J&K Govt orders suspension of social media for a month in Kashmir

[waqar goraya]

Obviously there is no parallel. One is internationally recognized legal territory. Other is internationally recognized occupied territory. Indian Kashmir is the highest subsidized state in India. PoK is the 2nd lowest subsidized, ahead of only Baluchistan. Rep. of India has never compromised on territorial integrity of Jammu and Kashmir. Pakistan already violated it by giving Kashmiri land to China.

Indian kashmir is not 'occupied'. It is internationally recognized legal Indian territory. Pakistan Kashmir is occupied Kashmir. If you cannot accept basic, commonly acknowledged legal facts, it goes on to show how deluded and out of touch of reality you guys are.

PS: I am not a kid. Unless 40 is the new 20.

So, now i will have to reply to this non sense, which is not only extremely naive but also very ignorant

 

[Subaltern]

So, now i will have to reply to this non sense, which is not only extremely naive but also very ignorant

So quoting UNSC verdict and basic legalism is naive and ignorant ? I think i am beginning to understand the root of Pakistani law and order problems.

Awaiting any LEGALLY VALID argument from Pakistan/Pakistanis. We've been waiting for 70+ years for a valid legal argument, still waiting!

 

[waqar goraya]

So quoting UNSC verdict and basic legalism is naive and ignorant ? I think i am beginning to understand the root of Pakistani law and order problems.

Awaiting any LEGALLY VALID argument from Pakistan/Pakistanis. We've been waiting for 70+ years for a valid legal argument, still waiting!

So, there is a Security council verdict which declares Kashmir integral part of India? Since when security council decrees on the matters relating to the recognition of states? Even your neighbors Iran, China and others don't consider Kashmir integral part of India.

International aspects are more political in nature than legal. Until and unless Kashmiris consider themselves Indians or at least there are no conflicting claims by Pakistan Kashmir can't be considered a part of India.

This thread is not about counter claims by India or Pakistan but the prevailing grim situation in Kashmir, So i suggest don't digress too far from this thread.

 

[Subaltern]

So, there is a Security council verdict which declares Kashmir integral part of India? Since when security council decrees on the matters relating to the recognition of states? Even your neighbors Iran, China and others don't consider Kashmir integral part of India.

International aspects are more political in nature than legal. Until and unless Kashmiris consider themselves Indians or at least there are no conflicting claims by Pakistan Kashmir can't be considered a part of India.

This thread is not about counter claims by India or Pakistan but the prevailing grim situation in Kashmir, So i suggest don't digress too far from this thread.

1. Security council recognizes that step1 of any solution to Kashmir, is for Pakistan to get out of PoK.

2. Security council, in separate declaration, recognizes that only sovereign power has the authority to exercise military presence in its territory, without invitation from the people of said territory. Should you wish it, i can provide the said declaration.

Step 2 of the process for Kashmir's solution, allows India to 'reduce troop presence step by step until a skeleton force is left to ensure minimum land and order situation. Ergo, UNSC is recognizing India as the sovereign.

3. International recognition is LEGAL by nature. As i said, international law recognizes a legal sovereign's ability to accede nationhood to another legally recognized sovereign, dependent only on mutual agreement.

As i said, nobody questions Qalat's accession to Pakistan. Because two legal sovereigns decided and accepted the solution. Kashmir-India is also identical.

Yes, you can question the CONTINUATION of legal sovereign rights under democracy. No one said, we can't question Kashmir's status with the legal sovereign. Except for right-wing Indian nationalists (which I am not by the way- i am a staunch atheist, so BJP's pateet-pavan-sita-ram is also offensive to me), nobody in the OFFICIAL CAPACITY has declared Kashmir will be forever Indian.

UNSC recognizes this. Hence the provisions for full and impartial referendum. But after Paksitan complies with step1. It is clearly mentioned in step 2, that step 2 can only be executed if step 1 is. And that is, for Pakistan to vacate PoK.

This criteria has not been met.
Until this criteria is met, India as legal sovereign, cannot start a process to determine Kashmir's fate.

If you guys want Kashmir so bad, its a pretty simple process : return PoK to India and then spend your $30M to continuously remind the world that India now is in violation of UNSC agreement. If kashmiris truly want to be with you guys, they will vote for you. Shouldn't be so hard either, if 100% of Pok Wants to be part of Kashmir and majority of Indian Kashmir wants to be part of Pakistan, as Pakistan claims.


Your government has singularly hidden one aspect of this whole dispute resolution: its a bloody court case, not an opinion bhaashan. Countries do not screw around in the UNSC regarding sovereign rights and independence procedure. And that is why, you guys have failed in 70 years, to do anything about Kashmir.
True, we've failed to take away part of Kashmir under your occupation. But thats coz we know you guys have no article 370, so your Punjabis and Pathans have flooded into Mirpur, Muzzaffarabad and such, so its a moot point for PoK.
And we know the law favours us, so if you cannot solve Kashmir by force, then you will HAVE to play the legal game. Thats the other way.

So don't get me wrong- i am not surprised or angry at Pakistan for screwing with Kashmir. Thats their only way, if they don't want to go the legal way. But unless you guys somehow manage to convince convince China that India deserves to be nuked by China and start WWIII, you guys are not going to get any more of Kashmir with a military solution.

I think your army knows this too, since the only thing its tried against us since 1971 is a half-assed attempt to infiltrate and then get blown to bits, with the added 'bonus' of really pissing off the US or UK, who till that point, mostly supported Pakistan in international matters.

So then, terrorism and stone-throwing/future-suicide-attacks is the only way. And you won't win that way either. Coz Kashmir is not big enough, populous enough or rich enough a land for India to get really hurt over. For all the things that matter for war, Kashmir by itself is an annoying pimple on India's face. Nothing more.

 

[Subaltern]

By the way, if sovereign rights were determined by politics, not legalese, USA would've declared Kashmir as integral to Pakistan. Yet, at no point, it has. It practically sent an intimidatory carrier force in to BoB during 71 victory. Why then, that was the only time USA didn't use verbal intimidation before it sent carriers to threaten ?

Because, USA signed the bloody document **PAKISTAN*** is in violation of as recommended course of action.

Look, if you guys are gonna be buddy-buddy with China, might as well learn a few things from them. Learn about legalism. And the PRC's position on sovereign determination criterias.

 

[waqar goraya]

1. Security council recognizes that step1 of any solution to Kashmir, is for Pakistan to get out of PoK.

2. Security council, in separate declaration, recognizes that only sovereign power has the authority to exercise military presence in its territory, without invitation from the people of said territory. Should you wish it, i can provide the said declaration.

Step 2 of the process for Kashmir's solution, allows India to 'reduce troop presence step by step until a skeleton force is left to ensure minimum land and order situation. Ergo, UNSC is recognizing India as the sovereign.

3. International recognition is LEGAL by nature. As i said, international law recognizes a legal sovereign's ability to accede nationhood to another legally recognized sovereign, dependent only on mutual agreement.

As i said, nobody questions Qalat's accession to Pakistan. Because two legal sovereigns decided and accepted the solution. Kashmir-India is also identical.

Yes, you can question the CONTINUATION of legal sovereign rights under democracy. No one said, we can't question Kashmir's status with the legal sovereign. Except for right-wing Indian nationalists (which I am not by the way- i am a staunch atheist, so BJP's pateet-pavan-sita-ram is also offensive to me), nobody in the OFFICIAL CAPACITY has declared Kashmir will be forever Indian.

UNSC recognizes this. Hence the provisions for full and impartial referendum. But after Paksitan complies with step1. It is clearly mentioned in step 2, that step 2 can only be executed if step 1 is. And that is, for Pakistan to vacate PoK.

This criteria has not been met.
Until this criteria is met, India as legal sovereign, cannot start a process to determine Kashmir's fate.

If you guys want Kashmir so bad, its a pretty simple process : return PoK to India and then spend your $30M to continuously remind the world that India now is in violation of UNSC agreement. If kashmiris truly want to be with you guys, they will vote for you. Shouldn't be so hard either, if 100% of Pok Wants to be part of Kashmir and majority of Indian Kashmir wants to be part of Pakistan, as Pakistan claims.


Your government has singularly hidden one aspect of this whole dispute resolution: its a bloody court case, not an opinion bhaashan. Countries do not screw around in the UNSC regarding sovereign rights and independence procedure. And that is why, you guys have failed in 70 years, to do anything about Kashmir.
True, we've failed to take away part of Kashmir under your occupation. But thats coz we know you guys have no article 370, so your Punjabis and Pathans have flooded into Mirpur, Muzzaffarabad and such, so its a moot point for PoK.
And we know the law favours us, so if you cannot solve Kashmir by force, then you will HAVE to play the legal game. Thats the other way.

So don't get me wrong- i am not surprised or angry at Pakistan for screwing with Kashmir. Thats their only way, if they don't want to go the legal way. But unless you guys somehow manage to convince convince China that India deserves to be nuked by China and start WWIII, you guys are not going to get any more of Kashmir with a military solution.

I think your army knows this too, since the only thing its tried against us since 1971 is a half-assed attempt to infiltrate and then get blown to bits, with the added 'bonus' of really pissing off the US or UK, who till that point, mostly supported Pakistan in international matters.

So then, terrorism and stone-throwing/future-suicide-attacks is the only way. And you won't win that way either. Coz Kashmir is not big enough, populous enough or rich enough a land for India to get really hurt over. For all the things that matter for war, Kashmir by itself is an annoying pimple on India's face. Nothing more.

As i said earlier for legality the absence of conflicting claims on a territory and recognition from other nation states is essential. And in this case there are conflicting claims and their widespread approval at the world stage.

Indian state is itself content with their usurpation of Indian Occupied Kashmir why do you want more Kashmir?

This thread is not about claims over Kashmir but the prevailing security and humanitarian situation. No where in this thread I have commented on the accession issue then why are you quoting me again and again? It is for Kashmiris to decide whether they want to be independent, with India or with Pakistan.

 

[waqar goraya]

By the way, if sovereign rights were determined by politics, not legalese, USA would've declared Kashmir as integral to Pakistan. Yet, at no point, it has. It practically sent an intimidatory carrier force in to BoB during 71 victory. Why then, that was the only time USA didn't use verbal intimidation before it sent carriers to threaten ?

Because, USA signed the bloody document **PAKISTAN*** is in violation of as recommended course of action.

Look, if you guys are gonna be buddy-buddy with China, might as well learn a few things from them. Learn about legalism. And the PRC's position on sovereign determination criterias.

Yes, I know their handling of court decision regarding South China sea.

 

[Subaltern]

As i said earlier for legality the absence of conflicting claims on a territory and recognition from other nation states is essential. And in this case there are conflicting claims and their widespread approval at the world stage.

Indian state is itself content with their usurpation of Indian Occupied Kashmir why do you want more Kashmir?

This thread is not about claims over Kashmir but the prevailing security and humanitarian situation. No where in this thread I have commented on the accession issue then why are you quoting me again and again? It is for Kashmiris to decide whether they want to be independent, with India or with Pakistan.

Legality is not dependent on claims, it is based on legal process. Tomorrow if Pakistan starts claiming Xinjiang, it doesn't make Xinjiang disputed. Otherwise, everyone would claim everyone else's land and by default every piece of land would be 'disputed'.
FYI, UN took Kashmir off of disputed list of territories. Because sovereign rights of Kashmir legally passed from its Maharaja to Republic of India.

And yes, it is for Kashmiris to deciede whether they will be part of India, Pakistan or independent. and UNSC clearly spells out, that for that decision to come by, Pakistan needs to get out of PoK and India needs to post troops in all Kashmir to a level that ensures minimum law and order.

No one is denying Kashmir's right to self-determination, we are simply pointing out that Pakistan is the one that stands in the way of Kashmir's self determination by not implementing the verdict rendered.

 

[waqar goraya]

Legality is not dependent on claims, it is based on legal process. Tomorrow if Pakistan starts claiming Xinjiang, it doesn't make Xinjiang disputed. Otherwise, everyone would claim everyone else's land and by default every piece of land would be 'disputed'.
FYI, UN took Kashmir off of disputed list of territories. Because sovereign rights of Kashmir legally passed from its Maharaja to Republic of India.

And yes, it is for Kashmiris to deciede whether they will be part of India, Pakistan or independent. and UNSC clearly spells out, that for that decision to come by, Pakistan needs to get out of PoK and India needs to post troops in all Kashmir to a level that ensures minimum law and order.

No one is denying Kashmir's right to self-determination, we are simply pointing out that Pakistan is the one that stands in the way of Kashmir's self determination by not implementing the verdict rendered.

It is not like that today Pakistan starts claiming India as its province. Rather the question of cession and recognition of states/territories is historical in nature and other states' stance also matter.
It is a process and not merely a simple fact.Int'l law itself owes a lot to politics.

Stop this naivety, India even does not want to talk on Kashmir and for decades they refused to accept that Kashmir is in fact an issue between two countries. Months of curfew, pellet guns, killings, ban on social media, ban on the international observers, presence of hundreds of thousands of troops etc, all point out towards India's obstinate stance.

 

[Subaltern]

It is not like that today Pakistan starts claiming India as its province. Rather the question of cession and recognition of states/territories is historical in nature and other states' stance also matter.
It is a process and not merely a simple fact.Int'l law itself owes a lot to politics.

Stop this naivety, India even does not want to talk on Kashmir and for decades they refused to accept that Kashmir is in fact an issue between two countries. Months of curfew, pellet guns, killings, ban on social media, ban on the international observers, presence of hundreds of thousands of troops etc, all point out towards India's obstinate stance.

This is incoherent. I have no idea what you mean.
Question of secession is a straightforward one, recognized by international law. Question of *CONTINUED SOVEREIGN RIGHTS* is a different one.

To put it in non-legal-heavy concept, it simply means, Pakistan has zero case for questioning the fact that India has sovereign rights over Kashmir at the start. Pakistan can legally question India's continued sovereign rights over Kashmir, but Paksitan itself is the roadblock for the legal mechanism.

Legally, the sovereign is 100% to demand sovereign rights over entire territory before said determination can be made.

Those are pretty basic legal concepts, actually.

As for refused to accept- it is Pakistan that has sought outside influence into Kashmir situation since the UNSC verdict and Simla Agreement, not India. India is the one that has steadfastly maintained that until UNSC verdict is complied with, the matter is a bilateral issue of India-Pakistan only.

I can provide official Indian government claim to support this, as well. We have never allowed anyone to interfere in Kashmir because we have the legally valid position, that until Pakistan complies with said verdict or challenges it, no one has any legal basis to affect the situation.

Ofcourse India is going to be obstinate about a territory being roiled from the outside funding. Pakistan has declared war on India in 2 of the official 3 wars. In the 4th (Kargil), Pakistan was found in violation of the LoC.
So hell yes, India is going to be obstinate. Why is that shocking ??

If India didn't care for Kashmir, Kashmir wouldn't have special powers granted to it under article 370 and would still, to this day, not be the most heavily subsidized state in India, not counting military expenses.
But Indian patience is running out. We've seen and acknowledged Pakistan's boss (China's) valid example of demographic-flood in Xinjiang. Pakistan is slowly, but surely forcing our hand to 'Xinjiang' Kashmir.

 

[waqar goraya]

What are you trying to tell me in this thread which is about the ban on media in Indian occupied Kashmir? It is you who is bringing legal hypothesis here and confusing historical aspects with ground realities.

If you want a lecture on International law then start another thread.

Similarly, if you wish to prove India's moral and legal justification of occupying Kashmir then again start a new thread.

 

[Subaltern]

What are you trying to tell me in this thread which is about the ban on media in Indian occupied Kashmir? It is you who is bringing legal hypothesis here and confusing historical aspects with ground realities.

If you want a lecture on International law then start another thread.

Similarly, if you wish to prove India's moral and legal justification of occupying Kashmir then again start a new thread.

Ground realities is, India controls most of Kashmir and Pakistan is paying for stone-throwing by unemployed Kashmiris.
India is fully within its right to suspend social media or any such privileges that are being utilized by our enemy to cause problem in our own territory.

Ground reality is, Kashmir was perfectly happy being part of India till 1989. As i said, i am one of the many Indians of my generation who've gone to Kashmir and roamed all over the place with zero threats from Kashmiris. Since Pakistan's meddling started, lives of Kashmiris have gotten a whole lot worse.

 

[waqar goraya]

Ground realities is, India controls most of Kashmir and Pakistan is paying for stone-throwing by unemployed Kashmiris.
India is fully within its right to suspend social media or any such privileges that are being utilized by our enemy to cause problem in our own territory.

So, Pakistan is paying for those expensive stones which look like atomic bombs to the occupying forces?

How Pakistan is using social media that invites a complete ban from the Indian state? Even at state level your government has not accused Pakistan of recent unrest in Kashmir.

 

[Subaltern]

So, Pakistan is paying for those expensive stones which look like atomic bombs to the occupying forces?

How Pakistan is using social media that invites a complete ban from the Indian state? Even at state level your government has not accused Pakistan of recent unrest in Kashmir.

I am quite ok to suspend all border activity and social media in Kashmir to cut off Pakistani funding of the problems in Kashmir.

 

[waqar goraya]

So, Pakistan is sending those youngsters out on the streets by paying them and arming them with stones. And those thousands of Kashmirs are risking their lives and liberties for the sake of Pakistani money.

Why don't you pay them as your economy is many times larger than Pakistan. Surely, you can pay them a lot more than what Pakistan can afford.

Please, stop this mental torture now.

 

[Subaltern]

So, Pakistan is sending those youngsters out on the streets by paying them and arming them with stones. And those thousands of Kashmirs are risking their lives and liberties for the sake of Pakistani money.

Why don't you pay them as your economy is many times larger than Pakistan. Surely, you can pay them a lot more than what Pakistan can afford.

Please, stop this mental torture now.

Every rioter risks their lives. When soccer hooligans riot, they risk their lives over 22 men kicking a ball around, so why are you surprised at riot for political reasons ??

Why should we pay our citizens to NOT riot ? we should prosecute those who riot and throw them in prison. Last i checked, people or nations don't pay money to criminals to NOT engage in criminal activity.

If these idiots were in USA, they'd be rotting in jail by now.

 

[waqar goraya]

Every rioter risks their lives. When soccer hooligans riot, they risk their lives over 22 men kicking a ball around, so why are you surprised at riot for political reasons ??

Why should we pay our citizens to NOT riot ? we should prosecute those who riot and throw them in prison. Last i checked, people or nations don't pay money to criminals to NOT engage in criminal activity.

If these idiots were in USA, they'd be rotting in jail by now.

Now you would equate football hooligans with the people who are struggling for their political and basic human rights.

When there is a curfew and restrictions on movement and assembly such as ban on religious rites, gatherings then how do you expect those people not to protest? Indian occupied Kashmir's occupying force has enforced black laws which are in fact a shame to law which you claim is very dear to you. Even UN observers are not allowed in Indian occupied Kashmir because of grave human rights violations which are also punishable by law.

By all means give them punishments according to their crime of throwing stones but don't kill them, maim them, rape them and use them as shields on your army's cars.

 

[Subaltern]

Now you would equate football hooligans with the people who are struggling for their political and basic human rights.

I am simply stating that if people can riot over ball being kicked by 22 grown men, people can riot for money when they are unemployed.

When there is a curfew and restrictions on movement and assembly such as ban on religious rites, gatherings then how do you expect those people not to protest? Indian occupied Kashmir's occupying force has enforced black laws which are in fact a shame to law which you claim is very dear to you. Even UN observers are not allowed in Indian occupied Kashmir because of grave human rights violations which are also punishable by law.

By all means give them punishments according to their crime of throwing stones but don't kill them, maim them, rape them and use them as shields on your army's cars.

And all illegal executions, rapes, etc. that have been proven in court, have been punished. I simply do not get your concern on how/why Kashmiri court process should move faster or work better than rest of India.

As i said, if Kashmir was USA, all of those stone-throwing criminals would be sitting in jail for a long time.

 

[waqar goraya]

I am simply stating that if people can riot over ball being kicked by 22 grown men, people can riot for money when they are unemployed.

And all illegal executions, rapes, etc. that have been proven in court, have been punished. I simply do not get your concern on how/why Kashmiri court process should move faster or work better than rest of India.

As i said, if Kashmir was USA, all of those stone-throwing criminals would be sitting in jail for a long time.

Stop this nonsense. In the most heavily militarized part of the world , in the presence of such a vast intelligence and reconnaissance system it is impossible for a poor economy like Pakistan to fund an uprising at such a large scale for such a long time.

It is quite shameful for you to accept the Indian myth that those people are getting killed and maimed for few rupees from Pakistan. Only a fool could compare few minutes of football rioting by few hundreds to such a widespread and sustained uprising against a brutal military force.

Only in your dreams those responsible have been punished. Those army men have been given immunity via black laws and international organisations such as Amnesty International routinely highlight these garve human rights violations.

 

[90MPH]

I am simply stating that if people can riot over ball being kicked by 22 grown men, people can riot for money when they are unemployed.



And all illegal executions, rapes, etc. that have been proven in court, have been punished. I simply do not get your concern on how/why Kashmiri court process should move faster or work better than rest of India.

As i said, if Kashmir was USA, all of those stone-throwing criminals would be sitting in jail for a long time.

I feel sorry for you that you are so deluded about the ground realities in Kashmir.

You actually believe that all protests in Kashmir is being fuelled because Pakistan is paying people to do it ??

It's beyond ridiculous. Have you ever met a Kashmiri in your life ? I don't believe you have because you believe so much nonsense and seem to have no idea on why there is much resentiment against your Indian state.

The real criminals have been your Indian security forces and army that have killed thousands of innocent people, engaged in fake encounters to kill, raped and abused many women, used arbitrary torture, made many false arrests rioting in jail, the thousands that have disappeared, the mass unmarked graves, the daily harassment at checkpoints.
This is all documented on every single independent human rights organisation.
Unfortunately many of your cowardly media units have decided to shun away from this truth so instead you will have to dig for the truth. Even then it will be hard for you to stomach as the truth is always bitter.

 

[Subaltern]

I feel sorry for you that you are so deluded about the ground realities in Kashmir.

You actually believe that all protests in Kashmir is being fuelled because Pakistan is paying people to do it ??

Given that Pakistan has meddled in Kashmir, i see why not.

It's beyond ridiculous. Have you ever met a Kashmiri in your life ? I don't believe you have because you believe so much nonsense and seem to have no idea on why there is much resentiment against your Indian state.

I've met many Kashmiris. Last i checked, i've not met a single Kashmiri hindu who wants independence. For a 10 year period in late 70s to late 80s, i've been to Kashmir multiple times and i've never met anyone in the valley back then who wanted independence either. If Kashmiris always wanted independence, we'd not be able to roam freely in Kashmir like it was Kullu or Manali in the 70s and 80s.

The real criminals have been your Indian security forces and army that have killed thousands of innocent people, engaged in fake encounters to kill, raped and abused many women, used arbitrary torture, made many false arrests rioting in jail, the thousands that have disappeared, the mass unmarked graves, the daily harassment at checkpoints.
This is all documented on every single independent human rights organisation.
Unfortunately many of your cowardly media units have decided to shun away from this truth so instead you will have to dig for the truth. Even then it will be hard for you to stomach as the truth is always bitter.

Nobody has denied that crimes have been committed in Kashmir by members of the Indian military, police, citizens of India (aka normal Kashmiri folks, etc). Those that have been proven in court, have been punished.

It still doesn't change the fact that Kashmir's problem is created by Pakistan and Kashmir's solution is blocked by Pakistan.

 

[waqar goraya]

I've met many Kashmiris. Last i checked, i've not met a single Kashmiri hindu who wants independence. For a 10 year period in late 70s to late 80s, i've been to Kashmir multiple times and i've never met anyone in the valley back then who wanted independence either. If Kashmiris always wanted independence, we'd not be able to roam freely in Kashmir like it was Kullu or Manali in the 70s and 80s.

You were a born genius. My first guess was that you are 14-15 but then you told me that you were 40. So, that puts your year of birth around 77 and yet you have first hand experience of 70s.

 

[Subaltern]

You were a born genius. My first guess was that you are 14-15 but then you told me that you were 40. So, that puts your year of birth around 77 and yet you have first hand experience of 70s.

I said 40+, not 40. I was born in 1971.