Parallels between the Pakistan v India ODI clashes in Karachi (2004) and Colombo (2023)

[msb314]

Something just popped into my mind and so I thought I’d make a thread about it..

Watching this farce today for some reminded me of the 2004 Samsun series against India.

I clearly recall the first ODI in Karachi for which India blazed away and made 349 (which seemed like 400 today!)

Whilst we were chasing then - our openers got out cheaply and we were reduced to 38/2 after 12 overs. Yes you read that right..

But back Inzammam had a very specific approach.. Inzy still wanted to target one boundary an over to exert pressure on the Indian bowlers. He didn’t give up or go into his shell but kept on attacking and taking some risks whilst still rotating the strike..

The end result was there to see - we made 344 that day which was the highest score whilst chasing at the time.. Inzy couldn’t get us over the line but remains one of the greatest ODI knocks ever..

Now look at today - we are 121/7 in 32 overs chasing 357 and had Rizwan coming in at no. 4 with a goofy smile on his face.

Day and night difference in our mentality and approach..

Please discuss

 

[Marooned]

Not sure what is there to discuss. You see parallels? That's cool I guess.

 

[PakFan2010]

Inzy has more talent in his little toe than Rizwan has in his whole body.

 

[Markhor]

Something just popped into my mind and so I thought I’d make a thread about it..

Watching this farce today for some reminded me of the 2004 Samsun series against India.

I clearly recall the first ODI in Karachi for which India blazed away and made 349 (which seemed like 400 today!)

Whilst we were chasing then - our openers got out cheaply and we were reduced to 38/2 after 12 overs. Yes you read that right..

But back Inzammam had a very specific approach.. Inzy still wanted to target one boundary an over to exert pressure on the Indian bowlers. He didn’t give up or go into his shell but kept on attacking and taking some risks whilst still rotating the strike..

The end result was there to see - we made 344 that day which was the highest score whilst chasing at the time.. Inzy couldn’t get us over the line but remains one of the greatest ODI knocks ever..

Now look at today - we are 121/7 in 32 overs chasing 357 and had Rizwan coming in at no. 4 with a goofy smile on his face.

Day and night difference in our mentality and approach..

Please discuss

I remember that very well. It's in the top 3 ODIs I've seen, and Inzamam's innings was extraordinary.

However that Karachi pitch was very flat with little lateral movement whereas here the ball swung prodigiously.

 

[Swashbuckler]

That was a great match but this was a tough pitch to bat on. And India's bowling now is much stronger, with Bumrah and Siraj. Also Kuldeep, who will end up as our greatest ever spinner, he is destined to.

The 2004 Pakistani team had a clutch middle order.

 

[Cricfan4eva]

Pointless to compare players across eras. But to your larger point about Pakistan's approach, I agree. It seemed as if Pakistan were so caught in the threat of rain that they were trying to protect wickets keeping DLS in mind. But unfortunately for them, that rain threat didn't deliver and overs were not lost and then they aimlessly threw their wickets away.

 

[Justcrazy]

That time Pakistan batting was much stronger , and the pitch was a belter. Inzamam and Younis , Yusuf were at peak .

 

[Devadwal]

That was one of the great match I have ever seen .

 

[jnaveen1980]

I know what Misbah would have done. He would tuk tuk till 47th over and hit 5 or 6 sixes and stay not out. Did three times in a row against India.

 

[SamNJ]

Karachi was flat as pancake. Colombo was more of England like swing.

 

[Major]

Inzy has more talent in his little toe than Rizwan has in his whole body.

Rizwan performs in ICC tournaments, Inzi couldnt

 

[GLORY OF '92]

Rizwan performs in ICC tournaments, Inzi couldnt

Lol Inzi won us a semi single handedly.

 

[Major]

Lol Inzi won us a semi single handedly.

and couldnt do anything in any icc tounrnament there after

 

[msb314]

I know what Misbah would have done. He would tuk tuk till 47th over and hit 5 or 6 sixes and stay not out. Did three times in a row against India.

Misbah is irrelevant to the discussion

 

[Rana]

Something just popped into my mind and so I thought I’d make a thread about it..

Watching this farce today for some reminded me of the 2004 Samsun series against India.

I clearly recall the first ODI in Karachi for which India blazed away and made 349 (which seemed like 400 today!)

Whilst we were chasing then - our openers got out cheaply and we were reduced to 38/2 after 12 overs. Yes you read that right..

But back Inzammam had a very specific approach.. Inzy still wanted to target one boundary an over to exert pressure on the Indian bowlers. He didn’t give up or go into his shell but kept on attacking and taking some risks whilst still rotating the strike..

The end result was there to see - we made 344 that day which was the highest score whilst chasing at the time.. Inzy couldn’t get us over the line but remains one of the greatest ODI knocks ever..

Now look at today - we are 121/7 in 32 overs chasing 357 and had Rizwan coming in at no. 4 with a goofy smile on his face.

Day and night difference in our mentality and approach..

Please discuss

Rizwan is the most village player to represent a Test nation

 

[FearlessRoar]

Thematter of fact is, Yesterday Pakistan didn't even try to chase the target

 

[FearlessRoar]

Wellalage is probably the next big spinner from Srilanka

 

[TheSultan]

Something just popped into my mind and so I thought I’d make a thread about it..

Watching this farce today for some reminded me of the 2004 Samsun series against India.

I clearly recall the first ODI in Karachi for which India blazed away and made 349 (which seemed like 400 today!)

Whilst we were chasing then - our openers got out cheaply and we were reduced to 38/2 after 12 overs. Yes you read that right..

But back Inzammam had a very specific approach.. Inzy still wanted to target one boundary an over to exert pressure on the Indian bowlers. He didn’t give up or go into his shell but kept on attacking and taking some risks whilst still rotating the strike..

The end result was there to see - we made 344 that day which was the highest score whilst chasing at the time.. Inzy couldn’t get us over the line but remains one of the greatest ODI knocks ever..

Now look at today - we are 121/7 in 32 overs chasing 357 and had Rizwan coming in at no. 4 with a goofy smile on his face.

Day and night difference in our mentality and approach..

Please discuss

There are no parallels whatsoever. Inzi and Yousuf timed that chase almost to perfection. The lower middle order (malik, razzi and moin) who were being touted as great all failed.

This time babar couldn’t get bat to ball

 

[Mamoon]

Rizwan performs in ICC tournaments, Inzi couldnt

Who would you pick in your team as a batsman. Inzamam or Rizwan?

I need a simple answer. Just a name please.

 

[Major]

Who would you pick in your team as a batsman. Inzamam or Rizwan?

I need a simple answer. Just a name please.

Rizwan is a keeper batsman. Inzi was an unfit batter.

If there was an ICC tournament, i know for sure Inzamam would nothing and was a walking wicket. Rizwan would atleast perform. Atleast Rizwan ended Pakistan's winless streak against India in a world cup, which Inzi couldnt do as a batsman.

 

[Mamoon]

Rizwan is a keeper batsman. Inzi was an unfit batter.

If there was an ICC tournament, i know for sure Inzamam would nothing and was a walking wicket. Rizwan would atleast perform. Atleast Rizwan ended Pakistan's winless streak against India in a world cup, which Inzi couldnt do as a batsman.

I just need a name please. I don’t need guilty explanations.

Who would you pick in your team as a batsman?

 

[Major]

I just need a name please. I don’t need guilty explanations.

Who would you pick in your team as a batsman?

if you read my post, you can see the name that i gave.

Funny how we all love to go analytic, but when it comes to your favourites than we are suppose to ignore and forget ICC tournaments.

 

[FearlessRoar]

You have to appreciate the ground staff of Colombo stadium for their efforts and patience

 

[msb314]

Who would you pick in your team as a batsman. Inzamam or Rizwan?

I need a simple answer. Just a name please.

How is this relevant to the thread?

 

[msb314]

You have to appreciate the ground staff of Colombo stadium for their efforts and patience

Again, how is this relevant to the thread?

 

[FearlessRoar]

Today Srilankans spinners performance reminded me of Asia Cup Final 2008 which was held in Pakistan. Ajantha Mendis was surprise package and he completely outplayed India.

 

[Rana]

if you read my post, you can see the name that i gave.

Funny how we all love to go analytic, but when it comes to your favourites than we are suppose to ignore and forget ICC tournaments.

So you pick Rizwan over Inzimam in ODI,,,,but then you tell others to grow up when your views are challanged?

 

[TheSultan]

Rizwan performs in ICC tournaments, Inzi couldnt

What like the last ICC tournament?

 

[Mamoon]

How is this relevant to the thread?

How is it not? You juxtaposed the two teams so it’s inevitable that a comparison between some of the individual players will be established.

 

[Mamoon]

if you read my post, you can see the name that i gave.

Funny how we all love to go analytic, but when it comes to your favourites than we are suppose to ignore and forget ICC tournaments.

I have read your post and it is clear that you are scared to admit that you think Rizwan is a better batsman than Inzamam.

Instead, you want others to infer that conclusion from your post. Don’t expect others to do your job for you.

You keep telling us Rizwan did this and that and Inzamam did this and that without simply stating that Rizwan is a better batsman than Inzamam.

You either don’t believe what you are saying (I hope) or you are scared to say what you want to say.

 

[Major]

I have read your post and it is clear that you are scared to admit that you think Rizwan is a better batsman than Inzamam.

Instead, you want others to infer that conclusion from your post. Don’t expect others to do your job for you.

You keep telling us Rizwan did this and that and Inzamam did this and that without simply stating that Rizwan is a better batsman than Inzamam.

You either don’t believe what you are saying (I hope) or you are scared to say what you want to say.

I have already written in my post what i wanted to say.

I know who to choose when there is an icc tournament

 

[msb314]

How is it not? You juxtaposed the two teams so it’s inevitable that a comparison between some of the individual players will be established.

Well I was comparing our intent / approach that day in March 2004 versus yesterday..

 

[msb314]

Today Srilankans spinners performance reminded me of Asia Cup Final 2008 which was held in Pakistan. Ajantha Mendis was surprise package and he completely outplayed India.

Also irrelevant to this thread..

 

[msb314]

There are no parallels whatsoever. Inzi and Yousuf timed that chase almost to perfection. The lower middle order (malik, razzi and moin) who were being touted as great all failed.

This time babar couldn’t get bat to ball

Inzy has more talent in his little toe than Rizwan has in his whole body.

I remember that very well. It's in the top 3 ODIs I've seen, and Inzamam's innings was extraordinary.

However that Karachi pitch was very flat with little lateral movement whereas here the ball swung prodigiously.

That was a great match but this was a tough pitch to bat on. And India's bowling now is much stronger, with Bumrah and Siraj. Also Kuldeep, who will end up as our greatest ever spinner, he is destined to.

The 2004 Pakistani team had a clutch middle order.

That time Pakistan batting was much stronger , and the pitch was a belter. Inzamam and Younis , Yusuf were at peak .

That was one of the great match I have ever seen .

Karachi was flat as pancake. Colombo was more of England like swing.

There are no parallels whatsoever. Inzi and Yousuf timed that chase almost to perfection. The lower middle order (malik, razzi and moin) who were being touted as great all failed.

This time babar couldn’t get bat to ball

Boys bump!

20 years today since that amazing game was played !!

I remember it like it was yesterday

 

[Dr_Bassim]

I have already written in my post what i wanted to say.

I know who to choose when there is an icc tournament

No.

You are going in merry go rounds.

You have to say

"I think Rizwan is a better batsmen than Inzimam".

Its not hard if you truly believe it.

If you still cant say it after 6 months, then you must have difficulty believing it yourself.

 

[Statpadder Inc]

One of the greatest matches ever played, still have fond memories of it

 

[Vikram1989]

Musharraf said" I knew match will be tight once inzi dived for first time"

 

[Mamoon]

An ATG ODI. Pakistan didn’t have a chance when they started the run chase but had the game in the bag before Malik and Moin choked big time.

Moin should have never played that series over Kamran. Kamran by 2004 was a far better WK batsman.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

Amazing how flat pitches are derided constantly in this day and age.


Yet this match was played on the flattest deck I had ever seen until that time.

These are the pitches that ruined old fashioned ODI cricket but somehow folks still think it's a classic.

Too many double standards from cricket fans these days.

 

[sweep_shot]

2004 Pakistan team was obviously far more elite. It had some of the big legends (Inzamam, Moin Khan, Shoaib Akthar, Muhammad Yousuf etc.).

 

[Markhor]

Boys bump!

20 years today since that amazing game was played !!

I remember it like it was yesterday

How time flies by !

Much is said about the Chennai crowd applauding the Pakistan team on their victory lap in 1999 - but I hope people don't forget the Karachi crowd reciprocated by applauding India off the field that day in 2004.

Back then bilateral defeats, especially to India, felt earth shattering.

Nowadays you can lose a bilateral ODI series 0-3 and nobody gives a damn.

 

[WengerOut]

When Bilaterals were treated seriously !! Full strength teams clashing.

 

[Swashbuckler]

How time flies by !

Much is said about the Chennai crowd applauding the Pakistan team on their victory lap in 1999 - but I hope people don't forget the Karachi crowd reciprocated by applauding India off the field that day in 2004.

Back then bilateral defeats, especially to India, felt earth shattering.

Nowadays you can lose a bilateral ODI series 0-3 and nobody gives a damn.

I think Chennai is talked about more because of tense bilateral relations then. Kashmir was burning, cross border shelling at its peak, just a couple of months after that test we had Kargil conflict with casualties running into 1000s.

By 2004 the tensions had eased out more, in 2003 there was a ceasefire agreement, Vajpayee was a peacenik followed by Manmohan Singh that year, and Musharaff too was a changed man from his 1999 self. The series was played in good spirit and animosity between our people was less. I remember it being like this from 2004 till the Mumbai terror attacks. We used to play each other in various sports quite often, cultural exchanges, many Pakistanis worked in Bollywood, came to India as tourists or for medical treatment. I remember Intikhab Alam coaching Punjab in the Ranji trophy, I think the only instance of a foreigner coaching a Ranji side.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Amazing how flat pitches are derided constantly in this day and age.


Yet this match was played on the flattest deck I had ever seen until that time.

These are the pitches that ruined old fashioned ODI cricket but somehow folks still think it's a classic.

Too many double standards from cricket fans these days.

I think this was the time period when pitches transitioned from being balanced to favoring batsmen. So many 300 plus scores in that series, first time I had seen that. Around the same time Australia played a ODI series in SA and scores were similar to the Ind-Pak series. 2003-04 may have been the cut off period where nature of ODI pitches changed drastically and irreversibly against bowlers.

 

[Swashbuckler]

Back then bilateral defeats, especially to India, felt earth shattering.

Nowadays you can lose a bilateral ODI series 0-3 and nobody gives a damn.

Schedule an India vs Pakistan ODI or T20 series now and people will care. Other sides not much, but versus Pakistan losses will hurt like the 2012 series, even if the matches are of little value.

In fact I'd argue that there were so many Indo-Pak bilateral series in the 2000s that it became tough to care about them beyond a point. Both sides would play each other at least 5-6 times every year, even when no bilateral was scheduled. That was overkill.

 

[Nikhil_cric]

I think this was the time period when pitches transitioned from being balanced to favoring batsmen. So many 300 plus scores in that series, first time I had seen that. Around the same time Australia played a ODI series in SA and scores were similar to the Ind-Pak series. 2003-04 may have been the cut off period where nature of ODI pitches changed drastically and irreversibly against bowlers.

Yep. The average scoring rate in ODIs went over 5RPO in 2002 .

But it was after the 2003 World Cup when massive 330 + scored started being scored more often.

 

[msb314]

I think this was the time period when pitches transitioned from being balanced to favoring batsmen. So many 300 plus scores in that series, first time I had seen that. Around the same time Australia played a ODI series in SA and scores were similar to the Ind-Pak series. 2003-04 may have been the cut off period where nature of ODI pitches changed drastically and irreversibly against bowlers.

It is not so much that pitches changed as much as the mindset of batsman that had to change..

Think about it. Inzy, MoYo, Shoaib Malik, YK etc all grew up thinking that 220 was a par score - esp with our bowling attack.

Then on March 2004 on a Karachi afternoon they were asked to chase 350 which is exactly 7 RPO. Unheard of.. yet they still got so close thx to an ATG Inzy innings. It was at the time they highest score whilst chasing..

Flat pitch or no flat pitch it is one of the greatest ODI games ever played

 

[msb314]

Yep. The average scoring rate in ODIs went over 5RPO in 2002 .

But it was after the 2003 World Cup when massive 330 + scored started being scored more often.

Agree - I think the 2003 WC final was the turning point

 

[msb314]

How time flies by !

Much is said about the Chennai crowd applauding the Pakistan team on their victory lap in 1999 - but I hope people don't forget the Karachi crowd reciprocated by applauding India off the field that day in 2004.

Back then bilateral defeats, especially to India, felt earth shattering.

Nowadays you can lose a bilateral ODI series 0-3 and nobody gives a damn.

The skill level and desire to win for both teams that day was simply unmatched. Wonderful cricket played in the right spirit..
On a related note - If we play India in the 2025 CT - it will be epic..

 

[Vikram1989]

I think this was the time period when pitches transitioned from being balanced to favoring batsmen. So many 300 plus scores in that series, first time I had seen that.

I think thats the time when Sehwag,Hayden,Gibbs ,Gilchrist,Gayle,Trescothick etc came in to full force and replaced old school odi openers targeting 250 or 270 plus

One more things is all great bowlers retired at that time.(akram,ambrose,Walsh, Donald etc)

 

[BouncerGuy]

Those days, nobody thought that teams would be scoring more than 300 runs often, time changed and India put up a huge total for Pakistan to chase. I think Pakistan went after that score with all guns blazing because it was something new for both teams so they never knew how it could be chased or defended. It was an epic series in 2004 and then 2006 again.

Nowadays, Pakistan batters are pretty timid. 1 wicket down chasing such a mammoth total and other batters will also follow the other batters towards the dugout. Only Fakhar has the mentality of doing good in big games.