Pakistan pacers - the great slinging question

[Cpt. Rishwat]

This has bothered me for years now, and it's probably come up in several threads about new ball skills in various threads, but I just wanted to look at it from a different perspective.

We have had several bowlers who bowl relatively fast down the years, but is there a reason why we seem to produce so many who bowl with brave heart and therefore inevitably slant the ball into the batsman's legs? Rauf and Wasim Jr. both do, Hasan does as well to a lesser extent, and Wahab did this as well although as a leftie.

I didn't watch the India game today but I saw Shami bowling a few days ago, he's presents a great seam and gets it to cut both ways, and I saw one ball from Siraj and that cut away to clean bowl the batsman. India has some fine fast bowlers at this time.

Why is it Indian bowlers seem to understand that bowling isn't just about slinging it in as fast as you can, but that there is also an art to using the new ball, while Pak bowlers look like they've come directly from tape ball to international cricket? Are there no coaches in Pakistan? Are new balls not considered worth wasting time on because you can just wait for the ball to get 40 overs old and it will start to reverse?

 

[Kianig89]

India has better infrastructure support staff, diet nutrition biomechanics and even players have personal coaches and trainer therefore more focus on player development, while Pakistan once there was Aaqib Javed in NCA who remodelled the action of young fast bowlers to sting out the swing, then Waqar was also at the helm where focus was more on finding speedster ala spray gun

 

[jnaveen1980]

Indian bowlers are quicker off the pitch. I see shaheen afridi. Once the ball lands it loses the speed rapidly. Wish they had shown the speeds of before pitching/after pitching. Rauf has same issues. This is why Rohit sharma was able to stand outside the crease and wallop his 145k down the ground for six. Uncoking of wrists, seam presentation there are so many technical aspects that make a 145k look like 145k. Otherwise he will continue to be pitch dependent.

 

[Bhaijaan]

Pakistan has variety of pacers and they’re all not the same.

Hasan Ali is a good swing bowler , like Shardul Thakur.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I am not getting you op. What do you mean by open chested?

The classic fast bowlers action is side on which means he can generate outswing. Open chested refers to those bowlers who don't get properly side on and face their chest to the batsman. This can generate more speed, but makes outswing very difficult. You could watch a video on youtube, that would probably be more instructive.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

Indian bowlers are quicker off the pitch. I see shaheen afridi. Once the ball lands it loses the speed rapidly. Wish they had shown the speeds of before pitching/after pitching. Rauf has same issues. This is why Rohit sharma was able to stand outside the crease and wallop his 145k down the ground for six. Uncoking of wrists, seam presentation there are so many technical aspects that make a 145k look like 145k. Otherwise he will continue to be pitch dependent.

So basically there is a lack of technical knowledge about the art of fast bowling, similar to what @Kianig89 is also saying. If I recall correctly, didn't the 7ft bowler Mohammed Irfan come from a lorry driving background in the UAE? It just seems there is no infrastructure at all in Pakistan cricket. Are there even any coaching badges?

 

[Kianig89]

The classic fast bowlers action is side on which means he can generate outswing. Open chested refers to those bowlers who don't get properly side on and face their chest to the batsman. This can generate more speed, but makes outswing very difficult. You could watch a video on youtube, that would probably be more instructive.

In domestic cricket in Pakistan upto couple of years back they were not using some other balls not the kookaburra, similary bowlers don't focus on fitness and stamina, take for example though he generates 150kph speed but look at body vs Mark.wood the latter looks a complete athlete unlike the former.

Bowlers like Naseem Shah Muhammad Hasnain are being ruined. In the past Usman Shinwari use to generate a lot.of swing but we destroyed him with Waqar Azhar all teaching him their wisdom.

 

[Major]

So basically there is a lack of technical knowledge about the art of fast bowling, similar to what @Kianig89 is also saying. If I recall correctly, didn't the 7ft bowler Mohammed Irfan come from a lorry driving background in the UAE? It just seems there is no infrastructure at all in Pakistan cricket. Are there even any coaching badges?

no that was Abdul Haq.

 

[jnaveen1980]

So basically there is a lack of technical knowledge about the art of fast bowling, similar to what @Kianig89 is also saying. If I recall correctly, didn't the 7ft bowler Mohammed Irfan come from a lorry driving background in the UAE? It just seems there is no infrastructure at all in Pakistan cricket. Are there even any coaching badges?

You have one of the greatest bowler of all time. Wasim Akram. He can easily impart this knowledge to these players. Unfortunately clock speed is hyped way too much. People get carried away. Whatever Bumrah/Siraj/Shami do here is test match bowling. Same 3/4 length nipping the ball around. I think only way these guys master this by playing a lot of test matches. T20 doesn't allow you to develop as a bowler as much as Test matches

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

You have one of the greatest bowler of all time. Wasim Akram. He can easily impart this knowledge to these players. Unfortunately clock speed is hyped way too much. People get carried away. Whatever Bumrah/Siraj/Shami do here is test match bowling. Same 3/4 length nipping the ball around. I think only way these guys master this by playing a lot of test matches. T20 doesn't allow you to develop as a bowler as much as Test matches

Wasim Akram also came into cricket very raw, he had barely played any first class cricket when he burst onto the scene. He just happened to have his own weird action which generated enormous swing both ways. Pakistan shouldn't be relying on former superstars to do the coaching either, you need qualified coaches to teach the basics like seam, wrist position, body angle etc.

My point being that there seems to be no consideration at all given to new ball expertise. Everyone in Pakistan is basically geared up to bowl with the old ball.

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

In domestic cricket in Pakistan upto couple of years back they were not using some other balls not the kookaburra, similary bowlers don't focus on fitness and stamina, take for example though he generates 150kph speed but look at body vs Mark.wood the latter looks a complete athlete unlike the former.

Bowlers like Naseem Shah Muhammad Hasnain are being ruined. In the past Usman Shinwari use to generate a lot.of swing but we destroyed him with Waqar Azhar all teaching him their wisdom.

Shinwari was a medium pacer from what I remember, I think that was his main issue.

 

[kron]

Irfanullah
And sameen gul
Arghaf Iqbal
For tests

Odi
Zeeshan
Zaman
Ihansullah

Same as above for t20

 

[shortbread]

This has bothered me for years now, and it's probably come up in several threads about new ball skills in various threads, but I just wanted to look at it from a different perspective.

We have had several bowlers who bowl relatively fast down the years, but is there a reason why we seem to produce so many who bowl with brave heart and therefore inevitably slant the ball into the batsman's legs? Rauf and Wasim Jr. both do, Hasan does as well to a lesser extent, and Wahab did this as well although as a leftie.

I didn't watch the India game today but I saw Shami bowling a few days ago, he's presents a great seam and gets it to cut both ways, and I saw one ball from Siraj and that cut away to clean bowl the batsman. India has some fine fast bowlers at this time.

Why is it Indian bowlers seem to understand that bowling isn't just about slinging it in as fast as you can, but that there is also an art to using the new ball, while Pak bowlers look like they've come directly from tape ball to international cricket? Are there no coaches in Pakistan? Are new balls not considered worth wasting time on because you can just wait for the ball to get 40 overs old and it will start to reverse?

I think among all the crafts in cricket pacers followed by WK's need consistent off periods from the game. Helps their bodies recuperate as well as assess their own game. When commentators talk about bowlers losing technique, pace, swing etc... it's simply their bodies coping and overcoming various niggles while coming up to the bowling crease.

Everyone keeps targeting the Pakistani pacers, but they play the most amount of cricket compared to fast bowlers from any other nation. When not on national duty they sign up for every T20 league there is, if not then English county and if neither of these are available, then some random non descript league in the Middle East.

You bring any new bowler to the current set up and in a couple of years of going through the same grind, they'll regress as well. Where do they even get time to recuperate, fix their flaws or improve their skills?

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I think among all the crafts in cricket pacers followed by WK's need consistent off periods from the game. Helps their bodies recuperate as well as assess their own game. When commentators talk about bowlers losing technique, pace, swing etc... it's simply their bodies coping and overcoming various niggles while coming up to the bowling crease.

Everyone keeps targeting the Pakistani pacers, but they play the most amount of cricket compared to fast bowlers from any other nation. When not on national duty they sign up for every T20 league there is, if not then English county and if neither of these are available, then some random non descript league in the Middle East.

You bring any new bowler to the current set up and in a couple of years of going through the same grind, they'll regress as well. Where do they even get time to recuperate, fix their flaws or improve their skills?

I understand this argument, we actually saw this happen with Waqar Younis who started off with a side on action, got a stress fracture of the back and then switched to a more open chested action to cope with the strain better. He actually adapted his bowling and was still effective because of just how good he was.

But from what I've seen, even young bowlers like Rauf and Wasim Jr are using this action, Wahab did it right from the off. Open chested slinging action which generates pace through the air, but will only slant into the batsman's legs. It's fine with the old ball, but you lose any effectiveness with the new one. It seems more a lack of cricket knowledge, probably due to a lack of proper coaching in Pakistan.

 

[shortbread]

It seems more a lack of cricket knowledge, probably due to a lack of proper coaching in Pakistan.

I would disagree. I do not know the grassroots coaching quality but once these players reach the first class stage, where else in the world will have better fast bowling intelligentsia than Pakistan? Forget Wasim, Waqar but folk like Asif, perhaps if not for circumstances would have easily been among the best in the world. In his prime I have not seen any other man make the ball dance to his tunes like Asif did. He does ad-hoc coaching jobs is what I last heard of him.

 

[gani999]

You have one of the greatest bowler of all time. Wasim Akram. He can easily impart this knowledge to these players. Unfortunately clock speed is hyped way too much. People get carried away. Whatever Bumrah/Siraj/Shami do here is test match bowling. Same 3/4 length nipping the ball around. I think only way these guys master this by playing a lot of test matches. T20 doesn't allow you to develop as a bowler as much as Test matches

Wasim was once lamenting in a talk show that while even India bowlers would come to him and ask questions, none of the young Pak bowlers ever came to him for any advice. He and other retired Pak players were always available but the Pak youngsters don't seem to have the culture of learning from their greats. This is where India differs significantly. Indian players always seem to be picking the brains of former players, both from India and abroad. They have the hunger to learn and improve their game. Much of India's performances can be attributed to this.

 

[YousafTheBeast]

India don’t get excited when a bowler bowls 147+, Pakistan does.

One good season in the IPL doesn’t mean that bowler will be an automatic selection for India. In Pakistan all you need is 2-3 good games in the PSL and you’re a superstar, you have hundreds of fans, you got insta reels with Sidhu playing in the background with the F1 car noise effect as soon as the ball passes the batsman.

 

[JaDed]

Wasim was once lamenting in a talk show that while even India bowlers would come to him and ask questions, none of the young Pak bowlers ever came to him for any advice. He and other retired Pak players were always available but the Pak youngsters don't seem to have the culture of learning from their greats. This is where India differs significantly. Indian players always seem to be picking the brains of former players, both from India and abroad. They have the hunger to learn and improve their game. Much of India's performances can be attributed to this.

This is something Kohli said as well about Pakistani batsmen.

 

[JaDed]

India don’t get excited when a bowler bowls 147+, Pakistan does.

One good season in the IPL doesn’t mean that bowler will be an automatic selection for India. In Pakistan all you need is 2-3 good games in the PSL and you’re a superstar, you have hundreds of fans, you got insta reels with Sidhu playing in the background with the F1 car noise effect as soon as the ball passes the batsman.

We get excited too but the Indian management is a more smarter than the Pakistani one and try to manage workloads training etcz

 

[Cpt. Rishwat]

I would disagree. I do not know the grassroots coaching quality but once these players reach the first class stage, where else in the world will have better fast bowling intelligentsia than Pakistan? Forget Wasim, Waqar but folk like Asif, perhaps if not for circumstances would have easily been among the best in the world. In his prime I have not seen any other man make the ball dance to his tunes like Asif did. He does ad-hoc coaching jobs is what I last heard of him.

This was said by an earlier poster as well, to learn of Wasim Akram and other former greats, but that is not formal coaching. It also depends if those superstars have the time to spare or inclination. You need proper qualified coaches and institutionalised coaching. In England which isn't even a cricket mad country we have specialised coaching and different levels of coaching whereby you go from beginner to advanced with badges and certificates to indicate expertise.

In Pakistan it seems to be turn up at the nets and see if another player likes you. Or maybe you have an uncle high up in the civil service or armed forces.

 

[hassan918]

I have never seen Pakistan bowlers conceding so many runs in a tournament. Today, once again Shaheen, Haris and Hasan conceded 257 runs in 30 overs against New Zealand.

 

[Marooned]

Overreaction. Most attacks have suffered this worldcup.

Starc (41), Boult (38), Hazlewood(31), etc all average over 30 this worldcup and these are top top white ball bowlers.

You probably would respond that your post deals with something general so I reply in advance that your post wouldn't exist if our bowlers were performing well.

 

[ghalib kichlu]

We get excited too but the Indian management is a more smarter than the Pakistani one and try to manage workloads training etcz

Shaheen still got to number one in the world
Just shows pakistani bowling will always be magical and methodical when it clicks together

 

[Bewal Express]

Wasim was once lamenting in a talk show that while even India bowlers would come to him and ask questions, none of the young Pak bowlers ever came to him for any advice. He and other retired Pak players were always available but the Pak youngsters don't seem to have the culture of learning from their greats. This is where India differs significantly. Indian players always seem to be picking the brains of former players, both from India and abroad. They have the hunger to learn and improve their game. Much of India's performances can be attributed to this.

Most overated thing in cricket is the advice rubbish. These are not children, they are a grown men and should be able to figure out what they need to do to improve. My lad bowls left arm Chinaman and it took us all of 2 minutes to look at what makes Yadav better than my son. He can then take some of that and practice, he doesn't need to fly to Ind to ask Yadav for advice.

 

[Kianig89]

Naseem, SSA, WasimJr., Hasnain, Zaman, Ihsanullah
These 6 bowlers should be over go to players for next 3_ 4 series just invest in these guys

 

[kron]

Naseem, SSA, WasimJr., Hasnain, Zaman, Ihsanullah
These 6 bowlers should be over go to players for next 3_ 4 series just invest in these guys

Irfannulah and Mohammed ali as well.
Sameen gul

 

[zarak]

Naseem is the only guy that can match the current Indian attack skill for skill. He has great speed of the pitch and lovely control over lengths and his wrist.

 

[zarak]

That being said it would be nice to see the Indian attack bowl first on a flat track against a top team. They have played Aus, England, South Africa on slowish tracks. bowling first against South Africa in Bangalore would be great to see

 

[IAJ]

Mohammad Asif and Mohammad Aamir were the last bowlers I saw who actually bowled with a plan, I mean they often understood the conditions and knew the weaknesses of the batsmen. We have seen Asif bowling beautifully to some of the finest batsmen in the game, and also how Mohammad Aamir set up Tilkarante Dilshan in that 2009 Word T20 final. I believe he was only 17 back then?

And when I see the current bowlers there is no plan whatsoever. Even Shahen Shah Afridi just keeps looking for swing upfront, no matter who he is bowling to or in what conditions. If it's not swinging he is still bowling same length and get's spanked. Haris Rauf just comes in and tries to bowl as fast as he can and the ball goes even quicker out of the ground.

Can we blame the bowling coaches for this? Or the blowers are simply not intelligent or skillful enough to learn? I mean every batsman, even Kohli, must have some weaknesses, some batsmen are poor on off side, some struggle with short pitched deliveries. But we allways bowl at a batsman's strength.

Just look how Imam ul Haq was exposed in this WC and, getting continuously getting out to short balls and eventually he was replaced by Fakhar.

I am not even going to speak about spin bowling here, but having produced so many great pacers in past it's sad to see pakistani quicks bowl nowadays. All the best for the tour Down Under.

 

[Farabi]

There's an excessive fixation on pace; once it falls below 140, criticism starts. However, leading pacers like Shami, Boult, Henry, Cummins, and Hazelwood average between 130-140, yet we scrutinize if Shaheen falls in that range.

A divide emerged between experience and fast bowling, claiming "fast bowling doesn't need experience." The major issue lies in insufficient domestic experience and skill development. Our bowlers are 20-25, while opponents are 28-33, creating a significant experience gap. The nuanced skills and art of setting up batters develop with time. Domestic List A and FC performers are not given enough opportunities. PSL performers are preferred.

The constant rotation of fast bowlers, driven by the obsession with speed and lack of rehab facilities, is problematic. Our bowlers lose their edge after injuries—Amir, Junaid, Hassan Ali, Ruman, Usman Shinwari—resulting in a lost generation. This is worsened by no1 and no2 above.

 

[Sher Khan]

Mohammad Asif and Mohammad Aamir were the last bowlers I saw who actually bowled with a plan, I mean they often understood the conditions and knew the weaknesses of the batsmen. We have seen Asif bowling beautifully to some of the finest batsmen in the game, and also how Mohammad Aamir set up Tilkarante Dilshan in that 2009 Word T20 final. I believe he was only 17 back then?

And when I see the current bowlers there is no plan whatsoever. Even Shahen Shah Afridi just keeps looking for swing upfront, no matter who he is bowling to or in what conditions. If it's not swinging he is still bowling same length and get's spanked. Haris Rauf just comes in and tries to bowl as fast as he can and the ball goes even quicker out of the ground.

Can we blame the bowling coaches for this? Or the blowers are simply not intelligent or skillful enough to learn? I mean every batsman, even Kohli, must have some weaknesses, some batsmen are poor on off side, some struggle with short pitched deliveries. But we allways bowl at a batsman's strength.

Just look how Imam ul Haq was exposed in this WC and, getting continuously getting out to short balls and eventually he was replaced by Fakhar.

I am not even going to speak about spin bowling here, but having produced so many great pacers in past it's sad to see pakistani quicks bowl nowadays. All the best for the tour Down Under.

I agree wholeheartedly with you. The current lot are one trick ponies. They seem incapable of developing a Plan B or C.

With Shaheen every batsman knows he will bowl full and try to swing it in to a RHB. Haris just sprays the ball all over the place and gets hammered.

Even the likes of Sohail Khan and at times Umar Gul had a plan on how to bowl to certain batsman.

A bowling coach can't give you bowling intelligence our there on the field during game time.