Martin McGuinness: Terrorist or freedom fighter?

[Markhor]

Former IRA commander and Sinn Fein leader Martin McGuinness has died aged 66 today. His legacy will be debated for years to come with the right-wing unionist press immediately painting him as a monster, a terrorist and murderer. Firstly, there's no justification for the murder of innocent people. Thousands of people died in the Troubles, and of course the IRA have blood on their hands.

However these people casting judgement on the legacy of McGuinness in self-righteous fits of fury shows an ignorance of the context of the Troubles. Northern Ireland for decades was a near Apartheid state. Catholics were systematically discriminated against in housing and employment. Constituencies were gerrymandered so that Protestants controlled councils even in Catholic-majority areas.

When the Civil Rights Movement progressed through the 1960s and protested for Catholic rights through peaceful means, they were increasingly met with violent thuggery by the overwhelmingly Protestant police force, the RUC, and by Loyalist militias, culminating in the 1969 Battle of Bogside that saw thousands of Catholics homes and businesses burnt by Loyalist mobs. Ian Paisley, the supposed "Man of God", had no qualms about inciting Protestant youth with incendiary anti-Catholic rhetoric that massively fuelled the sectarian divide yet we only hear about the IRA's atrocities as if there was only one party to the violence.

When a peace deal was close at Sunningdale in 1972, who organised the Workers' Strike that brought it down causing the conflict to continue for another two decades ? It wasn't Martin McGuinness but Ian Paisley.

So how can it be any surprise that an armed struggle ensued upon the failure of peaceful means ? What do you expect a young Catholic boy to do when he sees the "noble" British Army murder 13 unarmed Catholics on Bloody Sunday in 1972 and the British establishment cover it up ? Was that not TERRORISM orchestrated by the state ?

In 1998 when the Good Friday Agreement was made it was McGuinness who along with the SDLP, UUP and others put their lives on the line to strike a deal for peace - whereas Ian Paisley and his bigoted ilk were shouting "NEVER NEVER NEVER".

Again, the lives lost at the hands of the IRA is regrettable and tragic. McGuinness's legacy is complex and multilayered. But we cannot learn the lessons of history through the one-sided perspective the unionist press would like us to view The Troubles.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

You've hit the nail on the head [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION]. Its clear why crap like Poppy Nationalism is on the rise when you see the British reaction to this news. A man who was oppressed by his own state and police force, left with no option but to take up arms to fight for his rights while unarmed protesters got beaten, interned and killed, and all most British seem to focus on is the IRA part, completely ignoring the fact that it was the British government and army's policies and actions that lead to the PIRA existing in the first place, and that without him dragging the PIRA to the negotiating board we'd still have bombs every second week in Ulster. Laughable

Ireland lost a true hero today. Absolutely nothing can forgive or excuse the deaths of innocents McGuinness and his organisation are responsible for, but they were forced into picking up arms by an apartheid,sectarian state where political rigging was rife, Catholics got overlooked for jobs and houses on a constant basis and where Catholics were burned out of their homes to such an extent the Battle of the Bogside you mentioned was the biggest displacement of people since the Jews fled Germany during WW2. Yet the dinasours of Unionism (which make up the majority of Unionism sadly) like Jim Allister will proudly flout and glow over UDA/UVF/Loyalist paramilitaries while feigning concern for IRA victims at every opportunity such as today. Sickening.

He had the courage to change his ways and see the path NI had to take and he ensured it went down that path. Also, unlike Gerry Adams, Martin was always honest about his role in the PIRA and never denied his involvement in the organisation, something which garnered respect down South here. He went against everything the PIRA had done up to that point and ensured that NI would see peace, despite furious objections from his own organisation.

He fought for his people, his methods were at times horrific, that cannot be argued, but let it never be said he instigated it. As I read in an article earlier today, war found its way towards Martin McGuinness, not the other way around. Shows the whitewashing of history that goes on in the UK that this is ignored in favour of the laughable "Our innocent boys were butchered by dem barbaric Irish" narrative I've seen by some today.

Strikingly similar story to that of Mandela IMO.

Ar dheis De go raibh a anam.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

"Whenever people reach out the hand of friendship to me I am not going to refuse it”

- Martin McGuiness

 

[dildildalwalla]

Freedom Fighter and unapologetically so.

It is quite ridiculous that centuries of oppression by our government is forgotten and somehow the people fighting the oppression become the terrorists. I say ******** to that. McGuinness was a good lad.

 

[KingKhanWC]

You've hit the nail on the head [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION]. Its clear why crap like Poppy Nationalism is on the rise when you see the British reaction to this news. A man who was oppressed by his own state and police force, left with no option but to take up arms to fight for his rights while unarmed protesters got beaten, interned and killed, and all most British seem to focus on is the IRA part, completely ignoring the fact that it was the British government and army's policies and actions that lead to the PIRA existing in the first place, and that without him dragging the PIRA to the negotiating board we'd still have bombs every second week in Ulster. Laughable

Ireland lost a true hero today. Absolutely nothing can forgive or excuse the deaths of innocents McGuinness and his organisation are responsible for, but they were forced into picking up arms by an apartheid,sectarian state where political rigging was rife, Catholics got overlooked for jobs and houses on a constant basis and where Catholics were burned out of their homes to such an extent the Battle of the Bogside you mentioned was the biggest displacement of people since the Jews fled Germany during WW2. Yet the dinasours of Unionism (which make up the majority of Unionism sadly) like Jim Allister will proudly flout and glow over UDA/UVF/Loyalist paramilitaries while feigning concern for IRA victims at every opportunity such as today. Sickening.

He had the courage to change his ways and see the path NI had to take and he ensured it went down that path. Also, unlike Gerry Adams, Martin was always honest about his role in the PIRA and never denied his involvement in the organisation, something which garnered respect down South here. He went against everything the PIRA had done up to that point and ensured that NI would see peace, despite furious objections from his own organisation.

He fought for his people, his methods were at times horrific, that cannot be argued, but let it never be said he instigated it. As I read in an article earlier today, war found its way towards Martin McGuinness, not the other way around. Shows the whitewashing of history that goes on in the UK that this is ignored in favour of the laughable "Our innocent boys were butchered by dem barbaric Irish" narrative I've seen by some today.

Strikingly similar story to that of Mandela IMO.

Ar dheis De go raibh a anam.

Thanks for the detailed post but are you suggesting innocents were caught up or were deliberately targeted?

 

[Donal Cozzie]

Thanks for the detailed post but are you suggesting innocents were caught up or were deliberately targeted?

The PIRA murdered dozens of innocent civilians, while their stated aim was just to target British Army personnel and they did call in warnings so people could be evacuated before bombs went off , they still murdered dozens of innocents and events like Omagh can never be forgotten.

 

[KingKhanWC]

The PIRA murdered dozens of innocent civilians, while their stated aim was just to target British Army personnel and they did call in warnings so people could be evacuated before bombs went off , they still murdered dozens of innocents and events like Omagh can never be forgotten.

How is he different from someone targeting people in London because of the Iraq invasion/occupation? They will always remain terrorists even if their cause is similar. Do you believe the 7/7 bombers were hero's too?

 

[Robert]

You've hit the nail on the head [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION]. Its clear why crap like Poppy Nationalism is on the rise when you see the British reaction to this news.

Rather a generalisation there [MENTION=136108]Donal Cozzie[/MENTION]. I saw plenty of British praise for the man's contribution to peace.

 

[Robert]

Oh, and [MENTION=53290]Markhor[/MENTION], it was good to see the Reverend Paisley and Mr McGuinness shaking hands and sharing a joke. If you praise Mr McGuinness for renouncing the hate and violence and becoming a statesman, how about extending some respect to Dr Paisley for doing the same?

 

[Robert]

How is he different from someone targeting people in London because of the Iraq invasion/occupation? They will always remain terrorists even if their cause is similar. Do you believe the 7/7 bombers were hero's too?

The difference is that the 7/7 bombers did not go on to become peacemakers.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

Rather a generalisation there [MENTION=136108]Donal Cozzie[/MENTION]. I saw plenty of British praise for the man's contribution to peace.

Correct [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION], apologies, its just the general feeling I've seen of UK media has been negative. Nobody is asking people to love the man, but to just paint him as a murderer without analysing the conflict is incredibly naive.
[MENTION=29741]KingKhan[/MENTION] Robert answered the question there, eventually the PIRA saw sense and disarmed. Also, you have to factor in that in the North all democratic and peaceful means had been met with nothing but bullets and violence by the police and army up to the point that the IRA, who had been disbanded in the early 1960's, made a return as the PIRA in the 70's.
[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] as for Ian Paisley, he does deserve credit for eventually doing the right thing, but that does not excuse the fact that every death after the Sunningdale Agreement collapse could arguably be placed on his bitter hatred of everything Irish and inability to see Irish Nationalists as equal human beings.. Also, he wasn't being oppressed or interned by his police force, his and the loyalists actions were motivated solely by a stone age mentality of hatred of their fellow men and women and the desire to exterminate each and every one of them. His son I'm happy to say is someone who most people actually want to see lead the DUP down here, as he's one of the very very few Unionist politicians who seems to actually want to work with both communities and make a better NI for all. Goes to show how people can change. Paisley for the record was credited on his death for his role down here, but yes, most Irish people didn't shed a tear for him, and when you see the hatred he spouted for decades and his fight against equal rights in the North for so long, its easy to see why.

 

[Robert]

Correct [MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION], apologies, its just the general feeling I've seen of UK media has been negative. Nobody is asking people to love the man, but to just paint him as a murderer without analysing the conflict is incredibly naive.
[MENTION=29741]KingKhan[/MENTION] Robert answered the question there, eventually the PIRA saw sense and disarmed. Also, you have to factor in that in the North all democratic and peaceful means had been met with nothing but bullets and violence by the police and army up to the point that the IRA, who had been disbanded in the early 1960's, made a return as the PIRA in the 70's.
[MENTION=7774]Robert[/MENTION] as for Ian Paisley, he does deserve credit for eventually doing the right thing, but that does not excuse the fact that every death after the Sunningdale Agreement collapse could arguably be placed on his bitter hatred of everything Irish and inability to see Irish Nationalists as equal human beings.. Also, he wasn't being oppressed or interned by his police force, his and the loyalists actions were motivated solely by a stone age mentality of hatred of their fellow men and women and the desire to exterminate each and every one of them. His son I'm happy to say is someone who most people actually want to see lead the DUP down here, as he's one of the very very few Unionist politicians who seems to actually want to work with both communities and make a better NI for all. Goes to show how people can change. Paisley for the record was credited on his death for his role down here, but yes, most Irish people didn't shed a tear for him, and when you see the hatred he spouted for decades and his fight against equal rights in the North for so long, its easy to see why.

Fair points.

 

[KingKhanWC]

The difference is that the 7/7 bombers did not go on to become peacemakers.

According to the official narrative, the bombers died but they were representing Al-Qaeda who are still operational. Why doesn't the western governments find a peace deal with them as they did with IRA?

It's nice to know you feel a man can become a hero after murdering countless innocent people if he then decides to make peace. I disagree.

 

[Markhor]

According to the official narrative, the bombers died but they were representing Al-Qaeda who are still operational. Why doesn't the western governments find a peace deal with them as they did with IRA?

It's nice to know you feel a man can become a hero after murdering countless innocent people if he then decides to make peace. I disagree.

You need to research the history of the conflict in more detail. Armed struggle was primiarily against legitimate military targets and was a last resort after peaceful protests for Catholic rights, who were being treated marginally better than the blacks of South Africa and the Jim Crow South, was met with bullets and firebombs from the RUC and Loyalist mobs during the 1960s.

But what massively drove IRA recruitment was the massacre of 13 unarmed people by the British Army in Derry. From then on, the British Army were no longer seen as a neutral peacekeeper but an occupying force. Forget the post-9/11 world, the British state were detaining people without trial even in the 1970s and subject to torture. Many had ZERO links with the IRA whilst Loyalist paramilitaries were ALSO carrying out violence, which were mainly directed against Catholics and Irish nationalists, but NO Loyalists were interned despite them terrorising Catholic communities for years.

Were the Catholics meant to hold hands and sing kumbaya or actually resist those killing them with impunity like the Palestinian resistance ? Nobody is condoning the deaths of civilians, and tragic mistakes did occur. But remember the IRA was not a homogenous entity. It was split into many factions, with the more radical elements taking it too far.

You cannot compare with Al Qaeda as unlike them, the Provisional IRA did lay down its weapons and had reasonable political demands. If killing civilians bars you from political dialogue, then by your logic neither the British Government nor the Unionists could be seen as valid peacemakers.

 

[James]

Tempted to go with terrorist I'm afraid.

 

[Robert]

According to the official narrative, the bombers died but they were representing Al-Qaeda who are still operational. Why doesn't the western governments find a peace deal with them as they did with IRA?

Because Al-Q don't have a political party to represent them in the UK.

It's nice to know you feel a man can become a hero after murdering countless innocent people if he then decides to make peace. I disagree.

I never called him a hero. Please don't put words in my mouth.

 

[KingKhanWC]

You need to research the history of the conflict in more detail. Armed struggle was primiarily against legitimate military targets and was a last resort after peaceful protests for Catholic rights, who were being treated marginally better than the blacks of South Africa and the Jim Crow South, was met with bullets and firebombs from the RUC and Loyalist mobs during the 1960s.

But what massively drove IRA recruitment was the massacre of 13 unarmed people by the British Army in Derry. From then on, the British Army were no longer seen as a neutral peacekeeper but an occupying force. Forget the post-9/11 world, the British state were detaining people without trial even in the 1970s and subject to torture. Many had ZERO links with the IRA whilst Loyalist paramilitaries were ALSO carrying out violence, which were mainly directed against Catholics and Irish nationalists, but NO Loyalists were interned despite them terrorising Catholic communities for years.

Were the Catholics meant to hold hands and sing kumbaya or actually resist those killing them with impunity like the Palestinian resistance ? Nobody is condoning the deaths of civilians, and tragic mistakes did occur. But remember the IRA was not a homogenous entity. It was split into many factions, with the more radical elements taking it too far.

You cannot compare with Al Qaeda as unlike them, the Provisional IRA did lay down its weapons and had reasonable political demands. If killing civilians bars you from political dialogue, then by your logic neither the British Government nor the Unionists could be seen as valid peacemakers.

I totally understand your points. But my point regarding MM as a hero. Dialogue for peace is always good regardless of the crimes of the opponent.

The issue is if a person has killed innocent people, regardless of the context and reasons. He may be labelled a peacemaker, statesman, negotiator but a hero? No chance and I agree with [MENTION=1842]James[/MENTION].

 

[KingKhanWC]

Because Al-Q don't have a political party to represent them in the UK.


I never called him a hero. Please don't put words in my mouth.

Dialogue for peace can be opened with anyone even Al-Qaeda. Remember when they first came to light, they had polticial reasons for their attacks.

You were replying to my point of him being a hero but I apologise if you don't believe this. If he's not a hero in your eyes, that's great, I feel the same too.

 

[James]

Ian Paisley was a particularly disgusting human being by the way, a calculated religious extremist. (Incidentally his son is less disgusting and considerably less brainy - he is just a bit of an idiot.)

 

[Robert]

Dialogue for peace can be opened with anyone even Al-Qaeda. Remember when they first came to light, they had polticial reasons for their attacks.

What would your approach be?

You were replying to my point of him being a hero but I apologise if you don't believe this. If he's not a hero in your eyes, that's great, I feel the same too.

I would say his legacy is complex. He doesn't fit the usual pigeonholes. I can understand if people can't forgive him.

 

[Donal Cozzie]

For those who want a small insight into what led not just Martin but hundreds of young men to the IRA back in the 70's. Surprised this hasn't gotten more headlines.

A 15-YEAR-OLD shot dead in Derry City by a British soldier in May 1972 – just weeks after the Bloody Sunday massacre of civil rights marchers by the Parachute Regiment – was “totally innocent”, a coroner said on Monday.

And the coroner’s declaration that Manus Deery did not pose a threat to anyone effectively demolishes claims by his killer and a fellow soldier that they had clearly seen the youngster carrying a rifle.

He was eating chips at the time with a group of teenage friends when he was shot in the head by a soldier from an observation post on the city’s walls.

The Ministry of Defence only publicly acknowledged at the closing of the inquest on 21 November of last year that Manus was not a member of any armed organisation.

The teenager’s killer was identified at the inquest last year as Private William Glasgow, who had died in 2001.

Glasgow’s statement to the Royal Military Police said that on 19 May 1972 he was told by another soldier (witness ‘Soldier B’) that he had seen a male person “armed with a rifle in the trail position” at the rear of the Bogside Inn.

Glasgow added that he “observed the rear of the Bogside Inn, through the telescope, and also saw the male person armed with a rifle”.

The statement went on to say this person was “standing inside an archway against the right wall" and said definitively:

“He was definitely armed with a rifle.”

Helen Deery, Manus’s sister, said during the inquest:

“Manus was an innocent child whose young life was brutally taken from him.

“He did nothing wrong.

“At the beginning, the British Army claimed that he was a gunman – that wasn’t true. He wasn’t rioting either.

“Manus was eating a bag of chips and chatting to his friends when a soldier opened fire on him.”

The “happy-go-lucky” teenager had received his first pay packet from working in the Thomas French factory only hours before he was killed.

http://www.anphoblacht.com/contents/26802