Nazi Germany discussion thread

[akheR]

Blonde German housewife Erna Petri was returning home after a shopping trip in town when something caught her eye: six small, nearly naked boys huddled in terror by the side of the country road.

Married to a senior SS officer, the 23-year-old knew instantly who they were.

They must be the Jews she’d heard about — the ones who’d escaped from a train taking them to an extermination camp.

But she was a mother herself, with two children of her own. So she humanely took the starving, whimpering youngsters home, calmed them down and gave them food to eat.

Then she led the six of them — the youngest aged six, the oldest 12 — into the woods, lined them up on the edge of a pit and shot them methodically one by one with a pistol in the back of the neck.

This schizophrenic combination of warm-hearted mother one minute and cold-blooded killer the next is an enigma and one that — now revealed in a new book based on years of trawling through remote archives — puts a crueller than ever spin on the Third Reich.

Because Erna was by no means an aberration. In a book she tellingly calls ‘Hitler’s Furies’, Holocaust historian Professor Wendy Lower has unearthed the complicity of tens of thousands of German women — many more than previously imagined — in the sort of mass, monstrous, murderous activities that we would like to think the so-called gentler sex were incapable of.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...he-Nazi-women-bit-evil-men.html#ixzz2ifV5o5HC

 

[akheR]

In the Ukraine, 22-year-old secretary Johanna Altvater played an even more prominent role in a massacre while working for regional commissar Wilhelm Westerheide.

During the liquidation of a Jewish ghetto, Fräulein Hanna, as she was known, was seen in her riding breeches prodding men, women and children into a truck ‘like a cattle herder’.

She marched into a building being used as a makeshift hospital and through the children’s ward, eyeing each bed-ridden child. Then she stopped, picked one up, took it to the balcony and threw the child to the pavement three floors below. She did the same with other children. Some died, and even those who survived were seriously injured.

Her speciality — or, as one survivor put it, her ‘nasty habit’ — was killing children. One observer noted that Altvater often lured children with sweets. When they came to her and opened their mouths, she shot them in the mouth with the small pistol that she kept at her side.
On another occasion, she beckoned a toddler over, then grabbed him tightly by the legs and slammed his head against a wall as if she were banging the dust out of a mat.

She threw the lifeless child at the feet of his father, who later testified: ‘Such sadism from a woman I have never seen. I will never forget this.’

 

[Markhor]

Interesting stuff.

Another Nazi woman, Magda Goebbels, wife of Josef and considered by Hitler as the embodiment of a Nazi woman, was hideous. According to Rochus Mesch, the last survivor of the bunker, she killed all of their children as she did not want them 'to grow up in a world without Nazism'. The story goes that after she drugged them with morphine and crushed cyanide pills in their mouths, she calmly went back to her table to play cards !

 

[Supporter of Pak legends]

Absolutely harrowing articles provided above and all the more astonishing and sickening given that they were committed by women - who are portrayed across as being as naturally maternal and caring towards children.

 

[Stewie]

Goebbels wife was insane. I have read and heard so much about her last few days in the bunker and how she killed her children and then killed herself.

 

[Supporter of Pak legends]

The tales provide above are the variety ones expects to encounter maybe only in a spine-chilling, horror novel; it simply proves that for all their development and intelligence, humans can sometimes be the most vilest creatures of all.

 

[leatherface58]

Re: 'The Nazi women who were every bit as evil as the men'

Female killers have over the years matched and sometimes even surpassed men in terms of cruelty. Serial killers Dahmer, Bundy, Gacy and Ed Gein might have taken all the spotlight. But don't forget female serial killers like Countess Elizabeth Bathory who bathed in the blood of her victims to remain young and of course Delphine LaLaurie who makes the slave treatment in Django Unchained seem almost humane.

 

[saadibaba]

Psychopaths don't follow traditional definitions of gender characteristics.

 

[leatherface58]

Re: 'The Nazi women who were every bit as evil as the men'

Ya but it's a special kind of evil that enjoys harming toddlers. Woman must be hopefully suffering for eternity in the darkest pits of hell.

 

[Major]

it is said that females are more of a bully then males. So it shouldn't be surprising to see this kind of stuff from women.

 

[mithun_minhas]

Is that a man or woman?

And Hitler thought this was beautiful and tried to populate the entire world with these replicas.

 

[akheR]

Is that a man or woman?

And Hitler thought this was beautiful and tried to populate the entire world with these replicas.

Irma "the Hyena of Auschwitz" Grese looked very very decent, executed at 22

...Grese’s first job was being in charge of Krema Three, a large crematorium made for the cremation of prisoner bodies. She not only carried a sidearm like the rest of the guards, but a cellophane whip (against the rules) to whip exhausted prisoners. Some of her many jobs were announced at trial to the court. They were choosing who would enter the gas chambers and setting the dogs loose on tied up prisoners as punishment. She was not only known for the beating of prisoners daily, using her prohibited cellophane whip as well as every other tool she owned in the camp, but she also ordered the skinning of three prisoners. Grese was a sadist to the highest degree, performing experiments on fully conscious prisoners and smiling while doing so. It is even said for her to have been a sexual sadist.

...Grese did not by any means, suffer a quick death there. The army hangman refused to hang her so they had to call in a British civilian hangman. This hangman miscalculated the drop, causing her neck to not snap. She fought the rope for three minutes until she finally suffocated. Her body was removed twenty minutes later for the hanging of British hangman, Albert Pierrepoint.

 

[saadibaba]

Just waiting before this thread in a predominantly male oriented forum turns into a safe place to express ones underlying feelings about women in general. E.g. I see the "women are more evil than men" argument already gaining strength.

 

[The Dark Corner]

Sigh. The lengths that groupies go to...

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

If anything it's a good example of how easy it is for people to become de-sensitised through systematic brain washing. You only have to see how Islamic zealots can be persuaded that it's right to shoot children in the head, or Buddhist priests to beat children to death in Burma.

Why would women be less susceptible to it than men? Most of the worst mass atrocities have been committed in the name of upholding one ideology or another.

 

[Supporter of Pak legends]

If anything it's a good example of how easy it is for people to become de-sensitised through systematic brain washing. You only have to see how Islamic zealots can be persuaded that it's right to shoot children in the head, or Buddhist priests to beat children to death in Burma.

Why would women be less susceptible to it than men? Most of the worst mass atrocities have been committed in the name of upholding one ideology or another.

Excellent post. Some, including myself at first glance (because of the perception that mothers have a maternal instinct and the stereotype being that they have an in-built sense of caring for children, whether it is their own or others), may be forgetting the sheer, unadulterated form of evil Hitler preached within his dictatorship, in the form of extensive propaganda.

However, I still believe that this is simply no excuse for the sheer brutality of the acts, especially the first story: it is extremely difficult to come to terms that a mother of two could manipulate children in such a way after originally leading them to believe that she was helping them. Disgusting.

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Love how the DailyMail snap up any bit of news that show women in a bad light. Extreme brainwashing, nationalistic fervour and characterising other people as sub human can lead to people of all genders committing evil acts.

 

[endymion248]

Interesting stuff.

Another Nazi woman, Magda Goebbels, wife of Josef and considered by Hitler as the embodiment of a Nazi woman, was hideous. According to Rochus Mesch, the last survivor of the bunker, she killed all of their children as she did not want them 'to grow up in a world without Nazism'. The story goes that after she drugged them with morphine and crushed cyanide pills in their mouths, she calmly went back to her table to play cards !

Her last words?

Nunc Medea Sum.

 

[Yossarian]

Whilst the world should never forget the atrocities committed by the Nazi's, it's a sad fact that a much more recent tragedy, one that was, in relative terms, far more brutal and evil than even the Nazi's, and that involved over 70% of the minority community (around 800,000 out of around 1.1 million), and around 20% of the population (almost 1.4 million people) of the country as a whole, being massacred in just 100 days. The atrocity concerned is the Rwandan Genocide involving the massacre of the Tutsi's by the Hutu's.

Is it perhaps it occurred in Africa and not Europe?

What is even more disgusting is the role played by other governments and officials in the massacre, including Western govts and officials.

businessmen close to General Habyarimana imported 581,000 machetes from China[23] for Hutu use in killing Tutsi, because machetes were cheaper than guns

In a 2000 news story, The Guardian reported, "The former Secretary-General of the United Nations, Boutros Boutros-Ghali, played a leading role in supplying weapons to the Hutu regime which carried out a campaign of genocide against the Tutsis in Rwanda in 1994. As Minister of Foreign Affairs in Egypt, Boutros-Ghali facilitated an arms deal in 1990, which was to result in $26 million (£18m) of mortar bombs, rocket launchers, grenades and ammunition being flown from Cairo to Rwanda. The arms were used by Hutus in attacks which led to up to a million deaths.

Tutsi women were also targeted with the intent of destroying their reproductive capabilities. Sexual mutilation sometimes occurred after the rape and included mutilation of the vagina with machetes, knives, sharpened sticks, boiling water, and acid.[72] The genocidaires also held women as sex slaves for weeks and sexually mutilated them with sharp sticks or gun barrels.[69] More cases, such as cutting open the womb to kill the unborn child and the pregnant mother, occurred.[72] These acts coincided with the ambition of the Interahamwe and of other Hutu extremists to fully eradicate the Tutsi population.[71] Men were seldom the victims of war rape,[34] but sexual violence against men included mutilation of the genitals, then displayed as trophies in public.[34] Disabling the reproductive capabilities of the women would prevent future generations of the Tutsi population.[69] The Hutu extremists aimed to not only just kill the living Tutsis but also to ultimately destroy the future of the Tutsi population; this reinforced the idea of ethnic cleansing.

A French military co-operation team was openly acknowledged to be in Rwanda, and was thought to have included forty seven people. These people were attached to key units in the army and in the gendarmerie as "advisers" or "technical assistants".
A list of Rwandan officers prepared by Rwandan army officers within the Rwandan Ministry of Defense and dated March 5, 1994, shows three French nationals working as "technical assistants" in the reconnaissance battalion.
In the Rwandan air corps, there were two French flying instructors, a navigator, an air traffic controller, and a mechanic.
In the para-commandos, under Colonel Aloys Ntabakuze,[99] there were four French nationals including a major in the French Army

There were no U.S. troops officially in Rwanda at the onset of the genocide. A National Security Archive report points out five ways in which decisions made by the U.S. government contributed to the slow U.S. and worldwide response to the genocide:

The U.S. lobbied the U.N. for a total withdrawal of U.N. (UNAMIR) forces in Rwanda in April 1994;
Secretary of State Warren Christopher did not authorize officials to use the term "genocide" until May 21, and even then, U.S. officials waited another three weeks before using the term in public;
Bureaucratic infighting slowed the U.S. response to the genocide in general;
The U.S. refused to jam extremist radio broadcasts inciting the killing, citing costs and concern with international law;
U.S. officials knew exactly who was leading the genocide, and actually spoke with those leaders to urge an end to the violence but did not follow up with concrete action.[92]

Intelligence reports indicate that President Clinton and his cabinet were aware before the height of the massacre that a "final solution to eliminate all Tutsis" was planned

Source: wiki

One last interesting fact:

Religion

The Roman Catholic Church affirms that genocide took place but states that those who took part in it did so without the permission of the Church.[40] The Marian apparition, known as Our Lady of Kibeho, was seen in 1982. The Virgin Mary was said to have shown three visionaries a future blood bath and called for prayer and repentance. In 2001 the diocese approved the vision as "worthy of belief". Reports indicate the percentage of Muslims in Rwanda has doubled since the genocide due to Muslim sheltering and protection of Tutsis and Hutus during the genocide.

 

[Love Pakistan]

Re: 'The Nazi women who were every bit as evil as the men'

Horrific and sickening.

 

[endymion248]

Just waiting before this thread in a predominantly male oriented forum turns into a safe place to express ones underlying feelings about women in general. E.g. I see the "women are more evil than men" argument [\quote]

They are a whole other category of evil.

On the M.Goebbels topic, I think that it shows courage and a twisted kind of love to do what she did and maintain self control after what she did. Although I doubt her pragmatic husband agreed with the fanatism. Except, of course, that it is morally wrong.

 

[from_da_lost_dim3nsion]

If anything it's a good example of how easy it is for people to become de-sensitised through systematic brain washing. You only have to see how Islamic zealots can be persuaded that it's right to shoot children in the head, or Buddhist priests to beat children to death in Burma.

Why would women be less susceptible to it than men? Most of the worst mass atrocities have been committed in the name of upholding one ideology or another.

This. It gets pretty easy once you dehumanize someone. Wars and violent racism get their support through these methods.

 

[leatherface58]

Re: 'The Nazi women who were every bit as evil as the men'

Just waiting before this thread in a predominantly male oriented forum turns into a safe place to express ones underlying feelings about women in general. E.g. I see the "women are more evil than men" argument already gaining strength.

Oh come on. I am not a misogynist. I just said when it comes to evil, gender doesn't matter. I didn't say women are more evil than men or something like that. There is blood on both genders' hands.

BTW anyone heard of Gertrude Baniszewski? Felt ill for a week after reading her antics.

 

[Red Devil]

Oh come on. I am not a misogynist. I just said when it comes to evil, gender doesn't matter. I didn't say women are more evil than men or something like that. There is blood on both genders' hands.

BTW anyone heard of Gertrude Baniszewski? Felt ill for a week after reading her antics.

Sickening story

And she was paroled

 

[London_Lahori]

Insane... looking in the mirror each day is what most probably caused her to bully children.

 

[Robert]

Whilst the world should never forget the atrocities committed by the Nazi's, it's a sad fact that a much more recent tragedy, one that was, in relative terms, far more brutal and evil than even the Nazi's, and that involved over 70% of the minority community (around 800,000 out of around 1.1 million), and around 20% of the population (almost 1.4 million people) of the country as a whole, being massacred in just 100 days. The atrocity concerned is the Rwandan Genocide involving the massacre of the Tutsi's by the Hutu's.

Is it perhaps it occurred in Africa and not Europe?

I don't think it reflects well on us to create a genocide league table, Javvers, or to blame everything on the evil Europeans when there have been genocides perpetrated by the Ottomans, Arabs, Rwandans, Cambodians, Chinese and Japanese.

 

[Markhor]

Whilst the world should never forget the atrocities committed by the Nazi's, it's a sad fact that a much more recent tragedy, one that was, in relative terms, far more brutal and evil than even the Nazi's, and that involved over 70% of the minority community (around 800,000 out of around 1.1 million), and around 20% of the population (almost 1.4 million people) of the country as a whole, being massacred in just 100 days. The atrocity concerned is the Rwandan Genocide involving the massacre of the Tutsi's by the Hutu's.

Is it perhaps it occurred in Africa and not Europe?

Indeed, Rwanda is a horrific case, as was the Congo - 'Africa's World War'. I cannot understand how human beings can descend to such medieval levels of barbarity. Women suffered the most awful sexual abuse in those conflicts ranging from private parts being set on fire to militiamen forcing relatives to violate each other. Or the Bosnian genocide, who knew the concentration camps would make a return to mainland Europe ?

However the Nazi genocide of Jews has become so historically significant because not only was the world plunged into war, but also this was a major western industrialised country carrying out a barbaric, state-sponsored genocide of a minority people.

People often forget that Germany's Jews had integrated quite well into the professions and arts throughout the 19th Century after emancipation. Unfortunately the Nazis were so good at exploiting old anti-semitic prejudices and were the first actually to use modern propaganda methods.

With a growing economy after 1933, and conquest abroad, many bought into the Hitler saviour complex. Others merely showed apathy, either too intimidated or just nonplussed at the persecution of their fellow citizens, relieved it was not them being sent off to the concentration camps. What also people may find shocking about the Holocaust is the sheer level of plunder and materialistic greed. Jewish businesses and shops were ransacked and looted when shut down by the Nazis, and also the petty neighbourhood point scoring. Often it was ordinary German citizens reporting 'suspicious Jewish neighbours' to the Gestapo, when actually they were reporting neighbours who may have been business rivals for example or simply people they held a grudge against.

Its a fascinating subject to read into the major Nazi personalities of the time, as the Nazi government was so chaotic, with Hitler showing little interest in day-to-day affairs.

 

[Yossarian]

I don't think it reflects well on us to create a genocide league table, Javvers, or to blame everything on the evil Europeans when there have been genocides perpetrated by the Ottomans, Arabs, Rwandans, Cambodians, Chinese and Japanese.

You missed the point. It's not about league tables. It's about reminding the world that there have been, in relative terms, even far greater genocides in the last few decades than those perpetrated by the Nazi's and these too should not be forgotten.

Whilst the Nazi's atrocities were primarily carried out by the military, police and other security forces, in the Rwandan Genocide civillians, including women, were killing their friends and neighbours, even, according to many reports, their own wives or husbands and children because one of the parents had a Tutsi background or sympathising with the plight of the Tutsis.

“For many years I couldn’t believe my own mother (Virginia Nyiramanenge) was actively involved in the killing of my father and brothers. It was as if I was in a dream,” says Albert Nsengimana, who lost all his eight siblings and father at the hands of his own militia mother.

“I also survived her by the skin of the teeth because I escaped from the killers she had consciously led me to,” recalls Nsengimana, who was only seven at the time.


http://www.newtimes.co.rw/news/views/article_print.php?14676&a=42820&icon=Print

Seven years ago, during the Rwandan genocide, Nyiraba Hizi, a Hutu, armed herself with a nail-studded club and battered to death four of the children of one of her Tutsi neighbours.

Hizi was just 17 when she followed her father to seek out and butcher their Tutsi neighbours. During a night of frenzied killing, Hizi and her father joined a mob of Hutu relatives running from door to door demanding the surrender of children born to Tutsi fathers.

"We killed seven children that night, but spared one baby who was on his mother's back," she said. "We told them to lie down and we hit them again and again. It was like killing snakes."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...8160/We-killed-seven-children-that-night.html

It’s less well-known that women - traditionally seen as victims in Africa’s conflicts - were involved at all levels: planning, organising, identifying targets, even killing with their own hands.
....

Although most of the killing was carried out by men, women played a significant role in the murder of other women and of children.

http://www.odihpn.org/humanitarian-exchange-magazine/issue-04/women-killers-in-rwanda

 

[James]

Indeed, Rwanda is a horrific case, as was the Congo - 'Africa's World War'. I cannot understand how human beings can descend to such medieval levels of barbarity. Women suffered the most awful sexual abuse in those conflicts ranging from private parts being set on fire to militiamen forcing relatives to violate each other. Or the Bosnian genocide, who knew the concentration camps would make a return to mainland Europe ?

However the Nazi genocide of Jews has become so historically significant because not only was the world plunged into war, but also this was a major western industrialised country carrying out a barbaric, state-sponsored genocide of a minority people.

People often forget that Germany's Jews had integrated quite well into the professions and arts throughout the 19th Century after emancipation. Unfortunately the Nazis were so good at exploiting old anti-semitic prejudices and were the first actually to use modern propaganda methods.

With a growing economy after 1933, and conquest abroad, many bought into the Hitler saviour complex. Others merely showed apathy, either too intimidated or just nonplussed at the persecution of their fellow citizens, relieved it was not them being sent off to the concentration camps. What also people may find shocking about the Holocaust is the sheer level of plunder and materialistic greed. Jewish businesses and shops were ransacked and looted when shut down by the Nazis, and also the petty neighbourhood point scoring. Often it was ordinary German citizens reporting 'suspicious Jewish neighbours' to the Gestapo, when actually they were reporting neighbours who may have been business rivals for example or simply people they held a grudge against.

Its a fascinating subject to read into the major Nazi personalities of the time, as the Nazi government was so chaotic, with Hitler showing little interest in day-to-day affairs.

Informative stuff, thanks.

Personally I don't see why some people are always trying to 'compare' genocides. It seems an odd pastime. However I will trust George Galloway in his view that the Holocaust is the number one human crime in history. He got a call from a guy who was trying to compare the state of Israel to Nazi Germany, and even a pro-Palestine campaigner like Galloway was quick to nail that falsehood and point out just how extreme the Nazis were.

Another interesting debate could be around Hitler's active role in the Final Solution. Certainly if you watch the BBC film Conspiracy, it appears that it was the other top Nazis who were pulling the strings.

 

[Markhor]

Informative stuff, thanks.

Personally I don't see why some people are always trying to 'compare' genocides. It seems an odd pastime. However I will trust George Galloway in his view that the Holocaust is the number one human crime in history. He got a call from a guy who was trying to compare the state of Israel to Nazi Germany, and even a pro-Palestine campaigner like Galloway was quick to nail that falsehood and point out just how extreme the Nazis were.

Another interesting debate could be around Hitler's active role in the Final Solution. Certainly if you watch the BBC film Conspiracy, it appears that it was the other top Nazis who were pulling the strings.

Hitler was a grand visionary, but certainly not a details man - that was to be worked out by other Nazi officials whilst he lounged around at his Berteschgaden estate.

He encouraged institutional social Darwinism, you had to 'work your way towards the Fuhrer' and so competition between Nazi officials were fierce. Of course the best way to win Hitler's heart was an anti-Semitic decree or idea, and so whilst Hitler certainly approved of elimination - his role in the day-to-day implementation of the Holocaust is questionable.

 

[Yossarian]

Personally I don't see why some people are always trying to 'compare' genocides. .

It's not about 'comparing' genocides. It's pointing out that whilst the Nazi atrocities, which took place around 70 years ago, should not be forgotten, for many, the whole focus appears to be on these whilst virtually ignoring those like the Rwandan Genocide, which was carried out less than 20 years ago.

As for women carrying out atrocities and murder, it's worth pointing out that whilst there were many Nazi women who did these evil deeds, the participation of women carrying out similar atrocities in Rwanda was on a far grander scale and far more systematic.

Whilst, rightly so, the Nazi brutality and attempted elimination of the Jews, Gypsies and other minorities is taught at school level in most Western countries, there is hardly any mention of more recent attempts at genocide such as the Rwandan Genocide.

In contrast to the Nazi crimes, occuring 70 years ago, how many of the younger generation is aware of Rwanda, Bosnia (Srebrenica) less than 20 years ago or the Khmer Rouge/Cambodia just over 30 years ago?

 

[Robert]

It's not about 'comparing' genocides. It's pointing out that whilst the Nazi atrocities, which took place around 70 years ago, should not be forgotten, for many, the whole focus appears to be on these whilst virtually ignoring those like the Rwandan Genocide, which was carried out less than 20 years ago.

As for women carrying out atrocities and murder, it's worth pointing out that whilst there were many Nazi women who did these evil deeds, the participation of women carrying out similar atrocities in Rwanda was on a far grander scale and far more systematic.

Whilst, rightly so, the Nazi brutality and attempted elimination of the Jews, Gypsies and other minorities is taught at school level in most Western countries, there is hardly any mention of more recent attempts at genocide such as the Rwandan Genocide.

In contrast to the Nazi crimes, occuring 70 years ago, how many of the younger generation is aware of Rwanda, Bosnia (Srebrenica) less than 20 years ago or the Khmer Rouge/Cambodia just over 30 years ago?

Reads like you've done a comparison right there Javvers!

I think the Holocaust is unique in Western history as it took place on our doorstep in the background of the greatest ever human conflict, so there are more stories told. My wife still has clients with extermination camp tattoos.

Also there are no Rwandan Hollywood moguls IIRC to tell their story, though there was a film called The Killing Fields about the Kymer Rouge genocide a while ago.

 

[UmarAkmals-fan]

here we go .another holocaust story .in school days ur history books r full of the holocaust and the six million jews ..u turn on the tv its on the news . u turn on history channel theres some old lady telling how her lover was gased in hitlers torture chambers .u want to watch some good Hollywood movie on the week end and search which movie would be the best .4 movies to choose from and 3 are about the holocaust ..u go to the library and search for some good books to read ..every 3rd book is about the holocaust ....

no offence to the ppl who died in the holocaust but iam tired of media who make it look like jews were the only humans who died in WW2 ..20 million Armenians were slaughtered yet u hardly hear about them

Zionists have been using the holocaust to win sympathy amongst powerful western governments and ppl ..that's why u see no matter how much crimes Israel commits they r always shown as the victims

holocaust was a terrible thing to happen but now its used as a propaganda tool

 

[DeadlyVenom]

Well said UAF. How dare the world remember one of the worst crimes in its recent history?

Also where did you get the 20million number from?

 

[Markhor]

There were not even 2 million Armenians killed in the Armenian Genocide let alone 20 million. And that didn't even take place during WW2, but in 1915.

 

[UmarAkmals-fan]

Well said UAF. How dare the world remember one of the worst crimes in its recent history?

Also where did you get the 20million number from?

sorry I got the numbers wrong about the Armenian holocaust ..some places it says 1.5 million and some say 2 million ..(honest mistake )

iam not against remembering the poor jews who were slaughtered because of there religion ..iam against the powerful Zionist lobby using it for there own benefit ...they have brainwashed the world so much that when every anyone talks about WW2 the first thing that comes to ur mind is the 6 million jews .....they make it look like the worst genocide in the 20th century is the jewish holocaust ..which is not

stalin killed 7 million Ukrainian christens which most ppl done even know about

http://www.ukemonde.com/genocide/margolisholocaust.html


Mao Ze-Dong of china killed 23 million

hitler killed 12 million - 6 million jews and 6 million non jews

and theres many more genocides which most ppl don't know about because history book writers Hollywood and majority of other media don't think its necessary to let the world know about these poor ppl

 

[Yossarian]

Reads like you've done a comparison right there Javvers!

The comparison was not to ignore or somehow understate the evils committed by some Nazi women, but to simply point out that, in relative terms based upon the population of the country and the number of victims, Rwandan Hutu women participated to a far larger extent in directly killing and mutilating Tutsi women and children, even those from amongst their own families, neighbours and friends, including their own children if they had been fathered by their Tutsi husband.

Just as there have numerous studies regarding the actions and attitudes of German civilians whilst the Nazi's were carrying out their crimes againt the jews and Gypsies, there does'nt appear to have been many studies done as to how such large numbers of normal, peaceful, loving Hutu women could be brainwashed into carrying out these horrendous crimes.

I think the Holocaust is unique in Western history as it took place on our doorstep in the background of the greatest ever human conflict, so there are more stories told. My wife still has clients with extermination camp tattoos.

And no one should deny that fact or the lessons we should learn from it so as to avoid ourselves and our future generations carrying out similar atrocities.

Also there are no Rwandan Hollywood moguls IIRC to tell their story, though there was a film called The Killing Fields about the Kymer Rouge genocide a while ago.

And that I wholeheartedly agree with. Add to that is the undeniable fact that, especially in the West, there is an element of guilt regarding the failure to stop the Nazi's far earlier in terms of planning and preparing the genocide.

It should not be forgotten that the Nazi's had started to vilify and denigrate the Jewish people a long time before the start of WW2, and this was well known outside Germany. Just as the Rwandan govt, had started doing long before the killings started, and many Western countries, including the USA and France, were not only aware of these preparations and intentions, aware of the planning taking place, but also the failure to do anything until hundreds of thousands had already been murdered.

Intelligence reports indicate that President Clinton and his cabinet were aware before the height of the massacre that a "final solution to eliminate all Tutsis" was planned

U.S. officials knew exactly who was leading the genocide, and actually spoke with those leaders to urge an end to the violence but did not follow up with concrete action.

The U.S. refused to jam extremist radio broadcasts inciting the killing, citing costs and concern with international law;

source: wiki

So if are to learn lessons for the future so that the same evils do get repeated, they should not only be learned from what the Nazi's did, but how atrocities such as the Rwanda Genocide, Khmer Rouge/Cambodia and Bosnia (Srebrenica) could take place whilst the world watched and did nothing.

 

[Major]

this thread made me watch the movie albert pierrepoint: the last hangman. Read his name in the irma greece post above

 

[Pak_Jazba]

Umm. A bit off-topic but is there any movie which depicts these Nazi atrocities?

 

[Major]

Umm. A bit off-topic but is there any movie which depicts these Nazi atrocities?

Schindler's list. A Great movie, based on a true story

 

[endymion248]

In the downfall, you can see the Goebels story.

 

[KB]

Hitler was a grand visionary, but certainly not a details man - that was to be worked out by other Nazi officials whilst he lounged around at his Berteschgaden estate.

He encouraged institutional social Darwinism, you had to 'work your way towards the Fuhrer' and so competition between Nazi officials were fierce. Of course the best way to win Hitler's heart was an anti-Semitic decree or idea, and so whilst Hitler certainly approved of elimination - his role in the day-to-day implementation of the Holocaust is questionable.

Well in the 1980s debates as to how strong or weak a dictator Hitler was and his ultimate role in the Holocaust were very polarised between structuralists and intentionalists.

For structuralists, like Hans Mommsen and Martin Broszart, Hitler was really a weak dictator averse to systematic work and no administrator. As a result decision making was chaotic with competing and overlapping centres of power ('polycratic') with Hitler far from leading, being swept along by chaos.

For intentionalists, such as Andreas Hillgruber and Klaus Hildebrand, Hitler was a strong dictator with decision making inspired by his personal whims. They question the extent of 'institutional anarchy' as advanced by the structuralists. The policies pursued by the Nazis including the extermination of Jews can only be explained with reference to Hitler's intentions.

Ian Kershaw, the most famous of Hitler's biographers took both views seriously. Ian Kershaw's 'working towards the Fuhrer' concept along with his use of Max Weber's idea of 'charismatic leadership' attempted to synthesise the views.

On one hand Hitler's charismatic authority and the perception of his super-human powers shaped policy. 'Hitler's order' however interpreted was the only final authority.

Yet on the other hand in Kershaw's words,

"He didn't need to command everything. People interpret 'getting rid of the Jews' in different ways, and cumulatively that then pushes along the dynamic of the persecution without Hitler having to say 'do this, do that, do the other'"

 

[James]

<b>Germany takes Italy to UN court over Nazi-era compensation claims</b>

Germany has filed a case against Italy at the UN's highest court over attempts within Italy to claim compensation for Nazi-era war crimes.
In a submission to the International Court of Justice (ICJ), Germany says Italy continues to allow cases in its domestic courts despite a 2012 ruling that such claims were inadmissible.
It says that, since that ruling, over 25 new cases have been filed in Italy.
In some of those, the courts have ruled that Germany should pay compensation.
Berlin says it is bringing the complaint now because of two ongoing cases that could see properties in Rome owned by the German state seized to finance compensation payments.
A court in Italy says it will decide by 25 May whether to force the sale of certain buildings, some of which house German cultural, historical, and educational institutions.
The dispute dates back to 2008, when Italy's highest court ruled that Germany should pay around €1m (£840,000) to relatives of nine people who were among 203 killed by German forces in Tuscany in 1944.
Germany argues it has already paid out billions of euros to countries impacted by World War II since the conflict ended in 1945.
Its filing cites a part of the 2012 ruling that says that, by allowing the claims in its courts, Italy had "violated its obligation to respect the immunity which the Federal Republic of Germany enjoys under international law".
It can take years for the ICJ to issue rulings, but Germany has asked the court to take measures to stop Italy auctioning off any property while its broader case is being considered.
The ICJ, based in The Hague, the Netherlands, is the principal judicial body of the UN, with one of its primary roles being the resolution of legal disputes between states.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-61285285

 

[FearlessRoar]

Australia outlaws Nazi salute and hate symbols

The Nazi salute and associated hate symbols have been criminalised in Australia.

Legislation banning the salute and the display or sale of symbols associated with terror groups took effect on Monday, as the Australian government responds to a rise in hate and anti-Semitic incidents in recent months, especially amid Israel’s bombardment of Gaza.

The legislation criminalises the sale and display of Nazi motifs including the swastika and lightning bolt insignia of the SS (Schutzstaffel), the paramilitary wing of the Nazi party.

“It is now unlawful to perform the Nazi salute in public or to publicly display, or trade in, Nazi hate symbols,” Attorney General Mark Dreyfus said in a statement. “The new laws also ensure that glorifying and praising acts of terrorism are criminal offences.”

The passage of the bill through parliament by a unanimous vote on December 6 sent a clear message that there is “no place in Australia for acts and symbols that glorify the horrors of the Holocaust and terrorist acts”, Dreyfus said.

Initially, a ban on the Nazi salute was not included in the bill, with the federal law planned to leave the issue to the discretion of individual states. However, following several incidents, the bill was amended.

In March, a group of neo-Nazis clashed with transgender rights protesters in Melbourne and members were seen raising their arms in a Nazi salute near the state parliament building.

In October, three men were charged after allegedly performing a Nazi salute outside the Sydney Jewish Museum. In a separate incident the same month, an unverified video showing a group of men outside the iconic Opera House shouting “gas the Jews” during a pro-Palestinian protest triggered outrage around the world and a police investigation.

There were more anti-Jewish incidents in October and November last year than in the twelve months prior, according to the Executive Council of Australian Jewry.

Dreyfus noted in June, as the legislation was presented, that it would see federal law mesh with state legislation, all Australian states and territories having already either passed laws or announced plans to ban Nazi symbols.

Source: Al Jazeera

Australia outlaws Nazi salute and hate symbols

The law is introduced amid a surge in anti-Semitic and hate crimes.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[FearlessRoar]

The Nazi salute has become a bigger issue than supporting Israel's aggression in Gaza.

 

[FearlessRoar]

German and French far-right split over Nazi remarks​

A top far-right German politician says he will pull back from campaigning for the upcoming EU elections - although he will remain his party's lead candidate.

The latest controversy comes after the Alternative for Germany (AfD)'s Maximilian Krah told an Italian newspaper that SS members weren’t automatically "criminals".

"It depends. You have to assess blame individually. At the end of the war there were almost a million SS. Günter Grass was also in the Waffen SS," he told La Repubblica, referring to the German novelist who wrote The Tin Drum.

"Before I declare someone a criminal, I want to know what he did."

The SS, or Schutzstaffel, were a Nazi paramilitary group active in the 1930s and 1940s. Among other war crimes, SS members played a leading role in the Holocaust, the genocide of six million Jews and others during World War Two.

In response to the remarks, France’s far-right National Rally (RN) announced it would no longer sit with the AfD in the European Parliament.

RN leader Marine Le Pen told French radio that "it was urgent to establish a cordon sanitaire" between the parties.

"Cordon sanitaire" is a term used by some political parties to reject cooperation with movements viewed as too extreme. It is often used by French politicians to reject working with Ms Le Pen's RN.

"It’s time to make a clean break with this movement," she added.

In February, AfD leader Alice Weidel met with RN leaders Marine Le Pen and Jordan Bardella in an attempt to heal a rift between the parties.

The RN had distanced itself from the AfD following revelations about the German party holding a secret meeting in a villa on a lake outside of Berlin where mass deportations of non-ethnic Germans - including German citizens - were allegedly discussed.

At the time, Ms Le Pen said she rejected mass deportations of citizens based on their ethnic origin.

Announcing his decision to step back from campaigning, Mr Krah wrote on X: "The AfD must maintain its unity.

"For this reason, I will refrain from making any further campaign appearances with immediate effect and resign as a member of the federal executive board."

Mr Krah has been under pressure in the lead-up to this year's EU elections, which will take place between 6 and 9 June.

In April, one of his staffers was arrested by German police on suspicion of spying for China.

And German prosecutors have opened an investigation into Mr Krah over alleged payments from Russia and China, which he denies.

The AfD has slipped in the polls this year. But the party is still polling second or third nationwide, and first in some states due to vote in local elections later this year.

German and French far-right split over Nazi remarks

A top far-right German politician says he will pull back from campaigning for the EU elections.

www.bbc.com