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On what type of pitches can Pakistan consistently win at home?

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Hellion

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Flat pitches - beaten by Bangladesh

Minefields - taken apart by Warrican

Balanced spin pitches - beaten by South Africa

Should Pakistan now try and curate green seamers with bounce, using imported Aussie soil, as a strategy ?
 
You can't win test matches if your top 5 batters are horribly inconsistent, if your super star batsman is playing on reputation for the last 3 years averaging 25, if your tail collapses for 5 wickets for 15 runs, if your fast bowlers run out of steam in their second and third spells, if your bowlers cannot finish the tail and allow the last 2-3 wickets to add 150 runs, if your team as a whole habitually collapses in the third and fourth innings and most importantly if your captain becomes extremely defensive, scared to lose with his bowling changes and field placings the moment the game is in the balance.

Not sure what the selectors and team management can really do, you can't keep chopping and changing the team because of poor results either.

Some basic guidelines

The PCB needs to ensure and simulate their desired home test wickets throughout their domestic cricket where the wickets aid spin and reverse swing for pacers.

All of Pakistan's players especially test players should have played a good 3-4 four day games prior to this series.

Pakistan also needs to add in fast bowling all rounders like Aamir Jamal, Faheem Ashraf, Wasim Jr and Spin bowling all rounders like Mohd Nawaz, Mehran Mumtaz because you can't carry a brittle last 4-5 wickets either.
 
Even after the pitches are screwed, last 2 test series not went in expected way.Minnows wi won the toss and match.sa won the match even after losing the toss.so pak at best can draw a series against good opponents even after the case of favourable conditions ( industrial fans, winning tosses, only 2 matches so that opposition won't get used, opposition taking time to settle)
 
Turning tracks at least give them a chance.

They are basically Bangladesh level now and using Bangladesh level tactics to win a few home matches here and there.
 
TBH, Pakistan can do anything but they will not improve until they do the same thing in domestic cricket... If you are gonna go with spin formula, you gotta prepare spin tracks in domestic and chose the best guys from there... These shans and abdullah will not work... Babar should play on those tracks so he can make sure he can get a spot otherwise go with young blood
 
You can only blame the pitches so much, ultimately, it's the players who win you matches. Pakistan already has an edge over SENA teams on these types of pitches, yet they still couldn't get the job done against South Africa.

This is not the first time Pakistan have employed this type of strategy...spin-friendly pitches were the foundation of Pakistan's success in the UAE, and their best period in test cricket in recent times.

But they also had players like Younis Khan, Misbah-ul-Haq, Azhar Ali and Asad Shafiq who formed a very stable middle-order that delivered consistently. They had spinners like Yasir Shah, Saeed Ajmal, Abdul Rehman, Zulfiqar Babar who could be relied on to win matches with the ball. When you have such a strong and established core, filling in the blanks (pacers, openers) becomes much easier.

Pakistan does not have that strong and established core right now. Barring a few players you can't even call most of these guys match-winners.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
You can only blame the pitches so much, ultimately, it's the players who win you matches. Pakistan already has an edge over SENA teams on these types of pitches, yet they still couldn't get the job done against South Africa.

This is not the first time Pakistan have employed this type of strategy...spin-friendly pitches were the foundation of Pakistan's success in the UAE, and their best period in test cricket in recent times.

But they also had players like Younis Khan, Misbah-ul-Haq, Azhar Ali and Asad Shafiq who formed a very stable middle-order that delivered consistently. They had spinners like Yasir Shah, Saeed Ajmal, Abdul Rehman, Zulfiqar Babar who could be relied on to win matches with the ball. When you have such a strong and established core, filling in the blanks (pacers, openers) becomes much easier.

Pakistan does not have that strong and established core right now. Barring a few players you can't even call most of these guys match-winners.
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No they don't. Those teams barring England have better spinners and good players of spin.
 
Tbh these pitches are fine. Pakistan are a mid table team and being able to draw against SA is probably our level.

We don’t have any great spinners or fast bowlers in the wings who would make us firm favourites on any type of pitch. Batters too are pretty average
 
Winning is important but creating which offers something to fast bowlers as well is important. Pakistan do not have top class fast bowlers or spinners neither do we have players who play spin exceptionally well. Create pitches with average bounce and pace, and which has some rough at the end of day 3. There will be reverse swing as well. We may lose but cricket will be interesting.
 
Hellion said:
Flat pitches - beaten by Bangladesh

Minefields - taken apart by Warrican

Balanced spin pitches - beaten by South Africa

Should Pakistan now try and curate green seamers with bounce, using imported Aussie soil, as a strategy ?
Click to expand...
It's shame that PCT has become a laughing stock, if they can't win on these tracks then they can't compete in overseas conditions at all. These issues will persist until we don't allow the real domestic grinders in Tests
 
JibranAnsari said:
Winning is important but creating which offers something to fast bowlers as well is important. Pakistan do not have top class fast bowlers or spinners neither do we have players who play spin exceptionally well. Create pitches with average bounce and pace, and which has some rough at the end of day 3. There will be reverse swing as well. We may lose but cricket will be interesting.
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+1

Not this tour but last tour of SA had better pitches where all skills were in play. I liked those pitches.
 
The Bald Eagle said:
It's shame that PCT has become a laughing stock, if they can't win on these tracks then they can't compete in overseas conditions at all. These issues will persist until we don't allow the real domestic grinders in Tests
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PAK have been a bunch of ****** in overseas conditions forvm a long time.

They need to win at home first.
 
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If you produce flat wickets, Pakistani batsmen don't have the mentality and application to score big hundreds that batsmen from other teams will have, and neither are Pakistani bowlers good enough to get anything from a wicket that has no assistance for them.

If you produce seam-friendly wickets, Pakistani batsmen aren't good enough to navigate swing and seam.

If you produce spin-friendly wickets, Pakistani batsmen aren't good enough to play spin bowling.

The reality is that it doesn't matter what kind of pitches Pakistan produce. They will lose more often than not because Pakistan is a below-average team that may win an odd match here or there, thanks to winning the toss, but they are never going to be good enough to consistently win a series against a top side at home, regardless of the type of wicket.

The series win against England last year has given a lot of fans and the Pakistan management the false idea that spin wickets are the way forward, but as we saw in the West Indies series and the recently concluded South Africa series, spin wickets aren't going to yield the desired results when Pakistani batsmen aren't good at playing spin.
 
The_KING said:
If you produce flat wickets, Pakistani batsmen don't have the mentality and application to score big hundreds that batsmen from other teams will have, and neither are Pakistani bowlers good enough to get anything from a wicket that has no assistance for them.

If you produce seam-friendly wickets, Pakistani batsmen aren't good enough to navigate swing and seam.

If you produce spin-friendly wickets, Pakistani batsmen aren't good enough to play spin bowling.

The reality is that it doesn't matter what kind of pitches Pakistan produce. They will lose more often than not because Pakistan is a below-average team that may win an odd match here or there, thanks to winning the toss, but they are never going to be good enough to consistently win a series against a top side at home, regardless of the type of wicket.

The series win against England last year has given a lot of fans and the Pakistan management the false idea that spin wickets are the way forward, but as we saw in the West Indies series and the recently concluded South Africa series, spin wickets aren't going to yield the desired results when Pakistani batsmen aren't good at playing spin.
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Spin wickets still allow Pakistan some wins.

On flat pitches Pakistan were winless at home for nearly 3 years.

And Pakistan have been winless in SENA since 2018 so won't win on green wickets as well.

Spin wickets are the best option. Just doesn't mean Pakistan will dominate.

Same with Bangladesh team. Spin wickets mean they win a few matches here and there and draw series, even though they mostly lose.
 
Continue this for SENA teams. This is still a good result for bottom ranked team that losts tests at home to Bangladesh and West Indies to draw level against world champion side.

Having said that, no reason we cant continue to work on improving:
A. Random collapses. Nothing changes in pitch or bowling and suddenly same guy who scored 50 in last innings is getting out first ball and you lose 5 for 20 runs. Something has to be done to address this, not sure how, but need more mental toughness. Maybe pick guys who aren't mental midgets. Guys like Amir Jamal. Or specify what tail should do. They can hang around till Recognized batsman is there instead of swinging for sixes.

B. Selection. Easy to say in hindsight but maybe Abrar would have been much harder for SAF tail to handle or team in general with pitch and ability to read and quicker off surface.

C. Batting order. Salman Agha looks like best batsmen but bats too low. Send him above Rizwan minimally.

D. Opening. Shafiq has had enough chances and even when he scored he may have been dropped a few times. Time to drop him for some time. He will be sitting duck overseas also where every edge will carry to slip. At the moment best openers seem to be Imam and Shan, just let them open for next 1 year consistently. Shan has to come in within couple overs anyway and is opener. This also allows bringing Salman up batting order. Maybe bring back KG or some other batting options.

E. Improving and mandating more first class. More A team 4 day game tours, etc. That's your pipeline for tests. Out of that some good will come and some out of form players find form, etc.

F. Highly individualized weakness addressing plan and camps to work on specific weaknesses of our batters. E.g. Babar against left armer issue. Etc. Have them work with Yusuf or Younis or someone and address these things methodically.

G. Increase tests vs t20 and jamodi. More you play better you get individually and as team.

H. Offer minimumb2 day practice games to touring sides and madndate this for foreign tours. They wont mind and allows you to test bench strength.

Overall this could help even with current talent pool to get from lets say number 8 to 5 6 perhaps. Unlikely to get to top 3 but you gotta keep working to do the best with what you have.
 
Teams are up to this gig now. They come fully prepared with 3 orr 4 spinners. But i hear Rabada was very unlucky in this match.
 
Hellion said:
Flat pitches - beaten by Bangladesh

Minefields - taken apart by Warrican

Balanced spin pitches - beaten by South Africa

Should Pakistan now try and curate green seamers with bounce, using imported Aussie soil, as a strategy ?
Click to expand...

We can't win consistently even if we play on pitches made of Bollywood scripts

It's not about the pitches. It's about our cricket culture and premature-victory-feeling-comfort.
 
We have been carrying inconsistent non-performers for very long. Babar hadn't even scored a 50 for 3 years. I am interested in seeing Rizwan's average for the last 2 years. Abdullah Shafiq too has been carried. Imam scored well in one innings and went missing in the next 3.

You cannot have so many inconsistent unreliable players in the team and expect the team to perform consistently.
 
I DO NOT understand the Pakistani concept of winning. First thing most countries do is fix the structure to win something. They don't have players to perform persistently. Even if they do, the administration as any admin in Pakistan, is so corrupt that they can't select on merit. The mental midgets think that they can win by playing spinners, but end up losing to BD even. Pak has a defeatist mindset. The aptitude needs to be fixed.

Create school cricket culture under qualified coaches. Play on sporting wickets. Until then, keep cooking the magic recipes :D
 
Savak said:
We have been carrying inconsistent non-performers for very long. Babar hadn't even scored a 50 for 3 years. I am interested in seeing Rizwan's average for the last 2 years. Abdullah Shafiq too has been carried. Imam scored well in one innings and went missing in the next 3.

You cannot have so many inconsistent unreliable players in the team and expect the team to perform consistently.
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The more worrying thing is that there is no one credible you can even replace them with.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
The more worrying thing is that there is no one credible you can even replace them with.
Click to expand...

I don't buy that

I think there must be a lot of talented players who don't come up because they don't have the proverbial Parchi

Fawad Alam was one of the best players in the country but was not given a chance for a decade. What the likes of Ramiz Raja, Dr Nauman Niaz, Mohammad Wasim. etc did to Fawad Alam's career, you can write a book on it. They always criticized him. Stated that he looks ugly while batting. Some how he came back after almost a decade and performed. When the Kiwi experts started to praise Fawad Alam, they joined the chorus. They all owe an apology to Fawad Alam.

Saud Shakeel should have made the debut at least a couple of years earlier.

Sarfaraz, in his early years couldn't play because of Kamran Akmal and his brother Adnan

Taufiq Ahmad did not get as many chances as an opener as others

Look at Asif Afridi. His debut is too late. He was always a good bowler.

Abid Ali has always been a far much better player than Imam. The former was introduced to PAk team later than former

Look at what they are doing to Hasan Nawaz right now.


There are thousands of such examples. The experts sitting on TV tell us that there is no one else because they are a part of the cricket circle. They want to maintain the cricket relationships with the players, the administration and the Franchise owners.
 
saimayubera said:
Spin wickets still allow Pakistan some wins.

On flat pitches Pakistan were winless at home for nearly 3 years.

And Pakistan have been winless in SENA since 2018 so won't win on green wickets as well.

Spin wickets are the best option. Just doesn't mean Pakistan will dominate.

Same with Bangladesh team. Spin wickets mean they win a few matches here and there and draw series, even though they mostly lose.
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On flat pitches at least there were draws apart from one bazballer whitewash....
 
Rababa played out of syllabus knock...you can't do anything with it plus 2nd innings collapsing from past 1 year is major issue.....I expect them to win most home tests going forward with little changes in batting...
 
Katwalindian said:
Rababa played out of syllabus knock...you can't do anything with it plus 2nd innings collapsing from past 1 year is major issue.....I expect them to win most home tests going forward with little changes in batting...
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It was a pleasure to lose against our South African brethren

Hopefully they had a good preparation for their Indian tour. Wish them all the best ;)
 
tiger_khan said:
I don't buy that

I think there must be a lot of talented players who don't come up because they don't have the proverbial Parchi

Fawad Alam was one of the best players in the country but was not given a chance for a decade. What the likes of Ramiz Raja, Dr Nauman Niaz, Mohammad Wasim. etc did to Fawad Alam's career, you can write a book on it. They always criticized him. Stated that he looks ugly while batting. Some how he came back after almost a decade and performed. When the Kiwi experts started to praise Fawad Alam, they joined the chorus. They all owe an apology to Fawad Alam.

Saud Shakeel should have made the debut at least a couple of years earlier.

Sarfaraz, in his early years couldn't play because of Kamran Akmal and his brother Adnan

Taufiq Ahmad did not get as many chances as an opener as others

Look at Asif Afridi. His debut is too late. He was always a good bowler.

Abid Ali has always been a far much better player than Imam. The former was introduced to PAk team later than former

Look at what they are doing to Hasan Nawaz right now.


There are thousands of such examples. The experts sitting on TV tell us that there is no one else because they are a part of the cricket circle. They want to maintain the cricket relationships with the players, the administration and the Franchise owners.
Click to expand...
You are mentioning past examples that have little relevance to the present ground realities. The dearth of talent in Pakistan cricket is very real, and has been a cause of concern for a while now. The output is simply not there. Numerous top domestic performers have been given chances in recent years, but most have failed to look anywhere near international standard. Whereas the players who were supposed to carry this team into the future have all regressed at alarming rates. We can keep telling ourselves that Pakistan is overflowing with talent, but talent doesn't mean a damn thing if it never translates into skill, temperament, and performance at the highest level, when it matters most.
 
RedwoodOriginal said:
You are mentioning past examples that have little relevance to the present ground realities. The dearth of talent in Pakistan cricket is very real, and has been a cause of concern for a while now. The output is simply not there. Numerous top domestic performers have been given chances in recent years, but most have failed to look anywhere near international standard. Whereas the players who were supposed to carry this team into the future have all regressed at alarming rates. We can keep telling ourselves that Pakistan is overflowing with talent, but talent doesn't mean a damn thing if it never translates into skill, temperament, and performance at the highest level, when it matters most.
Click to expand...

You points have some merit

However, we our past to predict our future

I don't know if you are/were a part of PAk cricket fraternity or not

You probably are aware that some of the domestic "top performers" due to their "relationships" hardly get out LBW (if they are batters) and get controversial victims (if they are bowlers)

Pakistani domestic-cricket realities are like a horror movie


The way Babar got LBW today, he could have survived if it were a domestic match with a domestic umpire...
 
Katwalindian said:
Rababa played out of syllabus knock...you can't do anything with it plus 2nd innings collapsing from past 1 year is major issue.....I expect them to win most home tests going forward with little changes in batting...
Click to expand...

Yes Rabada played a ATG unexpected knock. But i disagree with nothing could be done about it. Shan Masood's pathetic captaincy and defensive field placements with insufficient fielders close to the bat and everyone on the boundary only further enabled Rabadda.
 
When Pakistan used to win in the UAE, we had Younis, Misbah to hold the bat.

There's no reliable batsman in the entire team.
 
No matter what type of pitch you make, if the team is trash, you will play trash and lose anywhere and on any type of pitch...

Work on team and players first.
 
Its simple you do not have any impact player. The players like shan, shaheen, babar, rizwan and saud have played many test matches still they dont know how to produce impactful performances.
why rizwan is coming at number 6? is he a specialist batsmen? a proper batsmen should play at number 6 which is salman agha.
 
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