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Is the dream of civilian supremacy dead in Pakistan?

srh

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Civilian supremacy become a dream for most Pakistanis after the first martial law in 60s. Many political parties have strives for it but never succeed.

PTI wanted Civilian supremacy but then they sold their soul to get into power and now you shudder when you see them supporting a dictator Musharaff whom they have previously asked for public hanging for breaking constitution.

PML-N showed that it wanted Civilian supremacy but there was always suspicions about their true motive considering their checkered past and too many skeletons in closets and they sure have backtracked now.

PPP is still asking for Civilian supremacy but they also have a checkered past and too many skeletons in closets like PML-N.

So is Civilian supremacy a dead dream in Pakistan? Should Pakistanis continue to wait for civilian leadership which is honest and would stamp civilian authority?
 
Civilian supremacy become a dream for most Pakistanis after the first martial law in 60s. Many political parties have strives for it but never succeed.

PTI wanted Civilian supremacy but then they sold their soul to get into power and now you shudder when you see them supporting a dictator Musharaff whom they have previously asked for public hanging for breaking constitution.

PML-N showed that it wanted Civilian supremacy but there was always suspicions about their true motive considering their checkered past and too many skeletons in closets and they sure have backtracked now.

PPP is still asking for Civilian supremacy but they also have a checkered past and too many skeletons in closets like PML-N.

So is Civilian supremacy a dead dream in Pakistan? Should Pakistanis continue to wait for civilian leadership which is honest and would stamp civilian authority?

The Millitary will not trust the crooked Nooras and PPP with national security. These are the parties of Hussain Haqqani and Dawn leaks. They trust IK, hence they are on the same page. They know he would rather die than sell out PK, they know the Nooras and PPP will sell PK for a penny.
 
The Millitary will not trust the crooked Nooras and PPP with national security. These are the parties of Hussain Haqqani and Dawn leaks. They trust IK, hence they are on the same page. They know he would rather die than sell out PK, they know the Nooras and PPP will sell PK for a penny.
who the heck is military to trust political parties? Is not Pakistan a democracy? If yes then who gets elected by the public: political parties or military? Who gets to choose who rule the country: public or military? Was military created for Pakistan or Pakistan was created for military?

Really I dont expect a foreign living Pakistani like yourself to try to criminalize civilian supremacy in Pakistan. What future we will have if foreign educated Pakistanis are also not supporting democracy?
 
who the heck is military to trust political parties? Is not Pakistan a democracy? If yes then who gets elected by the public: political parties or military? Who gets to choose who rule the country: public or military? Was military created for Pakistan or Pakistan was created for military?

Really I dont expect a foreign living Pakistani like yourself to try to criminalize civilian supremacy in Pakistan. What future we will have if foreign educated Pakistanis are also not supporting democracy?

Who the heck are the military to trust political parties? Who's neck is on the line if crooked politicians betray the country. If we lived in a proper democracy, and not a lootocracy run for the benefit of family businesses, I would agree with you. Do you really believe that these parties have anything remotely resembling a democratic mindset? If they do, then tell us why only a Bhutto/ Zardari or a Sharif can only ever lead these businesses? I think you need to answer these questions before you get too excited.
 
If anyone expected Sharifs and Bhuttos to stand up for civil supremacy and was trapped in vote ko izat do slogan thn I can only feel sorry for that person.
 
To have civilian supremacy in Pakistan you need one of two things to happen:

1 - Have an Erdogan type leader, who can transform the economy, and then have enough popular support which will force the generals to remain in their constitution role. The best person who can do this for Pakistan is Imran Khan.

2 - To wait a couple of decades and slowly chip away at the Army's power. You need to ensure that their is democratic continuity, and each subsequent democratic government gets stronger and performs better, until finally Civilians are in charge, and the COAS reports to the Defense Minister, instead of being equal to the PM.

Also PTI did not sell out. Had they not worked with the Army, and decided to share power between the PM and COAS, PPP, and PML N would have been willing to cut a deal with the generals to come back into power, since the thing these two parties fear the most is a non family based mainstream political party.

By sharing power PTI has been able to take difficult economic decisions, which has dented their popularity for the time being, and did not go into survival mode like PML N did from 2013 through 2018.
 
The Millitary will not trust the crooked Nooras and PPP with national security. These are the parties of Hussain Haqqani and Dawn leaks. They trust IK, hence they are on the same page. They know he would rather die than sell out PK, they know the Nooras and PPP will sell PK for a penny.

It is not trust if main establishment is holding Imran khan like the puppet. The fact that the definition of puppet suggests blatant clear why Imran Khan cannot be trusted either. :jf
 
No body in Pakistan is dreaming about Civilians supremacy. People love Army, they are very professional institution... They are not involved in religion based extremism that has run down the country to ground, nor they are involved in creating & maintaining factories of puppet tier 1/2/3 politicians for decades and budget; they work off a very small one compare to the challenges they face, rest of the country at times is not thankful enough for their services...All we can say is that we are blessed(well blessing of God is another thing which is keeping us in such good shape as a nation) to have such a carrying Armed Forced...

There are few mad liberals (mostly runway from the country), who want to changer the status co, rest of the population has problems with all the outcome, but not with the main engine 😉😉😉
 
Not at all. Provide good honest day to day governance and you will see civilian supremacy. Indulge in brutal PML N and PPP lootmaar and see the Pakistani awaam begging the faujis to save the country.
 
It is not trust if main establishment is holding Imran khan like the puppet. The fact that the definition of puppet suggests blatant clear why Imran Khan cannot be trusted either. :jf

After the humiliation and bowing to Bajwa and totally destryong your own pathetic story about selected, you quickly move on to another fairy tale.

But according to your friend he is a fascist dictator, now explain to me with your small Noora brain how a dictator can be a puppet. Lol
 
No body in Pakistan is dreaming about Civilians supremacy. People love Army, they are very professional institution... They are not involved in religion based extremism that has run down the country to ground, nor they are involved in creating & maintaining factories of puppet tier 1/2/3 politicians for decades and budget; they work off a very small one compare to the challenges they face, rest of the country at times is not thankful enough for their services...All we can say is that we are blessed(well blessing of God is another thing which is keeping us in such good shape as a nation) to have such a carrying Armed Forced...

There are few mad liberals (mostly runway from the country), who want to changer the status co, rest of the population has problems with all the outcome, but not with the main engine 😉😉😉

Your deluded
The army is the reason for so many problems
Kashmir issue is because of army as a deal was about to be made between NS and Indian government but Pervez had a different idea.
Army trained militias such as JeM and LeT.
Army did Mumbai attacks denting pakistans image.
Army enabled corruption in politics by supporting parties and winning them elections.
Army was the one that made us suffer with terrorists attacks on a daily basis when we decided to enter war on terror.
Army lost us East Pakistan
Army is responsible for disappearances in balochistan.
Army controls institutions in Pakistan which are clearly failing.
Army is much better now imo under Bajwa but still dont make them seem like they are perfect.
 
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They talk about people leaving Pakistan, intelligent souls who can make a difference...
The so-called Brain Drain...

But then I come here to PP and it re-affirms my view that, if indeed such a thing is happening, it’s not to an extreme level..
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">PTV Parliament (the state run channel that telecasts live proceedings of both houses of the Parliament) mutes the sound when those against the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ArmyAct?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#ArmyAct</a> amendment bill said 'No' in the upper house. <a href="https://t.co/SkIVXmeJMy">pic.twitter.com/SkIVXmeJMy</a></p>— Ali Salman Alvi (@alisalmanalvi) <a href="https://twitter.com/alisalmanalvi/status/1214859394514587648?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 8, 2020</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
After the humiliation and bowing to Bajwa and totally destryong your own pathetic story about selected, you quickly move on to another fairy tale.

But according to your friend he is a fascist dictator, now explain to me with your small Noora brain how a dictator can be a puppet. Lol

As I explained in other thread, any misconceptions over Imran’s authority have been completely laid to recent in recent times. Some people, including myself, were wrongly under the misapprehension that Imran will try to be his own man when he becomes the PM and will try to become the first leader since Z. Bhutto to try and keep military power in check.

Unfortunately, Imran proved that he is a puppet with the way he took shameless U-turns on Musharraf, COAS extension and was helpless when Nawaz left the country without paying a penny.

Nothing is different under this government. The military is still holding all the cards. Before you blame Nawaz for taking a U-turn on Musharraf, let me say this.

In spite of his latest show of cowardice and how he struck a deal to get out of jail, Nawaz has the distinction of being the only civilian leader in Pakistan’s history to file a treason case against a military dictator. Regardless of his mistakes, U-turns and latest show of cowardice, he still holds this unique distinction which proves that he has more guts than someone like Imran will ever have.
 
Civil supremacy died in Pakistan when M. Jinnah died in 1948 and the military occupied the power vacuum. M. Jinnah smelled the rats early and made it clear that the military will not interfere in politics and will respect civilian supremacy. Unfortunately, his words were completely disregarded by the same military that now proudly displays his portrait in every office.

What they did to his sister, what they did to East Pakistan and how they repeatedly sold the country for personal gains will never be forgotten. Not to mention how they have built a massive business empire and is the only “all in one” military in the world with expertise in defense, politics, economics, sports, food manufacturing, real estate, television etc. etc.
[MENTION=1269]Bewal Express[/MENTION] it is not for the military to trust the government. In fact it is should be the other way around - the government has to trust the military and the military has to ensure that they earn the trust of the government.

They put their necks on the line but no one forced them to join the army. They are the ones who chose this career. Besides, the military top brass do not put their necks on the line. Only the poor soldiers do who don’t take the decisions.

Imran is not trusted by the military either. They are on the same page today but the page number has been decided by the military. As soon as Imran starts to interfere in strategic decisions and foreign policy, he will have the same fate as Nawaz and Bhuttos before him.

The military does not respect the constitution. The COAS is a subordinate of the PM, President and Defense Minister but practically in Pakistan it is the other way around.

In the aftermath of the assassination of Suleimani, Pompeo phoned either the PM, the president or the Foreign Office of different countries. Pakistan was the only country where he ignored Imran, the President Alvi, and the word-chewing, fake pir masquerading as the Foreign Minister. Why? Because unlike cult-followers, Pompeo knows who holds the real power in Pakistan.

That is why no one takes Imran seriously and why Pakistan has no credibility.
 
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Civil supremacy died in Pakistan when M. Jinnah died in 1948 and the military occupied the power vacuum. M. Jinnah smelled the rats early and made it clear that the military will not interfere in politics and will respect civilian supremacy. Unfortunately, his words were completely disregarded by the same military that now proudly displays his portrait in every office.

What they did to his sister, what they did to East Pakistan and how they repeatedly sold the country for personal gains will never be forgotten. Not to mention how they have built a massive business empire and is the only “all in one” military in the world with expertise in defense, politics, economics, sports, food manufacturing, real estate, television etc. etc.
[MENTION=1269]Bewal Express[/MENTION] it is not for the military to trust the government. In fact it is should be the other way around - the government has to trust the military and the military has to ensure that they earn the trust of the government.

They put their necks on the line but no one forced them to join the army. They are the ones who chose this career. Besides, the military top brass do not put their necks on the line. Only the poor soldiers do who don’t take the decisions.

Imran is not trusted by the military either. They are on the same page today but the page number has been decided by the military. As soon as Imran starts to interfere in strategic decisions and foreign policy, he will have the same fate as Nawaz and Bhuttos before him.

The military does not respect the constitution. The COAS is a subordinate of the PM, President and Defense Minister but practically in Pakistan it is the other way around.

In the aftermath of the assassination of Suleimani, Pompeo phoned either the PM, the president or the Foreign Office of different countries. Pakistan was the only country where he ignored Imran, the President Alvi, and the word-chewing, fake pir masquerading as the Foreign Minister. Why? Because unlike cult-followers, Pompeo knows who holds the real power in Pakistan.

That is why no one takes Imran seriously and why Pakistan has no credibility.

I agree its not Millitary job to run the country but its not the politicians job to use it steal its resources and launder them and then create laws which make it impossible to catch them, but these losers have.Its not the job of politicans to create family dynasties where the political parties are passed onto to losers that cant even speak the national language, but Billo is a living example. Its not the politicians job to put the country at risk through crooks like Haqqani but they have.
As far IK is concerned, you may not take him seriously but there was some idiot that called him a fascist dictator! Why dont you find that thread and explain to that ***** why a fascist dictator doesnt have any power, i look forward to that debate! lol
 
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Leave aside Pakistan, civilian supremacy in any country across the globe is an illusion. Don't have to single out Pakistan here when it's the same case pretty much everywhere.
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">PTV Parliament (the state run channel that telecasts live proceedings of both houses of the Parliament) mutes the sound when those against the <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ArmyAct?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#ArmyAct</a> amendment bill said 'No' in the upper house. <a href="https://t.co/SkIVXmeJMy">pic.twitter.com/SkIVXmeJMy</a></p>— Ali Salman Alvi (@alisalmanalvi) <a href="https://twitter.com/alisalmanalvi/status/1214859394514587648?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 8, 2020</a></blockquote>
<script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
[MENTION=1269]Bewal Express[/MENTION] what is this? Care to explain?
 
Short answer: Yes, at least for time-being.

Anyone who in the slightest believed that the dream of civilian supremacy was alive or that PMLN/PPP were anti-establishment are delusional.
 
I am not sure why, especially as the Nooras and Billos are falling at the feet of Bajwa.

They are following the footsteps of Imran who shamelessly went from:

“Generals did not get extensions even during WWII. When you give an general extension, you weaken the institution and the strengthen the individual”

To:

“Please give my boss an extension because he is too intoxicated with power and is not ready to give up his seat for the next in line”

PTV is state-operated, so why is the state silencing the opinions of the parliamentarians who do not want the amendment?

Who is the head of state?

Are you sure you are not sure why they were silenced? If you try hard enough, you will remember the answer.

Repeat after me:

There is no civil supremacy in Pakistan

There is no civil supremacy in Pakistan

There is no.....
 
They are following the footsteps of Imran who shamelessly went from:

“Generals did not get extensions even during WWII. When you give an general extension, you weaken the institution and the strengthen the individual”

To:

“Please give my boss an extension because he is too intoxicated with power and is not ready to give up his seat for the next in line”

PTV is state-operated, so why is the state silencing the opinions of the parliamentarians who do not want the amendment?

Who is the head of state?

Are you sure you are not sure why they were silenced? If you try hard enough, you will remember the answer.

Repeat after me:

There is no civil supremacy in Pakistan

There is no civil supremacy in Pakistan

There is no.....

You can't get over the fact that they sold you idiots a dummy. Most PTI supporters like Bajwa and support his extension and rightly so at this juncture. But what happened to the umpires finger and vote ki izzat. Total humiliation and destruction of their own narrative. I love every moment of your humiliation.
Btw do you think it's wrong to stop the opposition voices from being heard on Ptv? Think carefully before you answer
 
The only real establishment in the country is PML N and PPP
 
To have civilian supremacy in Pakistan you need one of two things to happen:

1 - Have an Erdogan type leader, who can transform the economy, and then have enough popular support which will force the generals to remain in their constitution role. The best person who can do this for Pakistan is Imran Khan.

2 - To wait a couple of decades and slowly chip away at the Army's power. You need to ensure that their is democratic continuity, and each subsequent democratic government gets stronger and performs better, until finally Civilians are in charge, and the COAS reports to the Defense Minister, instead of being equal to the PM.

Also PTI did not sell out. Had they not worked with the Army, and decided to share power between the PM and COAS, PPP, and PML N would have been willing to cut a deal with the generals to come back into power, since the thing these two parties fear the most is a non family based mainstream political party.

By sharing power PTI has been able to take difficult economic decisions, which has dented their popularity for the time being, and did not go into survival mode like PML N did from 2013 through 2018.

Brilliant post and totally agree! Also nice thread [MENTION=21215]srh[/MENTION] and valid question.

I can see so many frustrated people who think there will never civilian supremacy but i definitely think our democracy is maturing and we are heading in the right direction. Yes they still have control in the background but this is a progress already from days where they used to take over whenever they wanted (it will NOT happen anymore).

Without being 1% biased against Sharif and Zardari clan, i think you will be living in fool's paradise if you think they will ever bring civilian supremacy, It's NOT their concern and neither their priority, yes they have used it to gain support of people who do genuinely care about supremacy. They are way way too corrupt, power hungry and selfish to make it their priority. Look at Nawaz Sharif, after all these years he is still making deals and will be making whenever it suits him.
[MENTION=21215]srh[/MENTION] I have never seen you supporting Imran Khan so can understand your biased comments that he sold his soul. People sell their souls for obvious gains, can you tell me what is the gain here really? There has been personal benefits for Imran Khan and there will NEVER be so has he done this to satisfy his ego as he loves people calling him "Prime Minister"? Yes Imran Khan has definitely made compromises and this is no different to his compromises on kind of people he accepted in the party. In short, these are system limitations he is operating within (HE DID NOT CREATE THIS LIMITATIONS).

Also, Army is not an EVIL group that just wants power by hook or crook. Whether you like them or hate them (for whatever reasons) but they are professional people (mostly educated) and can compete with any other Army. We have/had extremely PATHETIC political system where genuine, educated and middle class people can't get elected and hence we have bunch of corrupt, greedy and uneducated people sitting on top positions. I hold people like Zia ul Haq most responsible for this situation because they did not only damaged the democracy and murdered genuine leader like Bhutto but also brought in "KACHRA" like Nawaz Sharif.

Imran Khan is your best hope now, he has no corruption cases or personal aims. If he can fix the Economy (in progress already) and get elected twice, no one will dare to push their boundaries.
 
Also, Bangladesh is an example. Did they have military coups and Army involvement in politics? Of course they did, their Economy has improved substantially under current leadership so people have lot more faith in their democracy. I don't think the current regime took the most democratic ways to fix the system as well, they did it by hook or crook. They sent the opposition leaders to jail (i think Khalida Zia is still in jail?) on corruption charges (which is anti democratic in our country). Their journalists were targeted, Jamat e Islami was attacked (for right or wrong reasons is different topic) so it wasn't clean and nice democratic process. I don't even think opposition exists there anymore? (maybe a Bangladeshi can explain). Fix the economy, genuinely serve the people earn the respect and see if any General touches you.
 
You can't get over the fact that they sold you idiots a dummy. Most PTI supporters like Bajwa and support his extension and rightly so at this juncture. But what happened to the umpires finger and vote ki izzat. Total humiliation and destruction of their own narrative. I love every moment of your humiliation.
Btw do you think it's wrong to stop the opposition voices from being heard on Ptv? Think carefully before you answer

The only idiots who were sold a dummy are PTI cult-followers. Imran Khan promised accountability and justice and he couldn’t do anything when his boss allowed Nawaz to leave the country without paying a dime.

Then the idiots were sold the “$12 billion” dummy and they started dancing again because reality dawned on them.

Cult-followers have some nerve to talk about the destruction of narrative because that is exactly what your leader has done.

Are Imran’s shameless U-turns on Musharraf and COAS extension not destruction of his own narrative?

Furthermore, I don’t have to think “carefully” before I answer because I am not interested in your deflection. This isn’t the first instance of the opposition getting silenced on PTV, but we are in Naya Pakistan and according to Youthopian logic, we now have civil supremacy.

So if that is the case, what is PTV afraid of? What happened to Imran’s claims that he will give the opposition freedom of speech? Does he have any shame and credibility left?
 
Can only feel sorry for worthless patwaris.... Their beloved leader had them believe he was fighting for civilian supremacy but in the end he showed once again the taste of boots is just too amazing to forego..... RIP patwari hopes and dreams. Inshallah establishment will help IK win again in 2023 and 2027. Karlo jo karna hai :afridi
 
The only idiots who were sold a dummy are PTI cult-followers. Imran Khan promised accountability and justice and he couldn’t do anything when his boss allowed Nawaz to leave the country without paying a dime.

Then the idiots were sold the “$12 billion” dummy and they started dancing again because reality dawned on them.

Cult-followers have some nerve to talk about the destruction of narrative because that is exactly what your leader has done.

Are Imran’s shameless U-turns on Musharraf and COAS extension not destruction of his own narrative?

Furthermore, I don’t have to think “carefully” before I answer because I am not interested in your deflection. This isn’t the first instance of the opposition getting silenced on PTV, but we are in Naya Pakistan and according to Youthopian logic, we now have civil supremacy.

So if that is the case, what is PTV afraid of? What happened to Imran’s claims that he will give the opposition freedom of speech? Does he have any shame and credibility left?

before*
 
who the heck is military to trust political parties? Is not Pakistan a democracy? If yes then who gets elected by the public: political parties or military? Who gets to choose who rule the country: public or military? Was military created for Pakistan or Pakistan was created for military?

Really I dont expect a foreign living Pakistani like yourself to try to criminalize civilian supremacy in Pakistan. What future we will have if foreign educated Pakistanis are also not supporting democracy?

You yourself whine constantly about the general Pakistani public, now here you are wanting them to be given more authority. I myself am a believer in democracy, but at least I am not a hypocrite.

Perhaps one day in the not too distant future, they will continue to improve their outlook and be worthy of the sort of democracy we see in first world countries.
 
If democracy gives us corrupt crooks like Sharifs and Zardaris, I would happily vote for a martial law.

The funniest thing in this matter is the fact that some people actually believe that these thieves are some kind of democratic heroes, fighting for civilian supremacy in Pakistan.

The fact of the matter is that the only argument they can use at the moment is the same "Imran is a selected PM" crap. Meanwhile, the ultimate hero of democracy Nawaz Sharif runs out of the country after licking the same "selector's" boots.

PMLN and PPP's narrative is built around this propaganda of blaming Imran and the Army for everything bad. However, the whole narrative drowned when they decided to back the government on Army Act bill.

If Imran and the Army can revive Pakistan's economy and free it from the mess left by these crooks, then there is absolutely no need for this fake democratic thieves to come back.
 
We'll get to civilian supremacy when civilian institutions are working.

Name me one civilian institution that you can be satisfied with. None?

Yeah, thought so.

And then people say the Establishment is very strong. Well, if the civilians won't get their act together and remain petty crooks then of course some strong entity has to step up to take control of things to prevent chaos. The only institution that has done a satisfactory job is the Pakistan Army. You can't expect civilians to act like selfish idiots yet remain in power while the army blindly follows the orders. That's just a recipe for disaster. Corruption is ingrained from the lowest grade govt. officer to the highest grade one.

These civilians need to get their act together before they point fingers at the army for being in control.

First, make civilian institutions independent and corruption-free and watch civilian supremacy skyrocket.
 
If democracy gives us corrupt crooks like Sharifs and Zardaris, I would happily vote for a martial law.

The funniest thing in this matter is the fact that some people actually believe that these thieves are some kind of democratic heroes, fighting for civilian supremacy in Pakistan.

The fact of the matter is that the only argument they can use at the moment is the same "Imran is a selected PM" crap. Meanwhile, the ultimate hero of democracy Nawaz Sharif runs out of the country after licking the same "selector's" boots.

PMLN and PPP's narrative is built around this propaganda of blaming Imran and the Army for everything bad. However, the whole narrative drowned when they decided to back the government on Army Act bill.

If Imran and the Army can revive Pakistan's economy and free it from the mess left by these crooks, then there is absolutely no need for this fake democratic thieves to come back.

The only people who support the TTF's, who increased our foreign debts from $36 billion to $100 billion in the last ten years with zero explanation, who support sticking to a rotten corrupt system with zero checks and balances are the beneficiaries of the corrupt system.
 
We'll get to civilian supremacy when civilian institutions are working.

Name me one civilian institution that you can be satisfied with. None?

Yeah, thought so.

And then people say the Establishment is very strong. Well, if the civilians won't get their act together and remain petty crooks then of course some strong entity has to step up to take control of things to prevent chaos. The only institution that has done a satisfactory job is the Pakistan Army. You can't expect civilians to act like selfish idiots yet remain in power while the army blindly follows the orders. That's just a recipe for disaster. Corruption is ingrained from the lowest grade govt. officer to the highest grade one.

These civilians need to get their act together before they point fingers at the army for being in control.

First, make civilian institutions independent and corruption-free and watch civilian supremacy skyrocket.

You can’t expect civil institutions to be independent and get their act together when the military does not provide them any breathing space.

Since 1948, the military has been the de facto power in the country. They have been shaping our foreign policy every since.

Every civilian government is in survival mode because it has to appease the military and earn their trust, because if they don’t, they don’t have a chance of surviving.

How can civilian governments deliver with a noose around their neck?

PTI supporters are now doing bhangra over how the government and the military are on the same page now, but what they don’t realize is that the page number has been decided by the military. They are still dictating the terms.

Imran’s shameless U-turns on Musharraf and the COAS extension is all the proof anyone needs to understand that he is powerless.

Pakistan is the only military in the world with a business empire worth billions and who are experts in all fields ranging from defense, politics, economics, sports, real estate, civil aviation, transport, food manufacturing and television etc.

When your military has infiltrated every department you cannot blame them for being dysfunctional. As far as corruption is concerned, the military brass is extremely corrupt as well but the difference is that they are not subjected to accountability.

The military does not play a prominent role because civil institutions are incompetent; the military plays a prominent role because they have made the civil institutions incompetent.
 
Civil what? Look at PMLN after the new software!!!

PAC chief Rana Tanvir of PMLN clears all objections on defence purchases without scrutiny

ISLAMABAD: The newly elected chairman of the Public Accounts Committee (PAC), Rana Tanvir Hussain, has cleared all the 14 audit objections raised by the Auditor General of Pakistan (AGP) on procurements made by the army, navy and air force.

Mr Hussain, in an audit of the defence production ministry’s accounts for 2012-13, cleared these paras without even examining them separately.

The leniency shown by Rana Tanvir, who succeeded PML-N chief Shahbaz Sharif as PAC chairman, appears to have perturbed even some members of his own party. Former speaker Sardar Ayaz Sadiq remarked in a lighter vein that he might write a note of dissent for settlement of the audit paras in haste.

Likewise, Noor Alam Khan of the Pakistan Tehreek-i-Insaf (PTI) and Syed Naveed Qamar of the Peoples Party disapproved of settling the audit paras without perusal.

Mr Hussain even expressed displeasure over framing of rules for the Public Procurement Regulatory Authority (PPRA) in a manner that results in audit objections and leads to creation of audit paras after two officers in uniform struggled while trying to justify procurement of weapons without following rules.

A member of the National Assembly said such rules had landed a good number of opposition legislators in jail.

“We are reviewing these rules,” said Finance Secretary Naveed Kamran Baloch. He said the finance ministry was examining a proposal made by the PPRA for improving rules. The finance secretary acts as the regulatory body’s chairman.

The audit report had objected that the naval headquarters negotiated a proposal for procurement of weapons and sensors for boats from a Chinese firm. The firm initially offered to supply the sensors at a cost of $13.9 million per system. Since the amount was considered too high, the navy held fresh negotiations with the firm, after which the latter agreed to bring down the quoted price to $10.3m per boat with some changes in specifications.

According to the objection, the contract was not subject to change. The audit, however, left it to the PAC to settle the objection.

The report pointed out irregularities in the upgrade of 24 F-16 aircraft.

The auditors recommended that the director general of Defence Purchase take up the matter with the Finance Division.

The audit report further pointed out that according to the contract for procurement of Heavy Sniper Rifles, “the supplier shall be bound to extend the validity of bank guarantee and in case of unsatisfactory performance, the same will be forfeited”.

However, the encashment process could not be processed timely as a result of that performance bank guarantee expired and the bank issuing the guarantee refused to encash it, which resulted in the loss of Rs65.63 million.

The audit observed that directorate general procurement (army) and military accountant general were responsible for that lapse. However, the military accountant general has informed the departmental accounts committee that the matter has been inquired and the action has also been taken in this regard.

Subsequently, the audit recommended that the para may also be settled.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1527406
 
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At least quote properly so that others can reply to you.

Breathing space? Come up with facts rather than vague theories.

Vague theories? Are you aware of Pakistan’s history?

Why did the generals conspire against Liaquat Ali Khan in 1951?

Why did Gen. Ayub declare Fatima Jinnah an Indian and American agent?

Why did Gen. Ayub discriminate against the East Pakistanis and fueled the separatist movement?

Why did Zia have Junejo disposed as PM when the latter was willing to sign the accord to end the Soviet Afghan war?

I hope I don’t have to talk about the relatively modern history because I am sure you are aware of it. These are not vague theories, these are facts.

All this corruption is a smokescreen. Nawaz did not become corrupt post 2013, but the military had no problem with his corruption as long as he was doing their bidding.

Military plays a role in every major country's foreign policy.

Correct, but the Pakistani military is the sole actor in Pakistan’s foreign policy. Our civilian government has no say in it.

When a military is the central power in a country, that country cannot be stable and cannot be at peace, because war and conflict is what keeps the military the central power.

In any country, no power is stronger than the power of the masses. If what you say is true then our people must be really beghairat (which isn't true btw).

Won't bother answering the rest as its just recycled crap that every single army hater comes up with.

The masses are not beghairat but they follow a narrative. They will never be able to think for themselves because of lack of information. This is how it works in every country.

The Pakistani masses have been fed a pro-military propaganda for over 65 years and their eyes are closed to the atrocities of this institution.

The Pakistani military has compromised the national security of Pakistan for playing the role of U.S. mercenary on multiple occasions, they lost East Pakistan and were made to surrender by the Indian army in humiliating fashion.

While we parade one Abhinandan, India have 90,000 Pakistani Abhindans.

They did unspeakable things to the sister of the founder of Pakistan whose portrait they proudly display in their offices.

They have illegally occupied Balochistan and have kept them poor and hungry as part of their policy to keep the separatist movement weak.

They have treated the people of FATA like animals and did nothing to reverse the draconian FCR laws imposed by the British. When Nawaz Sharif government decided to amend the laws, the military was clearly not happy.

In spite of all their big talk, they have not been able to grab an inch of Kashmir since 1947. They thump their chests on AJK, which was won for them by the tribals whom they have butchered over the decades.

They have started multiple wars on Kashmir with zero end result.

I can go on and on and on and on.

In spite of all of their failures, the military propaganda has ensured that they are viewed as the guardian angels of the country and the only professional institution in the country.

A “professional” instituton whose COAS is desperate to cling onto power. If it is so professional and disciplined, why is the next COAS apparently not ready to take over? What will happen if Bajwa respects the law and moves aside?

Why did Imran take a U-turn on this as well as on Musharraf?

Of course you would call this recycled anti-army crap and won’t answer because you don’t have an answer.
 
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