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Pakistani women in the UK are 'shockingly badly integrated'

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Pakistani women are living in 'entirely different society' and are 'shockingly badly integrated' in UK says Cabinet Office survey

Findings of the UK's first disparity audit are set to be published on Tuesday

Pakistani women who do not speak English or work are living in 'different society'

Another survey shows Asian families will be worst hit by benefit and service cuts

Disparity also between white Britons and ethnic minorities in employment levels

Dame Louise Casey has criticised UK's integration policies in recent months

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.da...ani-women-UK-shockingly-badly-integrated.html
 
Of course if you cant speak the native language you will struggle in society.

But there is no law to integrate, you are allowed to live in any way you like as long as you don't break any laws.
 
KingKhanWC said:
Of course if you cant speak the native language you will struggle in society.

But there is no law to integrate, you are allowed to live in any way you like as long as you don't break any laws.
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I think this survey should have left Faryal out of it :ashwin
 
Yes it is true to a extent but why single out Pakistani’s? That is Daily Mail for you.

In a lot of cases, the husband does not want the wife to work..not because they are opressing them..but because they would rather work and bring in the income. People tend to misunderstand them.
 
KingKhanWC said:
Of course if you cant speak the native language you will struggle in society.

But there is no law to integrate, you are allowed to live in any way you like as long as you don't break any laws.
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Why can't they go work out like rest of the desi females ?
 
in_cutter said:
Yes it is true to a extent but why single out Pakistani’s? That is Daily Mail for you.

In a lot of cases, the husband does not want the wife to work..not because they are opressing them..but because they would rather work and bring in the income. People tend to misunderstand them.
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Tend to work and commit benefit fraud

Child tax credits should be for 3 children
Would have made a huge impact then to the survey
 
how can someone stay in a country and not naturally pick up the language is beyond me
 
How is it possible that the women of the house are badly integrated, and the men of the house are not as badly integrated?

It has to be both or nothing.
 
Varun said:
How is it possible that the women of the house are badly integrated, and the men of the house are not as badly integrated?

It has to be both or nothing.
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In Pakistani culture, the man is usually expected to be the breadwinner and the women are usually responsible for the home. So in Britain, this usually translates as the men being out more in society and women staying in and keeping the home and family life in order.

In reality it's becoming less and less practical as modern life is geared towards households with two incomes at the lower rung. If the husband is earning big money then the wife will often not work anyway.
 
The Daily Mail constantly write ** all the time, I can't take their articles seriously. Integration policies being criticised? This is ridiculous tbh, if someone comes to England and does not know the language when living their it's not really anyone's fault but theirs, or the person who brought them there.

I've seen foreign sportsman come to this country and not know the language, and live here for several years. It's not a problem that the UK should have to deal with. Pointless article.
 
WC-Passion said:
The Daily Mail constantly write ** all the time, I can't take their articles seriously. Integration policies being criticised? This is ridiculous tbh, if someone comes to England and does not know the language when living their it's not really anyone's fault but theirs, or the person who brought them there.

I've seen foreign sportsman come to this country and not know the language, and live here for several years. It's not a problem that the UK should have to deal with. Pointless article.
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Good point. Sergio Aguero & Marouane Fellaini have been in England for many years now but both cant speak English.
 
Iirc literacy rate of Pak females far suppresses their males.
 
Here we go with the monthly Brit-Pak bashing thread..
 
What is the age group for these women? Obviously older women who didn't speak English before are not going to pick it up even after spending decades in England.
 
sshakir411 said:
What is the age group for these women? Obviously older women who didn't speak English before are not going to pick it up even after spending decades in England.
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It's just the usual anti Muslim anti Pakistani bashing by hate filled media and some politicians.

There are hundreds of thousands of eastern Europeans who cant speak English. Many factories or workplaces have put signs in the native language of such immigrants.

Anyone who as come from a non-English speaking country will struggle with English (unless educated). But their children will be fine.
 
Integration can happen at work place.

I have not seen one Pakistani women at any place I worked before. It is clear that in Pak culture, Women are discouraged from taking up careers and work outside their home.
 
KingKhanWC said:
It's just the usual anti Muslim anti Pakistani bashing by hate filled media and some politicians.

There are hundreds of thousands of eastern Europeans who cant speak English. Many factories or workplaces have put signs in the native language of such immigrants.

Anyone who as come from a non-English speaking country will struggle with English (unless educated). But their children will be fine.
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Those Eastern Euro women may not speak English. But the do work outside of their home. Their culture does not discourage their females from taking up a career.

Here, I see tons of Mexicans and South American women at work places. Some are into well paid jobs even though their English is not that good and they have thick accent which is extremely hard to follow. Many are into cleaning, maid jobs and other low end jobs. They all still work and try their best to learn American ways, language. The effort is there to integrate.
 
troodon said:
Integration can happen at work place.

I have not seen one Pakistani women at any place I worked before. It is clear that in Pak culture, Women are discouraged from taking up careers and work outside their home.
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Where exactly do you live? I have no Indian women at my job and I work for a Fortune 10...I guess the Indian culture discourages Indian women from taking up careers outside of their homes.
 
troodon said:
Those Eastern Euro women may not speak English. But the do work outside of their home. Their culture does not discourage their females from taking up a career.

Here, I see tons of Mexicans and South American women at work places. Some are into well paid jobs even though their English is not that good and they have thick accent which is extremely hard to follow. Many are into cleaning, maid jobs and other low end jobs. They all still work and try their best to learn American ways, language. The effort is there to integrate.
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If a woman wants to be a housewife its her right, this is how families have lived throughout history. Plenty do work, read the links posted above. If they were white skinned, drank alcohol and dressed like most English women, nobody would care just like they dont about eastern Europeans women who cant even ask for a packet of chewing gum in a shop.
 
KingKhanWC said:
If a woman wants to be a housewife its her right, this is how families have lived throughout history. Plenty do work, read the links posted above. If they were white skinned, drank alcohol and dressed like most English women, nobody would care just like they dont about eastern Europeans women who cant even ask for a packet of chewing gum in a shop.
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I am not going to believe one bit that overwhelming majority of Pakistani women do not want to work and contribute to their family.
What has drinking alcohal and white skinned got to do with integration?

You can be part of the group and not drink. Western people are broad minded and they understand if you do not choose to drink.
 
The article might be biased (it's daily mail) but there are some issues w.r.t female employment ,it's naive to think that all Pakistani women make a choice to be a housewife.
[MENTION=141520]troodon[/MENTION] ,I had a Pakistani woman as a client before,she was too soft didn't last long,but I did have one.

I genuinely feel there is a difference between Pakistani American and British women,in terms of work culture former being more into work and education (things probably are changing),but again small sample size.
 
Of course there's an issue. My own mother's lived here as long as I have and she can't barely speak a word of English nor has she ever worked, my Dad's more than happy to have her as a housewife. It won't be PC to admit it on this forum but it's not a culture that I like. I think there is big issue of misogyny perpetuated out of a village culture mentality, add a drop of conservative ideals of religion and you get this situation of Pakistani women at the bottom of the barrel. I would hate to have been born a girl even in Britain.
 
[MENTION=141520]troodon[/MENTION] most Pakistani-American women work and that too in high paying fields, your use of anecdotal experiences as "proof" is a sign of unintelligence. Pakistanis have a much smaller community in America than either Indians, Hispanics, and other Asians. We barely have a half a million people here compared to other communities that twice or even 4 times as many people as we do, so of course we're gonna have much lower visibility. Moroever fewer Pakistani women work in tech and they work in other high paying fields like healthcare, the tech field here is dominated by low skilled South Indian computer geeks. Since you live in the metroplex, i bet you work in tech like every other indian in D town :)) :)) :))
 
I know many more Pakistani millionaires in America than Indian millionaire so that must mean Pakistanis are richer than indians here? You can't make generalizations based off your anecdotal experiences, lol can't reason with fobs.
 
Pakistanian said:
[MENTION=141520]troodon[/MENTION] most Pakistani-American women work and that too in high paying fields, your use of anecdotal experiences as "proof" is a sign of unintelligence. Pakistanis have a much smaller community in America than either Indians, Hispanics, and other Asians. We barely have a half a million people here compared to other communities that twice or even 4 times as many people as we do, so of course we're gonna have much lower visibility. Moroever fewer Pakistani women work in tech and they work in other high paying fields like healthcare, the tech field here is dominated by low skilled South Indian computer geeks. Since you live in the metroplex, i bet you work in tech like every other indian in D town :)) :)) :))
Click to expand...

There is a huge difference in Amercian-Pakistani and British-Pakistani. In fact, there is a significant difference in American-Desis as compared to Brits-Desis.

Most South Asian Americans moved to the US for education or as highly skilled migrants and are usually more integrated into the society. Brits on the other hand moved generally as mill workers in the 50s and 60s and had no education and were generally from backward families and villages. They have passed on that mentality to the next generation as well.

Though, you will find that most south asians moving to Britain are now moving for education or as highly skilled workers, and generally these guys and their future generations will be a lot more integrated with the society than those who moved to Britain as low skilled workers.
 
The economic argument in this is simple.

Another member of the household working = 2 sources of income = more money.
 
Varun said:
The economic argument in this is simple.

Another member of the household working = 2 sources of income = more money.
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And who will take care of the elderly and kids at home? Can they be entrusted to a domestic help. What about kids having to grow up without proper time from parents.
 
CricketCartoons said:
And who will take care of the elderly and kids at home? Can they be entrusted to a domestic help.
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I didn't finish.

More money = fewer kids = born later = greater independence = more bang for the buck to have them taken care of anyway that is needed.

And the parents don't work on the moon. They'll get enough time with their kids no problem.
 
Pakistanian said:
I know many more Pakistani millionaires in America than Indian millionaire so that must mean Pakistanis are richer than indians here? You can't make generalizations based off your anecdotal experiences, lol can't reason with fobs.
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You should be the last person to comment on generalization which is evident with your post on generalization itself :facepalm: ,just because you learnt a new word today doesn't mean you go on forming multiple sentences with it.
 
Boi said:
Here we go with the monthly Brit-Pak bashing thread..
Click to expand...

These are my favourite threads, I wish we could get more of them. It's always a real disappointment when the bashers skulk away and stop replying, I'm always game to keep going.
 
troodon said:
I am not going to believe one bit that overwhelming majority of Pakistani women do not want to work and contribute to their family.
What has drinking alcohal and white skinned got to do with integration?

You can be part of the group and not drink. Western people are broad minded and they understand if you do not choose to drink.
Click to expand...

You'd be surprised. Pakistani women who actually come from Pakistan want to do anything but work usually, most of them are quite happy to stay home and do housework, because they know even if they do work, they'll end up doing it anyway so they get two lots of work in reality. It's the same for Indian women for the most part, desi men don't take kindly to cooking and cleaning.

Even the Pakistani women who are born here have the same dilemma as all women when it comes to career, and that is balancing it with having a family. It's a lot easier to have a career for those who decide not to have kids.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
You'd be surprised. Pakistani women who actually come from Pakistan want to do anything but work usually, most of them are quite happy to stay home and do housework, because they know even if they do work, they'll end up doing it anyway so they get two lots of work in reality. It's the same for Indian women for the most part, desi men don't take kindly to cooking and cleaning.

Even the Pakistani women who are born here have the same dilemma as all women when it comes to career, and that is balancing it with having a family. It's a lot easier to have a career for those who decide not to have kids.
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Please convey that to my wife.. I end up doing dishes, feeding my son and putting him to bed every evening :(
 
vagabond007ti said:
Please convey that to my wife.. I end up doing dishes, feeding my son and putting him to bed every evening :(
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I said for the most part for precisely that reason, that means there will be individual examples which may not conform to that model.

I do know of examples of women who are married to immigrants and because the wives are the earners, they are the ones who work while the father stays at home.
 
England has a sense of laziness associated with it compared to America. When I visited the country, everybody seemed far too relaxed and everything far too small.
 
Varun said:
You need to elaborate on this to actually make your case.
Click to expand...

I would have thought it's pretty obvious, if one partner has a very high income, then you don't really need both people to be working. Usually if there is family involved, one might choose to stay home and tend to them.
 
Cpt. Rishwat said:
I would have thought it's pretty obvious, if one partner has a very high income, then you don't really need both people to be working. Usually if there is family involved, one might choose to stay home and tend to them.
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...and if the other also has an income, then it leads to higher income.

It comes down to the choice of sacrificing money to stay at home for an extra 5-8 hours a day, nothing else.
 
Varun said:
...and if the other also has an income, then it leads to higher income.

It comes down to the choice of sacrificing money to stay at home for an extra 5-8 hours a day, nothing else.
Click to expand...

I know people who are actually in this situation and if there are kids involved then quite often one of them will stay at home and see to their needs, especially if they are very young. There is always the option of hiring a nanny, but mothers sometimes don't want to do that, especially if the money isn't a real issue.
 
Varun said:
...and if the other also has an income, then it leads to higher income.

It comes down to the choice of sacrificing money to stay at home for an extra 5-8 hours a day, nothing else.
Click to expand...

If one person is making pretty high money then other person not working and taking care of young kids is not uncommon. If you make 300K in US then you can comfortably live anywhere and I often see women not working when kids are young and eventually they start working when kids are school age. Making another 100K on top is not going to change their quality of life too much when young kids are involved.
 
troodon said:
Integration can happen at work place.

I have not seen one Pakistani women at any place I worked before. It is clear that in Pak culture, Women are discouraged from taking up careers and work outside their home.
Click to expand...



It depends where you worked.

This has nothing to do with Pakistani culture, everything to do with lack of education, therefore, lack of aspiration.

The women this data is referring to are from rural communities in Pakistan, where tradition is accorded the status of a religion, in practice, this means women are not only discouraged from obtaining an education, they themselves do not want their daughters (or daughters-in-law) to obtain one either.

I know such people are described as 'pendus' - a very derogatory word - but that is unfair, as education, work and careers are not regarded as important as family, children and community.

In cities and towns, the situation is different, where girls attend schools, colleges and universities, and where work and careers are not treated like heretical concepts.

My Mother worked in offices in Pakistan from the age of 16, many of her colleagues were female too, both Christian and Muslim; her family and relatives - male and female - were/are educated, the same goes for my Father. When they migrated to the UK, Mum continued to work, with my Father opposing the idea of a woman wasting her education by remaining at home, and so, we were brought up by both our parents. My sisters/sisters-in-law work, so too did I.

In brief, I do not think it is accurate or even fair to generalise. One should engage in proper study in order to understand the dynamics that are in play in different communities.
 
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MosquitoMan said:
Of course there's an issue. My own mother's lived here as long as I have and she can't barely speak a word of English nor has she ever worked, my Dad's more than happy to have her as a housewife. It won't be PC to admit it on this forum but it's not a culture that I like. I think there is big issue of misogyny perpetuated out of a village culture mentality, add a drop of conservative ideals of religion and you get this situation of Pakistani women at the bottom of the barrel. I would hate to have been born a girl even in Britain.
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If you're a Pakistani Muslim, then I'm Micky Mouse.

You despise your own culture and feel your own mother and father are backwards? lol
 
KingKhanWC said:
If you're a Pakistani Muslim, then I'm Micky Mouse.

You despise your own culture and feel your own mother and father are backwards? lol
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I feel some of the practices of my parents are backwards,doesn't mean it makes them backwards,just some practices,not sure what's wrong in having a different thought process compared to parents?
 
JaDed said:
I feel some of the practices of my parents are backwards,doesn't mean it makes them backwards,just some practices,not sure what's wrong in having a different thought process compared to parents?
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He/She believes the culture of his parents is backward. Try reading the post or better still allow him to respond.
 
In fairness the South Asian woman is probably one of the demographic types that you see "out and about" the least in the UK, nevertheless there are many important tasks to be fulfilled at home, particularly when children start arriving, so no problems here really.

If anything there should be an equal amount of critique, of the inverse type, directed at western parents who are determined to both work full-time even after they have kids. Ideally we need to reconsider the idea that one of the couple (yes, often the woman but would not always be so) should either reduce their hours or give up work - otherwise European and North American families will keep getting smaller and smaller.
 
KingKhanWC said:
If you're a Pakistani Muslim, then I'm Micky Mouse.

You despise your own culture and feel your own mother and father are backwards? lol
Click to expand...

Logic isn't quite your strong point is it? I never said that I felt that my parents are backwards. I'm critiquing culture.
 
And I never claimed that I was a 'Pakistani Muslim'. But I'm certainly Pakistani Muslim of origin, born there and of Pakistani parents. Make of that what you will. Do you feel that insecure when you come across a self reflective Pakistani, especially of a British kind like me who wonders why we're performing so poorly amongst minorities? It's easy for you to dismiss our negative image in Britain at the moment but not for me.
 
Pakistanian said:
lol 2001?! Dude that source is so old.
Click to expand...

I am 100% sure that Pakistan and BD will still be two standout groups. You can't reverse this trend so quickly. Anyway, data was updated in 2007 after taking base from 2001.
 
MosquitoMan said:
Logic isn't quite your strong point is it? I never said that I felt that my parents are backwards. I'm critiquing culture.
Click to expand...

MosquitoMan said:
And I never claimed that I was a 'Pakistani Muslim'. But I'm certainly Pakistani Muslim of origin, born there and of Pakistani parents. Make of that what you will. Do you feel that insecure when you come across a self reflective Pakistani, especially of a British kind like me who wonders why we're performing so poorly amongst minorities? It's easy for you to dismiss our negative image in Britain at the moment but not for me.
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lol.

You wrote:

"My own mother's lived here as long as I have and she can't barely speak a word of English nor has she ever worked, my Dad's more than happy to have her as a housewife. It won't be PC to admit it on this forum but it's not a culture that I like. I think there is big issue of misogyny perpetuated out of a village culture mentality"

You are not happy your own mother cant barely speak a word of English. This is your own mother you are talking about, remember this. You then go on to say it's a culture you do not like because it's misogynistic. This means you believe it's prejudiced against women born out of village. You believe the culture is backward but you're parents arent backward for following it to the letter?

Now you are saying you never claimed to be a Pakistani Muslim but are certainly Pakistani Muslim of origin? So I assume you are suggesting you are no longer a Muslim and somehow shed your Pakistani background too? lol
 
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KingKhanWC said:
You are not happy your own mother cant barely speak a word of English. This is your own mother you are talking about, remember this. You then go on to say it's a culture you do not like because it's misogynistic. This means you believe it's prejudiced against women born out of village. You believe the culture is backward but you're parents arent backward for following it to the letter?

Now you are saying you never claimed to be a Pakistani Muslim but are certainly Pakistani Muslim of origin? So I assume you are suggesting you are no longer a Muslim and somehow shed your Pakistani background too? lol
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Yes this is my own mother I'm talking about, I think I know my family more than you do. If you feel insecure that I'm making critiques of my own family's culture and their upbringing of me (where I have justifiable anger that goes beyond just the issue language I might add) then that's your problem. Pakistanis have been in this country for around half a decade and women here are still struggling. You want to tell me why that is or are going to continue to cocoon yourself in a victimhood narrative?
 
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This whole survey is quite misleading, it is only focusing on the 1st generation immigrants but people are reading into it like it covers all women and all future generations of women of Pakistani origin that reside in the UK.

Yes a women with no more then a high school education that grew up in Pakistan, Bangladesh or parts of the middle east and immigrated to the UK as a spouse would be more comfortable staying at home with the role of raising the children if financially stable then stacking shelves or other blue collar work, however the 2nd and currently 3rd generation of women you can class as of having Pakistani origins in the UK are actually confident and independent educated professionals from what i see, they may not drink, socialize, attend bars & clubs in the same proportion to other women in the UK but that does not make them 'shockingly badly integrated'.
 
Salman said:
This whole survey is quite misleading, it is only focusing on the 1st generation immigrants but people are reading into it like it covers all women and all future generations of women of Pakistani origin that reside in the UK.

Yes a women with no more then a high school education that grew up in Pakistan, Bangladesh or parts of the middle east and immigrated to the UK as a spouse would be more comfortable staying at home with the role of raising the children if financially stable then stacking shelves or other blue collar work, however the 2nd and currently 3rd generation of women you can class as of having Pakistani origins in the UK are actually confident and independent educated professionals from what i see, they may not drink, socialize, attend bars & clubs in the same proportion to other women in the UK but that does not make them 'shockingly badly integrated'.
Click to expand...

This is accurate. Without doubt the first generation Pakistani women will be less educated, especially if they come from very rural backgrounds, but that is true of most first generation immigrants from that background. There are also plenty of Pakistani immigrant women who are educated and they find employment a lot easier. Those born here pretty much usually have jobs once they leave school, I don't think they stay home any more than the rest of the population.
 
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