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Is this New Zealand team the weakest #1 team in the history of Test cricket?

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Nikhil_cric

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This team cant even beat Bangladesh at home unless conditions suit them . They are an excellent team in swinging/seaming conditions but are absolutely terrible on flat/bouncy/spinning wickets.
 
Is New Zealand the worst team to be no.1 in test ranking?

We know how lucky NZ have been lucky to win the WTC despite their lack of away series wins, but them losing to Bangladesh at home is the most shameful thing imaginable.

Have you ever seen a no.1 test side as bad as NZ? I don't know where to rank them, but NZ being better than the likes of India has to be the biggest joke in the world. Not sure how ICC decided the rankings, but whatever.
 
This is a disrespectful mindset towards BD.

Watch out for crying Indians / Pakistanis who would be over the moon if it were their team winning it in a similar manner in NZ :shakib
 
No, NZ are generally a v good team at home, and decent away, and NZ made it count in the wtc final. bringing your A game in a one off game is a skill in itself.

Bangladesh have played really well, this isnt a win off one players freak performance, a lot of players contributed to this win.
 
They missed Williamson & Taylor

But credit to the Tigers they were awesome. No superstars like Tamim or Shakib to cause issues in the camp
 
ElRaja said:
No, NZ are generally a v good team at home, and decent away, and NZ made it count in the wtc final. bringing your A game in a one off game is a skill in itself.
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Agree with other points except bold.

Imagine if NZ was playing Aus in Aus in the final or India in India. The game would have been over before starting. NZ had conditions that suited them. Sure, they played well to win the final, but it's not just about them bringing their A-game. It was the most helpful condition they could find outside of NZ.

NZ is still a good team. BD simply played a high standard for the entire test here.
 
They are no.1 team? No. That was last cycle. India is ranked no.1 with 124 points. NZ 121 points. No.1 ranking is different from test championship.
 
NZ was number 1 for a few months. NZ was not ranked 1 before this match.
 
They are not #1.

However, NZ should be worried that they need a green track to win even against BD.
 
Taylor's retirement cannot come quickly enough for NZ. He has been a total loser living on past reputation for the last number of years. He made 40 today in which he had three lives and looked like a tailender throughout. He should have been dropped a long time ago.

NZ are allowed to have a bad game now and then but you would expect them, even on a bad day in their own back yard, to beat Bangladesh. Yet this wasn't just a beating by the tourists, it was a hammering. The match was not even close. But credit has to go to Bangladesh. They played like demons - they just could not do anything wrong and anything wrong they did ended up having no effect at all.
 
They are still no.2 and reigning WTC champion. Only player who missed this test was Williamson. But Bangladesh also missing Shakib and Tamim, both of whom average near 40 in tests with the bat.

This is why I could never take NZ WTC win seriously
 
Bangladesh would evicerate India in their backyard to.

The Inds have not recovered from 152-0 yet.

I wouldn’t take too much away from BD.
 
Nikhil_cric said:
I'm talking about the period when they were the #1 side in the world I.e. until just before their tour of India.
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It is not hard to see why NZ made it to rank 1.

Last 4 years not including the current series,

At home: played 8 test series Hosted Pak, WI, India, Eng, SL and BD - won 8 test series [ Obvious missing teams are Aus and SA who were most likely to beat NZ in NZ]

Outside of home: played only 4 test series - Won grand total of one test series. Lost in Aus. Lost in Ind. Didn't win in SL. Won in Eng.

That's the reason I never rated NZ that high. They still played well to win those home series, but the entire rank was due to playing twice the number of test series at home without playing Aus and SA in that duration.

Rank can be chalked up to schedule. It is much harder to maintain rank 1 than simply claim it due to schedule. If you maintain it for a couple of years then it undoubtedly means that you are the number one team.

I never saw NZ as number 1 team despite being ranked 1.
 
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Buffet said:
It is not hard to see why NZ made it to rank 1.

Last 4 years not including the current series,

At home: played 8 test series Hosted Pak, WI, India, Eng, SL and BD - won 8 test series [ Obvious missing teams are Aus and SA who were most likely to beat NZ in NZ]

Outside of home: played only 4 test series - Won grand total of one test series. Lost in Aus. Lost in Ind. Didn't win in SL. Won in Eng.

That's the reason I never rated NZ that high. They still played well to win those home series, but the entire rank was due to playing twice the number of test series at home without playing Aus and SA in that duration.

Rank can be chalked up to schedule. It is much harder to maintain rank 1 than simply claim it due to schedule. If you maintain it for a couple of years then it undoubtedly means that you are the number one team.

I never saw NZ as number 1 team despite being ranked 1.
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Which makes their WTC win even a bigger joke. I would a SENA team beating India in India or a subcontinent team beating a SENA team in a series of over WTC anyway. Beating a team in a single test at a neutral venue is the least impressive thing in cricket.
 
Joseph Gomes said:
Which makes their WTC win even a bigger joke. I would a SENA team beating India in India or a subcontinent team beating a SENA team in a series of over WTC anyway. Beating a team in a single test at a neutral venue is the least impressive thing in cricket.
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Joseph Gomes said:
Which makes their WTC win even a bigger joke. I would a SENA team beating India in India or a subcontinent team beating a SENA team in a series of over WTC anyway. Beating a team in a single test at a neutral venue is the least impressive thing in cricket.
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WTC win by NZ was not a joke for me, they played well to win.

WTC format itself is a joke format. The format is a joke because you can cherry-pick 6 teams. You can play 2 tests and you get the same points for beating WI at home vs beating Aus/Ind away. Does not make any sense. And to end it all, the final is just one test in a random country. It should be 3 tests in 3 different conditions, then we will be talking real championship. Imagine if NZ had to face Aus in Aus or India in India. It won't be a fair condition for NZ. Fair would be to have 3 finals in 3 different conditions.

Pinnacle for me to performance of away series against top teams. Then how well you do at home. Combining both, you see the ranking trend over a long period and that's mostly accurate.

WI won home and away - Occupied rank 1 for a long time
Aus won home and away - Occupied rank 1 for a long time
Ind won home and away - Occupied rank 1 for some period
SA won home and away - Occupied rank 1 for a long time.
Eng won home and away - Occupied rank 1 for some period.
Ind won home and away - Occupied rank 1 for a long time.

You simply can't occupy rank 1 for a long time without winning home and away enough. Getting there for 2 months or winning WTC due to scheduling is not a substitute. WTC has done one good thing though with so many bad points I highlighted. It made sure that top teams try to win all tests. I like that over boring draws.
 
Joseph Gomes said:
<b>Which makes their WTC win even a bigger joke.</b> I would a SENA team beating India in India or a subcontinent team beating a SENA team in a series of over WTC anyway. Beating a team in a single test at a neutral venue is the least impressive thing in cricket.
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I would not call a WC a joke, they deserved it. They beat England and India in England, and would probably have beaten most other countries in England other than Australia and maybe South Africa.

Really bad team selection by Shastri and Kohli (for example Ashwin and Jadeja rather than Bhuvi and Thakur) had a role to play in India's defeat but that is India's own stupidity and you can't take anything away from NZ.
 
Buffet said:
WTC win by NZ was not a joke for me, they played well to win.

WTC format itself is a joke format. The format is a joke because you can cherry-pick 6 teams. You can play 2 tests and you get the same points for beating WI at home vs beating Aus/Ind away. Does not make any sense. And to end it all, the final is just one test in a random country. It should be 3 tests in 3 different conditions, then we will be talking real championship. Imagine if NZ had to face Aus in Aus or India in India. It won't be a fair condition for NZ. Fair would be to have 3 finals in 3 different conditions.

Pinnacle for me to performance of away series against top teams. Then how well you do at home. Combining both, you see the ranking trend over a long period and that's mostly accurate.

WI won home and away - Occupied rank 1 for a long time
Aus won home and away - Occupied rank 1 for a long time
Ind won home and away - Occupied rank 1 for some period
SA won home and away - Occupied rank 1 for a long time.
Eng won home and away - Occupied rank 1 for some period.
Ind won home and away - Occupied rank 1 for a long time.

You simply can't occupy rank 1 for a long time without winning home and away enough. Getting there for 2 months or winning WTC due to scheduling is not a substitute. WTC has done one good thing though with so many bad points I highlighted. It made sure that top teams try to win all tests. I like that over boring draws.
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This. NZ's WCT win was not a joke. The WCT format is however a joke.
 
How can NZ be the weakest number 1 team of all-time?

They dethroned India, and in 5 Tests in 2020 and 2021 against India (2 at home, 1 neutral venue, 2 in India) the overall record reads:

New Zealand 3
India 1
Drawn 1

So it goes without saying that NZ can't be the weakest ever Number 1 team, because India were much, much worse.
 
No need to over react. Australia lost to Bangladesh in 2005
 
I wouldn't call them weakest #1. They just had a bad game. I expect them to bounce back.
 
Junaids said:
How can NZ be the weakest number 1 team of all-time?

They dethroned India, and in 5 Tests in 2020 and 2021 against India (2 at home, 1 neutral venue, 2 in India) the overall record reads:

New Zealand 3
India 1
Drawn 1

So it goes without saying that NZ can't be the weakest ever Number 1 team, because India were much, much worse.
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Much much worse no 1 team held on no.1 spot 3-5 years but superior no.1 team dethroned with in 2 months 😬😬
 
Where is the 'Kiwi' Aman?

Bangladesh looses at home to Afghanistan for fun and here Test Champions lost to Bangladesh :asif That's why I don't watch Test cricket, T20 and IPL is the real deal 🤝
 
Junaids said:
How can NZ be the weakest number 1 team of all-time?

They dethroned India, and in 5 Tests in 2020 and 2021 against India (2 at home, 1 neutral venue, 2 in India) the overall record reads:

New Zealand 3
India 1
Drawn 1

So it goes without saying that NZ can't be the weakest ever Number 1 team, because India were much, much worse.
Click to expand...

Absurd! Strength of a team is not only judged by how they did against India and NZ. What about the record of these 2 teams against, say Australia during 2020 and 2021?

To show India in a bad light, you are cherry picking as is your wont.
 
I agree - NZ can only win on swinging wickets & that has been its weakest point.
 
Nikhil_cric said:
This team cant even beat Bangladesh at home unless conditions suit them . They are an excellent team in swinging/seaming conditions but are absolutely terrible on flat/bouncy/spinning wickets.
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Most of their home wickets are flat these days.

They could be improved by a couple of good spinners.
 
Fact:-

The NZ team under Kane Williamson is a better team than Indian team under Virat Kohli.

The 2020 Australia win didn't had Virat Kohli and this NZ loss didn't had Kane Williamson. Neither did the NZ team that run away with security threats had Kane Williamson.

But whenever Kane Williamson is there, he has got the better of Kohli's India.
 
Majestic said:
Fact:-

The NZ team under Kane Williamson is a better team than Indian team under Virat Kohli.

The 2020 Australia win didn't had Virat Kohli and this NZ loss didn't had Kane Williamson. Neither did the NZ team that run away with security threats had Kane Williamson.

But whenever Kane Williamson is there, he has got the better of Kohli's India.
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Agree. In other words, India’s wins without their first choice captain playing don’t count.
 
Pakistan team of 2016 was the weakest ever no. 1 ranked team. They were accidental as well as the most undeserving top ranked team of all times.
 
Majestic said:
Fact:-

The NZ team under Kane Williamson is a better team than Indian team under Virat Kohli.

But whenever Kane Williamson is there, he has got the better of Kohli's India.
Click to expand...

If you have any knowledge of NZ cricket, you would know that when NZ visits India it almost always loses, Williamson or not. The last 3 times they have visited India, they have visited India they have lost 6 Tests, drawn 1 (last wicket stand bailed them out) and won 0.

Williamson and Kohli were the captains when NZ visited India in 2016. NZ lost the 3 Tests series 3-0. How does that jibe with "whenever Kane Williamson is there, he has got the better of Kohli's India"???

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/team/series_results.html?class=1;id=6;type=team

You have to go back all the way to 1988/89 for a NZ Test victory in India.
 
Majestic said:
Fact:-

The NZ team under Kane Williamson is a better team than Indian team under Virat Kohli.

The 2020 Australia win didn't had Virat Kohli and this NZ loss didn't had Kane Williamson. Neither did the NZ team that run away with security threats had Kane Williamson.

But whenever Kane Williamson is there, he has got the better of Kohli's India.
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Kohli is probably the second best Test captain after Ponting. He won a series in Oz, Eng and now will win it in Saf which no subcontinent captain achieved. Won't be surprised if he becomes the Prime Minister of India :Imran
 
Robert said:
Most of their home wickets are flat these days.

They could be improved by a couple of good spinners.
Click to expand...

The wickets were definitely not flat when India toured. They manipulate their wickets based on the opposition just like everyone else.
 
Only true no. 1 test team is India over last few years. Some team occupying no.1 rank for a few months doesn't matter much.
 
Rachin Ravindra? Why is he getting games to play while Ajaz Patel and Santner sits out? nothing special with the ball or bat.

His FC record is below average as well. Wasting a spot for NZ.
 
Let's show some respect to the kiwis. A country with a population of 5 million people who continue to punch above their weight.
2015 world cup finalists
2019world cup finalists
2021 world test champions
2021 t20 finalists.
 
Let us also praise Bangladesh for overcoming the test champions.
 
Nikhil_cric said:
The wickets were definitely not flat when India toured. They manipulate their wickets based on the opposition just like everyone else.
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They were flatties on the last England tour. I thought the climate had changed so they don’t get green seamers any more?
 
NZ may not be a great team but they are certainly a very good side.
1 loss against BD doesn't make them poor overnight.

Credit should be given to BD for achieving something that even the likes of India/Pak/Eng have failed to do.
 
Really? What stopped India from winning against this NZ team in NZ then?

Irrespective of the outcome of this series, this is a great win from Bangladesh. This is even bigger than India's win against Australia in Brisbane test. Unfortunately this win won't be aplauded as much as India's win against Australia due to obvious reasons.

Also if India can beat New Zealand in Australia then using the same logic Bangladesh can also beat India in New Zealand now. :inti
 
Napa said:
Absurd! Strength of a team is not only judged by how they did against India and NZ. What about the record of these 2 teams against, say Australia during 2020 and 2021?

To show India in a bad light, you are cherry picking as is your wont.
Click to expand...

No I'm not. I'm pointing out that NZ keeps beating India, so they are clearly better than them.
 
Junaids said:
No I'm not. I'm pointing out that NZ keeps beating India, so they are clearly better than them.
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They play us in seaming/swinging conditions. They cant beat us in any other conditions. So that doesnt really prove anything.
 
Bhaag Viru Bhaag said:
Really? What stopped India from winning against this NZ team in NZ then?

Irrespective of the outcome of this series, this is a great win from Bangladesh. This is even bigger than India's win against Australia in Brisbane test. Unfortunately this win won't be aplauded as much as India's win against Australia due to obvious reasons.

Also if India can beat New Zealand in Australia then using the same logic Bangladesh can also beat India in New Zealand now. :inti
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NZ dont have a great home record either. They lost to the 2 sides that that can compete well in these conditions- SA and OZ. And they were beaten like minnows the last time they toured OZ, India, SA etc.
 
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Nikhil_cric said:
MZ do t have a great home record either. They lost to the 2 sides that that can compete well in these conditions- SA and OZ. And they beaten like minnows the last time they toured OZ, India, SA etc.
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They drew a test in India, won in UAE, Eng and did well in SL too.

Not a great team but certainly not as bad as some of you might want others to believe.
 
Indian fans seem to have a bit of a vendetta against NZ after the WTC humiliation.

Instead of praising Bangladesh there is a lot of negativity shown towards NZ.

NZ deserve to be Number 1 on the back of some tremendous performance and by winning the final in style.

They don't have the depth to sustain a top ranking over an extended period of time and thats mainly due to a lack of bench strength compared to Aus & India and the fact that imo their domestic system will struggle to consistently produce players of top tier calibre.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
Indian fans seem to have a bit of a vendetta against NZ after the WTC humiliation.

Instead of praising Bangladesh there is a lot of negativity shown towards NZ.

NZ deserve to be Number 1 on the back of some tremendous performance and by winning the final in style.

They don't have the depth to sustain a top ranking over an extended period of time and thats mainly due to a lack of bench strength compared to Aus & India and the fact that imo their domestic system will struggle to consistently produce players of top tier calibre.
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It is like hitting two birds with one stone. Humiliating NZ on one hand and also undermining Bangladesh's win against WTC winner NZ. :inti
 
Junaids said:
No I'm not. I'm pointing out that NZ keeps beating India, so they are clearly better than them.
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Only in your imagination does "NZ keeps beating India". They beat India when conditions suit them, they lose to India when they don't. In their recent tour of India they did manage to draw one match as you breathlessly pointed out after scoring 62 in the first innings... thanks to bad light etc. resulting in less than 200 overs of play. They somehow survive 85 overs while losing 19 wickets :))

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series...s-new-zealand-2nd-test-1278675/full-scorecard
 
Indians are yet to recover from 152-0 and the WTC loss, can’t possibly give credit to BD either, what a sore bunch of cry babies. I always knew they had the lack of size syndrome.
 
Junaids said:
No I'm not. I'm pointing out that NZ keeps beating India, so they are clearly better than them.
Click to expand...

Australia beat NZ so I guess they're the best. But then again Australia lost to India, so not sure where we stand now
 
Junaids said:
No I'm not. I'm pointing out that NZ keeps beating India, so they are clearly better than them.
Click to expand...

Between 2001 and 2004 India kept beating Australia in India and didnt lose to Australia in Australia. Then, as per your logic, India in 2001-2004 was a better test team than Australia.
 
Nikhil_cric said:
Climate has never stopped teams from making the pitches that suit them.
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Course it does. You can’t easily make green wickets in England in August (assuming sunshine) or dustbowls in May.

The Australian wickets have been greener on test match day one this series,but there has been much rain about this year.
 
Buffet said:
WTC win by NZ was not a joke for me, they played well to win.

WTC format itself is a joke format. The format is a joke because you can cherry-pick 6 teams. You can play 2 tests and you get the same points for beating WI at home vs beating Aus/Ind away. Does not make any sense. And to end it all, the final is just one test in a random country. It should be 3 tests in 3 different conditions, then we will be talking real championship. Imagine if NZ had to face Aus in Aus or India in India. It won't be a fair condition for NZ. Fair would be to have 3 finals in 3 different conditions.

Pinnacle for me to performance of away series against top teams. Then how well you do at home. Combining both, you see the ranking trend over a long period and that's mostly accurate.

WI won home and away - Occupied rank 1 for a long time
Aus won home and away - Occupied rank 1 for a long time
Ind won home and away - Occupied rank 1 for some period
SA won home and away - Occupied rank 1 for a long time.
Eng won home and away - Occupied rank 1 for some period.
Ind won home and away - Occupied rank 1 for a long time.

You simply can't occupy rank 1 for a long time without winning home and away enough. Getting there for 2 months or winning WTC due to scheduling is not a substitute. WTC has done one good thing though with so many bad points I highlighted. It made sure that top teams try to win all tests. I like that over boring draws.
Click to expand...

Partly agree. The issue with a best of 3 final is there's simply no space in a very compressed international calendar for it. Anyway, if a team is truly the best - surely they should be capable of winning a one-off Test ?

I also don't mind teams gaining the same points regardless of opponent strength - you don't get extra in a World Cup or Champions Trophy for beating a higher ranked side. Plus those who play a higher % of Tests against bigger teams (the Big 3) would be disproportionately favoured. Besides we already have the ICC Rankings which reflect opposition strength.

Where I agree is there should be a proper home and away system where each team plays everyone.

But we know why this compromise system exists where teams only play 6 series - the Indian Govt will not sanction a Test series with Pakistan.
 
Markhor said:
Partly agree. The issue with a best of 3 final is there's simply no space in a very compressed international calendar for it. Anyway, if a team is truly the best - surely they should be capable of winning a one-off Test ?

I also don't mind teams gaining the same points regardless of opponent strength - you don't get extra in a World Cup or Champions Trophy for beating a higher ranked side. Plus those who play a higher % of Tests against bigger teams (the Big 3) would be disproportionately favoured. Besides we already have the ICC Rankings which reflect opposition strength.

Where I agree is there should be a proper home and away system where each team plays everyone.

But we know why this compromise system exists where teams only play 6 series - the Indian Govt will not sanction a Test series with Pakistan.
Click to expand...

It's not just about beating Big3 or higher ranked teams. You can play the majority of the series at home and make it to the final. A far better team may be touring Ind, Aus etc at the same time and won't make it.

India lost the first test in Aus, Eng won the first test in India. The Series result was totally different than a one-off game. One-off games are fine for limited-overs championships, but for the test format, it leaves a lot to be desired.
 
NZ are just a lucky team, their WTC win in ENG was pure luck.

Indians were cold and isolating with no match practice while NZ were well prepared having got plenty of practice in the local conditions.

On level playing field NO WAY Nz wins WTC match...
....
 
A win of epic proportions for Bangladesh fans. Truly outclassed the Kiwi side in their backyard which even the very best team couldn't do.

They needed a win of this magnitude after that loss vs Pakistan in 2 days. Well deserved!
 
Romali_rotti said:
NZ are just a lucky team, their WTC win in ENG was pure luck.

Indians were cold and isolating with no match practice while NZ were well prepared having got plenty of practice in the local conditions.

On level playing field NO WAY Nz wins WTC match...
....
Click to expand...

Let's not go that far. NZ had also beaten a full strength acclimitized Indian team in NZ in 2020 as well. Indian batsmen struggle in grassy conditions.
 
"We played great cricket throughout this Test match. In every department. Top-order batting, fast bowlers, spinners. Even the captain got us breakthroughs. It will be tough to find something negative from this Test win."

-Habibul Bashar (BD selector)
 
Savak said:
Let's not go that far. NZ had also beaten a full strength acclimitized Indian team in NZ in 2020 as well. Indian batsmen struggle in grassy conditions.
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Nah for the WTC it was pure luck.. Indians were cold and isolating while NZ was well prepared, they would have lost had Indians not been isolating..
 
Stop crying. NZ were deserving winners of WTC. They showed an intent, played a series before WTC final whereas Indian players were busy playing pyjama league. I said this before WTC final that Indian fans will use this tried and tested excuse of not getting enough practice before WTC final after losing the match. :inti
 
Getting obliterated 3-0 in conditions that should favour them. BD drawing a test series in NZ was almost as big as an upset as Zimbabwe winning a test series in Pakistan.

This has been a dull performance :inti
 
They are in steep decline now post Wattling and Taylor. That takes nothing away from the amazing team they were across formats over the last 5 years or so. Their cycle seems to have ended but they can be very proud of what they've produced over the last few years.
 
Bhaag Viru Bhaag said:
Stop crying. NZ were deserving winners of WTC. They showed an intent, played a series before WTC final whereas Indian players were busy playing pyjama league. I said this before WTC final that Indian fans will use this tried and tested excuse of not getting enough practice before WTC final after losing the match. :inti
Click to expand...

Nahh.

Indians were cold and isolating with minimal match practice in the conditions while NZ were ready and tested in the local conditions...

:inti
 
Marooned;11507162[I said:
]They are in steep decline now post Wattling and Taylor. [/I]That takes nothing away from the amazing team they were across formats over the last 5 years or so. Their cycle seems to have ended but they can be very proud of what they've produced over the last few years.
Click to expand...

They have figured out their replacements in Mitchell and Blundell. I think Blundell may struggle in other conditions but Mitchell is a solid batsman and going through a great patch.

Their problem is their bowling which is pretty one dimensional and hopeless without Jamieson. Southee and Wagner are perhaps past too.
 
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