Ladies and gentlemen. The eChitrol of Apu. Part II.
The evidence is all around you but if you choose to live in denial, you won't be able to see it. Right from the inception of Pakistan, the military has interfered in politics to serve their interests and to control the foreign policy. It all started with General Ayub. From his disgusting treatment of Fatima Jinnah to serving U.S. in the Cold War, he did whatever he could to keep Pakistan Army on top of the food chain. He paved the way for General Zia, who continued to be Washington's puppet for $$$ which not only sparked terrorism in Pakistan but also destabilised the social structure of Afghanistan, and then we wonder why yhe people of Afghanistan hate us.
The military isn't halal in Pakistan, I've never defended their interference in Pakistan's civilian leadership and have been vocal about how it dragged the maturation of Pakistan's democracy back decades. That being said, when the military was in power they ruled the government and hence foreign policy. But what evidence do you have they're still controlling it now, despite now having three civilian governments elected in a row?
Also, Afghanistan destabilized itself the second it became Moscow's little puppet. The only people to blame are Afghans themselves. Not sure why you have a hard on for them, unless and of course................oh. Might you be one of these kabulys?
Furthermore, General Zia launched Nawaz Sharif to do his bidding. Later on, Commando Musharraf, who is too scared to return like Nawaz, continued to be America's puppet by participating in the WOT.
The statement that Pakistan's military shapes Pakistan's foreign policy is not a conspiracy theory; it is an acknowledged fact in international forums and you can find many, many sources that have written on this topic in great detail.
Yeah, let's see who these Pulitzer prize winners are that you're quoting.
I just read this and Taha Siddiqui (a hack) does what you do. Makes correlations off myths and offers zero evidence to back his claims. Talk about setting the bar low.
The only time "military or "army" are mentioned in this piece is in the first paragraph which states "Pakistan’s powerful army, which has historically set Islamabad’s course on international affairs."
This doesn't prove anything. Historically yes, when the military was in power they dictated foreign policy. They haven't been in power for now three successive governments.
By Christine Fair...a known Islamophobe, anti Pakistan bigot in Washington who supports U.S. militarism in the world and openly supported the drone program in Pakistan, despite her self-proclaimed Liberal views. Really? This is what your quoting? But enough about her, let's dissect her arguments. Oh woe me, yet again no evidence, just myths like her boyfriend Taha Siddiqui. You know, it seems to be a trend these days...write it as often as possible and hope people eventually buy into it.
Unless Christine Fair has concrete evidence of the military interfering, this is at best a conspiracy theory no better than "Russia colluded with Trump to rig the election". Cute...but it doesn't stick.
More on Christine Fair from Salon magazine.
Not playing fair: How Christine Fair, defender of U.S. drone program in Pakistan, twists the facts — and may have conflicts of her own
Leading drone defender Christine Fair claims critics are biased, yet is widely accused of her own double standards
https://www.salon.com/2015/11/04/i_...reenwald_and_may_have_con flicts_of_her_own/
Again, offers zero evidence that the military is meddling in our foreign affairs. Who says the military is stopping Pakistan's civilian leadership from giving India access to Afghanistan? Provide me a quote or some piece of evidence, not hearsay. Also, why would any government (civilian or military) allow India access to Afghanistan? We gain very little from that from a geostrategical POV.
Also, the take that CPEC was devised by China to counter India is an absolute load of ********. The southern silk route (today known as CPEC) has been around since at least 250 AD. Relax.
Did you even bother reading the article?
Military leaders advised caution and small steps to achieving sustainable peace with India — advice which Sharif ignored. After several months of futile attempts to court Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi, who pressed hard on Pakistan after his rise to power, Sharif faced an embarrassing situation. He accepted that his strategy had been a failure and allowed the military to devise a new strategy to engage India.
Civilian and military leaders were similarly split over issues of method when it came to tackling terrorist safe havens inside the country. In 2013, the then new government under Sharif was not interested in launching operations inside the country against the Taliban and other extremist actors. The government instead began peace talks with the terrorist outfits despite repeated advice from the Pakistan Army to the contrary.
The Pakistan army pushed the view that terrorist outfits use ‘peace talks’ as a pretence to regroup, develop credibility and then launch attacks again when the government is vulnerable. Months later, when the terrorists continued their attacks on Pakistan and US forces despite the ongoing negotiations with the Pakistani government, Sharif again was sheepish in front of Pakistan’s security establishment and allowed the military to launch an operation.
This doesn't help your argument, quite the contrary. Explain why was Nawaz Sharif against military intervention against terrorist groups? Aren't you the same person who claimed Pakistan cultivated these groups? Surely they must be destroyed then right?
Pakistan's poverty rate has decreased tremendously since the 2000s began. What planet are you living on?
http://povertydata.worldbank.org/poverty/country/PAK
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These are just a handful of the many, many resources that emphasise on how Pakistan's army has shaped the foreign policy of Pakistan, and most of these are from well-reputed international sources.
Yeah, pultizer prize winners Christine Fair and Taha Siddiqui are real "well-reputed international sources".
Of course, it is very convenient for you to simply say that they are fuelled by the anti-Pakistan propaganda, but that doesn't solve or change anything.
No, what I was looking for was actual evidence, not narration. I can write paragraphs of English as well, that doesn't necessarily mean what I'm saying is right or wrong. When you make an accusation, you sort of need to prove it. At best, all I see are a bunch of nobodies talking about Pakistan. Hardly anything to lose sleep over.
The status-quo in J&K will stay put as long as Pakistani military is sponsoring terrorism in J&K as well as encouraging insurgencies.
And your evidence is where? When you have it, feel free to approach the United Nations Security Council and show the world. Infact, make a case for military intervention in Pakistan. I wonder why you haven't thought of that until now. I'll give you a hint..probably because it doesn't exist.
When you place 1 million soldiers on the Line of Control and still can't stop "terrorists" from crossing it we have to come to 1 of 2 logical conclusions:
a. The Indian military is absolutely incompetent
b. The "cross border theory" isn't true
I'll let you decide which one to choose.
Pakistan have played no small part in ensuring that the Kashmiri youth do not acknowledge that J&K is part of India.
Kashmiri youth don't acknowledge it. They regard themselves as a disputed region. Here's Kashmiri students saying it to your face.
The fact is simple...we are not Indian - lol
This dispute is a burden for the country but not for the military.
It will be a burden until India accepts the fact Jammu & Kashmir is disputed territory.
The innocent soldiers die in order for the military elite to get richer and richer.
Oh now you care about soldiers? Spare me your fake remorse...I feel sorry for your soldiers who are committing suicide on mass, get rocks thrown upon them and have no food to eat.
The Kashmir dispute is the a massive source of income for the military elite, and it is not in their interests to withdraw.
Cool story, drop me some evidence when your recharge your brain.
It is not a theory it is a fact. Pakistan Army is guilty of inexcusable human right violations and atrocities in East Pakistan. Thousands of civilians were killed and thousands of women were raped during the Liberation War. Again, denial is easy. You can call it a "conspiracy theory" with your ISPR screened rubbish.
I'd highly suggest you read "The Myth of 3 Million" by Dr. M. Abdul Mu’min Chowdhury.
Here's the online version.
http://www.storyofbangladesh.com/ebooks/myth-of-3-million.html
For all these "human rights violations", I'm surprised why Bangladesh has never approached the International Criminal Court. Furthermore, what's also surprising is how nobody in the world commemorates this so-called "genocide"...despite Rwandan, Cambodian and Bosnian genocides being significantly smaller. I guess ISPR must be very powerful...controls the ICC and the United Nations Office on Genocide Prevention.
Again, calling a conspiracy theory is the easiest thing to do.
I'm giving you a taste of your own medicine. Blaming your pregnancy on the military is also an easy thing to do. Unless you have evidence, you don't really have much of an argument. You do have a theory, which is why I call it a conspiracy theory.
If someone presents you with an inconvenient fact, call it a conspiracy theory and get away with it.
A fact is usually backed up with evidence, something you have failed to provide on a number of occasions. It appears you think too highly of yourself Apu. Remember, you're a nobody...you appear to live online and your opinions don't mean jack. Come back to me when you have FACTS.
Ending the Kashmir dispute certainly helps Pakistan immensely, but it doesn't help the military elite who determine the foreign policy.
Losing Kashmir = losing control of Pakistan's rivers. How does that help Pakistan? Also, you still haven't proven that the military is involved in dictating our foreign affairs. Quite the contrary, your own source actually proves the military was forced to step in after your Nawaz Sharif blundered.
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The get richer and richer the longer this dispute drags on.
Sounds a lot like the current Indian economy.
Income inequality gets worse; India's top 1% bag 73% of the country's wealth, says Oxfam
https://www.businesstoday.in/curren...me-inequality-richests-poor/story/268541.html
This is what you want us to model ourselves after?
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Do you actually think that Pakistan Army is not withdrawing its troops because India does not accept that it is a disputed territory, and do you actually think that if India does so, Pakistan Army would immediately withdraw its troops? Who are you trying to fool?
The only fool here is you. I'm trying to make a point here that UNSCR47 is a document that India likes to quote in regards to Pakistan withdrawing its troops. On the contrary, it conveniently forgets the fact that it also states J&K is disputed territory.
If India doesn't want to abide by the fact UNSCR47 states J&K is disputed territory, why should Pakistan abide by it? This isn't a one-way street. Either all parties abide by it, or no party does.
Get it yet?
I actually wanted to address this point but I over-estimated your intelligence. I didn't take you as someone who would fall for such an absurd notion.
What is exactly absurd about this notion? This is a country that actually enacted a map law, that forces mapmakers to show Gilgit-Baltistan and Azad Jammu & Kashmir as part of India. If they're that serious about maps, it's a forgone conclusion what they intend to do once Pakistan withdraws. You'd have to be a ***** to think otherwise...and that you are.
Cartographers beware: India warns of $15 million fine for maps it doesn't like.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...nt-like/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.3d819bdfbf40
Let’s start with a basic fact: India claims much more land than it controls.Thus, any map of India and its neighbors makes an inherently political statement based on how it depicts their borders. The issue is particularly thorny because the border disputes are with India’s great rivals: Pakistan and China.
This time, the troublemaker is CEO of Facebook, Mark Zuckerberg and latest China’s CCTV channel footage, that may spark a fresh controversy between India and Pakistan. Zuckerberg shared a post about the Facebook’s internet.org that showed India’s map without Kashmir.
The Economist magazine has accused India of hostile censorship after officials prevented the distribution of the latest edition, because of a map showing the disputed borders of Kashmir.
Customs officers ordered that 28,000 copies of the news weekly should have stickers manually placed over a diagram showing how control of Kashmir, a tiny Himalayan region, is split between India, Pakistan and China.
However, it was my fault. What else do I expect from someone who thinks that if a truck driver runs over a woman who crosses the fence, he cannot be blamed for not being alert enough.
When you willingly walk onto an active bus way, you're going to get hit. This is like blaming a car driver who suddenly sees a kid run across the road to catch a ball, and gets hit by the car. You're talking as if the bus driver deliberately ran her over. You seriously need to consider seeing a psychiatrist because you don't seem normal at all.
It is not a video game that if Pakistani Army withdraws its troops, India would simply walk into AJK and claim territory.
Why wouldn't they? If they claim J&K is an "integral part of India", then why shouldn't Pakistan beware of that?
Do you realise the international pressure India would face if they try to do something like that?
You're talking about a country that thinks airplanes were invented 50,000 years ago and where women are raped in broad daylight. It's pretty obvious they don't care about international opinion.
This funny notion is the weakest justification I have ever heard for why Pakistan should not withdraw its troops from J&K.
I don't really care what you think Apu.
Feel free to respond.
. I always question any Indian source anyway so dismiss these claims like always. Pak youth certainly don't want to be where Nawaz is at the moment that much is certain
I can tell you that Pak youth are very happy compared to those in many countries. I don't expect India to like our current PM hence all this propaganda. No the airspace to India is not opening after we rejected their latest request today
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