Pakistan 140 km/hr plus pacers dont have the attitude of express pacers

[Savak]

Classic example we saw today when Glen Phillips was making merry. Harris Rauf, Wasim Jr and even Hasnain kept bowling slower deliveries or half volleys but not a single bowler decided to use a bouncer to test him out or change the angle by going around the wicket.

We saw the same thing on the Perth Wicket against Zimbabwe where the wicket had plenty of pace, grass but for some reason Shaheen and Naseem in the first three overs kept on pitching the ball up and did not bowl a single bouncer in the first 3 overs and hence Zimbabwe scored a vital 31 runs in the first 3 overs.

We saw Naseem do the same thing in the T-20 WC final where he kept pitching the ball up to Butler in the first few overs and conceeded 3-4 boundaries when the wicket had plenty of pace and carry.

Even in the England test series where on the same dead wickets Pakistani batsmen were getting bounced out by Anderson, Robinson and Wood, Pakistani pacers just went through the motions and there was no game plan by the team management with regards to trying something different.

For me, the fast bowling coach Shaun Tait is accountable and i cannot see a single thing he has contributed to the pacers.

Having 140-145 km/hr pace is useless if you can't make use of it

 

[ataullah]

Classic example we saw today when Glen Phillips was making merry. Harris Rauf, Wasim Jr and even Hasnain kept bowling slower deliveries or half volleys but not a single bowler decided to use a bouncer to test him out or change the angle by going around the wicket.

We saw the same thing on the Perth Wicket against Zimbabwe where the wicket had plenty of pace, grass but for some reason Shaheen and Naseem in the first three overs kept on pitching the ball up and did not bowl a single bouncer in the first 3 overs and hence Zimbabwe scored a vital 31 runs in the first 3 overs.

We saw Naseem do the same thing in the T-20 WC final where he kept pitching the ball up to Butler in the first few overs and conceeded 3-4 boundaries when the wicket had plenty of pace and carry.

Even in the England test series where on the same dead wickets Pakistani batsmen were getting bounced out by Anderson, Robinson and Wood, Pakistani pacers just went through the motions and there was no game plan by the team management with regards to trying something different.

For me, the fast bowling coach Shaun Tait is accountable and i cannot see a single thing he has contributed to the pacers.

Having 140-145 km/hr pace is useless if you can't make use of it

I think tate isn't accountable but the bowlers are. They are international bowlers and should have enough intelligence to bowl a good bouncer. What's the point of such pace if u get bashed around and don't put fear in the batsman like Akhtar, waqar and wasim?

 

[Kroll]

Haris Rauf must be one of the most brainless bowlers around. What is it with our express pace bowlers. First Wahab, now this generation of brainless bowlers like Rauf, Naseem, Hasnain etc.

 

[Saj]

I think tate isn't accountable but the bowlers are. They are international bowlers and should have enough intelligence to bowl a good bouncer. What's the point of such pace if u get bashed around and don't put fear in the batsman like Akhtar, waqar and wasim?

You are taking about world class legendary bowlers versus bowlers who now and then bowl a decent ball.

The problem is one of our bowlers bowls a ball in the mid 140s and we get so excited by it when the likes of Wasim, Waqar and Akhtar bowled balls 145kph and more all the time.

 

[Markhor]

Hasnain looks so apologetic out there. Come on man, I'm not after fake machismo but show some fire.

 

[Saj]

As for the attitude.

The whole team is so friendly and soft.

Where's the fire in their bellies? Where's the attitude? Where's the anger?

 

[PakHammer]

As for the attitude.

The whole team is so friendly and soft.

Where's the fire in their bellies? Where's the attitude? Where's the anger?

That comes up with leadership group. Saqlain is a softy which in turn makes Babar even more of a softy. The only short term solution is to make Sarfraz test captain with a more aggressive coach.

I don't like fake bravado but you're allowed to tell your fast bowlers to sledge a bit and bowl a few bouncers.

The only bowlers out of the current crop who seem a bit more aggressive are Shaheen & Naseem but both are injury prone.

 

[TheSultan]

As for the attitude.

The whole team is so friendly and soft.

Where's the fire in their bellies? Where's the attitude? Where's the anger?

It’s been muted for very long. For the last 12 years we’ve been on this pointless charm offensive, tipping caps to the opposition, competing to pat the opposition on the back, hugging the opposition, blowing kisses.

And the worst part a lot of our fans love it! Ohh team unity, team unity.

Give me the 90s back any day of the week.

 

[Mamoon]

You got to have the skills too. Shaheen is the only world class or potential world class fast bowler that Pakistan has.

The likes of Rauf, Naseem, Hasnain, Dahani & Wasim are all average. They have loud fans but the reality is that they are not half as good as their fans think.

None of them have the skill or the fitness to play well across all three formats.

 

[TheSultan]

That comes up with leadership group. Saqlain is a softy which in turn makes Babar even more of a softy. The only short term solution is to make Sarfraz test captain with a more aggressive coach.

I don't like fake bravado but you're allowed to tell your fast bowlers to sledge a bit and bowl a few bouncers.

The only bowlers out of the current crop who seem a bit more aggressive are Shaheen & Naseem but both are injury prone.

The difference between Naseem, Shaheen and the rest is that they actually seem to be enjoying their bowling. Allows them to express themselves more.

Hasnain seems like a lost little kid - get a lot of post 2004/5 Sami vibes from him. The pre 2004/5 Sami was a different beast in attitude and performances.

Haris seems very laboured too

Even then, I believe even Naseem and Shaheen need to show more aggression too

 

[hitthestump]

As for the attitude.

The whole team is so friendly and soft.

Where's the fire in their bellies? Where's the attitude? Where's the anger?

Because Pakistani's like to ridicule our own boys when they try and be confident and cocky.

Look how we mocked "i like to see fear in the batsmans eyes" Naseem and "i hit 150 sixes per day" Asif Ali.

Plus we need the nice guy attitude as we are on the back foot globally. We fear that if we offend the wrong team we can say goodbye to future tours or PSL appearances.

 

[Mamoon]

Because Pakistani's like to ridicule our own boys when they try and be confident and cocky.

Look how we mocked "i like to see fear in the batsmans eyes" Naseem and "i hit 150 sixes per day" Asif Ali.

Plus we need the nice guy attitude as we are on the back foot globally. We fear that if we offend the wrong team we can say goodbye to future tours or PSL appearances.

Pakistani players overdo both ways. They either make tall claims without achieving anything or are extremely timid.

Babar is a great example - proven player but zero attitude & intensity. Shaheen is probably the only players who looks & behaves like a proven star player.

 

[shokz1408]

As for the attitude.

The whole team is so friendly and soft.

Where's the fire in their bellies? Where's the attitude? Where's the anger?

Yeah this attitude has been missing for a while, ever since sarfaraz was dropped, and babar has taken over, the lack of intensity has become increasingly evident. Coaching staff are satisfied with wins/losses, part of the game as per saqlain. And Babar doesn’t answer to anybody. You don’t look to Babar for motivation on the field, he doesn’t look or talk like a leader.

 

[zarar]

The current group of Pakistani players are way to nice. Majority are a soft bunch and timid with their attitudes on the field despite all the worldwide experience across franchise league some of them have. Quite sad to see.

Whether it’s the captain, A few players or a single man. Every team needs 1 troop who is always motivating or reminding the team what it means to be on the pitch out there. There’s no voice in this current Pakistan team. Sometimes fast bowlers need an awakening from someone to ignite that fire in their bellies. Whenever I see the team on the field, I don’t see desire, wanting it more than the opposition or letting the opposition know you’re not leaving this pitch without a fight.

I can accept losing. But I can’t accept it without trying or wanting/showing you want to win. The mentality of the current group of players needs to change, The consistent poor performances in crucial matches in the last 2 years shows the fragile mentality of the Pakistan team currently.

 

[Romali_rotti]

I have been saying it, all the current Pakistani bowlers are junk....

Supposedly the Indians would apparently give their left shin to acquire these Pakistani bowlers

 

[Mean&Green]

You got to have the skills too. Shaheen is the only world class or potential world class fast bowler that Pakistan has.

The likes of Rauf, Naseem, Hasnain, Dahani & Wasim are all average. They have loud fans but the reality is that they are not half as good as their fans think.

None of them have the skill or the fitness to play well across all three formats.

Naseem is special rest I agree with rauf as I told you has an ego problem plus he’s paindu but he is above average it takes time

 

[Maher96]

Our consistent failures with the ball have been losing us many key matches. Before our batting was usually the same but bowling would trump. This current bunch seems lethargic, slow, timid and without any magic.

Average domestic bowlers.

The way things are won’t be surprised if Wahab and Amir both are brought back.

 

[Suleiman]

Hasnain, Rauf, Wasim Jr are all brainless as soon as the heat is on. They lose their nerve and lose the plot. In order of most likely to bottle under pressure it goes 1) Hasnain 2) Wasim Jr 3) Rauf, but they all have this deficiency. Saying this as a Hasnain and Rauf fan.

Naseem too has his lapses in judgement as well.

Shaun Tait has no credentials to be coaching at this level. This guy himself was just pace and nothing else, so what exactly did PCB expect from him? He’s just going to tell them to bowl fast and that’s it. No thinking, nothing.

Look at BD. Even they have Alan Donald of all people as bowling coach, look at what he’s done with their attack. For BD standards, they have looked genuinely threatening in 2022.

Yes, coaching at international level can’t do much if you don’t have good fundamentals, but this is about strategizing and outsmarting the batsman, in that case a top quality bowling coach definitely does work.

 

[Savak]

The team needs someone like Langer to light a flame.

 

[Ab Fan]

Pakistan pacers are only good for 4 overs burst in shortest format of the game. Even there, they rely a lot on their greatest T20 spinner Shadab Khan who has performed in World Cups in must win games vs Australia and South Africa.

In what is referred as a real man's format, their pacers are outright mediocre.

 

[Usman Chadda]

What a stupid thread. One of our pacers has a five wicket haul in this very series, while the likes of Rauf and Wasim have been decent in the last year or so.

Hasnain looks under-cooked, and that’s to be expected when he spends more time on the bench than playing.

Only in Test cricket are we really struggling, and that’s only logical considering none of these boys have any meaningful experience of First-Class cricket.

 

[Mamoon]

Naseem is special rest I agree with rauf as I told you has an ego problem plus he’s paindu but he is above average it takes time

Naseem is not special. His Test numbers are pathetic. He is overhyped like everyone else & at best a white ball bowler. Nothing more.

 

[Corridor of Uncertainty]

Trickles down from the top.

Babar (and Rizwan) are more interested in winning popularity competitions - friendship gestures to opposition, cake for a match losing century etc.

Camaraderie trumps results.

A change in coach and I feel with the same team, the results may start coming.

 

[Usman Chadda]

Trickles down from the top.

Babar (and Rizwan) are more interested in winning popularity competitions - friendship gestures to opposition, cake for a match losing century etc.

Camaraderie trumps results.

A change in coach and I feel with the same team, the results may start coming.

We lack quality, and not in the bowling department in LOI cricket. Can you imagine any Pakistani batsman right now playing a blinder like Phillips did yesterday? How long will we keep blaming the bowlers for our average batters?

Didn’t our bowlers set up the first ODI victory and the second match too? Only for the batters to muck it up in the end as usual.

People here bemoan our stupid selectors dropping an in-form white ball player due to his red ball failures, when the same nonsense logic is being applied where the bowlers are continuously blamed for the average batting in a batsman dominated era

 

[IAJ]

Yeh bhi din dekhnay kou anay they jabb padhosi humare teiz gaindbaazon ko lay kay humayn tanay maar rahey houn.

 

[mastermind_quad]

Yeh bhi din dekhnay kou anay they jabb padhosi humare teiz gaindbaazon ko lay kay humayn tanay maar rahey houn.

Waqt badal gaye halat badal gaye

 

[Saj]

I've had this debate with friends so many times.

It's not just about pace, you have to have the quality to go with that pace also.

No point acting the big man if you cannot put the ball in the right place.

The likes of Shaheen and to a certain point Naseem can do it, the rest are very average, they would look ridiculous snarling at any batter when they are being smashed all over the park.

 

[MenInG]

Salman Butt on this subject:

“I’m most disappointed with the Pakistan bowlers. What were they doing? Ye speed Kya Bank Me Jama Karaani Hai? (Do you have to deposit the speed in the bank?) Neither did you bowl bouncer nor did you bowl a yorker. The batter smashed you for midwicket and front of square towards six. No yorkers, no bouncers! At one point, I think Haris Rauf bowled 10 slower balls in his two overs"

“You are a genuine pacer. You bowl fast. Where is your speed? Why didn’t you bowl a yorker? Even if you had missed a yorker, it’s not easy to smash a lower full toss for a six"

 

[IAJ]

Waqt badal gaye halat badal gaye

Laikin jazbaat nahi badle.

Good to see you again m_q

 

[IAJ]

Hasnain, Rauf, Wasim Jr are all brainless as soon as the heat is on. They lose their nerve and lose the plot. In order of most likely to bottle under pressure it goes 1) Hasnain 2) Wasim Jr 3) Rauf, but they all have this deficiency. Saying this as a Hasnain and Rauf fan.

Naseem too has his lapses in judgement as well.

Shaun Tait has no credentials to be coaching at this level. This guy himself was just pace and nothing else, so what exactly did PCB expect from him? He’s just going to tell them to bowl fast and that’s it. No thinking, nothing.

Look at BD. Even they have Alan Donald of all people as bowling coach, look at what he’s done with their attack. For BD standards, they have looked genuinely threatening in 2022.

Yes, coaching at international level can’t do much if you don’t have good fundamentals, but this is about strategizing and outsmarting the batsman, in that case a top quality bowling coach definitely does work.

Apprantly he is not telling that either. They were bowling too many slower balls, especially Haris Rauf, he just don't have stamina to bowl more than 4 overs, he should only focus on T20s.

 

[Corridor of Uncertainty]

We lack quality, and not in the bowling department in LOI cricket. Can you imagine any Pakistani batsman right now playing a blinder like Phillips did yesterday? How long will we keep blaming the bowlers for our average batters?

Didn’t our bowlers set up the first ODI victory and the second match too? Only for the batters to muck it up in the end as usual.

People here bemoan our stupid selectors dropping an in-form white ball player due to his red ball failures, when the same nonsense logic is being applied where the bowlers are continuously blamed for the average batting in a batsman dominated era

You have a point. Batting has been abysmal

 

[TheSultan]

Salman Butt on this subject:

“I’m most disappointed with the Pakistan bowlers. What were they doing? Ye speed Kya Bank Me Jama Karaani Hai? (Do you have to deposit the speed in the bank?) Neither did you bowl bouncer nor did you bowl a yorker. The batter smashed you for midwicket and front of square towards six. No yorkers, no bouncers! At one point, I think Haris Rauf bowled 10 slower balls in his two overs"

“You are a genuine pacer. You bowl fast. Where is your speed? Why didn’t you bowl a yorker? Even if you had missed a yorker, it’s not easy to smash a lower full toss for a six"

Great point - our bowlers, just because they can bowl a few slower balls, default to this way too often. Just bowl fast.

Naseem was guilty of that in the World Cup too. Since (and including) the World Cup Final he has just about got it right now. I don’t know what Haris is doing. He doesn’t seem fully fit either

 

[TheSultan]

I've had this debate with friends so many times.

It's not just about pace, you have to have the quality to go with that pace also.

No point acting the big man if you cannot put the ball in the right place.

The likes of Shaheen and to a certain point Naseem can do it, the rest are very average, they would look ridiculous snarling at any batter when they are being smashed all over the park.

There was a segment on Channel 4 or Sky Sports I can't remember where the TV Companies were asked why they categorise some bowlers as "Fast" and some as "Fast-Medium" where they are around the same pace and sometimes the Fast-Medium bowlers are (at times) quicker.

The response by the commentators was that they categorise based on the mentality of the bowler. Some bowlers are not express but their mentality, their style of bowling is of a genuine Fast Bowler whereas the Fast Mediums ay be quick at times but they don't have that same mentality.

Makes a lot of sense to me. And we can probably say a lot of our bowlers are "quick" as in they have the pace, but they do not have the mentality of a fast bowler.

So for me anyway, (respectfully disagree with you) it is not about ability to land the ball in the right place, it is about mentality. Our cricketing culture has shifted so far to remove the snarl and what some of the other countries deemed "improper / annoying" conduct" that we have bred all our players to be placid, smiling players. This has also reflected in our competitiveness. A lot of our players have the attitude of just being happy to be on the pitch - that's their aim. The aim is not to fight to win the match. Sometimes when you fight you have to snarl, you have to fight, you have to sledge.

I'd rather be a delusional fighter than a placid coward.

 

[Varun]

Pakistan have only produced 3 such bowlers in their history: Wasim, Waqar and Shoaib. All 3 exceptions to the default rule of Naseem Shah, Anwar Ali, Aizaz Cheema etc.

 

[Mirpuri Don]

Pakistan have only produced 3 such bowlers in their history: Wasim, Waqar and Shoaib. All 3 exceptions to the default rule of Naseem Shah, Anwar Ali, Aizaz Cheema etc.

And Imran Khan.

You had others "genuine fast" even though they didn’t have a great career e.g. Mohammad Zahid, more deserving of that list than Anwar Ali/Aizaz Cheema.

But yeah being genuinely fast AND a great bowler (Test average < 25) isn’t that easy to come across, and Pakistan gets the credit because I guess it’s an outlier in Asia.

 

[MenInG]

Wasim Akram in an interview

"If you get more money for playing only four overs, then this will be an easy decision. Naseem Shah, Haris Rauf, and Wasim Jr. should play first-class cricket. Apart from PSL, they must play 1-2 leagues in a year, but also in long format matches. Pay attention; if we had time, we would have played 4-day matches."

 

[JibranAnsari]

The whole team has zero aggression and attitude , yes there is lack of skills and ability as well but the biggest flaw is lack of competitive attitude.

 

[Saj]

Back in the day 140kph from a Pakistani pacer was expected almost every ball.

These days people get over-excited if we see a 140kph ball from a Pakistani pacer.

 

[giri26]

Lack of exposure and bowling awareness is a problem for Pakistan pacers. Quality is there but anytime they need to bowl more than 4 overs they struggle. Look at Haris Rauf for example, he just has 22 List A and 9 FC games. He dies have 142 T20 games. If you don't play the longer format, you will not know how to work over a batter. In a way with the accuracy, pace and talent Haris or Naseem have it is easier to get wickets in T20s as batters are trying to score of every ball. ODIs & Tests are different, you only learn with experience. We all talk about Wasim, Imran & Waqar but they played lots of FC cricket