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Now is the perfect time to compare Babar Azam, Mohammad Rizwan, and Shaheen Shah Afridi with the greats of the past

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tiger_khan

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In my opinion people are unfair when they are comparing a young cricketer with a career of only two to three years with the past Legends' entire body of work

however when cricketers have passed the age of 30 and have captained their teams I think that's an appropriate time to compare their performances, their skills and their achievements with the players of the past

both Barber and Rizwan have passed 30 and have by now captained Pakistan

it's only fair now to compare their performances with the legends of the past who have also served Pakistan

some of us have had the advantage of seeing live the batting of the legends of the past and the current lot. I dare say that both Babar and Rizwan, who in my opinion have passed their prime, don't even come close to the past legends

Shaheen although is only 25 but when you compare him with our bowling legends of the past when they were 25 there's not a lot to compare with

at the end of the day whether batting or bowling in high-level cricket, it's all about knowing the right length of deliveries and knowing the field placement. unfortunately our current lot is far behind in this game of understanding the cricket and to remedy their ailments

it is common in many other sports. for example Italian soccer team has 1 generation of great players followed by a generation of mediocre players. Pakistan is going through a similar phase of mediocrity. we will just have to be patient and a new lot of talented people will take over our current overhyped players

PS: many Pak famous players don't even know how to use DRS properly. Some of them, I suspect don't even know the LBW rules properly...
 
Kamran is a bit overrated cause he saved two series against India (2005 and 2006). Also had a hand in saving a match in 2007 but that series was won 1-0 anyway.

w/o Kamran India might have won all 4 of the series.
 
Babar and Afridi are still too young, an ATG like Ambrose began at the age Afridi is right now, not comparing them but it’s often said fast bowlers reach their peak in their late 20s or early 30s while Afridi is only 25.

For Rizwan we can say he has reached his full potential, a bit below peak Kamran and slightly above Sarfraz as WK batsman (all three being clutch/pressure players.)
 
BouncerGuy said:
why do we need to compare them???

Till they retire, I think.. Better
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I think it's appropriate to compare them now because the team is going through a transition phase in one form of the game might as well do the comparisons for all the formats now

i wish them fortune in the coming series. hopefully they will be able to perform well and retain their positions in all the formats but I also want to calibrate my expectations with reality. if one has seen our past batters at the age of 30 there's just no comparison and that's one of the many reasons that they are struggling

of course there could be multiple factors behind their struggling performances which we are not aware of but I am just assessing them based on the results

to be honest if they were to evolve and improve, they would have done by now
 
BouncerGuy said:
This Kamran akmal is better than rizwan??? What a joke

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View attachment 158581
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I have brought this up in the past, if stats were the only measure of picking up players or evaluating them then Microsoft Excel would be the chief selector of all the selection committees of the best teams in the world

Kamran was definitely a poor wicket keeper but when it comes to batting he was probably one of the best wicket keeping batsmen Pakistan has produced. He was a very well-rounded batsman. played both the fast and spin bowlers well. Also, had shots on both sides of the wicket

Rizwan has his own unique style which has served him well personally but the oppositions have figured him out now. that's what happens when a batter concentrates mostly on one side of the wicket.
 
Rana said:
Can’t say I disagree with any of those comparisons

You went too far ahead with Inzimam

It’s disputable wether Babar was better than Saleem Malik
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those who have seen saleem malik live, i can understand why would he be compared with Babar

malik was also a beautiful driver of the cricket ball. but he was a phenomenal better off spin bowling. also, although he did not have a great back foot game against fast bowlers but he has done well in Australia too

malik had a great cricketing mind by the time he was 30. was performing pretty well against the Great bowlers of his time - both the spinners and the quickies. although Babar has done very well against the quickies but his game against the spinners is far from what it should be at the age of 30.
 
Varun said:
Inzamam-ul-Haq > Babar Azam
Kamran Akmal > Mohammad Rizwan
Umar Gul > Shaheen Shah Afridi
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your comparison is only with the players less than two decades ago.

their skillset is not even comparable with the players from past 35 years

we are struggling with a serious drought...
 
Babar Azam has not played a single test against India. NOt sure how it would have panned out had he played. Old players did play a lot of test matches.
 
Mirpuri Don said:
Babar and Afridi are still too young, an ATG like Ambrose began at the age Afridi is right now, not comparing them but it’s often said fast bowlers reach their peak in their late 20s or early 30s while Afridi is only 25.

For Rizwan we can say he has reached his full potential, a bit below peak Kamran and slightly above Sarfraz as WK batsman (all three being clutch/pressure players.)
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Afridi ain't 25 though. KPK people fake their ages.
 
Babar doesn’t match up against greats of the past simply because he hasn’t done anything meaningful in tests.

Shaheen is same bowling wise but he hasn’t done anything tough competition as he has to be compared against some ATGs from Pakistan. Batting wise Pakistan haven’t produced any ATgs
 
saimayubera said:
Afridi ain't 25 though. KPK people fake their ages.
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He’s probably closer to 30. If he gets his act together and end up with 200 wickets in tests and Odis both I would consider it a good service for Pakistan but it doesn’t look probable at this stage
 
hur rizvi said:
He’s probably closer to 30. If he gets his act together and end up with 200 wickets in tests and Odis both I would consider it a good service for Pakistan but it doesn’t look probable at this stage
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Tests not possible. Don't even know if he is interested. Plus pitches will be dustbowls from now on so even less opportunities.

ODIs should be doable.
 
hur rizvi said:
He’s probably closer to 30. If he gets his act together and end up with 200 wickets in tests and Odis both I would consider it a good service for Pakistan but it doesn’t look probable at this stage
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Seems unlikely that he is lying about his age.

He has played for Pak under-19. At the international under-19 level, I think that they been doing bone-scanning for age verification for a while now.

Now, the only way a cricketer can lie about his age to the stats keeper is when he doesn't play under-19 cricket for his country.


I see a few experts on TV whom I have played with. Interestingly, they are the same age as me officially. I know for a fact that they were 5 to 6 years older than me when we played together :ROFLMAO:

The easiest way to hide your age back then was to never pass the matriculation (high school) exams.
 
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hur rizvi said:
He’s probably closer to 30. If he gets his act together and end up with 200 wickets in tests and Odis both I would consider it a good service for Pakistan but it doesn’t look probable at this stage
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200+ wickets in test is asking for too much.
 
There is a gap in skill set with each generation of Pakistani players, batting and bowling both in the last 3 decades.
 
Buffet said:
There is a gap in skill set with each generation of Pakistani players, batting and bowling both in the last 3 decades.
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spot on, if you compare the top 5/6 pak players each last 3 decades then you can see a visible skill gap in both batting and bowling (actually the decline in bowling is far more evident than decline in batting)
 
90s wasim , waqar , shoaib saqlain razzaq mushtaq
2000s shoaib, gul, rana naveed, kaneria,
2010s asif, Amir, yasir, ajmal,
2020s Shaheen, Naseem , Rauf, Abrar, Sajid Nauman ,Rauf

Till 2010s the bowling decline was slow but evident but post 2020 it’s declining rapidly
 
Buffet said:
There is a gap in skill set with each generation of Pakistani players, batting and bowling both in the last 3 decades.
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I have been watching cricket since the 2003 WC and each subsequent generation of Indian players is superior to the one before while for Pakistanis it is opposite.
 
saimayubera said:
I have been watching cricket since the 2003 WC and each subsequent generation of Indian players is superior to the one before while for Pakistanis it is opposite.
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For India, the bowlers are getting better. Even accounting for Kumble's greatness.

But we are not close to getting anyone of Sachin or Dravid's calibre in Tests. That was a different era and without the technique-busting T20s, batsmen were free to refine their batting techniques, which they did.
 
bunda_bindaas said:
For India, the bowlers are getting better. Even accounting for Kumble's greatness.

But we are not close to getting anyone of Sachin or Dravid's calibre in Tests. That was a different era and without the technique-busting T20s, batsmen were free to refine their batting techniques, which they did.
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Yeah, although overall I think test batting is becoming good even if no one as good as Sachin-Dravid. During Sachin-Dravid era the 2nd opener apart from Sehwag was always an issue as was the WK-bat and there were no all rounders.

Now we have deeper lineups.
 
saimayubera said:
Yeah, although overall I think test batting is becoming good even if no one as good as Sachin-Dravid. During Sachin-Dravid era the 2nd opener apart from Sehwag was always an issue as was the WK-bat and there were no all rounders.

Now we have deeper lineups.
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Yes, this is true. Although at one point in time we had:

Gambhir, Sehwag, Dravid, Tendulkar, Laxman, Ganguly and Dhoni

Perhaps the best lineup we will ever have, although not at each player's peak.
 
bunda_bindaas said:
Yes, this is true. Although at one point in time we had:

Gambhir, Sehwag, Dravid, Tendulkar, Laxman, Ganguly and Dhoni

Perhaps the best lineup we will ever have, although not at each player's peak.
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Yeah but it didn't last long as Gambhir/Ganguly only coincided for like a few months in 2008.

No 6 remained an issue till this team ended in 2011 with Raina, Yuvraj, Pujara, Kohli all batting there.
 
How each players stack up against their contemporaries. For instance.. Babar & Kohli/Root/Kane etc . Babar is well short of them. That will give you better picture. Inzamam was not quiet comparable with his contemporaries. But i have seen him play in world XI teams

 
Varun said:
Inzamam-ul-Haq > Babar Azam
Kamran Akmal > Mohammad Rizwan
Umar Gul > Shaheen Shah Afridi
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Lol Kamran was bad except few innings here and there. Just his keeping is enough to keep him out of any international cricket

Umar Gul was definitely better t20 bowler than Shaheen, but Shaheen is better in other two formats

Babar is inferior to Inzy, no doubt there.
 
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Rana said:
Don’t take it personally

Rizwan’s average in ODI is higher than Inzimam and Lara

So he’s at their level??
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Lara was a great batsman no doubt and so was Inzi. I loved inzamam but he was extremely poor in big tournaments except that great innings in 92

1759893122002.png

And Rizwan even at this stage is better than Inzy in major tournaments although he doesn't have that one magic innings

1759893201648.png
 
tiger_khan said:
I have brought this up in the past, if stats were the only measure of picking up players or evaluating them then Microsoft Excel would be the chief selector of all the selection committees of the best teams in the world

Kamran was definitely a poor wicket keeper but when it comes to batting he was probably one of the best wicket keeping batsmen Pakistan has produced. He was a very well-rounded batsman. played both the fast and spin bowlers well. Also, had shots on both sides of the wicket

Rizwan has his own unique style which has served him well personally but the oppositions have figured him out now. that's what happens when a batter concentrates mostly on one side of the wicket.
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Yet this is is record in tournaments. Sure he can produce one good innings once in a blue moon while consistently dropping catches. No one can be called "one of the best" with these record

1759893458017.png
 
Rana said:
Don’t take it personally

Rizwan’s average in ODI is higher than Inzimam and Lara

So he’s at their level??
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I cleary mentioned Kamran here... your cry is quite visible when someone takes rizwan's name.. But truth is Kamran is not even 50% of what rizwan is atm... As a keeper, kamran was one of the worst, matching haris was still bad... Rizwan has performances in all formats and we all knwo, he is the best keeper in Pakistan atm.
 
Out of the three, Rizwan is the best ever from Pakistan in his category (wicket keeping)
 
Varun said:
Inzamam-ul-Haq > Babar Azam
Kamran Akmal > Mohammad Rizwan
Umar Gul > Shaheen Shah Afridi
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Shaheen is better than Gul. There’s just frustration because Shaheen could have potentially been even better. Not the case with Gul. Though Gul was very good in the early years of t20.


Babar probably is a better allround batsman than Inzi but Inzi more clutch. Inzi also didn’t exactly stack up well against his contemporaries from other countries. While Babar at least in ODIs did. You could give Inzi the nod here.

Kamran isn’t better than Sarfraz or Rizwan. Keeping or batting. Kamran was much more talented than the three, but his actual performances with keeping and gloves were hardly ever impressive. People are mainly talking about ability when they wax lyrical about Kamran. In reality the guy got out cheaply most the time with a few flashy shots. And of course awful keeping.
 
BouncerGuy said:
I cleary mentioned Kamran here... your cry is quite visible when someone takes rizwan's name.. But truth is Kamran is not even 50% of what rizwan is atm... As a keeper, kamran was one of the worst, matching haris was still bad... Rizwan has performances in all formats and we all knwo, he is the best keeper in Pakistan atm.
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Kamran first job was to be a reliable wicket keeper. A good wicket keeper ensures stability and encourages bowlers to attack knowing that the keeper has their back. With a keeper like Akmal bowlers have to bowl within themselves and will have to generate more chances to make breakthroughs. He was a net negative before he even faced a single delivery as a batsman. Than as a batsman he was mediocre with some good innings once in a blue moon.

Rizwan for all his issues is a very safe and secure wicket keeper. Even before he starts batting he has already contributed positively to the teams cause. After that he averages better and is more reliable.
 
SportsWarrior said:
Kamran first job was to be a reliable wicket keeper. A good wicket keeper ensures stability and encourages bowlers to attack knowing that the keeper has their back. With a keeper like Akmal bowlers have to bowl within themselves and will have to generate more chances to make breakthroughs. He was a net negative before he even faced a single delivery as a batsman. Than as a batsman he was mediocre with some good innings once in a blue moon.

Rizwan for all his issues is a very safe and secure wicket keeper. Even before he starts batting he has already contributed positively to the teams cause. After that he averages better and is more reliable.
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But People think Kamran is better than riz... LOL... not sure if it's jealousy or what
 
Rizwan stands up favourably to the keepers of the past.

Shaheen it's too early to say. His career was going up and then down and the next few years will decide how he is seen. He has been brilliant in small patches.

Babar was on track to end up MIandad and Inzi level and is now looking closer to Azhar Ali, Asad Shafiq level.

All of them have a chance to pick things up.
 
daytrader said:
Out of the three, Rizwan is the best ever from Pakistan in his category (wicket keeping)
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Sarfraz was the first "modern" wicket keeper bat from Pakistan.

Rizwan the second.

Both of them could potentially play as specialist batters. Before that our keepers were mostly keepers first and batting was a bonus.

You can include Kamran as modern too, he was the first person in history to be a non catching keeper bat.

You need to judge these three on a different standard to the guys before then because the roles and cricket changed a lot.
 
Akmal family is perhaps the most talented cricketing family of the Eastern Hemisphere of planet earth. Babar, Kamran, Umar, and even Adnan. Even if they are not ATGs, that’s ATG level talent.
 
Suleiman said:
Akmal family is perhaps the most talented cricketing family of the Eastern Hemisphere of planet earth. Babar, Kamran, Umar, and even Adnan. Even if they are not ATGs, that’s ATG level talent.
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Mohammed dynasty is better. India may have some cricketing families too.

But yeah Akmal family deserves some recognition. While their careers faded away all of the lads arrived on merit and for a small period of time set the Pakistan cricket fans very high expectations as they could all play well. There was no parchism involved in them making it.

To all play at near enough the same time is an incredible feat too.
 
SportsWarrior said:
Lara was a great batsman no doubt and so was Inzi. I loved inzamam but he was extremely poor in big tournaments except that great innings in 92

View attachment 158587

And Rizwan even at this stage is better than Inzy in major tournaments although he doesn't have that one magic innings

View attachment 158588
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I’m supposed to take this post seriously?

So Rizwan is better than Lara and Inzimam because he performed better in ICC tournaments?
 
Rana said:
I’m supposed to take this post seriously?

So Rizwan is better than Lara and Inzimam because he performed better in ICC tournaments?
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So Certainly the criteria has shifted ???

bilaterals are more important ??

what criteria have you used to say that Kamran is better than rizwan?
 
BouncerGuy said:
So Certainly the criteria has shifted ???

bilaterals are more important ??

what criteria have you used to say that Kamran is better than rizwan?
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In what world is Rizwan a better batsman than Inzimam and Lara?

What kind of stupid discussion is this?
 
Rana said:
If that’s the only thing you will say, then I can’t help you.
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look up stats i posted on this thread. Inzi was a great player, i have met him, idolized him and always ranked him as one of the top players of his era. But he was not good in tournaments except one magic innings that he played when he was an unknown quantity. He consistently failed to live up to expectations in white ball tournaments. Rizwan already has more runs at a better average in lesser number of matches in big tournaments

Overall Rizwan is absolutely not as good a batsman as Inzi was. But he has delivered more than Inzi in big tournaments already and he is a wicketkeeper who is one of the best WK to come out of Pakistan. So in that niche, yes, Rizwan is better. Overall Inzy is obviously better
 
Rana said:
I’m supposed to take this post seriously?

So Rizwan is better than Lara and Inzimam because he performed better in ICC tournaments?
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I said Rizwan is better than Inzi in tournaments. he has scored more runs at better average and in less number of matches. Obviously Inzi has that magic innings and nothing major after that. In that niche, yes Riz is better than Inzi. Overall Inzamam is better than Rizwan.
 
daytrader said:
He's not even the best in his family :sarf2
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He is? Umar Akmal and Adnan Akmal had worse careers then Kami did.

Unless you mean Babar Azam although that's a first cousin lol and that too from the mothers side hence the name Azam and not Babar Akmal.
 
Rana said:
I’m supposed to take this post seriously?

So Rizwan is better than Lara and Inzimam because he performed better in ICC tournaments?
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Rizzu hasn't performed better then Lara and Inzi in icc tournaments ironically. So even if he tried to rat that argument he'd be wrong.

Inzi's best innings of 1992 and lara's 2003 innings blow rizzu out of the water.

Rizzu's 100 vs Sri lanka isnt impressive considering Sri lanka bowling attack is weak. If anything its more of a shame for babar and imam who didnt kick off.

As for t20, not fair, those other 2 played in an era when t20 didn't exist.
 
Rizwan vs Kamran:

I have played with two wicket-keeper batsmen of Pakistan who later on became Pakistan captain

I have never bowled to either Kamran or Rizwan. To me Kamran is the best wicket-keeper batsman Pakistan has produced since the late 80s.

I am not belittling Rizwan who has served Pakistan well too. But Kamran Akmal was even a better batsman than his brother Umar Akmal

Stats at the end of the day are useful but don't portray the entire picture

For example, Saleem Yousuf as a wicket-keeper batsman has played more important innings than any of the wicket-keepers of Pakistan. His important 20s and 30s in very difficult batting conditions against the world class pace attacks saved many matches for Pakistan...yet he doesn't have many 50s and even a single 100 in stats to back him up. He was also an excellent player of spin bowling. Saleem Yousuf and Wasim Akram (barring Imran Khan and Miandad) became the pioneers of Pakistani-young-cricket fortitude with their relatively small but extremely significant innings.

Rizwan has a personal technique which was working for him, until he got found out by the thinking teams.
The analysts really earn their salaries in big teams. The Indian bowlers knew exactly where to bowl to all the Pak batsmen. Pakistani analysts are either incompetent or not given the deserving respect by the players.

Kamran had less holes in his batting techniques than Rizwan. Kamran was no Sangakkara but definitely better than Rizwan.
Rizwan still has some cricket left in him. It will serve him well to concentrate more on the advice of cricketing people around him rather than investing time on superficial praises of Naqvi.

In general, whether it comes to bowlers or batters, Paksitani team is demonstrating a learning disability. They are unable to evolve. The opponents have them figured out. They must evolve. The likelihood of all players getting out of form simultaneously, against the top teams is very low. Actually, it's next to impossible.
 
BouncerGuy said:
But does it makes sense that Kamran is better than Rizwan??? He is not even better than Sarfaraz, LOL
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Just on the evidence of his keeping alone, Kamran cannot be ahead of anyone. Horrible keeper and an ordinary batter who can produce great innings once in a while. Even though Rizwan is better, the competition has been poor in terms of wicket-keeper bats in Pakistan. Even though Moin Khan and Rashid Latif were better keepers, their batting was strictly lower order with few bright spots here and there. So by default Rizwan becomes the best keeper/bat Pakistan have every produced. Let us just look at one stat to put Rizwan's white ball career into perspective. Rizwan's ODI SR is 85.88, Moin Khan who retired 21 years ago had a SR of 81.30, Kamran who last played in 2017 had a SR of 83.94, this shows how behind Rizwan is with the current trend. His average of 47 in ODIs is brilliant but his SR of 86 means that it seldom helps Pakistan to win games.
 
DeadlyVenom said:
Sarfraz was the first "modern" wicket keeper bat from Pakistan.

Rizwan the second.

Both of them could potentially play as specialist batters. Before that our keepers were mostly keepers first and batting was a bonus.

You can include Kamran as modern too, he was the first person in history to be a non catching keeper bat.

You need to judge these three on a different standard to the guys before then because the roles and cricket changed a lot.
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Kamran was a weird one. He was a keeper first. Despite focusing on keeping he was still not good at it.

He only truly developed his batting to a fuller extent once he got dropped for Sarfraz permanently. Improved lots in domestic and PSL. Actually illustrated just how much batting talent he actually had.

Which makes me wonder. Did Kamran akmal not achieve as much as he should have done due to focusing on a talent he did not have (keeping) instead of one he has in abundance (batting). Or was it just simply he didn’t work enough to develop either talent when he was playing international cricket.
 
Rana said:
Theek hai bhai

If you insist on sounding ridiculous, I can’t help it.
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Don't take my word for it. Look up the stats I posted. It's not even marginal. If you have rebuttal go ahead and post it. Otherwise you are just showing your hate and poor understanding of history
 
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