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Is not playing Pakistan the main reason India became Number 1 in Tests?

srh

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India is ranked No. 1 in Tests but we all know it is not deserving. They are usually considered to be one of the worst No. 1 in Tests history. So how such a bad team became No. 1 in Tests?

Fact 1:
India has stellar home record since they stopped playing Pakistan. They last played at home against Pakistan in 2007 and since then this is their home record by year:

2018: 1 matches, 1 won, 0 lost, 0 draw
2017: 8 matches, 4 won, 1 lost, 3 draw
2016: 8 matches, 7 won, 0 lost, 1 draw
2015: 4 matches, 3 won, 0 lost, 1 draw
2013: 6 matches, 6 won, 0 lost, 0 draw
2012: 6 matches, 3 won, 2 lost, 1 draw
2011: 3 matches, 2 won, 0 lost, 1 draw
2010: 7 matches, 4 won, 1 lost, 2 draw
2009: 3 matches, 2 won, 0 lost, 1 draw
2008: 9 matches, 4 won, 1 lost, 4 draw

So since 2017 they have played 55 home matches, out of which they have won 36 and lost only 5. :O

Only year where there was a bit competition at home was 2012 and still India come on top in that year.

So India is ranked No. in Tests because of their stellar home record post 2007.

Fact 2:
Looking at the history we see that Pakistan is the 2nd best team (after the legendary old West Indies team) against India in India.

India has played 33 tests at home against Pakistan, won only 7, lost 5 while 21 were draw.

Look at India's record at home against Pakistan in the last 3 times Pakistan visited:

2007: 3 matches, 1 won, 0 lost, 2 draw
2005: 3 matches, 1 won, 1 lost, 1 draw
1999: 3 matches, 1 won, 2 lost, 0 draw

So historically Pakistan has been very good against India in India.

Conclusion:
You join the above facts and you can conclude:
  • If India was playing tests against Pakistan after 2007, India would not have such a stellar home record post 2007.
  • If India did not have such a stellar home record post 2007, India would not be ranked No. 1 in Tests.

Do you agree?
 
I feel like i have seen a similar thread many times before as well..

To your question, no and yes. No because India's ranking doesnt entirely depends upon playing against Pakistan and yes because their ranking would take a hit as they wont be as good at home.
 
So few threads opened in last couple of days:

A) Petition to ICC to change ranking methods.
B) Is India the worst no.1 team?
C) Is India no.1 only bcoz they not playing Pakistan?
D) Is India's no.1 status deserving?
E) Should Pak play 5 test series in Eng rather than India?

Never realized rankings will give so much heart burn :)))
 
And Bdesh and zimbabwe as well. India doesn't host either of the 3 countries and that helps India boost it's rankings.
 
So few threads opened in last couple of days:

A) Petition to ICC to change ranking methods.
B) Is India the worst no.1 team?
C) Is India no.1 only bcoz they not playing Pakistan?
D) Is India's no.1 status deserving?
E) Should Pak play 5 test series in Eng rather than India?

Never realized rankings will give so much heart burn :)))

Only T20 rankings are valid :))
 
It has nothing to do with Pakistan. A team which got destroyed by Devandra fricking Bishoo would be utterly demolished by Ashwin and Jadeja bowling on rank turners anyway. And Pujara who I believe is the best player of spin in this decade would be enough along with decent support from the likes of Vijay, Rahane, Rahul etc to grind out Yasir Shah. If Pakistan can come with one more good spinner then things could get interesting.

India has become No.1 because more often than not they have had to face the likes of Santner, Craig Rashid, Moeen as leading bowlers in spinning conditions, bowlers who are just not capable of leading an attack in subcontinental conditions. Australia brought two proper spinners in Lyon and O' Keefe and almost defeated India inflicting one of the most humiliating losses at Pune in the process. Not to mention they had the best batsman of the generation in Steve Smith as well. Pakistan doesn't have any batsman anywhere near close to his caliber.
 
Rubbish stats. The average number of test matches lost to Pakistan in their last 3 visits to India is 1 test match per visit. Not much of a difference. OP is not even taking into account Indian team winning in away series to Pakistan.
 
Crying shame India Pakistan do not play tests in what has become the norm. These guys facing off in whites, in either country, or somewhere neutral would be brilliant.
 
:))

Yes, the No.1 team in the world won't be No.1 if they faced the mighty No.7 team.

Yes, we have won 3 Tests in England since 2016. We have also been whitewashed in SA, Aus, NZ and by a very weak SL team at home.
 
Yes but more importantly their dominance and bending of rules to support their batsmen is the reason they are at one. The moment things go rough they turn into a B-grade team. Pakistan could have highlighted this more often but terrorism excuse combined with huge money is saving them for now.
 
I suppose we would give India a better challenge than teams like England but that is not necessarily because we are better than England. We are used to Asian conditions and so naturally we would play better against India in India than other teams.
HOWEVER, India is still the better team and so would still beat us unless younis khan would've been in form and scoring huge runs.
 
Yes.

Pakistan is not like the Aussies, English or Saffers who can't play spin and have no spinners.

India being scared to Pakistan has given them a win at home in every series. If Pakistan went to India twice in the last 5/6 years ,they would have won one of the series and probably drawn the other.
 
So the blokes who cant even handle Srilankan Trundlers at their own home would bat well against Ashwin and Jadeja in India? Lol. They would lose every test by an innings.
 
So the blokes who cant even handle Srilankan Trundlers at their own home would bat well against Ashwin and Jadeja in India? Lol. They would lose every test by an innings.

The team was in tranistion, its desperation to keep coming back to this. Instead write to the BJP and BCCI so they show some footballs and play Pakistan. Pakistan will not lay down and die in India as others have done. With our spinners and pacers who can reverse it for fun, they will rip through the overated Indian batting line up.
 
Actually this thread does have merit.

India has not played the only other sub continent tiger at home for over ten years...

Between 2010 and 2017 Pakistan were unbeaten in the UAE
and if there was ever team that could compete and maybe beat India in India was Pakistan.
Same goes for games played in the UAE.
 
This thread would make some sense if Pakistan was at least the second best test team in Asia. But they are not even that.

First they need to overcome Sri Lanka as the second best Asian side. Then they can think about India.
 
The team that toured in 2007 was probably the weakest Test ever from Pakistan in India and all India could manage was a 1-0 win in 3 Tests.
 
The team that toured in 2007 was probably the weakest Test ever from Pakistan in India and all India could manage was a 1-0 win in 3 Tests.

Pakistan last won a test series in India in 1987. What's the excuse for that, then?

India on the other hand, has a test series victory in Pakistan as recent as 2004.
 
Pakistan last won a test series in India in 1987. What's the excuse for that, then?

India on the other hand, has a test series victory in Pakistan as recent as 2004.

Lmao like they were playing cricket consistently since '87.


Since they resumed playing in 2004:

India in Pakistan
Win: 1
Loss: 1
Draw: 0

Pakistan in India:
Win: 0
Loss: 1
Draw: 1


Great bar you've set there. One more win than Pakistan.
 
Pakistan last won a test series in India in 1987. What's the excuse for that, then?

India on the other hand, has a test series victory in Pakistan as recent as 2004.

The Indian wins in this century were the first tests India won in Pakistan.

Pakistan has more test wins in India than india in Pakistan.
 
It has nothing to do with Pakistan. A team which got destroyed by Devandra fricking Bishoo would be utterly demolished by Ashwin and Jadeja bowling on rank turners anyway. And Pujara who I believe is the best player of spin in this decade would be enough along with decent support from the likes of Vijay, Rahane, Rahul etc to grind out Yasir Shah. If Pakistan can come with one more good spinner then things could get interesting.

Damn Even you couldn't pretend otherwise :O that must have been very very hard to write
 
Lmao like they were playing cricket consistently since '87.


Since they resumed playing in 2004:

India in Pakistan
Win: 1
Loss: 1
Draw: 0

Pakistan in India:
Win: 0
Loss: 1
Draw: 1


Great bar you've set there. One more win than Pakistan.

Since 1987 India and Pakistan have played 6 series, 3 of which were in India.

Pakistan lost twice in India and drew once.
India won once in Pak, drew another series and lost the the last one.

If you are talking from 2003/04, yes, it's one more series win than Pakistan (including an away series win) and no series lost to them at home. Even when the two teams were at par.

Now one of them is at the top of the ladder than the other is lagging at the bottom.

How much do you wanna bet that a 2014 or 2015 or 2016 Pakistan team could win in India?
 
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The Indian wins in this century were the first tests India won in Pakistan.

Pakistan has more test wins in India than india in Pakistan.

I have already pointed out Pakistan's superior performance in the 70s/80s. No body is denying that.

But it has been a very different picture since then.
 
Damn Even you couldn't pretend otherwise :O that must have been very very hard to write

It was definitely much harder than you deciding to no show the Australia of 2000s thread where you proclaimed India of 2017-today to be better than India of early 2000s among some other highly entertaining suggestions :))

1-2
1-4

Yeah, right.
 
Since 1987 India and Pakistan have played 6 series, 3 of which were in India.

Pakistan lost twice in India and drew once.
India won once in Pak, drew another series and lost the the last one.

If you are talking from 2003/04, yes, it's one more series win than Pakistan (including an away series win) and no series lost to them at home. Even when the two teams were at par.

Now one of them is at the top of the ladder than the other is lagging at the bottom.

How much do you wanna bet that a 2014 or 2015 or 2016 Pakistan team could win in India?

Just making up facts now, are we?


Pakistan in India:

1999 - Draw 2 match series 1-1
2005 - Draw 3 match series 1-1-1
2007 - Lost 3 match series 0-1
 
Some of the deadly batsmen that India's batsmen were on par with in 2005 and 2007:

Taufeeq Umar
Asim Kamal
Faisal Iqbal


And then of course they were backed up by the strike bowling of the following:
Rana Naved-Ul-Hasan
Mohammad Khalil
Arshad Khan
Sohail Tanvir
Yasir Arafat
 
Just making up facts now, are we?


Pakistan in India:

1999 - Draw 2 match series 1-1
2005 - Draw 3 match series 1-1-1
2007 - Lost 3 match series 0-1

Sorry that was my mistake. I meant to write 1 loss and 2 draws.

Good on you to catch on to my mistake. Now go ahead and refute the rest of my points.
 
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Some of the deadly batsmen that India's batsmen were on par with in 2005 and 2007:

Taufeeq Umar
Asim Kamal
Faisal Iqbal


And then of course they were backed up by the strike bowling of the following:
Rana Naved-Ul-Hasan
Mohammad Khalil
Arshad Khan
Sohail Tanvir
Yasir Arafat

Well if you think your team was crap even back then, then who am I to argue. :))
 
It was definitely much harder than you deciding to no show the Australia of 2000s thread where you proclaimed India of 2017-today to be better than India of early 2000s among some other highly entertaining suggestions :))

1-2
1-4

Yeah, right.

Early 2000s? Yeah the current team is better. In the early 2000s India was still beatable in Asia. India of 2017 is next to unbeatable in Asia.

India from 2006-09 was a much better team than the current Indian team. It's in that period that India won 3 overseas tours.
 
Early 2000s? Yeah the current team is better. In the early 2000s India was still beatable in Asia. India of 2017 is next to unbeatable in Asia.

India from 2006-09 was a much better team than the current Indian team. It's in that period that India won 3 overseas tours.

I also remember the 06-09 team drawing two series at home against England (led by Andrew Flintoff no less) and South Africa. They also lost away from home to Sri Lanka.

As far as the early 2000s team losing at home is concerned, they only lost to South Africa and Australia. Both those teams would beat the current lot black and blue in India in the hypothetical world in which they get to play each other. That early 2000s team was very good to be honest, they needed to be in order to beat the ATG Australian team at home and draw with them away.
 
This is an absurd thread.

The current Indian team is Number One because it is better than others at home and decent abroad.

The last series we had at home, we lost to a team against whom posters were asserting that runs did not count.
 
It was definitely much harder than you deciding to no show the Australia of 2000s thread where you proclaimed India of 2017-today to be better than India of early 2000s among some other highly entertaining suggestions :))

1-2
1-4

Yeah, right.

No show or you ran away ? Go ahead bump that thread but make sure you stick around this time :91:
 
I also remember the 06-09 team drawing two series at home against England (led by Andrew Flintoff no less) and South Africa. They also lost away from home to Sri Lanka.

As far as the early 2000s team losing at home is concerned, they only lost to South Africa and Australia. Both those teams would beat the current lot black and blue in India in the hypothetical world in which they get to play each other. That early 2000s team was very good to be honest, they needed to be in order to beat the ATG Australian team at home and draw with them away.

2009/10 SA tour only had 2 test matches. India messed up the 1st test but came roaring back in the 2nd with an innings victory. But from 2006-09, they won a series in WI, England and NZ, had an amazing series in Australia in 2008 (even though it was 2-1 to Aus), won multiple home series including Pakistan and Australia and also won their first ever test match in SA.

Those are a large number of incredible achievements all done in a span of 4 years.




2000-05 India was very good at home. But they were not unbeatable at home and couldn't win in SL.

Post 2015, India has been unbeatable at home. Just 1 lost test at home in the last 5 years says it all. Add to that the 2 back-to-back series wins in SL and this current team is better than India was in 2000-05.
 
2009/10 SA tour only had 2 test matches. India messed up the 1st test but came roaring back in the 2nd with an innings victory. But from 2006-09, they won a series in WI, England and NZ, had an amazing series in Australia in 2008 (even though it was 2-1 to Aus), won multiple home series including Pakistan and Australia and also won their first ever test match in SA.

Those are a large number of incredible achievements all done in a span of 4 years.




2000-05 India was very good at home. But they were not unbeatable at home and couldn't win in SL.

Post 2015, India has been unbeatable at home. Just 1 lost test at home in the last 5 years says it all. Add to that the 2 back-to-back series wins in SL and this current team is better than India was in 2000-05.

I was talking about the 3 match series against SA in 2008. But my major gripe was the draw with an ordinary England outfit in 2006.

This current team is certainly not better than a team that contained Sehwag, Dravid, Tendulkar, Laxman, Ganguly, Kumble, Harbhajan and Zaheer. The only thing going for the present lot is a good group of fast bowlers, but that batting lineup stomps all over the current version. You have to also account for the strength of touring teams these days, which is not what it was 15 years ago. Hell even the Zimbabwe teams that toured India in 2000 and 2002 were competitive.
 
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I was talking about the 3 match series against SA in 2008. But my major gripe was the draw with an ordinary England outfit in 2006.

This current team is certainly not better than a team that contained Sehwag, Dravid, Tendulkar, Laxman, Ganguly, Kumble, Harbhajan and Zaheer. The only thing going for the present lot is a good group of fast bowlers, but that batting lineup stomps all over the current version. You have to also account for the strength of touring teams these days, which is not what it was 15 years ago. Hell even the Zimbabwe teams that toured India in 2000 and 2002 were competitive.

One drawn home series should not diminish the many things that the 2006-09 team achieved. Teams can slip up. They don't have to be perfect.

I don't agree with your last sentence at all. Competition is relative. You play what's I'm front of you. It's like asking "was 90s/00s Australia really that strong or was every other team weak?" It's a chicken-and-egg thing with no universally applicable solution.

No doubt the 2000s teams had great players but at the end of the day what matters is results. Wins. And the current teams wins more often than the 2000-05 team did.

Btw all those players you mentioned also played through 2006-09 and they DID win and that team IS better than the current one.
 
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No.

Not playing away against anybody good for three years is how they became “Number 1”.
 
No.

Not playing away against anybody good for three years is how they became “Number 1”.

Well we have played in SL twice. No other team has won in SL in the last 3 years. And everybody has tried.

And now we have played 2 back to back SENA tours and are still number 1.

Thoughts? :)
 
Start playing more test outside of India and watch how quick they lose number 1 ranking.

This thinking is also being shared by Indian great ex players.
 
One drawn home series should not diminish the many things that the 2006-09 team achieved. Teams can slip up. They don't have to be perfect.

I don't agree with your last sentence at all. Competition is relative. You play what's I'm front of you. It's like asking "was 90s/00s Australia really that strong or was every other team weak?" It's a chicken-and-egg thing with no universally applicable solution.

No doubt the 2000s teams had great players but at the end of the day what matters is results. Wins. And the current teams wins more often than the 2000-05 team did.

Btw all those players you mentioned also played through 2006-09 and they DID win and that team IS better than the current one.

It is important to take into account competition when you are comparing across eras, and it is beyond doubt that world cricket was stronger (more variety to bowling attacks, more resilient batting units) between 2000 and 2005, than it has been in the future. An era sort of ended with the 2005 Ashes. It is a fact verifiable with stats, touring sides over the past 5 years have been pretty mediocre. If you disagree with this point, then I am afraid you don't really understand sport or the exercise of comparing performances across periods.

Regarding the same players playing between 2000 and 2004, and 2006 and 2009, surely you understand that those players were at their peak in the early part of the decade and thus better. It's just that the competition got weaker which allowed them to win.

Just to emphasize, the England team of 2002 was stronger than the one that lost in 2007; the Australian team of 2004 was on a different planet to the one that toured in 2008. Only South Africa, and even that is arguable, got stronger as the decade progressed. Pakistan certainly regressed, so did Sri Lanka, West Indies and Zimbabwe.
 
Well we have played in SL twice. No other team has won in SL in the last 3 years. And everybody has tried.

And now we have played 2 back to back SENA tours and are still number 1.

Thoughts? :)

Once again, Pakistan won in SL 2-1 in 2015, exactly three years ago.
 
Well we have played in SL twice. No other team has won in SL in the last 3 years. And everybody has tried.

And now we have played 2 back to back SENA tours and are still number 1.

Thoughts? :)

India winning in Sri Lanka is like Australia and South Africa winning in one another's countries.

Meaningless, because the actual conditions are almost identical to home conditions, so there is no need to adapt technique to alien conditions.
 
To be really frank it wouldn't have made much difference. The point is that Pakistan isn't the greatest team playing spin either. They were regulary rolled over by Rangana Herath in both UAE and Sri Lanka. If we were to play in the current scenario, there is no competition as India will easily beat Pakistan in UAE or in India. When Younis and Misbah were still playing it would have been a close contest with Pakistan probably having upper hand in UAE and India in India.
 
India winning in Sri Lanka is like Australia and South Africa winning in one another's countries.

Meaningless, because the actual conditions are almost identical to home conditions, so there is no need to adapt technique to alien conditions.

That is the case with all the teams in world cricket nowadays. England went to New Zealand and got rolled over for 58, that was one of the most embarrassing performances in recent times. So all teams are the same. Australia, England, SA and NZ coming to subcontinent and getting rolled over regularly is similar to India, Pakistan, SL and Ban going through the same when they step out of Asia. World cricket is currently at that stage where you don't have a standout team who can win outside their comfort zone.
 
That is the case with all the teams in world cricket nowadays. England went to New Zealand and got rolled over for 58, that was one of the most embarrassing performances in recent times. So all teams are the same. Australia, England, SA and NZ coming to subcontinent and getting rolled over regularly is similar to India, Pakistan, SL and Ban going through the same when they step out of Asia. World cricket is currently at that stage where you don't have a standout team who can win outside their comfort zone.

Yes, that's my point too.

Every team is so mediocre that they can only win in familiar conditions.

But still, English conditions are equally alien to both India and Pakistan.

But whereas Pakistan drew their last 2 series there 2-2 and then 1-1, India has lost their last 2 series there 3-1 and now 4-1.

Both teams are just really mediocre. And India is only ranked higher than Pakistan because of points accumulated in home series, whereas Pakistan hasn't played a home series since Shadab Khan was in primary school.
 
Pakistan? Naah, my thinking was not playing a Test vs Zimbabwe since 2005 has been the main reason why we have done better as a Test team since then.
 
Yes, that's my point too.

Every team is so mediocre that they can only win in familiar conditions.

But still, English conditions are equally alien to both India and Pakistan.

But whereas Pakistan drew their last 2 series there 2-2 and then 1-1, India has lost their last 2 series there 3-1 and now 4-1.

Both teams are just really mediocre. And India is only ranked higher than Pakistan because of points accumulated in home series, whereas Pakistan hasn't played a home series since Shadab Khan was in primary school.

UAE conditions are alien to Pakistan or what?

Why do you keep contradicting yourself all the time
 
India winning in Sri Lanka is like Australia and South Africa winning in one another's countries.

Meaningless, because the actual conditions are almost identical to home conditions, so there is no need to adapt technique to alien conditions.

LOL and then you say Pakistan has not played a home series for ages!
 
India would beat us in tests in India and in the UAE right now. Guys just put your ego aside for once. Losing to a better team is part of sport. Deep down most of our fans know we aren't a match for India in the test format right now but won't admit it.
 
Pakistan loses match after another against Sri Lanka who loses match after another against India.

Not sure why are Pakistan fans thinking India wouldnt have been no.1 in test if not played Pakistan.
 
Posters downplaying the 3-0 whitewash of Lanka in Lanka because they are familiar conditions. How come England couldn't do the same in 'familiar' conditions in NZ on this tour or the last? When was the last SL was whitewashed at home or when was the last time anyone won a 3 match away series anywhere?
 
India winning in Sri Lanka is like Australia and South Africa winning in one another's countries.

Meaningless, because the actual conditions are almost identical to home conditions, so there is no need to adapt technique to alien conditions.

There is much difference in Indian and SL conditions that there exists between Pak and UAE pitches.

So since you've already made your stance on this you can finally stop sobbing about "home advantage" for Pak all the time.
 
I just came to see who started this thread.

I was a lurker since 2014. I was so impressed especially with the professional, unbiased and sensible threads on this forum.

Nowadays, I am seeing a lot of senseless threads and, the quality is going down day by day.

One thread says, after losing 4-1, India has shown the world why we're #1 and now this.

Nowadays what ever Pak does is fluke and, hence not counted and whatever India achieves is because they don't play Pak.

Although I don't want to say this but I would suggest mods [MENTION=133760]Abdullah719[/MENTION] [MENTION=93712]MenInG[/MENTION][MENTION=25545]giri26[/MENTION] [MENTION=132715]Varun[/MENTION] [MENTION=9]Saj[/MENTION] to keep a check on the threads even if it means reduction in quantity(no.of posters), just to increase quality
 
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Well looking at the recent performance of Pakistan in UAE i don't think Not playing Pakistan is the reason India becams no 1 team in Test
 
Lol, playing against this generation of Pakistani team with the Misbah ul Haq infested batting culture, India would be -5 by now.
 
When will you stop blaming Misbah for everything?

I only blame him for our batting woes today. Azhar Ali is doing a wonderful job of carrying on his legacy.
 
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Well, India are not doing any better than Pakistan in Australia. India would still beat Pakistan in a series, but amusing to see a superior team lose this badly away.
 
Agreed. India should beat Pakistan at home , but I don't know if they will be able to on other pitches.
 
Lol Pakistan are 7 because we don’t play India. Easy ICC points being lost in 3 match Test series
 
I think it's even better if you look at the later results which would suggest an improving trajectory.

Yes, since 1987, when Pakistan won its first series in India, Pakistan's record is as follows.

Matches played 14
Won 4
Lost 3
Drawn 7
 
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