Pakistan's population explosion. Is it the biggest threat to the country's survival?

[Slog]

From 1998 to 2011 Pakistan's population went up by 62.7 million people and the population at the time was 20 million more than what the UN had forecasted.

The rate of Pakistan population growth has far outstripped that of its neighboring countries. Especially shocking is the control Bangladesh has managed over its population which mind you was greater than ours when they separated. But now Pakistan has in excess of 30 million people more than what Bangladesh has. Ofcourse there is some sampling bias due to Afghan refugees but you can cap it at max 10 million which is btw likely to be much less. But even accounting that the numbers are shocking
[MENTION=97523]Buffet[/MENTION] shared a chart outlining this:

Another chart outlining this is:

This is all shocking because in much else of the world the rate of population growth is declining and not increasing like for us.

A chart outlining the unbelievable increase in Pakistan's population from over the years:

If the current growth rates are maintained then our population will touch 350 million people by 2050

Now a few questions arise. Why has Bangladesh (and to a lesser extent India) managed to curtail the rate of growth so significantly when compares to us? This is what we first need to see and understand. Why have family planning inititives been successful there.

Secondly do you agree with the assertion that the population is the greatest threat? With so many people and limited and diminishing resources no wonder the country is a mess and extremism on the rise among the youth who have little to do.

Many other disadvantages too but it is really a source of concern

 

[Nostalgic]

More young people who won't receive educations due to limited resources and rampant corruption, ergo more young people for the Maulvi to brainwash. Just the other day I was watching a TV program where one person, quite obviously of the right-wing bend, was castigating those arguing for population control, because in his words, this was a Muslim army being prepared ("Musalmaanon ki Fauj tayyar ho rahi hai.")

This is a veritable ticking time bomb. The Maulvis have known for a while that they need to just play the waiting game and focus on the youth, and the future is theirs.

 

[Sattarbuksh]

If you ever ask a poor person in Pakistan why he continues to produce kids, his reply is; "Allah deta hai".

[utube]hA-abRsBKU8[/utube]​

 

[The_KING]

People in Pakistan need to be educated on contraception. If our country was a developed country, it wouldn't be much of an issue to have many kids but because we are a poor country we can't afford to have so many kids.

 

[RWAC]

Whoa that 3rd chart is exponential growth right there.

In my view based on casual observation, I see a direct relation between ascendancy into middle class and the # of children, at least for India. As educated (key word) people start having hopes of being able to break from the poor class to lower middle class, or from the lower middle class to the upper middle class, they tend to realize that having less kids allows them to concentrate the resources on the fewer kids. This gives them a better per capita 'return' from the investment they make in their kids.

That being said, a co-factor could be religious beliefs. If a person is religious and believes children are God's will, obviously they will tend to have more kids.

And then when you look at other studies, the relation starts to reverse. In developed countries, the rich tend to have more people than the poor. It's something during the transition from the poor to the middle class that seems to drive down the # of kids. So, the whole spectrum resembles a U-shaped curve.

BTW I thought Pakistan hasn't done a census since 1998?

 

[Buffet]

Whoa that 3rd chart is exponential growth right there.

In my view based on casual observation, I see a direct relation between ascendancy into middle class and the # of children, at least for India. As educated (key word) people start having hopes of being able to break from the poor class to lower middle class, or from the lower middle class to the upper middle class, they tend to realize that having less kids allows them to concentrate the resources on the fewer kids. This gives them a better per capita 'return' from the investment they make in their kids.

That being said, a co-factor could be religious beliefs. If a person is religious and believes children are God's will, obviously they will tend to have more kids.

And then when you look at other studies, the relation starts to reverse. In developed countries, the rich tend to have more people than the poor. It's something during the transition from the poor to the middle class that seems to drive down the # of kids. So, the whole spectrum resembles a U-shaped curve.

BTW I thought Pakistan hasn't done a census since 1998?

Agree with observations here.

I also recall reading that Pakistan has not done census for a long time. I think Pakistan will do census in near future. That's what I recall reading somewhere. Then you will get the exact figures. All figures before that will be based on previous figures and projection based on previous trends.

 

[Laal]

Whoa that 3rd chart is exponential growth right there.

In my view based on casual observation, I see a direct relation between ascendancy into middle class and the # of children, at least for India. As educated (key word) people start having hopes of being able to break from the poor class to lower middle class, or from the lower middle class to the upper middle class, they tend to realize that having less kids allows them to concentrate the resources on the fewer kids. This gives them a better per capita 'return' from the investment they make in their kids.

That being said, a co-factor could be religious beliefs. If a person is religious and believes children are God's will, obviously they will tend to have more kids.

And then when you look at other studies, the relation starts to reverse. In developed countries, the rich tend to have more people than the poor. It's something during the transition from the poor to the middle class that seems to drive down the # of kids. So, the whole spectrum resembles a U-shaped curve.

BTW I thought Pakistan hasn't done a census since 1998?

Yes. But Pakistan Bureau of Statistics does household surveys that samples a small percentage of the population every year. You can impute population based on that.

 

[godzilla]

i think it would be appropriate to see gdp per capita, tax/gdp ratio, economic growth, literacy rates, indebtedness and so on. the population growth i dont think is as worrying as the fact that the corruption has been so massive as to steal the future from that population growth.

people are assets. for a country that is already the sixth most populous in the world, pakistan ought to be at the forefront of several industries other than tax fraud and drug import/export. the reason it isnt is because of embezzlement, a massive underspend in education and the syphoning off of wealth to foreign tax havens by the embezzlers (who keep getting voted in and defended by people for reasons i cant fathom).

im of the opinion that if the population had been utilised as the asset it is, and had ben supported, educated and allowed to flourish in terms of industry, there would be very little worry both from the perspective of birth rates (developed nations tend to control that) and from the perspective of being able to cater for that expanding population anyway. unfortunately we are probably close, have passed or will soon pass that point of no return when population growth is too great and indebtedness is too great for any amount of investment into human capital to bear fruit in time to stave off a failed state.

as with most crooked baskets, the observation that governments in the past got away with it seems to give the two party incumbents the conviction that they can do the same without any effective penalty. unfortunately, exponential debt doesnt work like that as we can already see today for example in greece - it doesnt take much for a country to implode.

greece is the very obvious example, not in the way their crisis precipitated - that was due to crooked private banks in germany and france, tied to crooked profiteering governments all over europe - but in that it has exposed a dysfunctional economy which has been perched on two unstable pivots of tourism and foreign aid: that cannot make a functioning economy, and this has been the case for a couple of decades at least. the elite 20 families (in greece's case), own all the assets and pay no taxes too (as in most countries), to add to the squeeze on the proletariat. inevitably, when one of those economic legs breaks eg when the aid stops and the bailouts stop, the house of cards all comes collapsing down onto the poor fools who voted the embezzlers in in the first place.

the country runs out of cash, hyper inflation in the case of a sovereign currency, people cant buy things, riots, starvation, death blah blah mad max etc. (a basket of goods costs more in real terms in greece than it does in london at todays prices).

 

[mithun_minhas]

Poverty makes people have more kids as it means more hands to earn. That is the logic of labourers in India. Sure it is the same in Pak too.
All it does is create millions of malnourished, poor population who look for Government handouts or believe in God and religion more and more hoping for a better future in this life or in heaven. This is exactly what religion and its preachers want..

More misery, more adherents.

 

[Buffet]

Poverty makes people have more kids as it means more hands to earn. That is the logic of labourers in India. Sure it is the same in Pak too.
All it does is create millions of malnourished, poor population who look for Government handouts or believe in God and religion more and more hoping for a better future in this life or in heaven. This is exactly what religion and its preachers want..

More misery, more adherents.

It's certainly true but it can't be the entire story. BD is poorer when you compare it with India and Pakistan and yet they have lower fertility rate.

 

[Buffet]

Now a few questions arise. Why has Bangladesh (and to a lesser extent India) managed to curtail the rate of growth so significantly when compares to us? This is what we first need to see and understand. Why have family planning inititives been successful there.

Some old data points which simply shows the trend in how family planning in BD was more successful than Pakistan.



.


THE PERCENTAGE OF WOMEN USING ANY METHOD OF CONTRACEPTION IN PAKISTAN AND BANGLADESH 1975-95


Some reasons pointed out in article was,

1. In Pakistan more men than their wives reported knowing at least one method.
3. The gap between knowledge of a method and having a source of supply is especially wide in Pakistan.

http://www.gfmer.ch/Endo/PGC_network/South_asian_perspective_Samina.htm

---------------

I am probably taking a short cut here but in my opinion, reason may be related to female literacy rate being lower in Pakistan than BD. See below,

 

[Couch Cricketer]

Some old data points which simply shows the trend in how family planning in BD was more successful than Pakistan.

View attachment 57384

.


THE PERCENTAGE OF WOMEN USING ANY METHOD OF CONTRACEPTION IN PAKISTAN AND BANGLADESH 1975-95
View attachment 57385

Some reasons pointed out in article was,

1. In Pakistan more men than their wives reported knowing at least one method.
3. The gap between knowledge of a method and having a source of supply is especially wide in Pakistan.

http://www.gfmer.ch/Endo/PGC_network/South_asian_perspective_Samina.htm

---------------

I am probably taking a short cut here but in my opinion, reason may be related to female literacy rate being lower in Pakistan than BD. See below,

View attachment 57386

Apart from the literacy rate we also became more fundamentalist and conservative. With Mullahs coming out againstc contraception even the polio campaign was harmed because of these idiots. India and Bangladesh started their polio around similar time as us and succeeded and we failed.

 

[Slog]

Apart from the literacy rate we also became more fundamentalist and conservative. With Mullahs coming out againstc contraception even the polio campaign was harmed because of these idiots. India and Bangladesh started their polio around similar time as us and succeeded and we failed.

why has Bangladesh not faced the same problem then in its attempts

 

[Buffet]

why has Bangladesh not faced the same problem then in its attempts

Religion became the focal point in Pakistan and in BD it was language. It's easier to high jack religion to achieve anything you want when no one want to be seen as opposing anything related to religion. Preachers, politicians, army , dictators... list is long one who made use of this. Now doing the similar stuff many be difficult when religion is not the focal point.

May be religion is also a focal point in BD but it seems that less weight is given to religion when compared to Pakistan. Just thinking aloud here. I am not too familiar with BD history and I may be off target.

 

[Laal]

My reading of the issue is as follows.

Let me start by saying that I'm not a big fan of Thomas Malthus and his predecessors. Whatever the rate of population growth, historically it has been the case that food supply increases at least as fast, if not faster. Humans are conscious beings and have done amazing things to diffuse the so-called population bomb.

Now let me discuss the Pakistan specific case. What I say here is anchored in empirical evidence. This is not hear-say or speculation. Extremely important to understand the incentive structure that encourages the positive population growth. Some stylized facts are as follows:

1. Population growth in Pakistan is a symptom of slow income growth

2. Poor people, especially poor people living on farms, tend to have more children. This, of course, is motivated by "returns to scale" incentive and high infant mortality. These are also the people, who as a group, have lack of access to contraception

3. Population growth has slowed considerably amongst the urban population

4. Finally, as Fig. 1 shows, fertility rate is undergoing a secular decline in Pakistan

So based on these stylized facts, we can propose the following policies:

Grow the industrial sector and jump start rural-urban migration. Much more expensive to raise children in cities and "no returns to scale" incentive in the industrial sector. Improve access to health care and reduce infant mortality. Finally, Increase rural access to contraception. Culture or religion plays a minor role. Understand why people in rural Pakistan have more kids. And, then change the incentive structure. Obviously, all of these policies are easier said than done.

Is population growth the biggest threat to Pakistan? Absolutely not. Could be in the future.
Does it constrain economic growth? Depends. You could use population growth to your advantage! On the contrary, economic growth can curtail population growth. Finally, focus on culture or religion is very misguided. Pakistan is not a monolith. It has myriad cultures. Likewise, middle class tends to be more religion than the poor. Yet, fertility rates have declined faster amongst the middle class.

 

[Laal]

why has Bangladesh not faced the same problem then in its attempts

Bangladesh has a much larger population density than Pakistan. Access to population to spread awareness is an important factor here. In Pakistan, high population growth is limited to rural pockets: interior Sindh, South Punjab, Balochistan, and most of the KP. They are spread out.

 

[the Great Khan]

My reading of the issue is as follows.

Let me start by saying that I'm not a big fan of Thomas Malthus and his predecessors. Whatever the rate of population growth, historically it has been the case that food supply increases at least as fast, if not faster. Humans are conscious beings and have done amazing things to diffuse the so-called population bomb.

Now let me discuss the Pakistan specific case. What I say here is anchored in empirical evidence. This is not hear-say or speculation. Extremely important to understand the incentive structure that encourages the positive population growth. Some stylized facts are as follows:

1. Population growth in Pakistan is a symptom of slow income growth

2. Poor people, especially poor people living on farms, tend to have more children. This, of course, is motivated by "returns to scale" incentive and high infant mortality. These are also the people, who as a group, have lack of access to contraception

3. Population growth has slowed considerably amongst the urban population

4. Finally, as Fig. 1 shows, fertility rate is undergoing a secular decline in Pakistan

So based on these stylized facts, we can propose the following policies:

Grow the industrial sector and jump start rural-urban migration. Much more expensive to raise children in cities and "no returns to scale" incentive in the industrial sector. Improve access to health care and reduce infant mortality. Finally, Increase rural access to contraception. Culture or religion plays a minor role. Understand why people in rural Pakistan have more kids. And, then change the incentive structure. Obviously, all of these policies are easier said than done.

Is population growth the biggest threat to Pakistan? Absolutely not. Could be in the future.
Does it constrain economic growth? Depends. You could use population growth to your advantage! On the contrary, economic growth can curtail population growth. Finally, focus on culture or religion is very misguided. Pakistan is not a monolith. It has myriad cultures. Likewise, middle class tends to be more religion than the poor. Yet, fertility rates have declined faster amongst the middle class.

what kind of post is this? I mean it actually makes sense..and lo and behold a poster has used empirical evidence to back up their claims..somebody give this guy a medal..look buddy don't you know this is PP TimePass where everyone and anyone is a an expert on everything without an iota of evidence? look repeat after me: Large population very baad, small good? ok? Pakistan failed state. Ok? repeat over and over...

 

[Mamoon]

'Contraceptive methods are haram'

'Allah swt denay waala hai'

 

[Thivagar]

Hold up, are you saying 70 million people had been born from the time Shoaib Akhtar debuted and retired ?

 

[KB]

My reading of the issue is as follows.

Let me start by saying that I'm not a big fan of Thomas Malthus and his predecessors. Whatever the rate of population growth, historically it has been the case that food supply increases at least as fast, if not faster. Humans are conscious beings and have done amazing things to diffuse the so-called population bomb.

Now let me discuss the Pakistan specific case. What I say here is anchored in empirical evidence. This is not hear-say or speculation. Extremely important to understand the incentive structure that encourages the positive population growth. Some stylized facts are as follows:

1. Population growth in Pakistan is a symptom of slow income growth

2. Poor people, especially poor people living on farms, tend to have more children. This, of course, is motivated by "returns to scale" incentive and high infant mortality. These are also the people, who as a group, have lack of access to contraception

3. Population growth has slowed considerably amongst the urban population

4. Finally, as Fig. 1 shows, fertility rate is undergoing a secular decline in Pakistan

So based on these stylized facts, we can propose the following policies:

Grow the industrial sector and jump start rural-urban migration. Much more expensive to raise children in cities and "no returns to scale" incentive in the industrial sector. Improve access to health care and reduce infant mortality. Finally, Increase rural access to contraception. Culture or religion plays a minor role. Understand why people in rural Pakistan have more kids. And, then change the incentive structure. Obviously, all of these policies are easier said than done.

Is population growth the biggest threat to Pakistan? Absolutely not. Could be in the future.
Does it constrain economic growth? Depends. You could use population growth to your advantage! On the contrary, economic growth can curtail population growth. Finally, focus on culture or religion is very misguided. Pakistan is not a monolith. It has myriad cultures. Likewise, middle class tends to be more religion than the poor. Yet, fertility rates have declined faster amongst the middle class.

Some good points. And Laal is right to mention that population growth can in certain circumstances actually aid economic growth. China benefited from the 'demographic dividend' in the 1990s but is now projected, due to the one-child policy, to be facing a demographic liability and slower growth.

But for Pakistan to benefit from its youth bulge it will need deep reforms and sustained investment in education. The danger is that without this investment in education, Pakistan could be saddled with a rising population and diminishing resources.

One should also point out that Pakistan faces the danger of water shortages in the future. Much of Punjab that is part of Pakistan today, was transformed from 1890 with the commencement under the British of the building of perennial, as opposed to seasonal, canals. This was also accompanied with large-scale agricultural colonisation of previously uncultivated land.

But now some estimate that Pakistan could run 'dry' in the future, if no steps are taken to repair the irrigation system and address some of the environmental issues facing the country.

 

[Hamza_]

Unemployment is the worst issue.

 

[Lords]

Population is a major issue in all poor and developing countries. These countries are struggling hard to provide basics to existing population and any new growth only worsens the situation and stretches the resources thinner.

Population is a slow ticking time bomb which is easy to ignore by the govts with no backlash. Govts in growing and poor countries have more immediate issues to take care of which cannot wait.

Pakistan govt and its civil society has to work on a war footing on this front. Family planning has to be detached with religion and attach with economy of the family instead.

I used to see many people with 5-6 kids back in the days but now people are afraid of having more then 2 as it has become expensive and very competitive to raise more kids than that.

I believe SL is the best in family planning and managing resources in entire sub continent with nepal not too far behind. India is doing a fair job while BD has taken it very seriously. Pakistan and Afg are lagging behind. May be we all can learn something from SL who is better in many human welfare indices.

 

[Deosai]

If you ever ask a poor person in Pakistan why he continues to produce kids, his reply is; "Allah deta hai".

[utube]hA-abRsBKU8[/utube]​

Poor uneducated think like that around the world, Pakistani leftists only see pakistan and Muslims when they make such sweeping statements

 

[wrong `un]

Bangladesh has some of the largest NGOs in the world and they primarily focus on women empowerment, education for girls and promoting entrepreneurship of women through micro loans. Plus a lot of effort has been made to educate women and society in general that family planning(and contraception) has nothing to do with religion. Plus Bangladesh's main industry is now garments and 70% of the workforce is women there. So women are now becoming joint bread earners and the husbands are less inclined to let that go by having child after child.

 

[Moiza]

I had always been under the impression that the population of every country grows, some grow faster than the other but I was really shocked to see developed european countries at about the same population that they were at some 50 years ago.

Currently the biggest problem facing us is population, no government can bring us back from the Jahalat we have entered. There is a lecture by "DR" Zakir Naik where he asks the muslims to stop using contraceptions because bachay are Allah kee nehmat. A DOCTOR is saying this.

 

[Subaltern]

Whoa that 3rd chart is exponential growth right there.

In my view based on casual observation, I see a direct relation between ascendancy into middle class and the # of children, at least for India. As educated (key word) people start having hopes of being able to break from the poor class to lower middle class, or from the lower middle class to the upper middle class, they tend to realize that having less kids allows them to concentrate the resources on the fewer kids. This gives them a better per capita 'return' from the investment they make in their kids.

That being said, a co-factor could be religious beliefs. If a person is religious and believes children are God's will, obviously they will tend to have more kids.

And then when you look at other studies, the relation starts to reverse. In developed countries, the rich tend to have more people than the poor. It's something during the transition from the poor to the middle class that seems to drive down the # of kids. So, the whole spectrum resembles a U-shaped curve.

BTW I thought Pakistan hasn't done a census since 1998?

Your observation is a bit off the mark. Rise of middle-class doesn't curb population growth. Otherwise the upper-middle class rich gulf Arab nations would not have such an explosive population growth rate.

As case studies in Eastern Europe, China, western world, Japan, India, etc. show, the only 'unregulated' way to curb population growth is women's empowerment. Because when women are in charge of their lives and women can work, they don't want to spend an entire decade being pregnant and churn out 10 babies.
India's population growth rate is a lot lower than Paksitan's because Indian women have far more career opportunities and social acceptance as the working lady, than in Pakistan.
This is also why, despite having upper-middle class income, gulf arabs churn out so many babies- because the role of most native arab women in those countries is to do nothing, sit at home and make babies.

 

[big_gamer007]

Population is probably the biggest danger sub continent will be facing in coming years..

 

[Syed1]

I had always been under the impression that the population of every country grows, some grow faster than the other but I was really shocked to see developed european countries at about the same population that they were at some 50 years ago.

Currently the biggest problem facing us is population, no government can bring us back from the Jahalat we have entered. There is a lecture by "DR" Zakir Naik where he asks the muslims to stop using contraceptions because bachay are Allah kee nehmat. A DOCTOR is saying this.

Actually European countries will have negative population growth or just negligible growth if they didn't have immigration from developing countries.

Canada for a fact relies on inbound migration to boost economic growth. It is easier to bring fully trained engineers, doctors, financial analysts etc from other countries, offer them a good standard of living and let them contribute to the country's economy.

 

[Moiza]

Actually European countries will have negative population growth or just negligible growth if they didn't have immigration from developing countries.

Canada for a fact relies on inbound migration to boost economic growth. It is easier to bring fully trained engineers, doctors, financial analysts etc from other countries, offer them a good standard of living and let them contribute to the country's economy.

Asia, including India and China, are at least a good 30 40 years behind the developed world. The mainstream media and politicians (majority) haven't even recognized the population as a real source of problem. Asia is trying it's best to take the world down.

 

[Moiza]

A few hundred thousand/million tax payers from 39.5 million population of Pakistan (Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad) account for 83% of direct tax revenue of Pakistan. It's scary to think how useless majority of our population is. If our population was half of what it is today Pakistan would be a much better country, irrespective of the government.

 

[Subaltern]

By the way, this question is ambiguous.

The biggest threat to survival of nation-state of Paksitan is India.

The biggest threat to social stability and lifestyle improvement of the people living in the nation of Pakistan are islamic radicalization and explosive population growth. It is a bit of a judgement call between the two, in terms of immediate vs long-term and 'immediate alteration of long-term' consequences.

 

[last_knight]

I had always been under the impression that the population of every country grows, some grow faster than the other but I was really shocked to see developed european countries at about the same population that they were at some 50 years ago.

Currently the biggest problem facing us is population, no government can bring us back from the Jahalat we have entered. There is a lecture by "DR" Zakir Naik where he asks the muslims to stop using contraceptions because bachay are Allah kee nehmat. A DOCTOR is saying this.

If there is no human influx from third world countries into Europe, there infrastructure is doomed in 5 years.

Japan is closing 300 schools every year because there aren't enough kids for enrolment. This mean that 20 yes from now, there won't be enough adults to manage key infrastructure.

Agreed that European renaissance cam after the great plague wiped off almost half the population of Europe. But there is always a way for everything. Atm, we are two busy in non-issues.

 

[TalentSpotterPk]

I had always been under the impression that the population of every country grows, some grow faster than the other but I was really shocked to see developed european countries at about the same population that they were at some 50 years ago.

Currently the biggest problem facing us is population, no government can bring us back from the Jahalat we have entered. There is a lecture by "DR" Zakir Naik where he asks the muslims to stop using contraceptions because bachay are Allah kee nehmat. A DOCTOR is saying this.

Nobody has the audacity to ask him that If head of the family, the only earning hand earns 12000 rupees a month and has 8 kids how will he make monthly budget ? How will he be able to provide them optimum nutrition ? Respectable clothing ? How will he provide them education ? How would he afford medicine if they or his wive or he or his old parents got sick ? ?


عوام مسجد میں جائے نہ جائے، مولوی عوام کے دماغ میں گھسا ہوا ہے، قاتل ممتاز قادری کا جنازہ اس بات کا گواہ ہے کہ عوام نے آج بھی مولوی کا پٹا اپنے گلے میں ڈال رکھا ہے، پاکستان میں بے دریغ آبادی کی ایک بڑی وجہ مولوی ہے، اور باقی تمام مسائل کی جڑ آبادی ہے۔۔ مولویوں نے ہمیشہ آبادی کنٹرول کرنے کے اقدامات کی مخالفت کی، عوام کے ذہنوں میں یہ سوچ راسخ کی کہ رزق تو اللہ دیتا ہے، بچے جتنے مرضی پیدا کرکے پھینکتے جاؤ۔۔۔۔ نتیجتاً لوگوں نے اندھا دھند بچے پیدا کئے، کسی کو مکینک کی دوکان پر پھینک دیا، کسی کو ہوٹل پر "چھوٹو" لگا دیا، کسی کو محلے کے متمول گھرانے میں جھاڑو پوچے پر لگا دیا، اس طرح پوری کی پوری نسل تعلیم سے محروم رہ جاتی ہے

 

[Moiza]

Nobody has the audacity to ask him that If head of the family, the only earning hand earns 12000 rupees a month and has 8 kids how will he make monthly budget ? How will he be able to provide them optimum nutrition ? Respectable clothing ? How will he provide them education ? How would he afford medicine if they or his wive or he or his old parents got sick ? ?


عوام مسجد میں جائے نہ جائے، مولوی عوام کے دماغ میں گھسا ہوا ہے، قاتل ممتاز قادری کا جنازہ اس بات کا گواہ ہے کہ عوام نے آج بھی مولوی کا پٹا اپنے گلے میں ڈال رکھا ہے، پاکستان میں بے دریغ آبادی کی ایک بڑی وجہ مولوی ہے، اور باقی تمام مسائل کی جڑ آبادی ہے۔۔ مولویوں نے ہمیشہ آبادی کنٹرول کرنے کے اقدامات کی مخالفت کی، عوام کے ذہنوں میں یہ سوچ راسخ کی کہ رزق تو اللہ دیتا ہے، بچے جتنے مرضی پیدا کرکے پھینکتے جاؤ۔۔۔۔ نتیجتاً لوگوں نے اندھا دھند بچے پیدا کئے، کسی کو مکینک کی دوکان پر پھینک دیا، کسی کو ہوٹل پر "چھوٹو" لگا دیا، کسی کو محلے کے متمول گھرانے میں جھاڑو پوچے پر لگا دیا، اس طرح پوری کی پوری نسل تعلیم سے محروم رہ جاتی ہے

If Muslims started to question their faith leaders then we wouldn't be typical Muslims. Imagine if a learned person says such a thing then what about the local Imams. There is a reason every house in Pakistan has nehmats coming out left, right and centre.

 

[Musakhel]

It's always leftist ideologues wanting to impose their views on the poor, if some poor guy want's to have 5 kids than so be it, Last I checked pakistan was not some welfare state where the rich and middle class are taxed to pay for the poor.

 

[Moiza]

عوام مسجد میں جائے نہ جائے، مولوی عوام کے دماغ میں گھسا ہوا ہے، قاتل ممتاز قادری کا جنازہ اس بات کا گواہ ہے کہ عوام نے آج بھی مولوی کا پٹا اپنے گلے میں ڈال رکھا ہے، پاکستان میں بے دریغ آبادی کی ایک بڑی وجہ مولوی ہے، اور باقی تمام مسائل کی جڑ آبادی ہے۔۔ مولویوں نے ہمیشہ آبادی کنٹرول کرنے کے اقدامات کی مخالفت کی، عوام کے ذہنوں میں یہ سوچ راسخ کی کہ رزق تو اللہ دیتا ہے، بچے جتنے مرضی پیدا کرکے پھینکتے جاؤ۔۔۔۔ نتیجتاً لوگوں نے اندھا دھند بچے پیدا کئے، کسی کو مکینک کی دوکان پر پھینک دیا، کسی کو ہوٹل پر "چھوٹو" لگا دیا، کسی کو محلے کے متمول گھرانے میں جھاڑو پوچے پر لگا دیا، اس طرح پوری کی پوری نسل تعلیم سے محروم رہ جاتی ہے

Summary of our country. Did you write this?

I have come across countless people produce a number of kids under the impression that rizq is right around the corner but sadly their is written through begging. We had a maid in our house for 13 years and last year she got married, within 9 months of marriage she had her first kid and within months she came to us for help as she did not have any money. We tried to help as much as we could but her child is destined to live the same life she lived unless something spectacular happens. I was thinking if even a second of thought is given to how the parent will educate and feed the child.

 

[Moiza]

It's always leftist ideologues wanting to impose their views on the poor, if some poor guy want's to have 5 kids than so be it, Last I checked pakistan was not some welfare state where the rich and middle class are taxed to pay for the poor.

How do you think the government hospitals are run? Have you ever been to a government hospital? Visit PIMS sometime and see the situation, a person dies in the open every 5 mins just because the hospital is running way over capacity. The twin cities have a population of more than 50 million and only 3-4 hospital are there to manage this huge population, so no, please dont make as many kids as you want : )

The same argument I presented above applies to schools, colleges, Unis, jobs, water facilites etc.

 

[Moiza]

How do you think the government hospitals are run? Have you ever been to a government hospital? Visit PIMS sometime and see the situation, a person dies in the open every 5 mins just because the hospital is running way over capacity. The twin cities have a population of more than 50 million and only 3-4 hospital are there to manage this huge population, so no, please dont make as many kids as you want : )

The same argument I presented above applies to schools, colleges, Unis, jobs, water facilites etc.

* 5 Million +

 

[Moiza]

It's always leftist ideologues wanting to impose their views on the poor, if some poor guy want's to have 5 kids than so be it, Last I checked pakistan was not some welfare state where the rich and middle class are taxed to pay for the poor.

And I wasn't informed that producing less kids is considered a leftist thing.

 

[Musakhel]

How do you think the government hospitals are run? Have you ever been to a government hospital? Visit PIMS sometime and see the situation, a person dies in the open every 5 mins just because the hospital is running way over capacity. The twin cities have a population of more than 50 million and only 3-4 hospital are there to manage this huge population, so no, please dont make as many kids as you want : )

The same argument I presented above applies to schools, colleges, Unis, jobs, water facilites etc.

Your faith is weak my freind, If you believe in Allah he will provide for you.

Leftist won't be visiting government hospitals anyway, so please spare us the rant.

 

[Musakhel]

And I wasn't informed that producing less kids is considered a leftist thing.

Well the leftist have been the most efficient in reducing fertility rates, so I don't know who else you could have copied this idea from?

 

[Moiza]

Your faith is weak my freind, If you believe in Allah he will provide for you.

Leftist won't be visiting government hospitals anyway, so please spare us the rant.

I'm definitely a Pakistani leftist from every possible angle and for all my life I have been treated at PIMS. I don't know what you guys think but being left doesn't result in a rain of money. We live the same middle class life like everyone else and get treated at government facilities.

And yes Allah provides but for the street beggars the provision is through begging. I would rather not bring 6 kids into this world who'd end up begging, I'd rather focus on 1 and give him proper education and facilities so that he could turn into an asset and not a liability.

 

[Subaltern]

It's always leftist ideologues wanting to impose their views on the poor, if some poor guy want's to have 5 kids than so be it, Last I checked pakistan was not some welfare state where the rich and middle class are taxed to pay for the poor.

Sorry, poor guy isn't living in his own world on an island like Adam and Eve. or isn't a country to himself. Every human being is subject to social contract. What that social contract is, is always determined by humans.

If a poor guy having 5 kids is a catastrophe for the rest of the people, rest of the people have a valid right to do something about it.

 

[Moiza]

Well the leftist have been the most efficient in reducing fertility rates, so I don't know who else you could have copied this idea from?

Common sense mostly : )

 

[Musakhel]

Sorry, poor guy isn't living in his own world on an island like Adam and Eve. or isn't a country to himself. Every human being is subject to social contract. What that social contract is, is always determined by humans.

If a poor guy having 5 kids is a catastrophe for the rest of the people, rest of the people have a valid right to do something about it.

If you didn't know already outside of leftist on the internet, Pakistan society accepts large families as the norm.

 

[Subaltern]

If you didn't know already outside of leftist on the internet, Pakistan society accepts large families as the norm.

And people in Pakistani society are perfectly justified in wanting to change that norm.

 

[Musakhel]

Common sense mostly : )

It's not common sense it is you being influenced by marxist ideas of reducing population, you din't just one day wake up and say "oh let me fix the population bomb", no you probably read some random article in a left wing paper and decided to become a social justice warrior crying about overpopulation.

 

[Musakhel]

And people in Pakistani society are perfectly justified in wanting to change that norm.

Thankfully we have the mullahs to drown out their voices.

 

[Subaltern]

It's not common sense it is you being influenced by marxist ideas of reducing population, you din't just one day wake up and say "oh let me fix the population bomb", no you probably read some random article in a left wing paper and decided to become a social justice warrior crying about overpopulation.

So ? all that means is, population-reduction, is a well thought out idea, like most well thought-out ideas.

Nobody woke up one fine day and decided to just invent a plane either. Like most good ideas, a lot of thought and a lot of effort are involved.

 

[Hamza_]

Less people are better at all levels.

Even in upper class and joint families there are clashes for property and transfers/business due to alot of possible beneficiaries.

 

[Musakhel]

So ? all that means is, population-reduction, is a well thought out idea, like most well thought-out ideas.

Nobody woke up one fine day and decided to just invent a plane either. Like most good ideas, a lot of thought and a lot of effort are involved.

I fully support leftist agnostics, athiest having less kids, the less of them the better.

 

[Subaltern]

I fully support leftist agnostics, athiest having less kids, the less of them the better.

The less muslim kids, the better too. Its pretty basic logic that less kids of any kinds = more sustainable resource scenario for mankind.
Your religious people are subject to finite resources on this land, last i checked, your mullah isn't manifesting food by praying to Allah out of thin air.

 

[last_knight]

I'm definitely a Pakistani leftist from every possible angle and for all my life I have been treated at PIMS. I don't know what you guys think but being left doesn't result in a rain of money. We live the same middle class life like everyone else and get treated at government facilities.

And yes Allah provides but for the street beggars the provision is through begging. I would rather not bring 6 kids into this world who'd end up begging, I'd rather focus on 1 and give him proper education and facilities so that he could turn into an asset and not a liability.

My school had 2000 students and 50+ teachers and sincere management. The other school in town had 1000 students but 15 teachers and lousy management. Fees was almost same. (20:19)

My school always outdid the rival school in Academics, Sports, Literary and Fine Arts.

Population is not a problem. It's a strength. What it needs is a sincere and honest manager.

The reason for poverty lies somewhere else. In the echelons we can't point finger to, hence we adopt the easier route : Blame the weaker party.

Not that poors are looting the taxpayers money to make us criticise them. And not many of them indulge into street crimes either. Looters are from Elite Class. Ask questions from them.

Having and Planning kids is exclusively private thing. Govts and social activists shouldn't dictate into this. What they should be doing is to ensure transperancy in collection and expenditure of our taxes.

 

[Subaltern]

Having and Planning kids is exclusively private thing. Govts and social activists shouldn't dictate into this. What they should be doing is to ensure transperancy in collection and expenditure of our taxes.

Sorry, but people don't exist independent of each other. We rely on each other as a society and share the same earth. Its just your opinion that it is a private thing, i don't share said opinion.
It is fully within the rights a society to control its population numbers.

 

[MABA]

Your faith is weak my freind, If you believe in Allah he will provide for you.

Leftist won't be visiting government hospitals anyway, so please spare us the rant.

Absolutely hilarious people still say stuff like this. God doesn't seem to be providing for a lot of people in Pakistan so the only other alternative is for human intervention and rigorously promote family planning, unless you want to live in a country with a population density like Bangladesh.

 

[Syed1]

Your faith is weak my freind, If you believe in Allah he will provide for you.

Leftist won't be visiting government hospitals anyway, so please spare us the rant.

LMAO with this sort of mentality Pakistan ka Allah hi hafiz hai.


Lemme quit my job and donate all my savings and sit at home in a constant state of worship, I'm sure my bills will get paid and fridge will get stocked automatically.

 

[JaDed]

What's with this leftist,commie labeling nowadays,just got called one yesterday for posting a view. Population is an issue FGS,Earth is only so much with few resources and its not GOD only that provides.

 

[JaDed]

Well the leftist have been the most efficient in reducing fertility rates, so I don't know who else you could have copied this idea from?

? Mao was a left wing dictator he did anything but control the Chinese population. Its the liberal socialist wing that wants to help families have somewhat control their future and stop burdening the women,are you trolling?

 

[ahmedwaqas92]

Your faith is weak my freind, If you believe in Allah he will provide for you.

Leftist won't be visiting government hospitals anyway, so please spare us the rant.

I love time pass section for classic entertainment like this particular post

Carry on my friend

 

[ExpressPacer]

Your faith is weak my freind, If you believe in Allah he will provide for you.

Leftist won't be visiting government hospitals anyway, so please spare us the rant.

Thanks for this post man. It is so inspiring. Definitely deserves POTW. Today, I will sit at home idle, doing nothing but worshiping the Great Creator and hopefully all my necessities will be provided.

....Dude, that's not how the world works. What age are you in? Population is a huge problem.

 

[ExpressPacer]

More population means more people, more people means more need for land, more need for land means more deforestation, more deforestation means more Global warming and Floods, more global warming and floods mean more people dying of heatstroke and famines.

Long story short, Pakistan has a HUGE population problem and I'm not kidding, I've had many sleepless nights just thinking about it. Like the OP said, it most definitely IS the biggest threat to the country's survival. Pakistan is an already struggling third-world country with only so many resources but at the rate the population is expanding, a few decades down the line, we will be fighting for survival.

The problem is the society. Pakistani's are aggressive and frustrated people and the more of these such people will cause a lot of wars and battles within the country in the race to power. We are a water deficit country and pretty soon, we may be importing water from Afghanistan.

 

[Sidilicious]

Educate a boy, and he will get a job. Educate a girl, and she will educate the whole family.

 

[Musakhel]

Absolutely hilarious people still say stuff like this. God doesn't seem to be providing for a lot of people in Pakistan so the only other alternative is for human intervention and rigorously promote family planning, unless you want to live in a country with a population density like Bangladesh.

LMAO with this sort of mentality Pakistan ka Allah hi hafiz hai.


Lemme quit my job and donate all my savings and sit at home in a constant state of worship, I'm sure my bills will get paid and fridge will get stocked automatically.

I love time pass section for classic entertainment like this particular post

Carry on my friend

Thanks for this post man. It is so inspiring. Definitely deserves POTW. Today, I will sit at home idle, doing nothing but worshiping the Great Creator and hopefully all my necessities will be provided.

....Dude, that's not how the world works. What age are you in? Population is a huge problem.

Actually this type of thinking was prominent among the Pre Islamic Arabs they would kill their children out of fear of poverty, This is the level we have regressed too, Do you guys even Read the Quran? Allah instructs us not to kill children for fear of poverty And Our Prophet(PBUH) said that he does not fear poverty for His Ummah rather That love of this World would result in our failure.

 

[ExpressPacer]

Actually this type of thinking was prominent among the Pre Islamic Arabs they would kill their children out of fear of poverty, This is the level we have regressed too, Do you guys even Read the Quran? Allah instructs us not to kill children for fear of poverty And Our Prophet(PBUH) said that he does not fear poverty for His Ummah rather That love of this World would result in our failure.

Therefore we are not asking these people to kill their children. Looks like you don't understand what we're talking about here. We said the exact opposite, in fact. If someone from a poor family has 10 children, his children will become a burden on the nation. Not only will they be illiterate, malnourished and poor but they will also partake in increasing the population further and making the scenario worse because of their own ineptness - which in the first place started because of their parents.

 

[last_knight]

Sorry, but people don't exist independent of each other. We rely on each other as a society and share the same earth. Its just your opinion that it is a private thing, i don't share said opinion.
It is fully within the rights a society to control its population numbers.

Does the society pay health bills, finance education of kids etc for others. NO

When a society can hide away in times when someone is in a misery, it is not within it's rights to control it's population numbers. Wether you want to marry or not, if u plan for having 2 kids or 8, it's your life it's your choice. I shouldn't be dictating you and vice versa.

Or you meant to say communist socities.

What's this non sense notion of associating European Development indices with population. If that were true, pre 20th century socities would have been more developed than current era. And every next generation should be less developed and poorly managed as compared to the preceding generation. European laws for tax evasion/corruption/crimes are gold standard not because of lesser population but due to sincere and honest managememt.

Well, I am against Mullah Culture and Passive-Acceptance of religiosocial faiths. My view here shouldn't be mistaken for that of Mullahs.

I wonder how many here know about all those experiments on Rabbit uncheckef Growth and Population Hypothesis.

 

[Musakhel]

Therefore we are not asking these people to kill their children. Looks like you don't understand what we're talking about here. We said the exact opposite, in fact. If someone from a poor family has 10 children, his children will become a burden on the nation. Not only will they be illiterate, malnourished and poor but they will also partake in increasing the population further and making the scenario worse because of their own ineptness - which in the first place started because of their parents.

That's not my point also, My original Post was that A poor guy should have his right to as many kids as he wants, without lefties telling him what to do, I mean unless you wan't a communist nation where the state tells you what to do and what not to do.

Pakistan is not a welfare state kids, especially sons are the security old parents need, imagine if the poor guy has only 1 son and he dies at a young age, where else does he have to turn to, the state definitely wont help him.

 

[last_knight]

How do you think the government hospitals are run? Have you ever been to a government hospital? Visit PIMS sometime and see the situation, a person dies in the open every 5 mins just because the hospital is running way over capacity. The twin cities have a population of more than 50 million and only 3-4 hospital are there to manage this huge population, so no, please dont make as many kids as you want : )

The same argument I presented above applies to schools, colleges, Unis, jobs, water facilites etc.

Demand more hospitals.

 

[Subaltern]

Does the society pay health bills, finance education of kids etc for others. NO

Then get your society to pay health bills and finance educations like Canada, Western Europe, Japan, etc.

What's this non sense notion of associating European Development indices with population. If that were true, pre 20th century socities would have been more developed than current era. And every next generation should be less developed and poorly managed as compared to the preceding generation. European laws for tax evasion/corruption/crimes are gold standard not because of lesser population but due to sincere and honest managememt.

That makes no sense whatsoever. UK circa 1920s was more developed than 1880s, UK circa 1980s is more developed than 1920s. We have enough stats to back that assessment.

 

[Moiza]

Demand more hospitals.

And when we run out of land and water and food then what?

 

[Moiza]

My school had 2000 students and 50+ teachers and sincere management. The other school in town had 1000 students but 15 teachers and lousy management. Fees was almost same. (20:19)

My school always outdid the rival school in Academics, Sports, Literary and Fine Arts.

Population is not a problem. It's a strength. What it needs is a sincere and honest manager.

The reason for poverty lies somewhere else. In the echelons we can't point finger to, hence we adopt the easier route : Blame the weaker party.

Not that poors are looting the taxpayers money to make us criticise them. And not many of them indulge into street crimes either. Looters are from Elite Class. Ask questions from them.

Having and Planning kids is exclusively private thing. Govts and social activists shouldn't dictate into this. What they should be doing is to ensure transperancy in collection and expenditure of our taxes.

Pakistani government schools are already running over capacity and students are turned away daily just because there isn't enough space. Many school have 65+ students per class. I don't know about you but I don't see how anyone can get good education in such a populated class.

It's a very stupid idea to keep increasing infrastructure to meet the booming population. It's a much better idea to reduce the burden on the already existing population.

 

[enkidu_]

It's hard to keep the balance. In India many states have now sub-replacement levels of fertility, and those are the economic and cultural vanguards (the likes of Bengal). I think a 2.8-3 rate is good, not too dramatic but not too tragic either (why do you think Germany has absorbed 100 000s of "refugees" ? Not by charity, but because their industrial base will implode in the few decades to come, considering they forgot making babies. Scandinavian social system is also bound to be reformed in the years to come.)

 

[last_knight]

Then get your society to pay health bills and finance educations like Canada, Western Europe, Japan, etc.





That makes no sense whatsoever. UK circa 1920s was more developed than 1880s, UK circa 1980s is more developed than 1920s. We have enough stats to back that assessment.

Apparently 1980s were more populous than 1880s, and also more developed.

First part you got me wrong altogether. Society shouldn't be dictating you for number of your kids.

 

[Musakhel]

It's hard to keep the balance. In India many states have now sub-replacement levels of fertility, and those are the economic and cultural vanguards (the likes of Bengal). I think a 2.8-3 rate is good, not too dramatic but not too tragic either (why do you think Germany has absorbed 100 000s of "refugees" ? Not by charity, but because their industrial base will implode in the few decades to come, considering they forgot making babies. Scandinavian social system is also bound to be reformed in the years to come.)

This is where Pakistan is at at the moment, seriously Fertility rate is falling anyway and unless something Unexpected happens eventually maybe not in our lifetimes the population will stabilize.

 

[Subaltern]

Apparently 1980s were more populous than 1880s, and also more developed.

First part you got me wrong altogether. Society shouldn't be dictating you for number of your kids.

And we are fast approaching the point where greater population IS the reason for lesser development, as we are reaching the limit of the earth's carrying capacity.
Society is a social contract. Society has a right to dictate population numbers, as it impacts society itself.

 

[enkidu_]

This is where Pakistan is at at the moment, seriously Fertility rate is falling anyway and unless something Unexpected happens eventually maybe not in our lifetimes the population will stabilize.

Yes, that's a worldwide trend actually, minus Sub Saharan Africa and some countries ravaged by war (like Afghanistan or Iraq). Contrarily to what may think, even in the Gulf it's ghastly approaching the sub-replacement rate. I've read news on this from Saudi Arabia. Many peoples in fact say that it's the first time in history that humanity as a whole doesn't seem to make children, and world population might "stabilize" at around 9 billions in 2100.

In fact even in Pakistan I guess some groups have more children than others (Sindhis as compared to Urdu speakers), and so the sub groups (Waziristani Pashtuns as compared to Peshawari Pashtuns, etc).

 

[big_gamer007]

I can't believe there are people here who are arguing for having more kids? Of all the threads ever created on PP I would have thought this thread would have been unanimous in everyone's views.. Apparantly not the world lacks common sense even more than I thought..

 

[Musakhel]

It's hard to keep the balance. In India many states have now sub-replacement levels of fertility, and those are the economic and cultural vanguards (the likes of Bengal). I think a 2.8-3 rate is good, not too dramatic but not too tragic either (why do you think Germany has absorbed 100 000s of "refugees" ? Not by charity, but because their industrial base will implode in the few decades to come, considering they forgot making babies. Scandinavian social system is also bound to be reformed in the years to come.)

It's not that women don't want to have kids( maybe not in their 20s, but probably in their early 30s) but men don't want to get married to such women, if men don't want to start families than you have a serious problem.

 

[enkidu_]

It's not that women don't want to have kids( maybe not in their 20s, but probably in their early 30s) but men don't want to get married to such women, if men don't want to start families than you have a serious problem.

That's why government should have socialist policies favouring birthrates even when men/women work (that's nowadays the main reason they don't have children.) Al Qadhafi for instance used to give subsidies with every birth, pay for maternity care, buy a new house/apartment for newly married couple, etc etc it's caliph 'Umar Ibn Al Khattab (ra) who came up with what we'd today call a welfare state.

 

[last_knight]

Pakistani government schools are already running over capacity and students are turned away daily just because there isn't enough space. Many school have 65+ students per class. I don't know about you but I don't see how anyone can get good education in such a populated class.

It's a very stupid idea to keep increasing infrastructure to meet the booming population. It's a much better idea to reduce the burden on the already existing population.

Stupidity is to pay our taxes and not asking govt to invest into welfare of society.

Demand more for whatever you are paying.

We live in a society where govt won't improve the garbage roads but impose a fine for No-Helmet on the context that Helmet protects you in case of accidents. That's what you are advocating. "We can't improve roads and Traffic management, so accidents will continue at same rate. Since we care for your lives, it's mandatory for you to wear Helmets". Now that's what you call stupidity.

"Create non issues" has long replaced "Divide and Rule".

 

[last_knight]

I can't believe there are people here who are arguing for having more kids? Of all the threads ever created on PP I would have thought this thread would have been unanimous in everyone's views.. Apparantly not the world lacks common sense even more than I thought..

Who argued for having more kids ?

Discussion is focused more on dynamics of forcing others to have less kids.