Is the UK going to split?

[ElRaja]

The video neglects to mention that there weren’t all that many ethnic Germans in the area ceded to Poland. Even when that region was part of Prussia, I doubt the Germans formed the majority there.

at the time of reunification yes, but those areas were historically german for three or four hundred years and were ethnically cleansed of germans post ww2. now pragmatically you are right and the price to pay to force the issue was probably not worth it, however there was definitely an argument to state German claims on those lands had some justification.

 

[Nostalgic]

at the time of reunification yes, but those areas were historically german for three or four hundred years and were ethnically cleansed of germans post ww2. now pragmatically you are right and the price to pay to force the issue was probably not worth it, however there was definitely an argument to state German claims on those lands had some justification.

But my understanding was that even during Prussia and later the German Empire and finally the Third Reich, that region wasn’t German-majority. Correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

I had a few questions. During The Troubles, Sinn Fein were often mentioned in the press as the political wing of the IRA, but it was more nuanced than that, wasn’t it? If I remember correctly, Sinn Fein predate the IRA by quite a bit, or is my age catching up with me? Also weren’t they at the forefront of the independence movement? So how did they end up being supplanted by Fiana Fail and Fine Gael?

Firstly, your knowledge is quite impressive, where'd you get it? You know more than many here haha.

Robert's given an excellent summary but here's the jist.

Sinn Fein were founded by Arthur Griffith (big trade unionist) in the early 20th century off the back of the revival of Gaelic culture movements that sprang up at the end of the 19th century, the most notable of which would be the GAA (by far the biggest sporting organisation in Ireland). There was a cultural shift in this time as Ireland basically began to properly resent the colonial culture planted here and began promoting and raising awareness of our indigenous culture. SF basically grew from this cultural shift as a pro independence party.

As Robert said, in the final Westminster elections held here Sinn Fein romped home and took nearly all of the Irish seats. They adopted an abstentionist policy i.e refused to recognise the Westminster government therefore refused to take their seats. They formed a breakaway Government, Dail Eireann. The War for Independence broke out not long after, and SF and the IRA naturally fought for independence, although I believe the IRA and SF remained distinct eintities at this time, albeit very closely linked with many dual members.

The War eventually ended in whats known as the Anglo Irish Treaty, whereby the Republic as it is today won Dominion status in the Commonwealth and the right to self govern in many areas, including crucially in defence. The downside to this however is that this treaty is what partitioned Ireland, as the North did not want to break away from its current union with the UK in any form, hence partition occurred, whereby the 26 counties got their limited self governance in Dublin under Dail Eireann, whereas the Unionists got Stormont Parliament.

This caused severe tension and ultimately a split in Sinn Fein. This split the party into two factions. Sinn Fein who were pro Treaty (i.e the compromise of partition was worth the sacrifice of the North as the IRA could never win a full war vs the UK, in fact even getting the Treaty was a massive diplomatic victory) and the anti Treatu Fianna Fail (either all of Ireland broke off or nothing, didnt want to accept partition and viewed it as a sellout to the UK).

Ironically enough it was Fianna Fail who would go on to dominate a partitioned Ireland while Sinn Fein quickly fell into obscurity outside of NI and regularly polled only 3-5 percent in the Republic up to the turn of the millenium. SF did eventually morph into being the political wing of the Provisional IRA, and in fact many Provo's are no doubt still heavily involved. So SF do not really predate the original IRA who fought the independence war, but they do predate the Provisional IRA who were founded in the late sixties, who they essentially became the political wing of, releasing statements and the like. The running gag in Irish politics is to repeat that Gerry Adams was never in the PIRA, as he was never legally convicted of, despite the fact that he was its literal leader for about three decades lol.

Your confusion there likely arises due to the PIRA being generally called the IRA, despite them technically being seperate groups. Lets not even get into Continuity IRA, Real IRA lol, it's a bit like a supermarket shelf just with guns.

Fine Gael are a seperate entity entirely, they represented large farmers traditonally and aren't related to SF in any real way. Originally Cumann na NGaedhael, they held power in the 1920's post civil war before They rebranding as a far right movement under Eoin O'Duffy bafflingly enough, blueshirt uniform and salute gestures and everything. Hell they even fought for Franco in the Spanish Civil War. They were always very fringe up until post WW2 when they took their current stance of centre right and became unrecognisable from its roots and history which they, unsurprisingly, tend to keep quiet.

The main reason I can vaguely recall why SF became an irrelevance outside NI for so long and so soon is that FF basically copied their election strategies and political vote winning moves to a tee i.e strong parish based political structure, heavily local focused and a more than small dose of you scratch my back I scratch yours. FF also from its foundation also had many of the most popular members of SF from its outset, so although there was a general feeling of annoyance at them causing a Civil War, they were still seen as being "pro Irish patriots" in lieu of another term.

 

[Nostalgic]

Firstly, your knowledge is quite impressive, where'd you get it? You know more than many here haha.

Robert's given an excellent summary but here's the jist.

Sinn Fein were founded by Arthur Griffith (big trade unionist) in the early 20th century off the back of the revival of Gaelic culture movements that sprang up at the end of the 19th century, the most notable of which would be the GAA (by far the biggest sporting organisation in Ireland). There was a cultural shift in this time as Ireland basically began to properly resent the colonial culture planted here and began promoting and raising awareness of our indigenous culture. SF basically grew from this cultural shift as a pro independence party.

As Robert said, in the final Westminster elections held here Sinn Fein romped home and took nearly all of the Irish seats. They adopted an abstentionist policy i.e refused to recognise the Westminster government therefore refused to take their seats. They formed a breakaway Government, Dail Eireann. The War for Independence broke out not long after, and SF and the IRA naturally fought for independence, although I believe the IRA and SF remained distinct eintities at this time, albeit very closely linked with many dual members.

The War eventually ended in whats known as the Anglo Irish Treaty, whereby the Republic as it is today won Dominion status in the Commonwealth and the right to self govern in many areas, including crucially in defence. The downside to this however is that this treaty is what partitioned Ireland, as the North did not want to break away from its current union with the UK in any form, hence partition occurred, whereby the 26 counties got their limited self governance in Dublin under Dail Eireann, whereas the Unionists got Stormont Parliament.

This caused severe tension and ultimately a split in Sinn Fein. This split the party into two factions. Sinn Fein who were pro Treaty (i.e the compromise of partition was worth the sacrifice of the North as the IRA could never win a full war vs the UK, in fact even getting the Treaty was a massive diplomatic victory) and the anti Treatu Fianna Fail (either all of Ireland broke off or nothing, didnt want to accept partition and viewed it as a sellout to the UK).

Ironically enough it was Fianna Fail who would go on to dominate a partitioned Ireland while Sinn Fein quickly fell into obscurity outside of NI and regularly polled only 3-5 percent in the Republic up to the turn of the millenium. SF did eventually morph into being the political wing of the Provisional IRA, and in fact many Provo's are no doubt still heavily involved. So SF do not really predate the original IRA who fought the independence war, but they do predate the Provisional IRA who were founded in the late sixties, who they essentially became the political wing of, releasing statements and the like. The running gag in Irish politics is to repeat that Gerry Adams was never in the PIRA, as he was never legally convicted of, despite the fact that he was its literal leader for about three decades lol.

Your confusion there likely arises due to the PIRA being generally called the IRA, despite them technically being seperate groups. Lets not even get into Continuity IRA, Real IRA lol, it's a bit like a supermarket shelf just with guns.

Fine Gael are a seperate entity entirely, they represented large farmers traditonally and aren't related to SF in any real way. Originally Cumann na NGaedhael, they held power in the 1920's post civil war before They rebranding as a far right movement under Eoin O'Duffy bafflingly enough, blueshirt uniform and salute gestures and everything. Hell they even fought for Franco in the Spanish Civil War. They were always very fringe up until post WW2 when they took their current stance of centre right and became unrecognisable from its roots and history which they, unsurprisingly, tend to keep quiet.

The main reason I can vaguely recall why SF became an irrelevance outside NI for so long and so soon is that FF basically copied their election strategies and political vote winning moves to a tee i.e strong parish based political structure, heavily local focused and a more than small dose of you scratch my back I scratch yours. FF also from its foundation also had many of the most popular members of SF from its outset, so although there was a general feeling of annoyance at them causing a Civil War, they were still seen as being "pro Irish patriots" in lieu of another term.

Thank you for the compliment! I guess three decades plus of voracious reading does have its benefits, but even apart from that, there are many in the subcontinent who have had an affinity for the Republican cause given their struggles against the British yoke, and I say this in spite of being something of an Anglophile. Furthermore, the ones in Pakistan were likely to see the Republicans as kindred spirits since we too felt betrayed out of achieving independence over the entirety of the territories we lay claim over: Jinnah’s comments about a “truncated” and “moth-eaten” Pakistan come to mind. Growing up, we actually had quite a bit of Irish literature featured in our English textbooks: Yeats and his unrequited love for Maud Gonne, lots of Joyce, and then even some relatively obscure names like Liam O’Flaherty, so that certainly had the effect of developing a fascination for the Emerald Isle, and after school, the old reliable reading habit took care of the rest.

And thanks for the detailed explanation. I find it ironic that Sinn Fein who were pro-treaty ended up being the champions of reunification later on in the 20th century, whereas the anti-treaty Fianna Fáil became known as one of the two establishment parties.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

Thank you for the compliment! I guess three decades plus of voracious reading does have its benefits, but even apart from that, there are many in the subcontinent who have had an affinity for the Republican cause given their struggles against the British yoke, and I say this in spite of being something of an Anglophile. Furthermore, the ones in Pakistan were likely to see the Republicans as kindred spirits since we too felt betrayed out of achieving independence over the entirety of the territories we lay claim over: Jinnah’s comments about a “truncated” and “moth-eaten” Pakistan come to mind. Growing up, we actually had quite a bit of Irish literature featured in our English textbooks: Yeats and his unrequited love for Maud Gonne, lots of Joyce, and then even some relatively obscure names like Liam O’Flaherty, so that certainly had the effect of developing a fascination for the Emerald Isle, and after school, the old reliable reading habit took care of the rest.

And thanks for the detailed explanation. I find it ironic that Sinn Fein who were pro-treaty ended up being the champions of reunification later on in the 20th century, whereas the anti-treaty Fianna Fáil became known as one of the two establishment parties.

Surprised. Wouldn't have thought eastern education would be so western influenced.

I was aware Ireland and India had fairly close links during our brief Commonwealth stint, as we were quite pivotal in ensuring Dominion states earned more independence which subsequently allowed us to repeal the External Relations Act in 1949 and officially leave the Commonwealth, ditch the Monarchy and become a republic, wasn't aware of any pakistan links. I have heard the Indian flag was somewhat inspired by our own (could well be hogwash tbf) but I do know some Indian students, and one eventual Indian president quite curiously, were involved in the Easter Rising.

 

[Technics 1210]

Replace IRA with Hamas in this thread and one would be accused of being a terrorist sympathiser.

I guess its true in what they say; one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

 

[Nostalgic]

Surprised. Wouldn't have thought eastern education would be so western influenced.

I was aware Ireland and India had fairly close links during our brief Commonwealth stint, as we were quite pivotal in ensuring Dominion states earned more independence which subsequently allowed us to repeal the External Relations Act in 1949 and officially leave the Commonwealth, ditch the Monarchy and become a republic, wasn't aware of any pakistan links. I have heard the Indian flag was somewhat inspired by our own (could well be hogwash tbf) but I do know some Indian students, and one eventual Indian president quite curiously, were involved in the Easter Rising.

Well, the English textbooks have to include works in English. Besides there’s a whole network of private schools that hew to the traditions of the Raj-era.

There weren’t any Pakistani links per se, more a case of many in Pakistan feeling something of an affinity for the Irish, at least the ones inclined towards reading history.

Going back to schools for a bit, there are still some so-called Convent schools, which in the past actually had Catholic nuns as teachers (including many Irish ones), but these days there are few nuns, mostly local Christian teachers, not all of them Catholic. These schools actually admit boys up to the primary level, but are girls-only beyond that. I briefly studied at one such “convent” for Kindergarten (known as KG1 and KG2, because it spans two years) before my family moved overseas.

I tell people in the US I used to be in a convent, and they look me up and down and then make an excuse to flee the scene...

 

[Robert]

It’s interesting to see the murals in the Falls Road - some Republicans identify with Che Guevara, Yasser Arafat, Marcus Garvey, Steve Biko.

 

[Junaids]

the germans always saw both halfs of the country as one, which pbly had a lot to do with the fact that they were split after the loss of a war, not from demographic or political reasons.

this is a great video on the general subject and the influence of helmut kohl on german reunification. germany paid a price for the reunification tho, giving up claims to what had historically formed nearly a quarter of its territory.

Germany still isn't reunified.

One of Stalin's great successes was to get the west to call East Germany "East Germany".

It was nothing of the sort. It was Central Germany.

East Germany remains lost.

The great port of Danzig, 99% ethnically German, has been ethnically cleansed and is now Polish Gdansk.

The capital of East Prussia, Koenigsburg, was 99% ethnic German, was ethnically cleansed and is now Russian Kaliningrad.

The future of the great eastern port of Memel was contentious after World War 1. The population was 68% ethnic German and 30% Lithuanian. Again, it has been ethnically cleansed and is now Klaipeda in Lithuania.

All this, of course, is ironic on a Pakistani forum. My British birth certificate from 1969 says that my father was born in Pakistan. He was actually born in Dacca, British India, but by 1969 Dacca was the second city of Pakistan.

There was recently a lovely but comical cricket thread about Pakistan being represented by Christians and Hindus long ago.

The thing is, in 1969 Urdu was only the second language of Pakistan - the most spoken language was Bengali. My dad grew up in Bangla Bazaar which was a Hindu suburb of the second city of Pakistan.

We develop fixed ideas of Scotland being immutably part of the UK or Pakistan having a non-Bengali identity.

But all these things are just phases. People in Lahore and Karachi couldn't accept being ruled by a Bengali majority - many of them Hindus - and so Pakistan lost the majority of its population. And now Bangladesh sits higher than Pakistan on the Human Development Index league table, with Bangladesh advancing at more than double the rate of Pakistan, and the gap getting wider and wider every year.

West Pakistan's superiority complex towards East Pakistan was very similar to England's sneering sense of superiority over Scotland. And there is only one way that this is going to end.....

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Germany still isn't reunified.

One of Stalin's great successes was to get the west to call East Germany "East Germany".

It was nothing of the sort. It was Central Germany.

East Germany remains lost.

The great port of Danzig, 99% ethnically German, has been ethnically cleansed and is now Polish Gdansk.

The capital of East Prussia, Koenigsburg, was 99% ethnic German, was ethnically cleansed and is now Russian Kaliningrad.

The future of the great eastern port of Memel was contentious after World War 1. The population was 68% ethnic German and 30% Lithuanian. Again, it has been ethnically cleansed and is now Klaipeda in Lithuania.

All this, of course, is ironic on a Pakistani forum. My British birth certificate from 1969 says that my father was born in Pakistan. He was actually born in Dacca, British India, but by 1969 Dacca was the second city of Pakistan.

There was recently a lovely but comical cricket thread about Pakistan being represented by Christians and Hindus long ago.

The thing is, in 1969 Urdu was only the second language of Pakistan - the most spoken language was Bengali. My dad grew up in Bangla Bazaar which was a Hindu suburb of the second city of Pakistan.

We develop fixed ideas of Scotland being immutably part of the UK or Pakistan having a non-Bengali identity.

But all these things are just phases. People in Lahore and Karachi couldn't accept being ruled by a Bengali majority - many of them Hindus - and so Pakistan lost the majority of its population. And now Bangladesh sits higher than Pakistan on the Human Development Index league table, with Bangladesh advancing at more than double the rate of Pakistan, and the gap getting wider and wider every year.

West Pakistan's superiority complex towards East Pakistan was very similar to England's sneering sense of superiority over Scotland. And there is only one way that this is going to end.....

I don't think the comparisons with Bangladesh are accurate for a couple of reasons. Scotland and England aren't separated, they are basically the same island, and culturally fairly similar as well. East Pakistan was on the other side of India, they spoke a totally different language to West Pakistan, and in truth the idea of having two separate countries under one flag with a hostile India sat bang between them was preposterous to begin with.

Scots speak English, they look the same, dress the same, only difference is their somewhat spikey attitude, but even that doesn't usually translate into votes for independence.

Och aye the noo? More like och aye the nah mate.

 

[Robert]

I don't think the comparisons with Bangladesh are accurate for a couple of reasons. Scotland and England aren't separated, they are basically the same island, and culturally fairly similar as well. East Pakistan was on the other side of India, they spoke a totally different language to West Pakistan, and in truth the idea of having two separate countries under one flag with a hostile India sat bang between them was preposterous to begin with.

Scots speak English, they look the same, dress the same, only difference is their somewhat spikey attitude, but even that doesn't usually translate into votes for independence.

Och aye the noo? More like och aye the nah mate.

Different religion, different legal system, more left-leaning, different perception of history.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Different religion, different legal system, more left-leaning, different perception of history.

Is religion really a factor these days? UK has accommodated their different legal system, left-leaning and different perception of history, none of those were enough to convince Scots to devolve previously so I don't think they are decisive factors. Brexit is the deal breaker, and that's the only factor which I think might swing it for a separation this time round.

 

[Robert]

Is religion really a factor these days? UK has accommodated their different legal system, left-leaning and different perception of history, none of those were enough to convince Scots to devolve previously so I don't think they are decisive factors. Brexit is the deal breaker, and that's the only factor which I think might swing it for a separation this time round.

Well, I think they are tired of a Government with almost no representation in their own land. But yeah, Brexit will clinch it,

 

[ElRaja]

Germany still isn't reunified.

One of Stalin's great successes was to get the west to call East Germany "East Germany".

It was nothing of the sort. It was Central Germany.

East Germany remains lost.

The great port of Danzig, 99% ethnically German, has been ethnically cleansed and is now Polish Gdansk.

The capital of East Prussia, Koenigsburg, was 99% ethnic German, was ethnically cleansed and is now Russian Kaliningrad.

The future of the great eastern port of Memel was contentious after World War 1. The population was 68% ethnic German and 30% Lithuanian. Again, it has been ethnically cleansed and is now Klaipeda in Lithuania.

thanks for this, i had an idea that prussia (especially the metropolitan areas) was a significantly German region, but didn't have the exact figures to back it up for [MENTION=22846]Nostalgic[/MENTION]

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Germany still isn't reunified.


.....

Are you a chowdry?

 

[Nostalgic]

thanks for this, i had an idea that prussia (especially the metropolitan areas) was a significantly German region, but didn't have the exact figures to back it up for [MENTION=22846]Nostalgic[/MENTION]

I’ve been looking too, but haven’t found exact figures. It’s complicated by what one means by Prussia: the historical region, the Duchy, the Empire, the Empire after integration with the German Empire, and how regions included in the latter two definitions weren’t restricted to the historical region of Prussia but also included those now in Germany proper with heavy German majorities.

 

[Nostalgic]

As if on cue, Netflix recommends I watch “A Perfect Crime,” a docuseries about the murder of an economist working on integrating the erstwhile GDR economy into the reunified German one. How coincidental. Oh well, who am I to turn it down?

 

[TSA321]

It surprises me a little bit how little British people care about the prospect their country splitting up.

 

[ElRaja]

As if on cue, Netflix recommends I watch “A Perfect Crime,” a docuseries about the murder of an economist working on integrating the erstwhile GDR economy into the reunified German one. How coincidental. Oh well, who am I to turn it down?

let me know if its worth a watch

 

[ElRaja]

It surprises me a little bit how little British people care about the prospect their country splitting up.

its not a lack of care, its more that if a majority of any of the nations wants to split, there is very little unionists can do about it.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

its not a lack of care, its more that if a majority of any of the nations wants to split, there is very little unionists can do about it.

I feel its also because as a Union its incredibly leaned in favour of England. Being realistic when you hear of the UK nobody thinks of Scotland, Wales, NI, Sturgeon etc, its all Boris, England, english culture etc.

Would many English people really care? What would actually change in England? Ruling party remains the same, Government structure remains the same, same PM etc.

The Union is really in many ways just England and some minor members. England being such a dominant force within it, likely means a lot dont care because not a whole lot would change from their view no?

 

[ElRaja]

I feel its also because as a Union its incredibly leaned in favour of England. Being realistic when you hear of the UK nobody thinks of Scotland, Wales, NI, Sturgeon etc, its all Boris, England, english culture etc.

Would many English people really care? What would actually change in England? Ruling party remains the same, Government structure remains the same, same PM etc.

The Union is really in many ways just England and some minor members. England being such a dominant force within it, likely means a lot dont care because not a whole lot would change from their view no?

that will always be the case in a country where 90% of the population is one unit, arguably it would make more sense to devolve the nations further, make it more equitable and more balanced within the UK but i guess that a conversation for another time.

i dont know if many english people would care, but when im abroad and someone asks me where im from i instinctively say UK, i identified with being a Londoner, then British. whether right or wrong, i always identified english as being an ethnic descriptor.

maybe cos i saw this is england when i was really young and it had a lasting impact on me, lol. i dont know the right answer tbh.

 

[Nostalgic]

let me know if its worth a watch

I started it, watching half of the first episode. I was hoping there would be plenty of footage from around 1989-1990, and there is some, but it’s mostly interviews from more recent times. Nevertheless, I will slog through it.

 

[Nostalgic]

I feel its also because as a Union its incredibly leaned in favour of England. Being realistic when you hear of the UK nobody thinks of Scotland, Wales, NI, Sturgeon etc, its all Boris, England, english culture etc.

Would many English people really care? What would actually change in England? Ruling party remains the same, Government structure remains the same, same PM etc.

The Union is really in many ways just England and some minor members. England being such a dominant force within it, likely means a lot dont care because not a whole lot would change from their view no?

that will always be the case in a country where 90% of the population is one unit, arguably it would make more sense to devolve the nations further, make it more equitable and more balanced within the UK but i guess that a conversation for another time.

i dont know if many english people would care, but when im abroad and someone asks me where im from i instinctively say UK, i identified with being a Londoner, then British. whether right or wrong, i always identified english as being an ethnic descriptor.

maybe cos i saw this is england when i was really young and it had a lasting impact on me, lol. i dont know the right answer tbh.

I’m wondering what the impact of a split would be on the electoral map. Correct me if I’m wrong (again), but Labour used to win a fair number of seats in Scotland, but with the emergence of the SNP there, the Tories now appear to enjoy quite the advantage in England. A split would hurt Labour more than the Tories, would it not?

If so, I wonder if this colors their supporters’ respective views on a potential split at all.

 

[Nostalgic]

Two thoughtful replies.

[MENTION=22846]Nostalgic[/MENTION] - the Republic abandoned its historic constitutional claim to the Six Counties at the Good Friday Agreement in 1999.

Though the Celtic Tiger was seriously wounded In the 2008 crash, its economy is back on track and growing the fastest of any EU state.
While their politics tends to be classic liberal or centre-right, they are in some ways more socially liberal than the UK. They perform well in terms of press freedom. Citizens don’t require a diagnosis of gender dysphoria to register as TG as in the UK - they just fill out a government form.

The more I learn about this nation, the more I am impressed.

Going back to this earlier post and how progressive the Republic of Ireland is today, it sounds like it has been quite a journey for them in this regard. One comes across news reports and whatnot about how powerful the Catholic Church was at one stage. It would be interesting to hear from Donal on how this occurred.

Another fascinating angle could be a discussion on the relationship between the Catholic establishment and Republicanism. While Protestant nationalists weren’t unknown (Yeats being a famous one), we do know that most were/are Catholic (at least nominally). Was this fact celebrated, at least as a cultural marker of the nationalist cause? Or were/are they distrustful of the Catholic establishment? What role, if any, did the Vatican itself have to play in all this, considering that they are a state as well as a church?

So many questions, so little time!

 

[ElRaja]

I’m wondering what the impact of a split would be on the electoral map. Correct me if I’m wrong (again), but Labour used to win a fair number of seats in Scotland, but with the emergence of the SNP there, the Tories now appear to enjoy quite the advantage in England. A split would hurt Labour more than the Tories, would it not?

If so, I wonder if this colors their supporters’ respective views on a potential split at all.

your right, labour would be hardest hit of the mainstream parties by a scexit, however given the general sentiment towards the tory party and bojo, it would be a coin toss who would win in england if election were on the horizon.

 

[Markhor]

I’m wondering what the impact of a split would be on the electoral map. Correct me if I’m wrong (again), but Labour used to win a fair number of seats in Scotland, but with the emergence of the SNP there, the Tories now appear to enjoy quite the advantage in England. A split would hurt Labour more than the Tories, would it not?

If so, I wonder if this colors their supporters’ respective views on a potential split at all.

Scotland has seen a revival of the Conservative Party thanks to political polarisation since the 2014 referendum between pro and anti-unionists.

The memories of Thatcher and the Poll Tax have faded as the Scottish Conservatives were led ably by Ruth Davidson for several years. Theresa May had Davidson to thank in 2017 as without her batch of Scottish Conservative MPs, May wouldn't have had the numbers to form a Government.

Meanwhile, lacking a leader in the mould of Davidson or SNP's Nicola Sturgeon, and prevaricating on the major national issue of the day (independence), as their English compatriots did over Brexit in England, along with infighting that the British Left have perfected into an art form, has meant Scottish Labour has been wiped out.

The days of giant Scottish Labour figures like John Smith, Gordon Brown and Donald Dewar who could appeal to folks outside the Labour tribe are long gone with 9 Scottish Labour leaders in the last 20 years - each one more inadequate than the last. Currently, UK Labour's immediate priority appears not to rebuild the Scottish Party, but to regain votes in their Northern English heartlands known as the Red Wall.

 

[Nostalgic]

your right, labour would be hardest hit of the mainstream parties by a scexit, however given the general sentiment towards the tory party and bojo, it would be a coin toss who would win in england if election were on the horizon.

Scotland has seen a revival of the Conservative Party thanks to political polarisation since the 2014 referendum between pro and anti-unionists.

The memories of Thatcher and the Poll Tax have faded as the Scottish Conservatives were led ably by Ruth Davidson for several years. Theresa May had Davidson to thank in 2017 as without her batch of Scottish Conservative MPs, May wouldn't have had the numbers to form a Government.

Meanwhile, lacking a leader in the mould of Davidson or SNP's Nicola Sturgeon, and prevaricating on the major national issue of the day (independence), as their English compatriots did over Brexit in England, along with infighting that the British Left have perfected into an art form, has meant Scottish Labour has been wiped out.

The days of giant Scottish Labour figures like John Smith, Gordon Brown and Donald Dewar who could appeal to folks outside the Labour tribe are long gone with 9 Scottish Labour leaders in the last 20 years - each one more inadequate than the last. Currently, UK Labour's immediate priority appears not to rebuild the Scottish Party, but to regain votes in their Northern English heartlands known as the Red Wall.

Thanks. The “Red Wall” may be lost to Labour for a while, given how the working class in the West has gone full-on right-wing in recent times.

It’s fascinating that the UK had three PMs in succession with Scottish connections as recently as a few years ago: Blair and Brown were Scots, and then Cameron, although elected from England, had Scot heritage.

 

[Robert]

It surprises me a little bit how little British people care about the prospect their country splitting up.

I care very much. But the Referendum of 2016 was so fundamental, so divisive, that the split is inevitable. Beware the law of unforeseen consequences....

 

[Kroll]

I care very much. But the Referendum of 2016 was so fundamental, so divisive, that the split is inevitable. Beware the law of unforeseen consequences....

Don't worry, SNP won't be able to get another mandate for referendum from Westminster so no split in our lifetime will happen.

 

[TSA321]

Thanks. The “Red Wall” may be lost to Labour for a while, given how the working class in the West has gone full-on right-wing in recent times.

Don't think so...the latest polling has the 'Red Wall' pretty much won back for Labour.

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Opinium - 2020-09-25<br>LAB: 42% (+9)<br>CON: 39% (-6)<br>SNP: 6% (+2)<br>LDEM: 5% (-7)<br>GRN: 4% (+1)<br>PC: 1% (+11)<br><br>Flavible Projection<br>LAB: 293 (+90)<br>CON: 270 (-95)<br>SNP: 58 (+10)<br>LDEM: 5 (-6)<br>PC: 4 (-)<br>GRN: 1 (-)<br>OTH: 1 (+1)<br><br>*Changes with GE<br> <a href="https://t.co/xLNrUfOxYP">https://t.co/xLNrUfOxYP</a></p>— Flavible Politics (@flaviblePolitic) <a href="https://twitter.com/flaviblePolitic/status/1309934631647678464?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 26, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[Markhor]

Thanks. The “Red Wall” may be lost to Labour for a while, given how the working class in the West has gone full-on right-wing in recent times.

It’s fascinating that the UK had three PMs in succession with Scottish connections as recently as a few years ago: Blair and Brown were Scots, and then Cameron, although elected from England, had Scot heritage.

I wouldn't lose hope. I count at least 14 Red Wall seats that the Conservatives hold only by wafer thin margins: Heywood and Middleton, Blyth Valley, Don Valley, Leigh, Sedgefield, Wakefield, Bolton North East, Bury North, Bury South, Delyn, Gedling, High Peak, Kensington and Stoke-on-Trent Central.

10 of those seats are held by Tory majorities of less than 1,000. They're eminently winnable with sane leadership. Sadly, the Democratic Party and Labour Party in 2016 and 2019 learned you don't beat a divisive opponent by fielding an even more divisive candidate. Anyway that's a story for another day...

 

[ElRaja]

Thanks. The “Red Wall” may be lost to Labour for a while, given how the working class in the West has gone full-on right-wing in recent times.

It’s fascinating that the UK had three PMs in succession with Scottish connections as recently as a few years ago: Blair and Brown were Scots, and then Cameron, although elected from England, had Scot heritage.

i have no love for labour but there is no way the tories with bojo are holding on to power if the current sentiment holds or worsens by 2023, labour would be no better but they have the benefit of the doubt on their side now.

 

[TSA321]

In the projection I posted above, Boris Johnson loses his seat.

 

[Nostalgic]

I wouldn't lose hope. I count at least 14 Red Wall seats that the Conservatives hold only by wafer thin margins: Heywood and Middleton, Blyth Valley, Don Valley, Leigh, Sedgefield, Wakefield, Bolton North East, Bury North, Bury South, Delyn, Gedling, High Peak, Kensington and Stoke-on-Trent Central.

10 of those seats are held by Tory majorities of less than 1,000. They're eminently winnable with sane leadership. Sadly, the Democratic Party and Labour Party in 2016 and 2019 learned you don't beat a divisive opponent by fielding an even more divisive candidate. Anyway that's a story for another day...

i have no love for labour but there is no way the tories with bojo are holding on to power if the current sentiment holds or worsens by 2023, labour would be no better but they have the benefit of the doubt on their side now.

In the projection I posted above, Boris Johnson loses his seat.

Interesting. The only fly in the ointment is that one wouldn't put it past the Democrats and Labour to make a complete mess of the opportunities furnished by unpopular, divisive incumbents.

 

[msaaim89]

its not a lack of care, its more that if a majority of any of the nations wants to split, there is very little unionists can do about it.

I'm not too sure to be honest.

Majority of the people I am in contact with don't seem to care at all about separation or Brexit, generally tired of hearing about it.

Obviously it's not a wide consensus of the UK population, just thought I'd throw it in anyhow.

 

[ElRaja]

I'm not too sure to be honest.

Majority of the people I am in contact with don't seem to care at all about separation or Brexit, generally tired of hearing about it.

Obviously it's not a wide consensus of the UK population, just thought I'd throw it in anyhow.

fair enough, i was simply giving my own pov, but i get what u mean, ive seen it too. theres a large group of people who are indifferent

 

[James]

After a surge of wider interest in the British political sphere over the last 5 years — due to the likes of Boris, Brexit and Corbyn — the general public now seems to be returning to its past apathy and indifference towards politics, most evident during the quieter Blair years of 2000-2002.

Many British people just don’t know nor care what is actually going on most of the time; and as opposed to anticipating events, having their say and being directly plugged into the developing discourse, will often just find out about things on the news well after they have happened and/or been decided — and this would include news on the outcome of an important election, a momentous change in government, or even the permanent splitting up of nations.

Indeed I am afraid that many of these people (upon finding out about such things) would just shrug, say it’s not their problem and that they’d rather not be involved, and get on with their mundane day-to-day lives.

 

[KingKhanWC]

After a surge of wider interest in the British political sphere over the last 5 years — due to the likes of Boris, Brexit and Corbyn — the general public now seems to be returning to its past apathy and indifference towards politics, most evident during the quieter Blair years of 2000-2002.

Many British people just don’t know nor care what is actually going on most of the time; and as opposed to anticipating events, having their say and being directly plugged into the developing discourse, will often just find out about things on the news well after they have happened and/or been decided — and this would include news on the outcome of an important election, a momentous change in government, or even the permanent splitting up of nations.

Indeed I am afraid that many of these people (upon finding out about such things) would just shrug, say it’s not their problem and that they’d rather not be involved, and get on with their mundane day-to-day lives.

Politics is dead in the UK, democracy has pretty much failed. People have finally woken up to the realisation this party voting system is a fraud. There are two parties, it doesn't matter who you vote for , the policies are made for rich donors or based on what other world powers want. Turnout in the UK was around 30% , you will see this plummet to around 20% next election unless a new rare leader emerges but now with the likes of Starmer who is the new Blair is no different in reality to any Tory leader.

 

[Robert]

Politics is dead in the UK, democracy has pretty much failed. People have finally woken up to the realisation this party voting system is a fraud. There are two parties, it doesn't matter who you vote for , the policies are made for rich donors or based on what other world powers want. Turnout in the UK was around 30% , you will see this plummet to around 20% next election unless a new rare leader emerges but now with the likes of Starmer who is the new Blair is no different in reality to any Tory leader.

67% at the December 2019 GE in fact, so your nihilism is unfounded.

Labour policies don’t appear to have changed - the difference is that they have a competent top team - pragmatists with brains and skills - for the first time since 2015.

 

[KingKhanWC]

67% at the December 2019 GE in fact, so your nihilism is unfounded.

Labour policies don’t appear to have changed - the difference is that they have a competent top team - pragmatists with brains and skills - for the first time since 2015.

Ok it was higher than I thought but still lower than the previous election. Corbyn offered change. UK had a choice between a man who wants peace and society to live better or a puppet of elites, the idiots of this country chose an foolish old woman in May and now someone out of a circus in Boris. Now most know both parties are no longer different with Starmer, another Tony Blair.

Labour changed when Corbyn became leader and it's policies have changed again, since Corbyn went.


You carry on voting Robert, by the end of our time on this Earth, UK will be more of a dump than it is now. So good job spending thousands of hours of your live following this poltiical farce for nothing.

 

[SpiritOf1903]

Tory stronghold will remain. Underlying issues like nationalism's surged and Conservatives only party to vote for as they've taken the fringe vote.

 

[Robert]

Ok it was higher than I thought but still lower than the previous election. Corbyn offered change. UK had a choice between a man who wants peace and society to live better or a puppet of elites, the idiots of this country chose an foolish old woman in May and now someone out of a circus in Boris. Now most know both parties are no longer different with Starmer, another Tony Blair.

Labour changed when Corbyn became leader and it's policies have changed again, since Corbyn went.


You carry on voting Robert, by the end of our time on this Earth, UK will be more of a dump than it is now. So good job spending thousands of hours of your live following this poltiical farce for nothing.

Well, that demonstrated how little credibility Corbyn had. You can’t just call people who disagree with you idiots, that won’t persuade them. Though I would describe Corbynistas as painfully naive, almost children believing in Santa. He is a good constituency MP, nothing more. It would have been like putting some Sunday league amateur footie manager in charge of Liverpool FC.

Give me Blair any day. He won three elections, repaired the NHS and education, brokered peace in NI.

As for your last point. You can either carry on with your path of nihilism, or get involved and try to turn the wheel so that the nation heads in a better direction.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

Going back to this earlier post and how progressive the Republic of Ireland is today, it sounds like it has been quite a journey for them in this regard. One comes across news reports and whatnot about how powerful the Catholic Church was at one stage. It would be interesting to hear from Donal on how this occurred.

Another fascinating angle could be a discussion on the relationship between the Catholic establishment and Republicanism. While Protestant nationalists weren’t unknown (Yeats being a famous one), we do know that most were/are Catholic (at least nominally). Was this fact celebrated, at least as a cultural marker of the nationalist cause? Or were/are they distrustful of the Catholic establishment? What role, if any, did the Vatican itself have to play in all this, considering that they are a state as well as a church?

So many questions, so little time!

Its pretty incredible how bad life here was until the 80s. To put into perspective how rapid the transformation has been

- When we joined the EEC in 73 we were easily the poorest and underdeveloped nation. We received a lot of EU funding in the following decades and this played a pivotal role in helping revive the economy.

- Homosexuality was illegal until 1989

- Divorce was illegal until 1991. DIVORCE. It only passed by a razor thin 51/49 referendum result also to my knowledge. That is ludicrous really in the Western world but its a fact.

- Contraception was also banned until the 90s (not that it stopped everyone getting it). You hear stories of the Guards entering pubs at night, going to the bathrooms and smashing the condom machines to bits. I believe women had to get prescriptions for birth control pills lol, hardly described as senstivie and caring.

Women had it the worst. Look up Magdalene Laundries for the full lowdown of the horrors unwed mothers, charmfully described by the Church as "Fallen Women" had to endure. It was also not unheard of for unmarried mothers to be forced to give up their baby immediately from birth, in secret, to be sold off to foster parents in the States by the Church in secret, to spare the family the public shame of wedlock, which of cpurse the Church made a nice profit off of. Hundreds if not thousands of those cases. Those were probably the lucky ones, the ones secretly give to Church care often starved to death at the wicked treatment of the nuns, with a mass grave recently being uncovered in Tuam containing over 200 dead children, all died of either beatings or malnutrition.

That's not even going into the widespread child abuse that was rampant in schools ran by the so called Christian Brothers. One in particular in Letterfrack, the most isolated westerly village in the country, which had a fairly large school (no doubt chosen due to it being literal hours from any other settlement) was known as my old landlord described, for having priests who "walked around with belt buckles untied". Ireland was a cesspit up until the EEC Membership make absolutely no mistake about it.

It changed due to two things, economic boom and the opening of society. We were exposed to large amounts of American, British and European culture and that naturally causes young people to be curious, eventually see how crap things are at home and aim to change, but the economic boom was the big one. We peaked at the ideal moment, EU funding and market access allowed us to properly kick our economy into a high gear fit for a developed nation and we did so right as we had a huge generation of young men and women ripe to enter the workforce just as things ticked up. Ultimately society changed due to education, which exposed all of the Church's hypocrisy and the rotten society we lived in, and lead to the massive changes we see today (although far from perfect). I could go on and on about even stories in my family of how bad life was for most of the 20th century, but I shan't bore ye.

The Catholicism link to Republicanism was pretty widelt celebrated in the early days. We were seen as the poster child pf the Church in Western Europe for a long time and the Vatican held a lot of sway within Irish politics post independence. The first proper international recognition Ireland probably got post independence was a Papal Vidit which drew humungous crowds (1/3rd the entire country attended the Pope's mass in Phoenix Park in person).I wish we were distrustful to be honest, but the reality is many of our revolution leaders like De Valera in particular, fought one Empiure only to immediately surrendur the country to another in the form of the Church for several more decades.

To sum up how influential the Church was, one of our best early ministers was Minister for Health, I believe the name is Noel Browne, nor entirely sure. Anyway he had a TB vaccine (was a big killer in Ireland at the time) ready and wanted to make it mandatory for all mothers and children. The then Archbishop didn;t like this, pulled some strings and eventually caused the Health Minister to resign. They effectively called the shots.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noël_Browne

The Vatican didn't however play any role in independence, none that I'm aware of anyway. Either way they had Ireland in their pockeys, didn't make a tremendous difference nor did they really care so long as we stayed Catholic.

 

[Robert]

Jaw-dropping [MENTION=136108]Donal Cozzie[/MENTION].

 

[Donal Cozzie]

Jaw-dropping [MENTION=136108]Donal Cozzie[/MENTION].

I mean it's not like you couldn't live during those times but, yeah, it was quite bleak, hence the vast emigration, high infant mortality rate etc.

Thankfully unrecognisable from that today.

 

[Robert]

I mean it's not like you couldn't live during those times but, yeah, it was quite bleak, hence the vast emigration, high infant mortality rate etc.

Thankfully unrecognisable from that today.

I knew about the Celtic Tiger, but the social aspects you describe seem out of the nineteenth century.