.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that with the exception of Saud who actually played how NZ batters were playing, our Mr no 1 batsmen and Mr no 1 wicket keeper clearly got outperformed by every NZ batsmen who actually scored yesterday.

Part time bowlers should be given the same treatment someone like saud was giving them.

Even against Nepal, Chacha was smashing but babar didn't actually smash and accelerate until he already got his 100.

Babar ain't gonna score 150 in every game, meaning his 100 just like rizwan's will likely be match losing.

 

[saqib.rai]

If there was any merit and logic to the selection:

-Players wouldn't be fast tracked to the team based on a handful of PSL matches
-Sahibzada Farhan would have had a extended run in the ODI team after his excellent domestic performances
-Saud Shakeel would have been in the Test/ODI teams about 3 years earlier than he did
-Zafar Gohar would be our premier spinner in Tests and ODIs and is still probably the best spinner in Pakistan
-Usman Shinwari would have received a comeback ODI series after his injury instead of being dropped forever
-Mohammad Nawaz and Hassan Ali continuing to be select despite their constant failures and chokes
-Players wouldn't be labeled as allrounders for having a batting average below 20. I can buy Faheem Ashraf as a decent test bat but he and Mohammad Wasim are far from all rounders.
-Players wouldn't be selected for one match then inexplicably dropped forever. Tabish Khan, Arshad Iqbal, Usman Shinwari in tests, Zafar Gohar, Mir Hamza. Don't select a player unless you're going to give them at least 5-10 matches to cement a spot. Tired of seeing players toil in domestics, earn their selection, then get ignored, regardless of how they performed. It's a slap in the face when they are passed over for a overhyped PSL star who can't be bothered to play first class cricket


Instead we get players who've played 5 first class matches thrown into the deep end in the international arena, a stubbornness to have any sense of forward thinking, a backwards thinking management which refuses to modernize and continue to select based on feelings.

We're not going to win any tournaments until we make these systemic changes and have patience in a rebuild.


end of rant.

Pakistan doesn't have the luxury that England, Australia and India have. They can afford giving chance after chance to Zak Crawley for him to finally shine but we play 6 test matches every year. Cannot give 10 matches to a new player to 'cement his place'

 

[Dr_Bassim]

I never rated saud as an accumulator, in fact I advocated for saud to be our no 4 since I got here so much so that before his performance against NZ, people legit thought I had some love affair with the guy.

Regardless about your 1st post, Theirs a few issues.

Firstly NZ we're bowling with their part timers. Their wicket keeper bowls better then our entire unit besides shaheen and Rauf, so yes the bowling is God awful

But someone like ravidra should not be outperforming Mr no 1 batsmen in the world, same with kane Williamson, the guy isn't even fully fit but has no issues scoring at all.

80 of 84 against literal part time bowlers isn't good enough.

As for rizwan, That's the issue with rizwan, he has no 4th and 5th hear, he's limited. He ain't ever going beyond that 110 Sr

We wouldn't have come anywhere close to 346 if it wasn't for saud playing like an actual middle order bat getting that 5th gear into action.

Be 100% honest, do you actually think any player besides saud and maybe chacha can actually just go after the bowling? Because every new zeland batter sure did.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that with the exception of Saud who actually played how NZ batters were playing, our Mr no 1 batsmen and Mr no 1 wicket keeper clearly got outperformed by every NZ batsmen who actually scored yesterday.

Part time bowlers should be given the same treatment someone like saud was giving them.

Even against Nepal, Chacha was smashing but babar didn't actually smash and accelerate until he already got his 100.

Babar ain't gonna score 150 in every game, meaning his 100 just like rizwan's will likely be match losing.

When 3 out of your top 4 (Imam, Babar and Riz) are stat padders, dont expect them to ever risk their wicket.

This can be proven by this match.

Babar, oblivious to match situation, was interested in his 100.

AUS vs PAK Cricket Scorecard, 5th ODI at Adelaide, January 26, 2017

Get cricket scorecard of 5th ODI, AUS vs PAK, PAK tour of AUS 2016/17 at Adelaide Oval dated January 26, 2017.

www.espncricinfo.com

 

[mominsaigol]

When 3 out of your top 4 (Imam, Babar and Riz) are stat padders, dont expect them to ever risk their wicket.

This can be proven by this match.

Babar, oblivious to match situation, was interested in his 100.

AUS vs PAK Cricket Scorecard, 5th ODI at Adelaide, January 26, 2017

Get cricket scorecard of 5th ODI, AUS vs PAK, PAK tour of AUS 2016/17 at Adelaide Oval dated January 26, 2017.

www.espncricinfo.com

Bro 4 out of 4. Remember Pakistan is now preferring Abdullah as frontline.

I'm so sick of the stats argument, the posters who use the stats argument are all jahil . Because they can't argue anything else and use the weakest argument possible.

The reality is if we had players like fakhar, Saim ayub, Saud shakeel, Tayyab Tahir, Haris as our frontliners with only babar as the main player that everyone functions around,

Then we'd atleast have players who can up the ante and start at an 80 SR but eventually go for a 130 to 140 SR once their set.

Not saying these players are world beaters but they can be groomed to be cause they all have that intent to progress forward.

For all those quoting imam and rizwan stats. Rahnei dei, Imam start at 80 and ends at 80, expect the match losing 100 of 120 if he gets their, or expect imam to depart early leaving us 30 for 1 after 10 overs.

Idk why people don't see this. Yes the bowling is poor but why are supporters still acting as if babar and Rizwan did no wrong. When you have a goddamn wicket keeper bowling and darly Mitchell bowling why is ravindra who isn't even frontline, and saud shakeel who's new to the international odi circuit playing a million tines better and hitting that 140Sr consistently outperforming Mr No 1 Odi batsmen and Mr no 2 T20 batsmen . Shouldn't the worlds greatest t20 batter be able to accelerate beyond 90?

 

[hassan918]

What a merit based selection Hasan Ali is 9 wickets at an average of 42 and an economy rate of 6.8 since the last World Cup.

Unfortunately, there aren't many better options than him available at the moment.

 

[ahmadharis1]

Pakistan doesn't have the luxury that England, Australia and India have. They can afford giving chance after chance to Zak Crawley for him to finally shine but we play 6 test matches every year. Cannot give 10 matches to a new player to 'cement his place'

What's the alternative? Play them one match and if they don't light the world on fire then goodbye?

The team needs to identify potential international talent based on domestic performances and back their players.

 

[saqib.rai]

What's the alternative? Play them one match and if they don't light the world on fire then goodbye?

The team needs to identify potential international talent based on domestic performances and back their players.

3 test matches
5 White ball matches
Maximum

 

[Saj]

It's a results based sport.

Anchoring beautifully, great individual stats, mean nothing for any player if the team isn't winning or winning Trophies.

I couldn't care less about individual performances, as long as the team wins.

 

[Markhor]

Thanks! It just so maddening seeing every other country do it right and Pakistan refusing to adapt.

I read an article the other day about how England reinvented their ODI side after their 2015 flop. They took a look at their schedule to the 2019 World Cup and noted all 90-something of their ODIs. They identified a strategy, selected a handful of key players and gave them a long rope with a license to fail and a promise to stay on the team as long as they stuck to the game plan. They didn't select a player for a series if they wouldn't be a viable option in 2019.

Can you imagine if Pakistan had that level of thinking? It's not even groundbreaking analytics; it's simple logical thinking. If Pakistan had taken a look in the mirror after being eliminated in the 2019 WC, saw what everyone else in the world saw (that cricket is being won by teams that bat aggressively and fearlessly), followed similar steps to what England did, can you imagine where we'd be right now? Instead we have essentially the same XI as 2019 with a handful of newbies thrown in within a year of the tournament. Every other team is being smart with data, analytics, rotation system, all except Pakistan.

We cannot compare the English setup to Pakistan's.

During this 2019-23 World Cup cycle alone, there's been four Chairmen (Mani, Ramiz, Sethi and Zaka) along with three Head Coaches, three Chief Selectors (plus two interims) and two domestic cricket revamps. The only constant is a deeply flawed captain.

Therefore it becomes impossible to forsee a cycle of long-term planning and preparation like England's 2015-19. It's like expecting an aged Nissan Micra to accelerate at the speed of a Ferrari.

Regarding analytics, most of the world began using data-driven strategies 10-15 years ago but it was only in Sep 2021 we gained access to CricViz's database ! Australia's National Academy was inagurated in 1987 while Pakistan's NCA finally opened in the early 2000s. Much like the country, our cricket is also behind the times.

 

[Farabi]

It's a results based sport.

Anchoring beautifully, great individual stats, mean nothing for any player if the team isn't winning or winning Trophies.

I couldn't care less about individual performances, as long as the team wins.

I agree. However, we have to make the right diagnosis to rectify the problem. If the team scored 350 and the opposition chases that score inside 44 overs, would you say the bigger problem is batting or bowling?

If it is batting, then what is a good score then? Does Pakistan need to score 400-450 runs every game to be competitive.

It’s easy to target Rizwan. But he was not the culprit there. Bowlers need to do a better job.

 

[ahmadharis1]

We cannot compare the English setup to Pakistan's.

During this 2019-23 World Cup cycle alone, there's been four Chairmen (Mani, Ramiz, Sethi and Zaka) along with three Head Coaches, three Chief Selectors (plus two interims) and two domestic cricket revamps. The only constant is a deeply flawed captain.

Therefore it becomes impossible to forsee a cycle of long-term planning and preparation like England's 2015-19. It's like expecting an aged Nissan Micra to accelerate at the speed of a Ferrari.

Regarding analytics, most of the world began using data-driven strategies 10-15 years ago but it was only in Sep 2021 we gained access to CricViz's database ! Australia's National Academy was inagurated in 1987 while Pakistan's NCA finally opened in the early 2000s. Much like the country, our cricket is also behind the times.

Oh yeah I didn't mean to compare the two because England is light years ahead of Pakistan in all facets. Just stating how that should be the template we need to follow.

I'd be ok with losing a majority of matches for the next 4 years if it means a proper reset and talent development for the 2027 world cup

 

[Technics 1210]

Yes it is absolutely possible to be objective, but the reality is social media and online forums provide a veil of anonymity which allows fans to spew agenda based hatred - and their agenda? Attention seeking. I doubt the Agenders would talk like this in real life.

I have lost count the number of times I have read that Pakistan is not a team capable of scoring 350, and then lo and behold, when Pakistan set a target of 350 in a warm up, the agendas come out with absolute drivel from team selection, to captain's cliques, to crease hogging.

The agenda based hate is even worse when Pakistan win matches! From excuses like - it was a fluke, opposition had an off day, match must be investigated. If Pakistan lose a match then its - rankings are unreliable, bring back the fixers, time to sack the team.

The Agenders always need something to criticise because they desperately seek attention to fill the void of satisfaction - and they do so by posting what they believe to be a controversial view.

There are some players I have disliked, but as long as any player is representing Pakistan with honesty and integrity, I do not care, they will have my full support because I support team Pakistan! (and England!).

Remember it is easier to hate, than to love.

 

[TheSultan]

But there are 3-4 threads on Strike Rate. What? You need 400 to win now?
Specifically Rizwan, who averages 63 with a SR of 93 in 2023 at no4, is a target of criticism day in and out, even though he played another gem today.

On a flat pancake in a warmup match where the opposition is bowling their wicket keeper and second string line up, why can’t you in this day and age, take some risks and attempt 400. If you want to be the best you’ve got to compete with the best. And the best rack up 400+

Why can’t you try? Why can’t you see what you’re capable of? Why do you need to in your words “anchor” in a warm up game lol. You know you can anchor! Why not try something else? And if you can’t do it, give the others like Saud, Ifti and co a longer bat?

 

[deltexas]

Even in today's times totals over 300 should be defendable . Onus on the bowling team to defend them. Only exceptions being very small grounds.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Yes it is absolutely possible to be objective, but the reality is social media and online forums provide a veil of anonymity which allows fans to spew agenda based hatred - and their agenda? Attention seeking. I doubt the Agenders would talk like this in real life.

I have lost count the number of times I have read that Pakistan is not a team capable of scoring 350, and then lo and behold, when Pakistan set a target of 350 in a warm up, the agendas come out with absolute drivel from team selection, to captain's cliques, to crease hogging.

The agenda based hate is even worse when Pakistan win matches! From excuses like - it was a fluke, opposition had an off day, match must be investigated. If Pakistan lose a match then its - rankings are unreliable, bring back the fixers, time to sack the team.

The Agenders always need something to criticise because they desperately seek attention to fill the void of satisfaction - and they do so by posting what they believe to be a controversial view.

There are some players I have disliked, but as long as any player is representing Pakistan with honesty and integrity, I do not care, they will have my full support because I support team Pakistan! (and England!).

Remember it is easier to hate, than to love.

Great post!

There is an attempt to discredit every thing Pakistan has done.

Test Mace - Never held it for long enough.
Champions Trophy - Fluke
T20 ranking - Made against B sides
ODI rankings - As above
Series win against India - They were in transition.
UAE Era - Flat pitches

Player performance - only matters if it delivers ICC trophies.

Well then what about Indian players and ABIPLDV?

Its a never ending cycle of negativity.

 

[Farabi]

On a flat pancake in a warmup match where the opposition is bowling their wicket keeper and second string line up, why can’t you in this day and age, take some risks and attempt 400. If you want to be the best you’ve got to compete with the best. And the best rack up 400+

Why can’t you try? Why can’t you see what you’re capable of? Why do you need to in your words “anchor” in a warm up game lol. You know you can anchor! Why not try something else? And if you can’t do it, give the others like Saud, Ifti and co a longer bat?

The goal of a warmup game in a new country should always be to spend time on the crease and get used to the new conditions. It should not be to shoot for 400 and be back at the dugout. I am much more comfortable with Babar, Rizwan and Saud scoring runs and getting a feel-good factor, then bundling up for 200 because we decided that we will score 400 during a warm up game for no reason whatsoever.
If the batting is in form, they should absolutely shoot for 400+ in an actual game, but the goal of the warm up is to warm up not experiment and push boundaries.

 

[TheSultan]

The goal of a warmup game in a new country should always be to spend time on the crease and get used to the new conditions. It should not be to shoot for 400 and be back at the dugout. I am much more comfortable with Babar, Rizwan and Saud scoring runs and getting a feel-good factor, then bundling up for 200 because we decided that we will score 400 during a warm up game for no reason whatsoever.
If the batting is in form, they should absolutely shoot for 400+ in an actual game, but the goal of the warm up is to warm up not experiment and push boundaries.

Yea I really saw Buttler, Bairstow and Moeen Ali and co try to get used to conditions.

And this whole cop out of “new to Indian conditions” is nonsense. It was a flat pancake. What is there to get used to.

I know you feel the need to defend the two darlings of the team, but be honest! Pakistan’s strategy should have shifted by now that our bowling attack has weakened. This innings should have been about trying some power hitting. Sure - take 20 balls to warm up if you must, but after that go for it.

Fair play to Saud, he actually played in that spirit

 

[Dr_Bassim]

Great post!

There is an attempt to discredit every thing Pakistan has done.

Test Mace - Never held it for long enough.
Champions Trophy - Fluke
T20 ranking - Made against B sides
ODI rankings - As above
Series win against India - They were in transition.
UAE Era - Flat pitches

Player performance - only matters if it delivers ICC trophies.

Well then what about Indian players and ABIPLDV?

Its a never ending cycle of negativity.

Test Mace and CT 2017 were not a fluke.

T2O ranking and ODI rankings were definitely against a B teams because besides Pakistan (which plays its top players even vs Namibia, Uganda and Hong Kong), other teams simply use ODI and T20 for development of talent and new players.

NO one can say with a straight face Pakistan is the best ODI or T20 side in the World.

 

[Farabi]

Yea I really saw Buttler, Bairstow and Moeen Ali and co try to get used to conditions.

And this whole cop out of “new to Indian conditions” is nonsense. It was a flat pancake. What is there to get used to.

I know you feel the need to defend the two darlings of the team, but be honest! Pakistan’s strategy should have shifted by now that our bowling attack has weakened. This innings should have been about trying some power hitting. Sure - take 20 balls to warm up if you must, but after that go for it.

Fair play to Saud, he actually played in that spirit

You are getting worked up and not making any sense buddy. The goal of the warm up is to warm up you best players, it is not to "shift the strategy" and experiment. Its too late to do that.

 

[TheSultan]

You are getting worked up and not making any sense buddy. The goal of the warm up is to warm up you best players, it is not to "shift the strategy" and experiment. It’s too late to do that.

yea cheers err… “buddy”

So much importance to “warm up” just how long does it take to “warm” up. Get your 40-50 balls out of the way and go and relax. That’s what a warm up is - you don’t go gritted teeth playing for a century

 

[Farabi]

yea cheers err… “buddy”

So much importance to “warm up” just how long does it take to “warm” up. Get your 40-50 balls out of the way and go and relax. That’s what a warm up is - you don’t go gritted teeth playing for a century

That is fair criticism. I don't care who wins the warm up. Main players should get batting practice and main bowlers should get bowling practice. My critique would be
1. Why didn't shadab and fakhar get practice.
2. Why didn't Babar and Rizwan retire.

That said, De Cock from SA also didnt retire at 84 not out. Is he also a stat padder?

 

[TheSultan]

That is fair criticism. I don't care who wins the warm up. Main players should get batting practice and main bowlers should get bowling practice. My critique would be
1. Why didn't shadab and fakhar get practice.
2. Why didn't Babar and Rizwan retire.

That said, De Cock from SA also didnt retire at 84 not out. Is he also a stat padder?

There’s no need for whataboutism - I don’t care about de kock, he plays for SA. I’m talking about our team. For the record he’s wrong too for batting on.