Maximum accepted average for an ATG bowler in current era?

[KP From India]

For pace bowler
For spinner
In ODIs
In tests?

 

[hur rizvi]

Tests

For spinner < 27

For fast bowler <25

ODIs

For spinner < 23
For fast bowler <23

So pretty much standard

 

[Chief Destroyer]

What do you mean current era? The truly great bowlers won't have trouble averaging below 25 regardless of era.

 

[jeeteshssaxena]

Tests

For spinner < 27

For fast bowler <25

ODIs

For spinner < 23
For fast bowler <23

So pretty much standard

Wasim akram is probably the GOAT odi bowler and his avg is 23.52.
Its too difficult to avg below 23 after playing a good amount of games.

 

[Last Monetarist]

For tests I'd class it around 26 for fast bowlers and 28 for spinners. Although given batting averages have fallen this year due to a combination of better pitches and ordinary batting, I reckon that upward trend in bowling averages should start reversing.

 

[Darkrai]

Basically average under 25 after at least 10 years of cricket.

 

[InziFans]

What do you mean current era? The truly great bowlers won't have trouble averaging below 25 regardless of era.

But way too many bowlers have been averaging below 25 recently in LOIs. Mustafizur Rahman (20.56) for instance - with his average in the 80s or 90s he'd be a certified ATG (in ODIs), but it doesn't seem as extraordinary today.

 

[Ab Fan]

There is no statistical number for this.

An ATG should give a vibe of ATGs to be considered as ATG.

Vernon Philander and Mohammad Yousuf have got great numbers but are not even close to ATGs.

 

[Bilal7]

What do you mean current era? The truly great bowlers won't have trouble averaging below 25 regardless of era.

Agreed, this thread is strange. 25 and 50 are the benchmarks for bowlers and batsmen, respectively. This does not mean that all great bowlers have to average below 25 and all great batsmen have to average over 50, because there are always exceptions.

 

[Chief Destroyer]

But way too many bowlers have been averaging below 25 recently in LOIs. Mustafizur Rahman (20.56) for instance - with his average in the 80s or 90s he'd be a certified ATG (in ODIs), but it doesn't seem as extraordinary today.

If he can end with 300-400 wickets at that average, then he deserves to be in the conversation.

 

[Bilal7]

There is no statistical number for this.

An ATG should give a vibe of ATGs to be considered as ATG.

Vernon Philander and Mohammad Yousuf have got great numbers but are not even close to ATGs.

They are much closer to being all-time greats than the "vibes" you got from Andrew Flintoff and David Warner. At least with numbers, you are not relying purely on a person's opinion.

 

[AlizeeFan]

Tests

For spinner < 27

For fast bowler <25

ODIs

For spinner < 23
For fast bowler <23

So pretty much standard

How many spinners have averaged less than 27 in last 40 years?

 

[AlizeeFan]

Among all spinners who have taken 200+ wickets

Murali 800 wickets at 22.72
Warne 708 wickets at avg of 25.41
Ashwin 342 wickets at avg of 25.43

Rest all average below 28. So cricket has seen only 3 ATG spinners in 100 years of history?

 

[Mamoon]

There are no rigid measures of greatness; every career has a different story.

For example, James Anderson is undoubtedly a living legend and one of the greats of the game, regardless of the fact that his bowling average will always be in the high 20's.

 

[Ab Fan]

They are much closer to being all-time greats than the "vibes" you got from Andrew Flintoff and David Warner. At least with numbers, you are not relying purely on a person's opinion.

Numbers can be misleading As hell. You need to watch the player over a career to make conclusions on it. Of course, for pre-90s, we can only conclude on what we read about them and rest all will be assumptions.

I dont get any ATG vibe from Flintoff or Warner. Flintoff had a short purple patch when he bowled brilliantly. Warner is also not even close to ATG.

I got that vibe from Kevin Pietersen but he underachieved unfortunately.

 

[Hawkeye]

Anything above 350-400 wickets in the low to mid 20s average.

But, it's not a hard rigid cutoff point. True for MOST of the cases, though.

 

[jeetu]

Spinners with 200+ wickets with sub 30 average
[table=width: 600, class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Player [/td][td]Span [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Wkts [/td][td]Avg [/td][td]Econ [/td][td]SR [/td][td]5W [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]M Muralitharan (ICC/SL) [/td][td]1992-2010 [/td][td]133 [/td][td]800 [/td][td]22.72 [/td][td]2.47 [/td][td]55 [/td][td]67 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]CV Grimmett (AUS) [/td][td]1925-1936 [/td][td]37 [/td][td]216 [/td][td]24.21 [/td][td]2.16 [/td][td]67.1 [/td][td]21 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SK Warne (AUS) [/td][td]1992-2007 [/td][td]145 [/td][td]708 [/td][td]25.41 [/td][td]2.65 [/td][td]57.4 [/td][td]37 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]R Ashwin (INDIA) [/td][td]2011-2018 [/td][td]65 [/td][td]342 [/td][td]25.43 [/td][td]2.84 [/td][td]53.7 [/td][td]26 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DL Underwood (ENG) [/td][td]1966-1982 [/td][td]86 [/td][td]297 [/td][td]25.83 [/td][td]2.1 [/td][td]73.6 [/td][td]17 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]R Benaud (AUS) [/td][td]1952-1964 [/td][td]63 [/td][td]248 [/td][td]27.03 [/td][td]2.1 [/td][td]77 [/td][td]16 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]HMRKB Herath (SL) [/td][td]1999-2018 [/td][td]93 [/td][td]433 [/td][td]28.07 [/td][td]2.8 [/td][td]60 [/td][td]34 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Yasir Shah (PAK) [/td][td]2014-2018 [/td][td]33 [/td][td]202 [/td][td]28.26 [/td][td]3.08 [/td][td]54.9 [/td][td]16 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]B Bedi (INDIA) [/td][td]1966-1979 [/td][td]67 [/td][td]266 [/td][td]28.71 [/td][td]2.14 [/td][td]80.3 [/td][td]14 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SCG MacGill (AUS) [/td][td]1998-2008 [/td][td]44 [/td][td]208 [/td][td]29.02 [/td][td]3.22 [/td][td]54 [/td][td]12 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]LR Gibbs (WI) [/td][td]1958-1976 [/td][td]79 [/td][td]309 [/td][td]29.09 [/td][td]1.98 [/td][td]87.7 [/td][td]18 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]A Kumble (INDIA) [/td][td]1990-2008 [/td][td]132 [/td][td]619 [/td][td]29.65 [/td][td]2.69 [/td][td]65.9 [/td][td]35 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]B Chandrasekhar (INDIA) [/td][td]1964-1979 [/td][td]58 [/td][td]242 [/td][td]29.74 [/td][td]2.7 [/td][td]65.9 [/td][td]16 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Saqlain Mushtaq (PAK) [/td][td]1995-2004 [/td][td]49 [/td][td]208 [/td][td]29.83 [/td][td]2.64 [/td][td]67.6 [/td][td]13 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]GP Swann (ENG) [/td][td]2008-2013 [/td][td]60 [/td][td]255 [/td][td]29.96 [/td][td]2.98 [/td][td]60.1 [/td][td]17 [/td][/tr]
[/table]

 

[jeetu]

Pace Bowlers with 200+ wickets with sub 30 average
[table=width: 500, class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Player [/td][td]Span [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Wkts [/td][td]Avg [/td][td]SR [/td][td]5W [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MD Marshall (WI) [/td][td]1978-1991 [/td][td]81 [/td][td]376 [/td][td]20.94 [/td][td]46.7 [/td][td]22 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]J Garner (WI) [/td][td]1977-1987 [/td][td]58 [/td][td]259 [/td][td]20.97 [/td][td]50.8 [/td][td]7 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]CEL Ambrose (WI) [/td][td]1988-2000 [/td][td]98 [/td][td]405 [/td][td]20.99 [/td][td]54.5 [/td][td]22 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]VD Philander (SA) [/td][td]2011-2018 [/td][td]55 [/td][td]205 [/td][td]21.54 [/td][td]48.6 [/td][td]13 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]FS Trueman (ENG) [/td][td]1952-1965 [/td][td]67 [/td][td]307 [/td][td]21.57 [/td][td]49.4 [/td][td]17 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]GD McGrath (AUS) [/td][td]1993-2007 [/td][td]124 [/td][td]563 [/td][td]21.64 [/td][td]51.9 [/td][td]29 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AA Donald (SA) [/td][td]1992-2002 [/td][td]72 [/td][td]330 [/td][td]22.25 [/td][td]47 [/td][td]20 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ) [/td][td]1973-1990 [/td][td]86 [/td][td]431 [/td][td]22.29 [/td][td]50.8 [/td][td]36 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DW Steyn (SA) [/td][td]2004-2018 [/td][td]88 [/td][td]421 [/td][td]22.64 [/td][td]42 [/td][td]26 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Imran Khan (PAK) [/td][td]1971-1992 [/td][td]88 [/td][td]362 [/td][td]22.81 [/td][td]53.7 [/td][td]23 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]RR Lindwall (AUS) [/td][td]1946-1960 [/td][td]61 [/td][td]228 [/td][td]23.03 [/td][td]59.8 [/td][td]12 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SM Pollock (SA) [/td][td]1995-2008 [/td][td]108 [/td][td]421 [/td][td]23.11 [/td][td]57.8 [/td][td]16 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Waqar Younis (PAK) [/td][td]1989-2003 [/td][td]87 [/td][td]373 [/td][td]23.56 [/td][td]43.4 [/td][td]22 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Wasim Akram (PAK) [/td][td]1985-2002 [/td][td]104 [/td][td]414 [/td][td]23.62 [/td][td]54.6 [/td][td]25 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MA Holding (WI) [/td][td]1975-1987 [/td][td]60 [/td][td]249 [/td][td]23.68 [/td][td]50.9 [/td][td]13 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DK Lillee (AUS) [/td][td]1971-1984 [/td][td]70 [/td][td]355 [/td][td]23.92 [/td][td]52 [/td][td]23 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]CA Walsh (WI) [/td][td]1984-2001 [/td][td]132 [/td][td]519 [/td][td]24.44 [/td][td]57.8 [/td][td]22 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]JB Statham (ENG) [/td][td]1951-1965 [/td][td]70 [/td][td]252 [/td][td]24.84 [/td][td]63.7 [/td][td]9 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AV Bedser (ENG) [/td][td]1946-1955 [/td][td]51 [/td][td]236 [/td][td]24.89 [/td][td]67.4 [/td][td]15 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]RGD Willis (ENG) [/td][td]1971-1984 [/td][td]90 [/td][td]325 [/td][td]25.2 [/td][td]53.4 [/td][td]16 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AME Roberts (WI) [/td][td]1974-1983 [/td][td]47 [/td][td]202 [/td][td]25.61 [/td][td]55.1 [/td][td]11 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]JN Gillespie (AUS) [/td][td]1996-2006 [/td][td]71 [/td][td]259 [/td][td]26.13 [/td][td]54.9 [/td][td]8 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]JA Snow (ENG) [/td][td]1965-1976 [/td][td]49 [/td][td]202 [/td][td]26.66 [/td][td]59.5 [/td][td]8 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]JM Anderson (ENG) [/td][td]2003-2018 [/td][td]145 [/td][td]565 [/td][td]26.98 [/td][td]56.1 [/td][td]26 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]M Morkel (SA) [/td][td]2006-2018 [/td][td]86 [/td][td]309 [/td][td]27.66 [/td][td]53.3 [/td][td]8 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]JR Thomson (AUS) [/td][td]1972-1985 [/td][td]51 [/td][td]200 [/td][td]28 [/td][td]52.6 [/td][td]8 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]HH Streak (ZIM) [/td][td]1993-2005 [/td][td]65 [/td][td]216 [/td][td]28.14 [/td][td]62.7 [/td][td]7 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MG Hughes (AUS) [/td][td]1985-1994 [/td][td]53 [/td][td]212 [/td][td]28.38 [/td][td]57.9 [/td][td]7 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]D Gough (ENG) [/td][td]1994-2003 [/td][td]58 [/td][td]229 [/td][td]28.39 [/td][td]51.6 [/td][td]9 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]IT Botham (ENG) [/td][td]1977-1992 [/td][td]102 [/td][td]383 [/td][td]28.4 [/td][td]56.9 [/td][td]27 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MG Johnson (AUS) [/td][td]2007-2015 [/td][td]73 [/td][td]313 [/td][td]28.4 [/td][td]51.1 [/td][td]12 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]TA Boult (NZ) [/td][td]2011-2018 [/td][td]58 [/td][td]224 [/td][td]28.54 [/td][td]57.6 [/td][td]6 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]CJ McDermott (AUS) [/td][td]1984-1996 [/td][td]71 [/td][td]291 [/td][td]28.63 [/td][td]56.9 [/td][td]14 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]M Ntini (SA) [/td][td]1998-2009 [/td][td]101 [/td][td]390 [/td][td]28.82 [/td][td]53.4 [/td][td]18 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SCJ Broad (ENG) [/td][td]2007-2018 [/td][td]124 [/td][td]433 [/td][td]29.04 [/td][td]58.5 [/td][td]16 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]CL Cairns (NZ) [/td][td]1989-2004 [/td][td]62 [/td][td]218 [/td][td]29.4 [/td][td]53.6 [/td][td]13 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]WPUJC Vaas (SL) [/td][td]1994-2009 [/td][td]111 [/td][td]355 [/td][td]29.58 [/td][td]66 [/td][td]12 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]N Kapil Dev (INDIA) [/td][td]1978-1994 [/td][td]131 [/td][td]434 [/td][td]29.64 [/td][td]63.9 [/td][td]23 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]GD McKenzie (AUS) [/td][td]1961-1971 [/td][td]60 [/td][td]246 [/td][td]29.78 [/td][td]71.8 [/td][td]16 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AR Caddick (ENG) [/td][td]1993-2003 [/td][td]62 [/td][td]234 [/td][td]29.91 [/td][td]57.9 [/td][td]13 [/td][/tr]
[/table]

 

[jeetu]

For tests , I'll go with for Pace bowlers 300+ wickets with sub 25 average
[table=width: 500, class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Player [/td][td]Span [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Wkts [/td][td]Avg [/td][td]SR [/td][td]5W [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MD Marshall (WI) [/td][td]1978-1991 [/td][td]81 [/td][td]376 [/td][td]20.94 [/td][td]46.7 [/td][td]22 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]CEL Ambrose (WI) [/td][td]1988-2000 [/td][td]98 [/td][td]405 [/td][td]20.99 [/td][td]54.5 [/td][td]22 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]FS Trueman (ENG) [/td][td]1952-1965 [/td][td]67 [/td][td]307 [/td][td]21.57 [/td][td]49.4 [/td][td]17 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]GD McGrath (AUS) [/td][td]1993-2007 [/td][td]124 [/td][td]563 [/td][td]21.64 [/td][td]51.9 [/td][td]29 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AA Donald (SA) [/td][td]1992-2002 [/td][td]72 [/td][td]330 [/td][td]22.25 [/td][td]47 [/td][td]20 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ) [/td][td]1973-1990 [/td][td]86 [/td][td]431 [/td][td]22.29 [/td][td]50.8 [/td][td]36 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DW Steyn (SA) [/td][td]2004-2018 [/td][td]88 [/td][td]421 [/td][td]22.64 [/td][td]42 [/td][td]26 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Imran Khan (PAK) [/td][td]1971-1992 [/td][td]88 [/td][td]362 [/td][td]22.81 [/td][td]53.7 [/td][td]23 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SM Pollock (SA) [/td][td]1995-2008 [/td][td]108 [/td][td]421 [/td][td]23.11 [/td][td]57.8 [/td][td]16 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Waqar Younis (PAK) [/td][td]1989-2003 [/td][td]87 [/td][td]373 [/td][td]23.56 [/td][td]43.4 [/td][td]22 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Wasim Akram (PAK) [/td][td]1985-2002 [/td][td]104 [/td][td]414 [/td][td]23.62 [/td][td]54.6 [/td][td]25 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DK Lillee (AUS) [/td][td]1971-1984 [/td][td]70 [/td][td]355 [/td][td]23.92 [/td][td]52 [/td][td]23 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]CA Walsh (WI) [/td][td]1984-2001 [/td][td]132 [/td][td]519 [/td][td]24.44 [/td][td]57.8 [/td][td]22 [/td][/tr]
[/table]

For Spinners , i'll go with 300+ wickets with sub 30 average
[table=width: 600, class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Player [/td][td]Span [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Wkts [/td][td]Avg [/td][td]Econ [/td][td]SR [/td][td]5W [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]M Muralitharan (ICC/SL) [/td][td]1992-2010 [/td][td]133 [/td][td]800 [/td][td]22.72 [/td][td]2.47 [/td][td]55 [/td][td]67 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SK Warne (AUS) [/td][td]1992-2007 [/td][td]145 [/td][td]708 [/td][td]25.41 [/td][td]2.65 [/td][td]57.4 [/td][td]37 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]R Ashwin (INDIA) [/td][td]2011-2018 [/td][td]65 [/td][td]342 [/td][td]25.43 [/td][td]2.84 [/td][td]53.7 [/td][td]26 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]HMRKB Herath (SL) [/td][td]1999-2018 [/td][td]93 [/td][td]433 [/td][td]28.07 [/td][td]2.8 [/td][td]60 [/td][td]34 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]LR Gibbs (WI) [/td][td]1958-1976 [/td][td]79 [/td][td]309 [/td][td]29.09 [/td][td]1.98 [/td][td]87.7 [/td][td]18 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]A Kumble (INDIA) [/td][td]1990-2008 [/td][td]132 [/td][td]619 [/td][td]29.65 [/td][td]2.69 [/td][td]65.9 [/td][td]35 [/td][/tr]
[/table]

 

[Ashraful_Rox]

Fast Bowler - Under 25
Spinner - Under - 28

 

[Square Drive]

For tests , I'll go with for Pace bowlers 300+ wickets with sub 25 average
[table=width: 500, class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Player [/td][td]Span [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Wkts [/td][td]Avg [/td][td]SR [/td][td]5W [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]MD Marshall (WI) [/td][td]1978-1991 [/td][td]81 [/td][td]376 [/td][td]20.94 [/td][td]46.7 [/td][td]22 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]CEL Ambrose (WI) [/td][td]1988-2000 [/td][td]98 [/td][td]405 [/td][td]20.99 [/td][td]54.5 [/td][td]22 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]FS Trueman (ENG) [/td][td]1952-1965 [/td][td]67 [/td][td]307 [/td][td]21.57 [/td][td]49.4 [/td][td]17 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]GD McGrath (AUS) [/td][td]1993-2007 [/td][td]124 [/td][td]563 [/td][td]21.64 [/td][td]51.9 [/td][td]29 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]AA Donald (SA) [/td][td]1992-2002 [/td][td]72 [/td][td]330 [/td][td]22.25 [/td][td]47 [/td][td]20 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ) [/td][td]1973-1990 [/td][td]86 [/td][td]431 [/td][td]22.29 [/td][td]50.8 [/td][td]36 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DW Steyn (SA) [/td][td]2004-2018 [/td][td]88 [/td][td]421 [/td][td]22.64 [/td][td]42 [/td][td]26 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Imran Khan (PAK) [/td][td]1971-1992 [/td][td]88 [/td][td]362 [/td][td]22.81 [/td][td]53.7 [/td][td]23 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SM Pollock (SA) [/td][td]1995-2008 [/td][td]108 [/td][td]421 [/td][td]23.11 [/td][td]57.8 [/td][td]16 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Waqar Younis (PAK) [/td][td]1989-2003 [/td][td]87 [/td][td]373 [/td][td]23.56 [/td][td]43.4 [/td][td]22 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Wasim Akram (PAK) [/td][td]1985-2002 [/td][td]104 [/td][td]414 [/td][td]23.62 [/td][td]54.6 [/td][td]25 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]DK Lillee (AUS) [/td][td]1971-1984 [/td][td]70 [/td][td]355 [/td][td]23.92 [/td][td]52 [/td][td]23 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]CA Walsh (WI) [/td][td]1984-2001 [/td][td]132 [/td][td]519 [/td][td]24.44 [/td][td]57.8 [/td][td]22 [/td][/tr]
[/table]

For Spinners , i'll go with 300+ wickets with sub 30 average
[table=width: 600, class: grid, align: center]
[tr][td]Player [/td][td]Span [/td][td]Mat [/td][td]Wkts [/td][td]Avg [/td][td]Econ [/td][td]SR [/td][td]5W [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]M Muralitharan (ICC/SL) [/td][td]1992-2010 [/td][td]133 [/td][td]800 [/td][td]22.72 [/td][td]2.47 [/td][td]55 [/td][td]67 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]SK Warne (AUS) [/td][td]1992-2007 [/td][td]145 [/td][td]708 [/td][td]25.41 [/td][td]2.65 [/td][td]57.4 [/td][td]37 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]R Ashwin (INDIA) [/td][td]2011-2018 [/td][td]65 [/td][td]342 [/td][td]25.43 [/td][td]2.84 [/td][td]53.7 [/td][td]26 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]HMRKB Herath (SL) [/td][td]1999-2018 [/td][td]93 [/td][td]433 [/td][td]28.07 [/td][td]2.8 [/td][td]60 [/td][td]34 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]LR Gibbs (WI) [/td][td]1958-1976 [/td][td]79 [/td][td]309 [/td][td]29.09 [/td][td]1.98 [/td][td]87.7 [/td][td]18 [/td][/tr]
[tr][td]A Kumble (INDIA) [/td][td]1990-2008 [/td][td]132 [/td][td]619 [/td][td]29.65 [/td][td]2.69 [/td][td]65.9 [/td][td]35 [/td][/tr]
[/table]

This actually seems very reasonable.

Yasir, Abbas, Hasan and possibly Shaheen may be on their way to get there according to this very criteria.

 

[jeetu]

This actually seems very reasonable.

Yasir, Abbas, Hasan and possibly Shaheen may be on their way to get there according to this very criteria.

Yasir Shah should be there given his form. He has 202 wickets @ 28.26. His age could be factor. He will be 33 in couple of months.
Similar case with Shakib. He's currently 205 wickets @ 31.29. He'll be 32 in couple of months.

Mohammad Abbas stats is very close to peak Imran. 61 wickets @16.62 is GOAT level stats so far. If he was in early 20's then he could have matched great W's and Imran. He will be 29 soon , so fingers are crossed that he'll get to 300 wickets.

Shaheen Shah Afridi has just started. In couple of years we'll see where he stands.

 

[PakPhenom]

Setting criteria determining ATG status has to one the stupidest conversations ever. There will never be set criteria that includes all the ATGs n excludes all the mortals. And above all everyone has their own choices. Better we embrace diversity rather stereotyping everything.

 

[Bhaijaan]

What’s an ATG? A player who would be a great player in any era he played. For batsmen things have got much easier over the last many decades with inclusion of protective laws, equipment’s, pitches and shorter formats which have promoted more aggressive strokeplay hence there are so many question marks over great statistical batting greats of this era as we can never be too sure how they’d have fared back in the day.


For bowlers not much, all great fast bowlers of modern era would be terrorising figures for past batsmen, even more given the fitness/endurance standards of modern athletes. You can always point to few quicksters of the past and claim there was pace back in the day too but average wise there are lot many pacy and skilled bowlers today than ever before. Even India has a so called pace battery today.

 

[warcry]

being an ATG requires more than just plain stats.
otherwise Ashwin would be an ATG, which he is not.

otherwise Anderson would not be an ATG, but he is.

Being an ATG requires you to at least have some series defining performances overseas against top ranked opposition along with good stats.

Ashwin is a flop outside India, Sri lanka and West Indies with no series defining performances in England,South Africa, Australia, New Zealand.

Doesnot even have any decent performance vs Pakistan in any format, i fondly remember him bowling darts in CT 17 final. no ATG bowler could bowl as badly as he did 0-70 in 10 overs, effectively ending is ODI career.

Therefore Ashwin is NOT an ATG. merely an india great, no matter what his stats are.

Anderson has excellent stats in the Emirates, with Man of the series award vs India in India and 2010 Ashes in Australia.

that coupled with his performances in England, qualify him as an ATG with 500 Test wickets.

 

[Bhaijaan]

being an ATG requires more than just plain stats.
otherwise Ashwin would be an ATG, which he is not.

otherwise Anderson would not be an ATG, but he is.

Being an ATG requires you to at least have some series defining performances overseas against top ranked opposition along with good stats.

Ashwin is a flop outside India, Sri lanka and West Indies with no series defining performances in England,South Africa, Australia, New Zealand.

Doesnot even have any decent performance vs Pakistan in any format, i fondly remember him bowling darts in CT 17 final. no ATG bowler could bowl as badly as he did 0-70 in 10 overs, effectively ending is ODI career.

Therefore Ashwin is NOT an ATG. merely an india great, no matter what his stats are.

Anderson has excellent stats in the Emirates, with Man of the series award vs India in India and 2010 Ashes in Australia.

that coupled with his performances in England, qualify him as an ATG with 500 Test wickets.

People like you are unnecessarily harsh on Ashwin. Murali has raised expectations from off spinners otherwise they were never thought of so highly other than for holding one end tighft to give the main bowlers some break. Ashwin’s the biggest reason India has been ranked #1 and maintained itnfor so long. He’s done a tremendous job for us.

 

[warcry]

People like you are unnecessarily harsh on Ashwin. Murali has raised expectations from off spinners otherwise they were never thought of so highly other than for holding one end tighft to give the main bowlers some break. Ashwin’s the biggest reason India has been ranked #1 and maintained itnfor so long. He’s done a tremendous job for us.

unnecessarily harsh on ashwin? clearly you have not been on other cricket forums. most indians on other forums use much harsher words for ashwin.

according to many indians, kuldeep would be a much better option, even jadeja than ashwin.
and jadeja is a much better batsmen and fielder.

ashwin is NOT the biggest reason india is ranked no1, Jadeja is a bigger reason, India's batting is a much bigger reason why india is number one. even their fast bowlers have decent performances at home.
he is a home bully and outside india, is outbowled by his opposite number. moeen ali, nathan lyon are better bowlers.

you have some audacity using murali and ashwin in the same paragraph. ashwin is not even the best offspinner post murali, [ Greame Swann]. he is not even the best off-spinner currently active, [nathan lyon]

he is an indian great, not an ATG. hence usage of average and strikerate alone cannot make one an ATG.

 

[KP From India]

Anderson is clearly not an ATG.

 

[Buffet]

Anderson is clearly not an ATG.

Anderson averages,

35 in Aus
33 in Ind
32 in NZ
46 in SL
36 in SA


Only Pakistan and WI are left where averaged below 30 in their den.

 

[KP From India]

If Anderson is an ATG, then Bhajji should also be in the list.
He won us a series in NZ, test match in SA, a match in 2008 series in SL(including Sanga, Jaya, Dilshan etc)
The we also have to say that Kumble was a tier 1 ATG.

 

[warcry]

okay then, there are some logical arguments against grouping anderson as an ATG.
particularly when you put his stats alongside those of dale steyn.

 

[Buffet]

okay then, there are some logical arguments against grouping anderson as an ATG.
particularly when you put his stats alongside those of dale steyn.

Nah, we can forget about Steyn here.

Just in isolation, Can you cite one ATG bowler with record similar to ...


35 in Aus
33 in Ind
32 in NZ
46 in SL
36 in SA

That's top 6 rank in Test cricket right now and he has a bang average record against top 6 in their den.

 

[warcry]

Nah, we can forget about Steyn here.

Just in isolation, Can you cite one ATG bowler with record similar to ...


35 in Aus
33 in Ind
32 in NZ
46 in SL
36 in SA

That's top 6 rank in Test cricket right now and he has a bang average record against top 6 in their den.

i cant argue with those figures. you have made your point.

 

[Ab Fan]

I do believe it is generally harder, particularly for fast bowlers from England to maintain a great average because of the number of test matched they play per year.

It is harder for fast bowlers to really go guns blazing when you have 5 test series vs Australia or India coming up and a 2-3 test series vs other team also stacked up before that.

However, it is quite apparent how Anderson has found it hard whenever asked to operate with Kookaburra Or S.G balls. Hence, he is not an ATG for me.

 

[The Viper]

Nah, we can forget about Steyn here.

Just in isolation, Can you cite one ATG bowler with record similar to ...


35 in Aus
33 in Ind
32 in NZ
46 in SL
36 in SA

That's top 6 rank in Test cricket right now and he has a bang average record against top 6 in their den.

I admire Anderson’s longevity in the test format but those stats are really bad. You would expect him to average under 30 in places like SAF.

 

[Buffet]

I admire Anderson’s longevity in the test format but those stats are really bad. You would expect him to average under 30 in places like SAF.

He is actually a very good bowler in certain conditions and he also learned reverse swing late in his career, but I was simply pointing out his away performances against pretty much all teams to show that he shouldn't be mentioned along side ATG bowlers. Gap is not small that we can have debate on that.

Anderson's record is somewhat similar to Kapil Dev. Dev was fantastic in India. He was very good in Aus. He was gun against great WI team in their den. But he was ordinary everywhere else. Only reason No one consider(may be some Indians do, but talking widely) Kapil as an ATG bowler. He is widely knwon only as an ATG all rounder.

Anderson is surely an Eng's great and fantastic to watch when conditions suits him. Not denying that.

 

[The Viper]

He is actually a very good bowler in certain conditions and he also learned reverse swing late in his career, but I was simply pointing out his away performances against pretty much all teams to show that he shouldn't be mentioned along side ATG bowlers. Gap is not small that we can have debate on that.

Anderson's record is somewhat similar to Kapil Dev. Dev was fantastic in India. He was very good in Aus. He was gun against great WI team in their den. But he was ordinary everywhere else. Only reason No one consider(may be some Indians do, but talking widely) Kapil as an ATG bowler. He is widely knwon only as an ATG all rounder.

Anderson is surely an Eng's great and fantastic to watch when conditions suits him. Not denying that.

Don’t think Indians even rate Kapil as an ATG for his bowling alone.

 

[Mirpur express]

Averages don’t define a bowler’s greatnesses lol *