Is Pakistan currently the Test-playing nation with the least talent?

[Muhammad Saad]

Considering the current test cricket landscape, I pose a question regarding Pakistan's talent pool. Specifically, how does Pakistan's cricketing talent compare to that of Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, and the West Indies?

Upon examination, it appears that Bangladesh and Sri Lanka boast more impressive test players, particularly in batting and spin departments. Meanwhile, the West Indies consistently produce above-average batters and fast bowlers, with debutants regularly reaching speeds of 140 km/h.

In terms of emerging young talent, I argue that Pakistan lags significantly behind these nations across all disciplines.

Discuss

 

[Muhammad Saad]

Upcoming players with a good domestic record like Haseebullah , Abdul Faseeh , Mehran , Mubasir Khan , Imran Jnr and Jahandad are definitely not exciting at all if you compare U23 players from BD and SL they are far more exciting and talented than ours. As they have power hitters , 150k pacers and spinners who can turn the ball.

 

[Muhammad Saad]

SL has two U23 pacers who can clock 150k , BD have one and we have none.

 

[Itachi]

Talent is overrated.

Top 3 test playing nations are what is we call "factory". Put the boys in from one side, more often, they will be a competent player (atleast) on the other side.

Unless you have a sysetm in place, you will have to rely on people hoping that they themselves do the same job what these "factories" were supposed to do.

Put the same pakistani boy in aus/eng system and he will be devoid of the weaknesses of pakistani players.

 

[pratiktc]

If we are saying talent is about good eye for shots/fast hands/twitch muscles for bowling fast then ability levels in Pak is on par with anywhere in world and quantum of such resources is probably higher than most other countries except India given high population and cricket.

Problem in Pakistan is difficulty to filter, improve and refine this talent in between ages 13-20. Unless player is lucky enough to fall under eyes of some established cricket academy which is mostly in bigger cities that they dont reach till they are closer to late teens if at all.

If we see Pak U-19 team vs Aus/NZ/Ind/Eng U-19 teams there wont be any major difference in batting or bowling skill levels. But in ground fielding/ running between wkts all the Pak U19 boys are always bit haphazard compared to other counterparts.

 

[Muhammad Saad]

I am talking about raw talent that is good hand eye coordination , power hitting ,quick reflex , twitch fiber muscles and an ability to really give high rev to impart spin. Not talking about polishing and system or anything , just talking about natural ability which our players seems to be lacking horribly compare to other nations.

 

[Muhammad Saad]

I am talking about Jaiswal level type talent for batters and Nahid Rana type raw talent for pacer and AM Ghazanfar and Wellalage type spinning talent.

We are just not producing any talent with raw ability just forget about grooming and improving which was never our strong suit.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Under 19 performance is a fair indication whether talent is coming through or not.

2016 WI vs Inda final WI won
2018 Aus vs Indua final India won
2020 BD vs India final BD won
2022 England vs India final India won
2024 Aus vs India final Aus won

Basically Pakistan did not feature in any of the final. In some editions they didn't even reach semis.

 

[Muhammad Saad]

It will be a joke if you compare Faisal Akram ,Mehran Mumtaz , Jahandad , Azan Awais , Shamyl Hussain ,Imran Junior with AM Ghazanfar , Wellalage , Nahid Rana , Madhushanka , Pathirana , Jaiswal ,Gill etc.

 

[Muhammad Saad]

Under 19 performance is a fair indication whether talent is coming through or not.

2016 WI vs Inda final WI won
2018 Aus vs Indua final India won
2020 BD vs India final BD won
2022 England vs India final India won
2024 Aus vs India final Aus won

Basically Pakistan did not feature in any of the final. In some editions they didn't even reach semis.

We are definitely not producing any batting and spinning talent at U19 level for almost a decade now. Except Imam , Babar and Sami Aslam batch. Fast bowling talent is there though , 2024 batch had the best trio of pacers we ever had at U19 level.

 

[Muhammad Saad]

At least this time we have 3 extremely superb batters and one pace bowling allrounder at U16 level , let's see how they develop when they reach U19 in couple of years.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Nepotism in Pakistan cricket is wide spread. Already mentioned before that 50% of the centrally contracted players are family of ex pakistani players. It's not like other places family and friends are not favored but Pakistan is a special case for such a large cricket mad country.

With cricket maturing to highly professional nature, raw talent counts for nought. This obsession with natural talent is counter productive.

 

[Hellion]

Pakistan has plenty of raw talent. It's the land of natural fast bowlers.

Look at someone like Rauf - 100 % natural and clocking 153 kph.

Us India can only dream of guys from some random village guy rocking up and bowling like that and continuing for 5 years even

Athleticism and durability were never in question.

Problem is PAK cricketers are the dumbest in the world. No cure for that

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

We are definitely not producing any batting and spinning talent at U19 level for almost a decade now. Except Imam , Babar and Sami Aslam batch. Fast bowling talent is there though , 2024 batch had the best trio of pacers we ever had at U19 level.

Another thing I would say is dedicated mentorship for the young cricketers is missing .

 

[Muhammad Saad]

Another thing I would say is dedicated mentorship for the young cricketers is missing .

Dedicated mentorship counts for nothing if you don't have good hand eye coordination , quick reflex , twitch fibers , raw hitting power and an ability to impart high revs. When was the last time we had such players? I am not remembering it.

 

[Muhammad Saad]

We are producing Huraira, Haseebullah, Abdul Faseeh and Azan Awais who all are sitting duck against high pace/bounce and movement and we are producing Faisal Akram , Sufyan and Ali Asfand who can't spin the ball much.

 

[Muhammad Saad]

The only young players who can play high pace/bounce are Abdul Wahid , Maaz Sadaqat , Shamyl Hussain and Saim Ayub but they are dud in other aspects of the game and some can't even play swing/seam as well.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Dedicated mentorship counts for nothing if you don't have good hand eye coordination , quick reflex , twitch fibers , raw hitting power and an ability to impart high revs. When was the last time we had such players? I am not remembering it.

Because most pakistani kids are not part of the old friends and family network. So they don't even get to rise to be noticed. The plague of nepotism is severe man. India got lucky with IPL and money rolling in from the late 90s with economic rise.

 

[Muhammad Saad]

Because most pakistani kids are not part of the old friends and family network. So they don't even get to rise to be noticed. The plague of nepotism is severe man. India got lucky with IPL and money rolling in from the late 90s with economic rise.

It's impossible that some highly talented players in club cricket or u19 league cricket are playing and are not recommended by their coaches to higher level , The coaches themselves will want recognition in discovering rare talent.

In this age of social media it is impossible to not get notified if you have some rare batting or bowling talent. you are just a youtube video away for instant notification.

 

[Muhammad Saad]

See example of Ali Hasnain Badshah , he was discovered as a 12 year old prodigy and now he has a youtube channel and one can clearly see this lad has the potential to play for national team soon.

Another example is Maaz khan , A 15 year old KPK leg spinner who can turn the ball 45 degree even on a marble slab as per the claims of his coaches and media person.

Point is now days it is impossible to not get discovered unless you don't own a smart phone.

 

[Hellion]

The only young players who can play high pace/bounce are Abdul Wahid , Maaz Sadaqat , Shamyl Hussain and Saim Ayub but they are dud in other aspects of the game and some can't even play swing/seam as well.

Mohammad Haris can play high pace

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

It's impossible that some highly talented players in club cricket or u19 league cricket are playing and are not recommended by their coaches to higher level , The coaches themselves will want recognition in discovering rare talent.

In this age of social media it is impossible to not get notified if you have some rare batting or bowling talent. you are just a youtube video away for instant notification.

You are countering yourself here man. Had the scouring and coaching structure been professional. Pakistan by simple law of averages should be among the top 4 cricketing nations.

Honestly, Pakistan never had a proper structure. Most of the former legends simply are quoted how they rose by defeating the "system".

 

[AMSS]

Because most pakistani kids are not part of the old friends and family network. So they don't even get to rise to be noticed. The plague of nepotism is severe man. India got lucky with IPL and money rolling in from the late 90s with economic rise.

Are you a pakistani? If not, how do you know how things work in pakistan? Maybe you are an all knowing Indian?

 

[Muhammad Saad]

Every 2nd person on youtube wants to get viral , so they keep hunting ra

Mohammad Haris can play high pace

Yes add him to the list as well but as I said all these players are dud in other aspects.

 

[AMSS]

You are countering yourself here man. Had the scouring and coaching structure been professional. Pakistan by simple law of averages should be among the top 4 cricketing nations.

Honestly, Pakistan never had a proper structure. Most of the former legends simply are quoted how they rose by defeating the "system".

And Dhoni and Shami and countless others rose because of the system not inspite of it in India?

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

See example of Ali Hasnain Badshah , he was discovered as a 12 year old prodigy and now he has a youtube channel and one can clearly see this lad has the potential to play for national team soon.

Another example is Maaz khan , A 15 year old KPK leg spinner who can turn the ball 45 degree even on a marble slab as per the claims of his coaches and media person.

Point is now days it is impossible to not get discovered unless you don't own a smart phone.

Social media popularity has little correlation with actual talent for sports.

 

[Muhammad Saad]

You are countering yourself here man. Had the scouring and coaching structure been professional. Pakistan by simple law of averages should be among the top 4 cricketing nations.

Honestly, Pakistan never had a proper structure. Most of the former legends simply are quoted how they rose by defeating the "system".

We previously used to get raw talent which were on par with other nations but not now we are simply not getting raw talent , nepotism was there before too and it is there now too.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

And Dhoni and Shami and countless others rose because of the system not inspite of it in India?

I am not claiming we are perfect but the systems are improving and we have unearthed players from all parts of the country and no longer restricted to elite metro city kids.

 

[Hellion]

Every 2nd person on youtube wants to get viral , so they keep hunting ra

Yes add him to the list as well but as I said all these players are dud in other aspects.

No discipline either.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

We previously used to get raw talent which were on par with other nations but not now we are simply not getting raw talent , nepotism was there before too and it is there now too.

As I said, world is moving forward and maturing into professionalism. All the success Pakistan has ever had were in nascent fields where small sparks of brilliance can shine but Pakistan has hardly built an infrastructure of any kind to sustain that.
Where is hockey? Where is Squash? Pakistan was world beater and outright champion in these sports but not even mid tier there. There is a built in culture that despises structure and system. The rebellious champion the one who fights the system.

 

[Muhammad Saad]

As I said, world is moving forward and maturing into professionalism. All the success Pakistan has ever had were in nascent fields where small sparks of brilliance can shine but Pakistan has hardly built an infrastructure of any kind to sustain that.
Where is hockey? Where is Squash? Pakistan was world beater and outright champion in these sports but not even mid tier there. There is a built in culture that despises structure and system. The rebellious champion the one who fights the system.

Nothing to do with system or anything, why on earth we stopped producing raw talent, it’s another story whether they develop or not , get successful or not but where is pure raw talent???

 

[Muhammad Saad]

The last raw talent we produced was M.Amir , Usman Qadir , Shahzad, Umar Akmal and more recently the Babar Azam , I am not talking about success or development but we surely stopped producing even the raw talent compare to all other test playing nations.

It’s more than a decade now we produced raw talent bare Babar Azam.

 

[Muhammad Saad]

We always used to do well in the U19 but now we are not even reaching the finals since almost 10 years

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Nothing to do with system or anything, why on earth we stopped producing raw talent, it’s another story whether they develop or not , get successful or not but where is pure raw talent???

Bhai, game has matured. The level of raw talent to even sparkle has also gone up na. Something that was considered gifted or raw talent 40 years ago is run of the mill skill now.

 

[Muhammad Saad]

Bhai, game has matured. The level of raw talent to even sparkle has also gone up na. Something that was considered gifted or raw talent 40 years ago is run of the mill skill now.

But we are producing players who doesn’t even possess run of the mill skill too , batters who can’t play high pace or quality spin, spinners who can’t turn at all , what’s wrong with us?

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

We always used to do well in the U19 but now we are not even reaching the finals since almost 16 years

Exactly, what I am saying. Earlier U19 performance was a place where raw skill could shine but game has matured and U19 also requires exceptional honing and refinement by the junior system.
Australai U19 has been on a tour of India for the last month or so playing tests and ODI. Rest of the world is getting groomed at much younger age.

 

[Muhammad Saad]

The fast bowlers talent is still intact but the bowlers always choosing short cuts and t20 leagues instead of becoming 4 day bowlers.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

But we are producing players who doesn’t even possess run of the mill skill too , batters who can’t play high pace or quality spin, spinners who can’t turn at all , what’s wrong with us?

That's stagnation of Pakistan over the last 2 decades in general. Honestly, if I were in your place, as a Pakistani fan, I would be genuinely worried with no simply solution in sight.

 

[Muhammad Saad]

Exactly, what I am saying. Earlier U19 performance was a place where raw skill could shine but game has matured and U19 also requires exceptional honing and refinement by the junior system.
Australai U19 has been on a tour of India for the last month or so playing tests and ODI. Rest of the world is getting groomed at much younger age.

Bro you are not getting my point , previously in U19s we used to get batter who could play high pace and quality spin and spinners who could turn the ball , suddenly we are not getting even basic level talent.

 

[jnaveen1980]

Bro you are not getting my point , previously in U19s we used to get batter who could play high pace and quality spin and spinners who could turn the ball , suddenly we are not getting even basic level talent.

Under-19 is India's best feeder system. Has been for the last 20 years. Then they play at state level then at zonal level. For Srilanka school cricket is the feeder system.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Bro you are not getting my point , previously in U19s we used to get batter who could play high pace and quality spin and spinners who could turn the ball , suddenly we are not getting even basic level talent.

U19 of other countries are much better now than what kids 20 years ago.
Kids in India are getting to play with professional gear from the age 10, how do you out compete such resource gap by just pure talent?

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Bro you are not getting my point , previously in U19s we used to get batter who could play high pace and quality spin and spinners who could turn the ball , suddenly we are not getting even basic level talent.

Babar Azam, Shaheen Afridi, Naseem Shah are your natural talent bhai and they are genuinely class players.
Crappy performances are result of other dumb factors.
Fakhar, Imam ul Haq Rizwan .... Pakistan has had genuine players over the years. This is not a shortage of skill thing.

 

[JaDed]

U19 of other countries are much better now than what kids 20 years ago.
Kids in India are getting to play with professional gear from the age 10, how do you out compete such resource gap by just pure talent?

Yeah pretty much, Indian parents are living their dream through their kids , way too much money involved.
U-16 is so serious now I can only imagine U-19.
Heck even in US , Indian parents are putting their daughters and sons to cricket coaching at such an early age, I feel T-20 will become a Norm and the game get very professionalised.

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

Yeah pretty much, Indian parents are living their dream through their kids , way too much money involved.
U-16 is so serious now I can only imagine U-19.
Heck even in US , Indian parents are putting their daughters and sons to cricket coaching at such an early age, I feel T-20 will become a Norm and the game get very professionalized.

I took my niece for a local chess tournament. She competed in her age group. I had time, so registered myself for open category and lo behold there is an 8 year with 2000 ELO rating, with a bottle and a notepad noting down moves. I was so glad I didnt get to play him . These kids are getting trained from such young age.

So much advanced trainings in these school in all sports, I envy these kids, wish we had these chances.

 

[JaDed]

I took my niece for a local chess tournament. She competed in her age group. I had time, so registered myself for open category and lo behold there is an 8 year with 2000 ELO rating, with a bottle and a notepad noting down moves. I was so glad I didnt get to play him . These kids are getting trained from such young age.

So much advanced trainings in these school in all sports, I envy these kids, wish we had these chances.

Lol In all honesty, Chess was big in Chennai back in the day itself, we had the district 86 or something and that itself was a big thing.
A part of my class would just play Chess even during lunch breaks and free periods, and I would join them as well which is where I picked up all defense.
But everything is so big now, coaching motivation, honestly sports is getting the necessary push right now atleast for middle class kids.

 

[emranabbas]

Misbah-ul-Haq single-handedly damaged Pakistan cricket. In 2002, his overly defensive approach saw him rejected, but after 2010, he was suddenly embraced for the very same style. The praise he received as a hero cemented a precedent, encouraging a defensive mindset in the upcoming generation of players.

Now, we face the consequences. Babar Azam, while undoubtedly talented, is also a product of this defensive philosophy.
Players coming up the ranks want to emulate Babar, who continues to carry forward the cautious approach that Misbah popularized.

If we don't break free from this mindset, we risk harming our cricket for generations. The only way forward is to nurture aggressive batsmen who can inspire the next generation, offering a fresh and fearless approach as role models.

 

[ads101]

The days of solely talent are over. We keep clinging onto the idea of discovering new talent and us saving us. But even if you’re talented, superior analysis, camera, technology can identify flaws that are exploited. It’s also who players are tending to debut later too. It is ridiculous in todays age we have unfit not properly physically trained sportsman. If this was a business like uk premier league, this wouldn’t be tolerated.

Fitness, fielding, strength conditioning we are all at the bottom. These are the concrete factors which will improve your team regardless of “talent”. We underestimate these things. They also contribute to mental resilience. It’s is hard to accurately identify talent. It is much easier to improve on talent by improving the things above stated. We’ve seen over the years so much of our talent wasted by just fitness alone.

Tests we especially struggle with players unable to be fit enough to last the entire match playing at full effort. I think the impact of fielding and strength conditioning hurts LOI more, but in every format all three factors are important.

Really players should have dominated domestic for multiple seasons, and in good physical shape before they debut. This is what happens in most professional sport. If you can’t fulfill these two criteria you should not be debuted in the first place.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Under 19 performance is a fair indication whether talent is coming through or not.

2016 WI vs Inda final WI won
2018 Aus vs Indua final India won
2020 BD vs India final BD won
2022 England vs India final India won
2024 Aus vs India final Aus won

Basically Pakistan did not feature in any of the final. In some editions they didn't even reach semis.

They used to be a contender in every U19 back in 2000s

 

[Aang_The_last_airbender]

You have players like Kamran Ghulam rotting their budding careers because they are not friends and families of the special network of Cricketers! That's where lots of talent gets missed time and time again.

 

[emranabbas]

last years domestic top performer sahibzada farhan has not played a single international game after scoring 3 100's and 2 50's in 7 10 innings at an average of 84, who knows these pitches better than him?

 

[ElRaja]

talent is over rated but heres some ground truths

1. given the money in cricket, there are far more kids who will look at cricket as a career option. thirty years ago kids in pak were crazy for cricket, now its the same in other countries too. i saw kids playing two different games of cricket on a beach in England past summer, id never seen that before. so other countries will have more "talent" show through now, compared to pak.

2. pak domestic, club, and informal cricket standards are rubbish, from people who were involved in the system the quality is abysmal compared to thirty years ago. a lot of first class cricketers wouldnt even make grade-2 from the 90s. theres an apathy in the Pakistani youth which has spread to cricket and sports in general, in the 90s we were indoctrinated to believe pak could win anything, rightly or wrongly, whereas i dont think that's the case anymore. a lot of the young kids ive seen come through in pak cricket seem meek and timid, and accept that they arent as good as other country players.

3. the country in general has gone down the drain over the past twenty odd years, the PCB is an extension of the state, cant expect it to outperform the mess that is the country in general.

you need pathways that are open to thousands of kids at the youth level, and trim away the excess until 1000 kids at age level get to 500 at club level, 200 at first-class level, 50 at A-level, and then down to 25 for international. but this will never happen because the PCB is totally useless.